========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 10:39:49 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Frend Bilong Otha Fella! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Denise Regarding the image at http://www.lib.purdue.edu/earhart/images/VIII.G.7.jpg I've seen this before: two palm trees on a headland overlooking the sea, the shape of which encompasses a plane, a ship and an island. (But where the Maltese Cross is, on the horizon, was the setting sun, from memory.) It was on the cover of something - a book or a pamphlet - but I can't place it further than that, although I remembering copying the picture myself as a very young child. This looks similarly like a copy done by a child, although one a lot older than I was. Was it on the cover of a prayer book? A book of psalms? A school text book? Nope! Can't place it. But if I remember, I'll let you know the source. LTM (who didn't encourage copying) Denise ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 10:56:36 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Nei Manganibuka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angus: "Nei Manganibuka" in Fijian renders into something very close to "The Strong Powerful Vagina" ... I imagine it's something very like that in Kiribati. LTM (who was into goddesses) Denise ************************************************************************* From Ric I wonder if the "buka" part is a reference to buka trees. In Gilbertese the prefix "I" (pronounced "EE") means "of". For examlple, I-Kiribati is "people of the Gilberts", and I-Nutiran is "New Zealanders". We know that, according to ancient tradition, Nei Manganibuka came from an island southeast of the Gilberts called Nikumaroro that was covered with buka trees. That's why the first Gilbertese delegation to Gardner with maude and Bevington in October 1937 named the island Nikumaroro. Might Nei Manganibuka be somethng like "Great Vagina of the Bukas"? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 11:02:07 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Nauticos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Lawrence: Someone has close ties to Nauticos on the forum, I forgot who, but what equipment did they use for their deep water search? ************************************************************************** From Ric Anybody have specifics? As far as I know they were planning to use towed-array sonar to sweep the entire target area and then check any "hits" with a camera-equipped ROV. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 11:16:17 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Frend Bilong Mi (Friend Belong Me, My Friend) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Cam Warren And a piano was once described as follows: "Big black box, many white teeth, go bong-bong, make fine music!" Cam Warren *************************************************************************** From Ric That's not Pisin. It may be an English transliteration of a Pisin description of a piano. The problem with Pisin is that it is no one's first language. It's a very simple "trade language" that everybody can use, but its simplicity necessarily makes it cumbersome. For example, the word "bilong", sometimes shortened to "long", signifies the possessive AND all prepositions. A sign on the helicopter ramp at the airport in Port Moresby says: "itambu long stanup clostu long balus" which, of course, means "It is forbidden to stand up close to the bird". Here's a classic example to Pisin practicality. Milk is "susu". A bra is "susu pants". ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 11:17:28 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Nei Manganibuka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson Hi Ric, Perhaps it's a reference to the place of origin, the source of life, or "mother earth". ltm, jon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 15:24:57 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Terms... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Roger Kelley First the Fijian term, " "Nei Manganibuka". Now the Pisin term, "susu pants". What's next? :-) LTM, Roger Kelley ************************************************************************* From Ric Nei Manganibuka is not a Fijian term. It's Gilbertese (I-Kiribati). If I wanted to say "You're confused." in Pisin I'd say, "Yu fela bagarup tu mas." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 15:28:48 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Pidgin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From Pat Gaston I had never thought of Spanish or Portuguese as sources of pidgin, but it makes a lot of sense. "Pickaninny" surely derives from "peque=F1o" (little one) or "peque=F1ito" (= even littler one). In the dialect of Northwest Spain, which produced most of the country's seafaring men, the latter term would be rendered "pequeni=F1o." It's a pretty short trip from there to "pickanniny." "Calaboose" comes from the Spanish "calabozo" (dungeon or jail). Another Spanish term for the slammer is "juzgado" (hoos-GAH-thoh), whence we get "hoosegow." LTM (who needs something to do while waiting for Nauticos' press release) Pat Gaston ************************************************************************* From Ric No need to think of Spanish or Portugese as sources for New Guinea pidgin. They weren't out there. Think Aussie and American slang. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 15:30:02 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Airstrip orientation ... Howland Island MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Charlie Wood Could someone tell me the orientation of the Howland Island airstrip that was awaiting Earhart on her arrival? I'm interested in it in standard aviation usage, i.e., Rwy 10-28, or 9-27. or what ever it happened to be. Of course, if you know the exact magnetic heading of the Rwy, I can use that, too. Thanks for the help. Charlie Wood ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 15:41:33 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Nei Manganibuka and Adamant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Angus Murray Ric, Well thanks Denise for sharing that with us- you learn something new every day with Tighar! On the basis of the name alone I think we can rule AE out as N.M.! And as for your explanation Ric (hang on I'm just trying to get back on my chair) - your reputation as a vendor of outrageous speculation has just been seriously enhanced! On another topic, I am in communication with an ex crew member of HMS Adamant. Do you have a copy of the crew pic you can e-mail. Hopefully we can see if at least this part of the story checks out. As far as I can tell she was based in Ceylon and western Australia at Freemantle and a Pacific tour seems unlikely. Of course its possible that AE & Co accidentally flew on a reciprocal heading and we should be looking in the Indian ocean somewhere. Itasca must have picked up that far flung harmonic again. Regards Angus. *************************************************************************** From Ric <> Whad I say?? We never had a "crew pic". The photo that was said to show members of the crew was taken from a launch about two hundred yards off a tropical beach where a couple dozen guys are hanging about in shorts. I don't know how you'd recognize anybody. We checked Adamants logs at the PRO back in 1989 and we have her movements from June 1945 to Dec 1947 after which she returned to England. In July and August of '46 she was in the Solomons but never went east of there. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 14:34:57 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Nauticos Press Release MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Dow That's a good point. Where is the Nauticos press release? Has anyone seen anything in any of the newspapers anywhere? Nothing in Kansas City....yet. Would be interesting to hear the official story. Carol Dow ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 14:36:47 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Airstrip orientation ... Howland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From RC > From Charlie Wood > > Could someone tell me the orientation of the Howland Island airstrip that was > awaiting Earhart on her arrival? RC Sez ... measured from Sheet No 1198 Islands in the Pacific USN 1945: Three strips are shown. True bearings and length in feet are: 043/223 usable length, approx. 3100' 090/270 2400' 169/349/ 6300' Var. 9deg. 24 min East [East is Least ...] RC ************************************************************************** From Randy jacobson In the official report to the Bureau of Air Commerce, the map indicates three runways: NE/SW 3023' length N/S 3200' E/W 2440' These were the only directional markings, other than a rose compass on the map. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 14:37:34 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Air Miles Lae - Howland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom Strang Forum: With GPS technology in mind - What is the actual air mileage between Lae and Howland Island? Resectfully: Tom Strang ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 14:44:32 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Nei Manganibuka and Adamant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Angus Murray Ric, > Whad I say?? Sorry - but I fell about laughing at your interpretation of the meaning of Nei Manganibuka. Maybe you're right, but where the buka trees come into the picture is difficult to imagine. A strange coincidence about the wreck photo story is that the USS Bushnell was also a submarine tender. Makes one wonder about conspiracy theories again. By 1946 she was renamed and took part in the Bikini atoll tests. She was certainly in the Pacific in 46. Did they stop off at Gardner, their old stomping ground and discover the electra wreckage? Or did they call in at Mili and find it there? Gardner is not exactly en route from Oahu to Bikini but there were various exercises in operation. Of course AE may have landed on Bikini. The ship did spend some time at the island before the test, taking data. If so there won't be much left of the electra now. The ship was only 19 miles from the bomb when it detonated. I'm not suprised they wanted to have some sand on hand. I've seen some of the ships logs but not all. Those I saw gave no clue. The crew pic might give some clues as to whether the crew were Brits or not, even if no-one is identifiable. However, if Tighar doesn't have it there's not much we can do. Regards Angus. ************************************************************************* From Ric All we have is a very muddy photocopy of the photo of the guys on the beach. How do you tell if a guy in dark shorts is a Brit or not? (Somebody is sure to have a good punch line for that one.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 14:47:07 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Frend Bilong Mi (Friend Belong Me, My Friend) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Kerry Tiller > From Ric > > Here's a classic example to Pisin practicality. Milk is "susu". A bra is > "susu pants". In what language is "susu" milk? Motu? I ask, because in Visayan (Cebuano and Ilongo anyway - languages of the Central Philippines), "susu" means Breast. The Tagalog (central Luzon/Manila) word is "dibdib". The only word I ever heard for milk anywhere in the Philippines was "gatas". Two very different cultures having the same word with a related meaning intrigues me. I spent a little time in Papua New Guinea (Port Moresby, Lae and Rabaul) but not long enough to catch any of the native languages. Those all being coastal towns with Burns Philps everywhere, I did hear a great deal of pidgin. Not hard at all to understand after awhile. LTM (and, no, I am NOT going to make a reference here to her susu pants) Kerry Tiller *************************************************************************** From Ric <> Dunno, but I agree that it's interesting. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 14:51:49 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Nei Manganibuka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Denise Ric, you say "I wonder if the "buka" part is a reference to buka trees", yes, at a guess, it would be, but the word would be used more metaphorically, as a reference would be to the qualities those trees are thought to possess. LTM (who liked quality trees) Denise ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:05:09 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Air Miles Lae - Howland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Frank Wolfe I get 2556 miles from Lae to Howland on my GPS -- I would like to know the status of the recent search conducted by Nautico. Frank Wolfe Wolfe1@ktc.com *************************************************************************** From Ric I posted this on April 27: Sorry I can't divulge the source for the following but let's just say it is very reliable. Nauticos has concluded its deep water search and has found nothing of significance. They were at sea for 35 days and searched an undisclosed portion of their targeted area. There were numerous equipment problems. They are eager to go back but will need to raise more money. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 15:34:01 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Nauticos Press Release MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Al Jeffries Carol asks: <> Try searching using google, ask jeeves or yahoo Al Jeffries ************************************************************************** From Ric If and when Nauticos issues a press release I would think that it will appear with their other press releases on the Nauticos website at http://www.nauticos.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:28:56 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Adamant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Angus Murray From Ric > > All we have is a very muddy photocopy of the photo of the guys on the beach. > How do you tell if a guy in dark shorts is a Brit or not? (Somebody is sure > to have a good punch line for that one.) I would imagine that as service personnel they would be wearing service issue shorts. Presumably these did differ from American garb in length colour etc. As far as I was aware both navies would be wearing white shorts but perhaps someone can confirm or deny this. Angus. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:30:32 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Airstrip orientation ... Howland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Charlie Wood Thank you Randy and RC for the great Rwy info. I did learn after posting (from Long's book) that there were 3 Rwys on Howland. I subtracted out the Mag Var, converted to closest Rwy hdgs, and came up with: 3/21 ... presumably "the NE/SW" Rwy, 8/26 ... presumably the "E/W" Rwy, 16/34 ... presumably the "N/S" Rwy. I was struck by the 6300 ft length for 169/349 vs 3200 ft length listed in the Bureau of Air Commerce doc. Gee, a 6300 ft strip for an Electra? ...Amelia wouldn't have believed her eyes. Oh well, when GIs are doing the work, cost is no object. Gotta love the mag var in units less than a degree. Let's see, prob the compass/DG was marked every five degrees. Mag Var = E 9 deg, 24 min ... I love the memory aid , "East is Least" ... my favorite, though, don't know why since I live on the US East coast, is "Easterners are Odd" for the hemispheric altitude rule. That Californian is probably still chuckling over his creation. Does anyone know if the referenced "Sheet no 1198 "Islands in the Pacific, USN 1945" might be posted on the Internet somewhere available for download? Thanks again for the great help Charlie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:33:42 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Frend Bilong Mi (and her susu pants, too) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Marjorie in Montana I loved the "susu pants" for bra, too, and can't resist mentioning that the word my Chamorro-Saipanese maid used for breast was "sisu." Although we left Saipan before my daughter was two, at three she collapsed in hysterical laughter on a street corner in San Francisco when I pointed out my neighborhood seafood store to my mother. "A sisu store?" she screeched. "You can buy sisu in a store?" LTM (who's probably still wondering 30 years later about her granddaughter's weird sense of humor) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:35:04 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Mother Tongue! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Denise Kerry asks: In what language is "susu" milk? The answer to that one, Kerry, is pretty much all of them. It's one of the big commonly used nouns - like those for water, boat, spirit, devil, ghost, garden, anchor, fish - for the entire region. So, there you go, the entire she-bang of the Polynesian, Melanesian and Micronesian Islands use a variation of susu (like suthu, sutu, sucu) as the word for milk and it makes you wonder if it's in anyway descended from an Indo-Arayan stock word behind our words "suck" and "succour". LTM (herself a great succourer) Denise ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:36:32 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: PURDUE BECOMES AMELIA EARHART CLEARINGHOUSE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Rod extract from AOPA ePilot -- Vol. 4, Issue 18 PURDUE BECOMES AMELIA EARHART CLEARINGHOUSE Purdue University this week became the largest repository for all things Amelia Earhart. Thanks to a gift of nearly 500 of Earhart's personal papers and memorabilia from her family, the school now stores the most comprehensive collection of materials related to her life, career, and mysterious disappearance. Many of the artifacts have not been seen by the public. Earhart, who disappeared over the Pacific in 1937, served as a visiting instructor at Purdue, starting in 1935. The announcement of the contribution this week also kicked off the school's "Countdown to 100 Years of Flight" celebration that honors the Wright brothers. Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:37:10 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Susu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Peter <> Susu is the Malay word for milk. LTM, Peter. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 16:53:53 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Howland airstrip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Sherman *** RC replies: > I subtracted out the Mag Var, converted to closest Rwy hdgs, >and came up with: > 3/21 ... presumably "the NE/SW" Rwy, > > 8/26 ... presumably the "E/W" Rwy, > > 16/34 ... presumably the "N/S" Rwy. *** You got that right! > I was struck by the 6300 ft length for 169/349 vs 3200 ft length listed in > the Bureau of Air Commerce doc. Gee, a 6300 ft strip for an Electra? *** I measured the length of the proposed runways [cleared strips ...] & rounded down to 6300 ft. There may well have been some geo features that did not allow the full length. > Gotta love the mag var in units less than a degree. Let's see, prob the > compass/DG was marked every five degrees. Mag Var = E 9 deg, 24 min ... *** They measured and so noted. The users can round as they please. 9 degrees is O.K. for flt. planning; at my arm chair, it is a N-S runway. > ... "Easterners are Odd" ... *** I'll buy that. > Does anyone know if the referenced "Sheet no 1198 "Islands in the Pacific, > USN 1945" might be posted on the Internet ...for download? *** I'll send you a copy if you like .. Need address. rcsherm@att.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 08:35:49 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Howland airstrip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Herman Bob, Should 169/349 been read as a RWY 17/35 ? Would make things easier to understand. 6,300 ft was a lot of runway for 1937 ! Average length tended to be 3,000 ft. I flew in the Electra (L10A). Take off with a full load (full power at 2,300 RPM and 36.5 inches of mercury) takes 2,200 feet, which is covered in 20 seconds. Herman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 08:36:46 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Air Miles Lae - Howland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Suzanne Astorino: Since this topic is up, here are the actual figures that AE used: http://www.lib.purdue.edu/earhart/images/IX.C.8.jpg (file size = 989kb) Description: Flight Analysis Data Sheet from Howland Island to Lae It has the exact same figure as Frank Wolfe gets on his GPS, 2556! LTM, who never once burned her susu pants! Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 09:30:59 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric The new TIGHAR Tracks will be mailed to members later this week and will show how documents and maps from the Kiribati archives help explain some of the features we see at the Seven Site. For example, it now appears that a series of shallow depressions not far from the lagoon shore are probably the result of an experimental 1941 coconut planting done at Gallagher's direction to see if that part of the island would support agricultural development. The experiment eventually failed, but it may explain why at least the lagoon-side portion of the site was maintained at least until 1949 when a British official (Lands Commissioner P.B. Laxton) was shown the site and described cleared underbrush and a "house built for Gallagher". The next TIGHAR Tracks will review what we've learned about the artifacts and animal remains that were collected during Niku IIII. They tell a fascinating, if still somewhat puzzling, story. One of the artifacts in particular - 2-6-S-45 "The Knob" - has proven to be especially interesting. Scanning Electron Microscope analysis by the U.S. Naval Academy Nondestructive Testing Laboratory in Annapolis, Maryland has determined that the knob is a lead casting around a steel insert. The face of the knob has raised letters and numbers. Cleaning in water with ultrasound has confirmed the presence of the word "PATENT" followed by two letters that are probably "ED", so the full word is probably "PATENTED". Two smaller figures are probably "no." standing for "number" and then there is what appears to be a seven digit string of numbers beginning with "18". It could be a United States utility patent issued between 1931 (when 1,800,000 was issued) and 1933 (when 1,900,000) was issued. The knob is similar in size and general appearance to adjustment knobs on aeronautical sextants, for which there were many, many patents issued during this general period. The artifact is presently at the Photek Forensic Imaging laboratories in Portland, Oregon where Jeff Glickman and his associates will try to pull up more of the numbers using X-ray and CAT-scan technology. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:53:55 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: British patent research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric Tom King notes that the phrase "PATENTED" followed by the number somehow sounds more British than American. I wonder if the seven digit number makes any sense as a British patent. What say Her Majesty's Own Forumites (HMOF)? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:50:31 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: British patent research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From JHam 2128: Re British patent numbers. Ifland's book on celestial navigation has a select list of patents related to sextants. Some of the British patent numbers and dates listed are: # 17,840 - 1909 # 10,949 - 1914 # 26, 764 - 1896 # 11,753 - 1903 # 5,960 - 1905 I don't see a pattern and he didn't list any more modern British patents related to bubble sextants. I would think there are some. However, it doesn't look like the patent numbers would be in the millions in any case. If the number on the knob has a comma and is in the hundred thousands, then maybe. blue skies, jerry **************************************************************************** From Phil Tanner It seems from the Patent Office web site - see http://www.patent.gov.uk/patent/history/oldnumbers/after1916.htm - that British patents only reached seven digits in 1966. Assuming the versions on the web site are exactly as rendered in patent marks, they are all prefaced by the letters GB. Numbering started at 100,001in 1916 and by 1936 had reached 439,856. ltm Phil GB2276 *************************************************************************** From Simon Ellwood #2120 > Tom King notes that the phrase "PATENTED" followed by the number somehow > sounds more British than American. As a Brit, it doesn't sound gramatically correct to me to follow the word "PATENTED" with a patent number. Maybe it's a date, or a phrase like "PATENTED IN ENGLAND............." ? >I wonder if the seven digit number makes > any sense as a British patent. According to the UK patent office's web site, there are seven digit codes, but only after 1965. Before then, six digits from the current system's inception in 1916 until. LTM Simon Ellwood #2120 *************************************************************************** From Ric Thank you gentlemen. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:56:06 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: British patent research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Lawrence: I guess from all this patend stuff is that you wish to find a link to Captain Fred Noonan. I believe that we know what the Captain owned, navigational wise, is there a possibility? ************************************************************* From Ric The only sextant that we know Noonan owned is in the museum in Pensacola. We do not know what kind of navigational equipment he owned or used on the Earhart flight. Therefore, whatever we find out about the knob I see no way to conclusively link it to Earhart or Noonan and thus there does not appear to be any potential for the knob to be a "smoking gun". ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:06:56 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: New Description of Final Take Off at Lae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jerry Jurenka For the Forum - Dear Ric: This just came to me on the back cover of The Zontian, the official publication of Zonta International. While you are probably familiar with Alan Board's photos, I did not want to take the chance that you are not. The description of the takeoff in the last paragraph is unique to anything I have read before. I include the article in its entirety. Jerry Anne Jurenka Last Photos of Amelia Earhart When Alan Board, an employee of Guinea Airways and amateur photographer, took photos of Amelia Earhart at Lae (New Guinea) airstrip just before her takeoff, chances are he knew he was witnessing history but probably didn't realize he was making history. Board's photos were among the last taken of the pioneer aviator. This past spring, Board's son, John, donated three of these photos to Zonta International and to Zonta District 24. Headquarters staff is currently working on a display to highlight these important historical images. Here is the description that Alan Board wrote on the back of one of the photos on 2 July 1937: Final Take Off, Lae 1937 Now almost at ocean end of strip. No choice but to continue. Plane jumped over slightly raised road at ocean end and almost pancaked on water. Not sure if props actually touched water, but two lines of spray followed plane for possibly miles. For about 20 miles the plane was not gaining height. *************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Jerry. Very interesting. We've had Alan Board's photos for a couple of years now but I received them electronically and so we don't have any information about notations on the back. A note written by the photographer on or near the time of the event is pretty good documentation. Other accounts describe the airplane settling after takeoff and flying very close to the water until it was out of sight. It seems clear that the thing was so heavy that it would only fly in "ground effect" until some fue had been burned off. Talk about "pucker factor"..... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:50:17 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Quick Query Comments: To: denisenkeith@beyond.net.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << Scott West? Was he the "back seat man" on any of the Lexington's search planes for A.E.? >> Could be. I don't know. Anyway, if he was aboard the Lexington he didn't see anything but the sea. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:56:27 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Pucker factor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee Ric said: "Other accounts describe the airplane settling after takeoff and flying very close to the water until it was out of sight. It seems clear that the thing was so heavy that it would only fly in "ground effect" until some fuel had been burned off. Talk about "pucker factor"....." It also speaks to AE's piloting skills. Ground effect on the 10E is what? -- four or five feet? So those prop tips would be just inches, at best, above the water. Trying to hold that altitude for several miles go way beyond pucker factor; I think you're just entered the "Oh, baby don't fail me now -- PAH-LEEEEAZE!," realm. LTM, whose best puckering days are behind her Dennis O. McGee #0149EC **************************************************************************** From Ric As I recall, ground effect is half the wingspan. The wingspan of an Electra is 55 feet so it might not be quite a tight as you imagine but it would certainly get your attention. Did I ever tell you about the time.......no, let's not start one of those rounds. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 13:17:00 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Al Jeffries More about patents: It may be the US patent office changed form "patent" to "patented" as some time during the time period in question. Note too the actual use of an patented object may be hidden in obscure phaseology i. e. "Cylindrical wooden object filled in its center with a material capable of making a visible mark" is a pencil. The Patent and Trademark Office's website is easily searchable back to 1790. Further, the sextant may have been patented as a design patent. Al Jeffries *************************************************************************** From Ric Wouldn't it be up to the manufacturer to decide whether to say PATENT or PATENTED? The Patent and Trademark Office's website is easily searchable if you have the patent number. Searching by category is a lot trickier and there were many, many patents issued in the early 20th century relating to sextants . U.S. design patents are still only six digit numbers. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:11:38 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mark in Horse Country Yes, according to both the US and British patent office, it's up to the manufacturer how to mark the object being patented. They simply do not regulate this area. I'm pretty sure the only requirement is that it *be* marked in some fashion, but the wording is up to the manufacturer. In addition, it is not possible to rely on the "GB" designation to infer British patent holding unless the object is intended for international sales. Again, using the "GB" *on the object* is up to the manufacturer. A third complication (at least in British use) is that prior to granting of the patent, some manufacturers print the filing number of the application as evidence that the patent has been applied for. This number would not match the later-assigned patent, although I believe it is recorded. I'm afraid that without the patent number, it would be very difficult to show what the object was (or was attached to) through the patent offices. Unless, of course someone out there has a LOT of time on his/her hands... More likely, we could prove the reverse... For example, Ludolph (or their knob suppliers) never marked their knobs with patent numbers in that particular format, therefore this knob did not come from a Ludolph sextant. (Of course, I don't KNOW that - it's just a hypothetical example). LTM, - Mark in Horse Country (Most of the above info comes from correspondence with the USPTO and BPTO, BTW...) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 16:11:11 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: British patent research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Angus Murray Ric, "Patented" in Britain is not usually followed by the patent number and tends to be more descriptive of the goods as something worth patenting. I have a 1938 Jaguar oil filter housing marked "( Pat no. 377715 ie 6 digits). This patent was established in about 1932 from memory. Pat xxxxxx is also common ( ie without the No.) The GB prefix is something I don't remember seeing quoted as a part of the patent number. ************************************************************************** From Ric "Patented" as merely a statement rather than being followed by a number also rings true to me. However, there are definitely two something-or-others immediately following PATENT (i.e. PATENTXX) and if they're not the letters "ED" I can't imagine what they would be. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 08:49:07 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Frank Wolfe I have been reading your discussion about sextants. Bo McNeely, told me that Fred used an Octant borrowed from the Navy. Frank Wolfe ************************************************************************** From Ric That would probably be the Pioneer Bubble Octant #12-36 that Harry Manning borrowed just prior to the first attempt. Harry was a Lt. Cdr. in the Naval Reserve and so had the connections. The instrument came from the Naval Aviation unit at North island, San Diego. After the wreck in Hawaii, Harry quit the project and Fred signed for the Navy instrument, promising to return it to North Island at the conclusion of the Earhart flight. Bo was with AE and Fred in Miami so his impression, as expressed to you, that Fred used the Navy instrument would seem to be an indication (but, of course, does not prove) that he did not replace it with something else in the interim. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 08:57:41 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: New Forum Subscriber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From James Nason Hello, Just thought I'd introduce myself. I'm James Nason, 20, from Basildon, Essex in the UK. I'm not particularly a fan of AE but after watching a film this afternoon ("Amelia Earhart: The Final Flight Tue 7 May, 1:10 pm - 2:40 pm 90mins Drama based on the events surrounding the celebrated aviation pioneer's fateful flight over the Pacific in 1937, from which she never returned. Starring Diane Keaton and Rutger Hauer. [1994] www.bbc.co.uk") I have become interested in the disappearance of her, Fred Noonan and the aircraft. Mysteries seem to attract me , I have long been interested in the 'Jack the Ripper' murders in Whitechapel London during 1888 and would now like to learn more about this mystery. I seem to remember (I think I do...) a documentary a few years back about the subject. I can't find anything about it on the TIGHAR website but in this documentary a search was made of an island where a crashed aircraft was found. I can't remember whether they decided it was the Amelia's Electra or not, maybe someone can tell me either way. I'd also like to know what happened to George Putnam after Amelia's disappearance, just out of interest. Anyway, hope I haven't waffled on to much, Cheers James ****************************************************************************Fr om Ric Welcome James. If you like mysteries you've picked a doozy. You'll want to read as much of the material on the TIGHAR website as you can stomach. That island you saw on the documentary will soon start to seem like your back garden. For a good history of what happeend to George Putnam after his wife went missing you might read "The Sound of Wings: The Life of Amelia Earhart" by Mary Lovell (St. Martin's Press, 1989). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:38:50 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Octants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee Ric said: "That would probably be the Pioneer Bubble Octant #12-36 that Harry Manning borrowed just prior to the first attempt." Do any of the Forumites know of a web site or such where we could go to get a look at a Pioneer Bubble Octant just to see what one looks like? LTM, who avoids the bubbly Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ************************************************************************ From Ric Doug Brutlag has an Army Air Corps A-7 WWII vintage bubble octant but I've never seen a photo of an early Pioneer Bubble Octant. One never knows what may be lurking on ebay. The following treatise by antique sextant expert Peter Ifland (written way back in 1997) provides some background: In the early 1930s, Pioneer Instrument Division of Bendix Aviation, produced a civilian model aircraft bubble sextant that closely resembled the military models. The one example I have in my collection, now at the Mariners' Museum, reads on the plaque on the instrument: "Octant Type 3004A Serial 246 Pioneer Instrument Division of Bendix Aviation Corporation, Bendix, New Jersey U.S.A.". The numbers on this sextant bear some relationship to the numbers stenciled on your box - 3500 and 1542. Could the first two digits in this civilian notation refer to the year of production? My instrument comes in a green painted wooden box but my notes do not indicate any stenciling on the box. (I will check this point with Mariners'.) My instrument appears to be the same model as the instrument Lindbergh used in his 1933 survey flights for Pan Am. It is likely that Pan Am transoceanic navigators would be familiar with this type instrument. Generally, navigation instruments belonged to the Company (in this case, Pan Am) but individual navigators may well have owned one for their personal use. As to other manufacturers during the 1930s: The only other US manufacturer that I know of during this era was Brandis and Son of Brooklyn, NY. They seemed to have a lock on the Navy's business while Pioneer had the Army's business. Brandis produced conventional marine sextants, sometimes with bubble artificial horizon attachments that were used in the air. One of these, now in the Smithsonian Air and Space collection, is a Navy MkI sextant with a military serial number "40-31". I've never seen a conventional aircraft bubble sextant from Brandis but they may have made some. Of course, many other manufactures came on stream in the late 1930's to supply the military as part of the war build up. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:50:28 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: New Forum Subscriber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From James Are there any good books on the search I should keep an eye out for? James *************************************************************************** From Ric TIGHAR's senior archaeologist Dr. Tom King, in collaboration with three other TIGHAR researchers (Dr. Karin Burns our Forensic Osteologist; Dr. Randy Jacobson our Oceanographer; and Kenton Spading, an archival research specialist) wrote a book about TIGHAR's search as an independent project. It's called "Amelia Earhart's Shoes" and was published by AltaMira Press in 2001. It's available from Amazon.com or directly from the publisher at http://www.altamirapress.com/Catalog/SingleBook.shtml?command=Search&db=^DB/CA TALOG.db&eqSKUdata=0759101302 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:54:42 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Present Airport at Lae, New Guinea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Charlie Hello All, Is there presently an airport at Lae, New Guinea? If so, can someone tell me its current official name? I've searched the Internet for "Lae Airprot" without success. Thank you very much. Charlie ************************************************************************** From Ric << I've searched the Internet for "Lae Airprot" without success.>> I'll refrain from the obvious smartass comment. The strip used by Earhart was recently closed and replaced by a bigger airport farther from town. I don't recall the name of the new facility. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:22:21 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: New Airport at Lae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Phil Tanner The new Lae airport is called Nadzab LTM Phil Tanner 2276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:24:34 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Octants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From JHam 2128 Re Pioneer bubble octants. Weems has photos of a Bureau of Standards model D (made by Bausch & Lomb) and a Pioneer octant, pages 307 and 308 respectively, in his Air Navigation book, second edition, 1938. They give you the general idea, but details are fuzzy. blue skies, jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:25:33 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: New Airport at Lae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Charlie Hi Phil, Nadzab ... of course ... with such a common-place name as that how come I couldn't come up wiith it? :)) Help much appreciated. Charlie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 16:04:04 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Yahoo! Groups - Sextants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Christopher Ferro: There is a Sextant group on Yahoo! Groups that seems to be at least somewhat active. I am a member of the group, though I can't remember WHY I ever joined. I did a quick search of their archives for "Amelia Earhart" and "Earhart" and "Noonan" and came up empty. That leads me to conclude that no one from TIGHAR or this forum has posted there. Just thought I would pass it along if anyone wants to see if they have anything or are anyone useful for us. I personally don't have the time. It is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/Sextants I think. LTM (Who could come up with a more eloquent last sentence), Christopher (reeling in Wheeling) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 08:57:09 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Octant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Gary LaPook To learn about the Pioneer octant ( which is the same as an A-5) go to: http://www.geocities.com/fredienoonan/octant.html ************************************************************************* From Ric Thanks Gary. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 09:02:51 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: More Earhart Airport info requested MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Charlie Hello Again, Learned Nadzab is the current Lae Papua New Guinea airport, but evidentally not the location that Earhart left from for Howland Island (too far from the ocean). Can someone please help me with the lat/long coordinates of the 1937 Lae Airport and its runway orientation + length? I'm looking for the same information for Caripito, Venezuela. i.e., the lat/long coordinates of the Caripito Airport and its runway orientations + lengths? Even partial information would be helpful. Many thanks in advance. Charlie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 11:20:53 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: New weather information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric, I just received this from a gentleman by the name of Jack Clark in Australia. His letter came as part of a PDF file showing the original documents to which he refers. *************************************************************************** Dear Ric, I have been researching the disappearance of Amelia Earhart & Fred Noonan for some 5 years. About a year ago I discovered the Tighar web site and have since been following the activity and learning a lot. I now believe I have some data that may be of interest and possibly clarify a couple of points. The data is the rainfall figures for Lae 1937. Obtained from the Australian Bureau of Meteorology (the only relevant data they have) and the weather records for Ocean Is.(O degrees 52 mills. S 169 degrees 35 mills. E) for 2nd. July 1937, 0800/2000 hrs. Zone time. 2100 1st. July/0900 2nd July GCT obtained from the British Met. Office, National Meteorological Archives, Bracknell, UK. The interest in this information is, I think, that the rainfall figures for July 2nd show a rainfall of 43.9mm.(1.7 ins) followed by 36.3mm (1.4in). on the 3rd.(Amelia was very lucky to get away at all on the 2nd.). This large build up of approaching cloud I feel is the reason she took a SE course, initially, instead of a NE. course and climbed to 10000 ft. in order to avoid it. The weather at Ocean Island is significant because the second observation of the day at 2000 hrs Local Zone time was only some 3 hrs. prior to Amelia passing approx.75 nautical miles south of the island (allowing average ground speed of 115 kts.) The significant weather at 2000 hrs. Zone time is given as Wind (surface) NE. force 4 Beaufort Scale which equates to 13 to 18 mph (11.2 to 15.6 kts.). The wind speed reading on the attached copy is unreadable in the fold of the Log Book but I have rechecked with the Bracknell Met Office & they have checked the Log and the speed was force 4. Cloud at that time was zero. There had been 1/10 of Cumulus at the 0800 Zone time observation, coming from the East indicating winds aloft as Easterly. Weather between the observations is given as broken cloud (bc), at the 2000 hrs observation it is given as blue sky (b). The weather diary for the day shows Fine and Clear. The significance of this report is it shows that Fred Noonan would have had opportunity to make celestial observations, a fact which some researchers seem to think may not have been possible. Regarding the 0518 position report. This has to be a Local Noon position sighting. Checking the http://mach.usno navy.mil US Navy web-site and going to Data Services I Position of Sun & Moon IAltitude & Azimuth for one day, and entering the Lat. Long.coordinates, date and time zone (10 hrs East) shows this to be so, and relates approximately to where one would expect the aircraft to be after two hours flight on a SEcourse. This noon sighting is mentioned as a possibility in Elgin & Marie Long's book:" Amelia Earhart: The Mystery Solved." Simon & Schuster 1999. (page 17). This noon sighting is a routine check made by navigators as it gave them an accurate Latitude. If the above weather/rainfall data I have given is passed on or displayed in any form it is subject to copyright by the two Met offices involved. In the case of the rainfall data The Australian weather bureau requires the Bureau always be acknowledged as the source of the original data and it not be used for Commercial purposes. If the data is presented in any other form-graphics etc. the presenter must indicate that they are responsible for any repackaging of the material but the original source was the Bureau. For the Ocean Island data the source should be acknowledged to The Met Office,National Meteorological Archive, Bracknell UK. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 11:36:07 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Nauticos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Dow Ric, Nauticos didn't put out a press release when they left, and they didn't put out a press release when they came back to port (after all the hoopla). Nobody has anything on them (except Tighar). I can't find anything from anyone's newspapers. How do they expect to raise funds....such being the case. Goofy, that's what it is. Carol Dow #2524 **************************************************************************** From Ric Oh, I dunno. If you were a company that liked to say that it had never failed to find what it was looking for, what would you do? Amelia who? Maybe they'll get around to putting out a press release. Maybe not. At this point it hardly matters. Two professional deep sea technology companies have now tested Elgen Long's hypothesis at a total cost of something over two million dollars and have not found the airplane. That doesn't mean it's not down there but I suspect that it does mean that Crashed & Sank as a testable theory has crashed and sunk. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:23:36 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Nauticos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Herman De Wulf (2406) This is an answer to Carol Dow's question. Nauticos' silence can be compared to what happens in the airline business. When airlines launch a new service to some new destination they want everyone to know and do so with a lot of fanfare, balloons, an orchestra playing at the gate when the inaugural flight departs and press releases. When they discover the route doesn't pay they stop the service quietly without fanfare, balloons, orchestra and certainly without a press release. LTM **************************************************************************** Ric said: "Two professional deep sea technology companies have now tested Elgen Long's hypothesis at a total cost of something over two million dollars and have not found the airplane." Same could be said about us also, right? Ric also said: "That doesn't mean it's not down there but I suspect that it does mean that Crashed & Sank as a testable theory has crashed and sunk." I dunno. I'm willing to bet it still has legs. There are enough rich contrarians with over-sized egos out there that at least one of them will think HE has the answer. Most like they will use the example of Mel Fisher and his efforts to find that Spanish galleon (Atochca?) off the coast of Florida. Fisher found it and silenced all of his critics. But then again he was working in about 100 feet of water, not several thousand feet. It'll be interesting to see who else grabs the bait on Crashed and Sank. LTM, who is still afloat Dennis O. McGee #0149EC **************************************************************************** From Ric <> No, I think there's a big difference. Our work has consistently produced positive results. Baby steps, to be sure, and nothing yet that is by itself conclusive, but piece by piece we've assembled a jigsaw puzzle of hard evidence that is now complete enough that you have to postulate some pretty outlandish and totally speculative things for the picture to look like anything but Amelia Earhart. The trouble with a deep water search is that there is no trail of evidence to follow. It's all or nothing. You can't adjust your hypothesis based upon new iformation except to say, "It's not here so maybe it's over there." Will more investors buy into the Crashed & Sank treasure hunt? Who knows? I've been astounded at the money that has been spent so far. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:24:42 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: More Earhart Airport info requested MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Herman De Wulf (2406) They didn't use Jeppesens in 1937. The information AE used was sometimes rudimentary, often a written note a a piece of paper containing rudimentary information. I couldn't find anything on Lae airfield. I did find information on Caripeto. The notes AE had on this airfield describe it as follows : "All weather field of ample size approximately fifteen miles South of Caripeto or fourteen miles north of Maturin".You can look for yourself at www.lib.purdue.edu/earhart/images:IX.C.1.d.jpg LTM (who thinks flying was less sophisticated in the old days) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 15:15:44 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Nauticos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From David Katz I think Carol Dow and Herman De Wulf have mischaracterized something here. Nauticos made no fanfare about either their departure or their search. In fact, they have gone to great pains to keep both a secret. They made no announcement whatsoever before they left and have, apparently made none since. David Katz ************************************************************************* From Ric That's true. They did court the media during the planning phase of their search but clammed up as soon as they were ready to go. They're certainly under no obligation to tell anyone but their investors anything. TIGHAR, by contrast, is a nonprofit foundation and operates in the public interest. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 15:16:53 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Nauticos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ric, While I'm no expert on aviation, navigation or the like, the more I read and listen to those better informed than me, I'm convinced that our Niku hypothesis makes the most common sense to me. I have the map of her flight from Lae to Howland and the LOP as the background on my screen here at work. Every day I find myself looking at the map and asking myself what would I have done? Without question, with my butt on the line, I would have flown SE down the LOP with the good chance of finding a landfall to put the Electra down. Turning NW would seem to me a careless and life-threatning decision. Of course, I'm still a newbie but the Nikku hypothesis just makes plain common sense to me & I think it's fair to say that AE & FN weren't stupid. LTM Mike Haddock #2438 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:48:04 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: New Description of Final Take Off at Lae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt >Not sure if props > actually touched water, but two lines > of spray followed plane for possibly miles. For about 20 > miles the plane was not gaining height. Isn't it very likely that the 20 miles statement was a little exaggerated? Th' WOMBAT ************************************************************************* From Ric Seems likely. How far away could you see a Lockheed 10 skimming the wavetops? I would think that five miles would be pushing it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:49:26 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: New Airport at Lae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt > The new Lae airport is called Nadzab > LTM > Phil Tanner 2276 And it's not actually "new". As we've discussed before, Nadzab was very, very active during WWII. Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:50:10 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: More Earhart Airport info requested MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Frank Wolfe Reply to Charlie's request for lat and long for Howland and Lae New Guinea. Howland N 00 degrees 48.000' W 176 Degrees 38.00 Lae New Guinea S 06 degrees 44.000' E 147 Degrees 00.000' ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 09:34:46 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Intellectual rigour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Phil Tanner There's a neat little lesson in precision in research tucked away in the recent stuff about British patent numbers, and I'm the one who has slipped up. Simon Ellwood and I seem to have found the same information at the Patent Office web site, but he said the numbers reached six digits in 1965 and I said 1966. Of course, if a number well into six digits is listed as the first issued in 1966 and they are still in five digits at the start of 1965, then they reached six digits during 1965 not 1966. It doesn't matter in this context, but in other circumstances it might. LTM (if I'm still allowed to say so) Phil Tanner 2276 *************************************************************************** From Ric Speaking of rigor, Jeff Glickman at Photoek has identified 19 possible symbols on the face of Artifact 2-6-S-45 ("The Knob"). Working in the visual spectrum he has resolved the first of a group of symbols that we think may be the word PATENTED as being consistent with the letter P. That may sound like a no-brainer but there is a big difference between our subjective guess and Jeff's objective measurements. He'll get as much information as he can in the visual spectrum (i.e. hi-tech, specially lit digital photography and enhancement of the acquired image). Yesterday he discovered that some areas on the knob face flouresce under "Long wave" Ultra Violet light and that will help bring up more detail. Even if all of the symbols can not be resolved in the visual spectrum he'll at least be able to narrow the possibilities on the unresolved features (i.e. this might be an eight, a three, or a five, but it can't be a one, a four, or a seven). He'll then proceed to more elaborate techniques such as X-Ray and CAT scan to try to detect changes in the metal created during the casting process that may reveal the the identiies of the unresolved symbols. I'll pass along more updates as they come in. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 13:24:32 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Jeff Glickman at Photek MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee Is Jeff doing this new work gratis? Whether or not, he deserves a long round of applause from the forum for the professional service he is giving to TIGHAR. It sounds like he is equipped to handle just about anything. In recognition of his efforts, perhaps TIGHAR can name its new forensics lab, now under construction on the 14th and 15 floors of TIGHAR Towers, in his honor. :-) LTM, who scans only the written word Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ********************************************************************* From Ric Jeff is indeed doing all of this gratis and we are most appreciative. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 13:27:26 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: New forum subscriber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Eric Hello Everybody, I'm a new member who discovered TIGHAR as a result of my collecting recordings of the old time radio show THE LUX RADIO THEATER. During the broadcast of 6/21/37, it was announced that AE would be a future guest, after she got back from her around the world flight. (She was undoubtedly acquainted with the program's host Cecil B. DeMille, who worked at the same studio as GP and who was an avid booster of American aviation.) During the broadcast of 6/28/37, it was announced that AE's appearance would be postponed as her around the world flight was running behind schedule. This piqued my interest to go on line to find out more about current efforts to learn the fate of AE. The first web site I found was TIGHAR's Earhart Project, and the first article I opened had to do with the message traffic to and from Gerald Gallagher regarding the bones found on Gardner Island. (At first, I thought I'd stumbled onto a Clive Cussler-type novel posted on line!) After spending almost an entire day reading and re-reading the articles posted on the Earhart Project site, I suddenly realized that I'd developed an insatiable craving for the latest updates on the Earhart Project that could only be satisfied by becoming a member and receiving the journal & monthly newsletter and subscribing to the daily Earhart Forum. As a new TIGHAR "cub," I'm currently taking a "crash course" (no pun intended) on AE and the final flight in order to get myself up to speed on the information that's being discussed in the forum. (In addition to reviewing the forum archive files, I've just finished reading the Goerner book and am now reading Elgen Long's book. Next on tap is THE SHOES OF AMELIA EARHART.) At some point, I would like to contribute my own comments and observations to the forum. I'm delighted to be in TIGHAR, and look forward to an active and rewarding membership. Eric (NAS North Island, San Diego, CA.) ***************************************************************** From Ric Welcome aboard Eric. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:58:06 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Jeff Glickman at Photek MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Al Jeffries Once this is "all done" and smoking guns found, the story will make one heck of a NOVA two hour special Al Jeffries **************************************************************************** From Ric We've already had a very unpleasant experience with WGBH/NOVA so we're not real likely to get involved with them again. We had a two hour NBC News Productions special in 1992, and a one hour ABC News documentary and also a one hour Discovery Channel documentary in 1997. Our work has also been covered in about a half dozen other documentaries by the History Channel and Fox and the E! channel, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:59:53 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Reading characters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Scotty Thompson I keep seeing all the trouble folks are having in an attempt to read the characters on an item. When I was a young man I remember seeing friends bring out the date on coins that were totally obliterated and unreadable. My friend had a little bottle of what was called "Coin Date" liquid. He would just rub it on the coin and in a few seconds, wella! The date was perfectly legible. I have no interest or knowledge of coin collecting but maybe someone can remember this stuff or what it "really" was. I searched the key words with my search engine and got no results that seemed like what I was looking for. Hopefully this will help. Sometimes a stray thought can save the world, other times it's just a stray thought. Scotty Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:01:20 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: New forum subscriber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Margot Still I would also like to add my welcome to Eric and dare say he is in for the ride of his life. He will be amazed at the bizarre things he will learn and the things to which he will be exposed on this forum. 1. The forum wakes up in a new world every day. 2. They can also be vicious but I think they have had all their shots. 3. To quote the Most Handsome Head TIGHAR, "The forum knows all, tells all." Being thick skinned helps considerably, too. LTM, MStill, #2332CE ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:10:53 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Lae runway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Charlie Thanks to all who have helped me gather info on the airports at Caripito, Venezuela; Lae, New Guinea; and Howland Island. It is much appreciated. Only need Rwy orientation for Lae. I recall that there were two Rwys on that field. It was a different location from Nadzab, though, which is some 17 NM from the coastline. The Lat/Long that Bob Sherman sent looks good. His library must rival Purdue's. He also sent an awesome print of Howland Is. airport layout. re Caripito, did a lot of Internet research ... nothing on Caripito Airport. Did run into this comment from a guest book in a Venezuelan expat web site. "Comments: I was Chief Pilot for Creole Aviation from 1935 until 1958 when I retired. I lived in Caritito (sic) from 1935 to 1945 when I was transferred to Caracas and worked from there until retirement. Do you remember the Company planes?" This gentleman's response to my follow up e-mail: I think I can answer most of your questions. Now as to this so called "Caripito" airport. In the first place, there never was a Caripito airport. The terrain in and around Caripito was too rugged. However, we did have an airport named "Cachipo", and it was located About 1-1/2 kilometers almost due south of Quiriquire and out in a Savannah. Quiriquire was about 15 kilometers south of Caripito, so Earhart was fairly close in saying 15 miles south of Caripito. Also She was close in saying the airport was about 14 miles north of Maturin. I don't think I ever saw any figures for the Latitude and Longitude of the airport. There were two runways- one east-west and one northeast-southwest. Each were about 3500'. The runways were made by using a road grader to clear off the vegetation and then levelling the surface. It was then sprayed with several coats of crude oil. The light ends of the crude oil would evaporate, thus leaving the heavy ends.this would seal the ground so that the rains would not soak in-even in the rainy season of from 90 to 100 inches of rain. We built all our runways the same way at all our wildcat well locations. It was a quick way to prepare an all weather runway at very low cost. Unfortunately I was not there when Earhart arrived. I was at the Lockheed factory in Burbank, Cal. taking delivery of a new Lockheed 12 airplane that the company had bought. After receiving your e mail I quickly went through some of my Venezuelan pictures and found one 4x5 of the Cachipo airport. It shows our hangars and also Pan American Airways passenger facility. ******************** Well, no one is going to rewrite the history books. Amelia called it Caripito so it will alwats be that. I found it fascinating ... sorry it doesn't pertain to the Howland Island mystery. Strangest of all, this guy, he's got to be 87-90 yrs of age, who I found via the Internet, lives right in my hometown ... Fort Myers, FL. It's a small world! I've omitted his name ... didn't ask permission to post his e-mail msg on this group list ... will ask permission to do that on his next reply. If anyone has access to Lat/Long of Venezuela's Cachipo Airport, sure would appreciate knowing it. Thanks again to ALL for the wonderful support. Charlie **************************************************************************** From Ric Charlie, I've been assuming (incorrectly) that you are aware of the "Lae Gallery" of photos of the Lae airport on the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/9_11_00bull.html As you'll see, Lae had one runway, 15/33. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:11:48 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: A coincidence? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee There it was in today's Washington Post crossword puzzle: 53 Across, six letters, "Kiribati capital." Hmmm. I won't lie to you, I had to look it up. (Sheesh, I hate when that happens.) LTM, who is never cross Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:22:48 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Artifacts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan Ric, I looked at the web site again and at the artifacts. Item #2-6-S-21F was a little difficult to see clearly from those angles. For me but maybe not for others. Items 2-6-S-03A and B look like sequencing parts. By that I mean those little knotches might allow another part to sequence from knotch to knotch. I've seen pieces like that before. I just took my radar detector apart because the off/volume switch didn't work. It had a part similar to those artifacts allowing the switch to go from off to on to several degrees of volume. 03B may be bent because it is supposed to be bent so that it would function at right angles to whatever it was fastened to. The material reminds me of material used in nautical things. (I'm a long time sailor of racing boats) A sextant or an octant? I haven't a clue. Alan #2329 *************************************************************************** From Ric Angus Murray has been helping us with 03a and 03b. The screws appear to be brass American "No. 8" 15/16ths woodscrews manufactured to a specification that was current from the 1930s to 1970. The plates are probably aluminum but apparently not "aircraft" aluminum, and are definitely amateur-made rather than manufactured. The best theory we've had so far about how they were intended to work is Angus' idea that they are rotating catches, possibly used to secure accesories in a sextant box. The screw would not be tightened down hard - just snug. The serrated edge provided a grip for a fingertip and the empty hole accomodated a pin to lock the catch in place. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 10:06:04 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: New Earhart website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Thomas Van Hare Hey all, There's Earhart in the air, or should I say "on the web" from CMG Worldwide, a company in Indiana with offices in LA/Hollywood and, of all places, Rio de Janeiro, that represents dead personalities (do you need to use Joe Louis as a character in your next film? well, you better clear it with CMG, which represents the family and Joe's heirs). CMG has launched the new Amelia Earhart website: http://www.ameliaearhart.com/ Nice URL to have, an ok website, and a major PR push all designed to foster brand awareness of CMG out there (and yes, they do represent Earhart). All in all, interesting. (And thank you for the timely view of the bottom of the wing, with N-number clearly showing, as well as the outline of the flaps....) Thomas Van Hare HistoricWings.com **************************************************************************** From Ric Ahh, the seamy side of the legend.... The estate's claim to ownership of all things Amelia, policed by CMG, has been honored more in the breach than in the observance. Major marketing campaigns by big corporations (Apple, The Gap, etc.) have used Earhart's image with impunity without a peep from CMG. That may have something to do with the fact that big corporations have armies of corporate attorneys and CMG may not want to see the estate's basic claim challenged in court. CMG tends to pounce on small-time commercial exploitation of the Earhart name and image, but Linda Finch fought their challenge to a line of wearables she wanted to put out and won. CMG jumped on TIGHAR once about us calling our investigation The Earhart Project. When it became apparent that (like that old tobacco ad) "we'd rather fight than switch" they backed off. I think they're on shaky ground with their new website. I note that they use several photos that I know are copyrighted by the estate of the photographers and they don't even have them credited. That door swings both ways. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 10:08:38 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Earheart in Belgium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Herman De Wulf in Belgium Hi Ric, I wonder if anyone on the forum knows AE's itinerary while in Europe after her Atlantic crossing in the Lockheed Vega in 1932. I'll tell you why. There is a picture in a new book on the history of the Brussels airports that will be on sale on Monday, 13 May. The author is a friend and gave me an autographed copy. For those interested : Brussels had two airports since 1919. The first was built at Haren after WW I, the second at nearby Melsbroek after WW II. Following the building of a new terminal in 1958 it was renamed Brussels Zaventem airport because the terminal no longer stands on Melsbroek territory. This being said, on page 36 of the book is an interesting picture of mrs. Putnam and husband having just arrived by airplane at the old Brussels Haren airfield in 1932. The caption says the day was Sunday, 12 June. They sailed back to the USA on 20 June 1932 in the French liner "Ile de France". In the picture the couple can be seen standing under a high wing airplane. Of this aircraft part of the starboard wing and two struts can be seen. It's impossible to identify the type but it definitely wasn't the Lockheed Vega because of the struts. I wonder what type the aircraft, why AE came to Brussels and from where. She and her husband toured Europe after her Atlantic crossing in May. They had probably been invited by the late King Albert I at the Royal Palace as had been Charles Lindbergh in 1927 (but of Lindbergh I know he traveled in the "Spirit of St. Louis"). Does anyone on the forum have any information on AE + GP's itinerary during their European tour ? LTM (who is always eager to learn) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:10:18 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: New AE site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee Conspicuously absent from the "Links" page is a link to TIGHAR or any site dedicated to learning about her last flight. All of the books and videos are linked to Amazon.com and they offer a "Business Opportunity" link where people can approach the company with ideas to use AE's name, voice, or image. Tom King's book is not mentioned though Elgin Long's is, though that may be more a function of timing than a deliberate omission. All of this commercialism raises the question whether or not they are going to use any or part of their profits to help solve the mystery. Anyone placing bets on that issue? LTM, who staunchly refuses to sell rights to her name! Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:19:26 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Oakland symposium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Perry Ric, Today's San Francisco Chronicle had a big splash about the Earhart symposium put on by Ron Reuther in Oakland next weekend (5/17-5/19). You are quoted in it and are obviously aware of the event. There appears to be nothing new planned, except perhaps for Earhart buffs to tour old hotel sites where Earhart supposedly stayed. Of all the photos TIGHAR has of Earhart's shoes, the one in the paper is one of the best I've seen, although the shoe is no longer a hot issue. Bob # 2021 ************************************************************************** From Ric The article can be found online at http://www.sfgate.com/cgibin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/05/13/BA 35854.DTL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:22:59 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Another talk scheduled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King If there are Forumites in the San Joaquin Valley or vicinity, I'd like you to know that I'll be doing an illustrated talk on TIGHAR's work and signing copies of "Amelia Earhart's Shoes" at California State University Bakersfield on the evening of July 9, sponsored by the Kern County Archaeological Society and Buena Vista Museum of Natural History. Details will be forthcoming as they're developed. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:36:25 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Artifacts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan Caldwell That seems as good a theory as any, Ric. I noted in a previous note no one had a picture of a Pioneer Bubble octant. Did I read that correctly? And while I'm at it what was the instrument showing in the jpeg file I sent you of Noonan's position in the Electra? I have located a real Pioneer bubble octant from the Earhart era and asked the owner if the two knotched little artifacts ring a bell with him as to the octant or any other instrument Pioneer might have made. I also have access now to Pioneer's extensive data base on their instrument manuals. Not all are there but most of them. Alan #2329 *************************************************************************** From Ric Gary LaPook sent a link to his website where he had reproduced a page from the 1938 Weems "Air Navigation" showing an undated Pioneer bubble octant. The instrument in your jpeg was a pelorus - basically a rotatable telescopic sight mounted on a fixed compass rose oriented to the aircraft - used to take bearings on landmarks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:40:33 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Artifacts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan Caldwell Ric, I went through the entire list of manuals but no luck. They were all from contemporary flight gauges for the most part. My contact (General Manager I think) is pursuing this with the current owner of the Pioneer Instrument Company who is the son of the founder. That's where the old octant resides in a display case. I'm not holding out that this is anything but another dead end. If I can get a photo of the octant I'll post it to you. Alan #2329 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:35:11 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Another talk scheduled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Haddock For Tom King, Hi Tom. I live in Huntington Beach. Are you planning any appearances in Orange County? At Ric's suggestion I read your book and thoroughly enjoyed it. It put a lot of things in perspective for me. Any new books in the works? I have a friend who is the Public Relations director for Barnes & Nobles who might be helpful in planning a future booksigning. Ric has my phone numbers and I would enjoy hearing from you. LTM Mike Haddock #2438 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:59:17 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Oakland symposium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt Interesting.. It looks as though Howland isn't the only island "in the wrong place"... " stumbled into hostile Japanese airspace. A third, newer camp says she may have survived briefly as a castaway on the tiny, ***equator-straddling*** atoll of Nikumaroro north of Samoa. " Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 09:17:32 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Jungle crash sites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Eric Hello Everybody, Some of you might be interested to read about the work being done by the DOD's JOINT TASK FORCE FULL ACCOUNTING (JTF-FA), which sends teams to Southeast Asia to locate and identify the remains of U.S. aircrews listed as MIA. (Team accounts of efforts to locate and examine jungle crash sites dating back 35 years or more are very similar to those of the Niku expeditions.) There are a number of JTF-FA web sites which provide background information on the teams and their activities. One good example can be found at: http://www.flagshipnews.com/archives/oct182001_4.shtml If nothing else, these accounts will give you a good idea of what one can reasonably expect to find in the way of artifacts and human remains at jungle crash sites which, more often than not, had been disturbed by local native scavengers. Eric, NAS North Island, San Diego, CA. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 09:18:15 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Another talk scheduled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For: Tom King From Carol Dow Also, Tom, you have a book review for the Kansas City area scheduled. I lost the details, Can you RSVP, sil vous plait? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:33:16 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Nauticos Press Release MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric "Thank you" to several forum subscribers who have forwarded copies of this press release just issued by Nauticos: For Immediate Release Contact Lynn Jourdan 410-859-8080 Nauticos Makes Progress on Amelia Earhart Search Two-Thirds of the Search Area Completed In March and April, a team of ocean explorers from Nauticos Corporation conducted a deep sea search for Amelia Earhart1s lost Lockheed Electra. The team sailed aboard the R/V Davidson and was supported with equipment and in-kind services from a number of organizations, including the U.S. Navy (through a cooperative research agreement with the Naval Meteorology and Oceanography Command), Rockwell-Collins, Konsberg-Simrad, and James Cameron - Earthship Productions. The $1.7 million expedition was funded largely by Nauticos, with significant support from private investors. The expedition was led by Elgen Long, famed aviator and Earhart researcher, author (with his wife Marie) of Amelia Earhart: The Mystery Solved. Operations were managed by Nauticos executive vice president Tom Dettweiler, veteran of numerous deep ocean discoveries, including the Titanic, the Japanese submarine I-52, and the Israeli submarine Dakar. A search area was developed using Nauticos1 proprietary RENAV to analyze the wealth of data collected by the Longs and others. The search was conducted with a deep-sea sonar system developed by Nauticos called NOMAD, which was towed near the bottom of the Pacific Ocean at the end of a 10,000 meter (33,000 feet) steel-armored, fiber-optic cable. The expedition was to have lasted 60 days, with 40 days search time to cover at least 600-square nautical miles. However, six weeks into the mission, after 27 days of survey, the cable winch hydraulic system failed, ending operations. The NOMAD sonar system performed flawlessly, covering 630-square nautical miles of ocean bottom at a depth of 18,000 feet at better than one meter resolution. During one deployment, NOMAD was at depth for a record 257 hours, nearly eleven days of continuous operation. NOMAD remains fully capable of deep ocean operations. 3We accomplished a tremendous amount, having covered two-thirds of our search and gaining great experience operating in this area. We have begun winch repairs and plan to return to the site near Howland Island in the near future to complete the search,2 said David Jourdan, Nauticos president. Founded by Jourdan in 1986, Nauticos conducts deep-ocean exploration and recovery missions for the U.S. Navy, and provides engineering and technical support to government, industry and scientific organizations. The company also endeavors to find, preserve and protect underwater cultural heritage for future generations. The company is headquartered in Hanover, Maryland. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:34:42 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Jungle crash sites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From SteveI went to their MIA Conference in Strasbourg and met a lot of them. A really good set up and they are starting this year to work on sites in Europe including the underwater crash sites of aircraft. Best regards Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:10:48 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Another talk scheduled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King For Carol Dow Yup, I'm scheduled to give my Ameliaschpiel as speaker at the Wright Day dinner held by the KC 99s, on December 1, 2002. I don't yet have further details. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:29:53 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: New off-topic book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric Just received a copy of Prof. Mark Peattie's new book "Sunburst: The Rise of Japanese Naval Air Power, 1909-1941" (Naval Institute Press, 2001, ISBN 1-55750-432-6). Prof. Peattie's earlier book "Nanyo: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese in Micronesia, 1885-1945" (Univ. of Hawaii Press, 1987, ISBN 0-8248-1087-2) is required reading for any serious student of the Earahart disappearance. This latest offering has no particular relevance to the Earhart case but it's a rarity among aviation historical books (i.e. well-written and scholarly) and would be an excellent addition to the library of anyone interested in the Pacific war. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:03:15 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Another talk scheduled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From : Mike Haddock For: Tom King Hi Tom, Do you have any plans for talks in Southern California? I read you last book & loved it. LTM Mike Haddock #2438 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 14:11:30 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: The Bonaire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Lawrence, Interesting news in the local paper today. It seems that the Bonaire (66' sailboat from Orange Coast College) washed ashore on the island of Nonouti, in the Gilberts. The vessel was abandoned near Hawaii when the main mast threatened to punch a hole in the hull. Upon seeing the wreck on the reef, the locals stripped it to the bone. This brings up an interesting question. Seeing the Electra, would the locals stay away from it, being very superstitious or would they quickly dispose of the object of their good luck? *************************************************************************** From Ric Interesting. Eventually floating stuff washes up somewhere. What makes you think that the locals were "very superstitious"? It's easy to think that they might not have recognized its newsworthiness but I don't know why they wouldn't merely use whatever pieces seemed useful. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 09:12:44 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Another talk scheduled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King For Mike Haddock and others who've asked about planned talks in Southern Calif. None are planned right now. I try to arrange talks in places where I travel in my consulting and training business, and right now I don't have anything firmly planned south of the Tehachapis. I also need somebody (bookstore, local society, library) to sponsor and advertise the talk, and hence some time to get it set up. I am involved with a project in eastern Riverside County that could require my being in the LA area sometime in the next couple of months, but there's no schedule yet. If people have any ideas about sponsors and good times to speak, I'd be happy to see what I can work out. Thanks for the kind words about the book, Mike; glad you liked it. My talk illustrates the book's high points and goes on to cover current research results from the Seven Site. TK ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 10:09:28 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric Although the forum has been pretty quiet lately there's a whole going on behind the scenes that should soon give everyone plenty to talk about. - The 1,069 (count 'em) fish bones and fish bone fragments recovered from the Seven Site have been examined by thems as know from fish bones and we have a seven-page draft report. The big question we're trying to answer is whether these represent meals eaten by the castaway(s) or local islanders. If the former, what do the number and types of fish and the implied methods of preparation tell us about the castaway? Once the report is finalized we'll put it up on the website. We'll include some good photos of the kinds of fishies represented so that the report is more meaningful to folks (like me) who can't necessarily distinguish Carangoidae from Bothidae right off the top of their head. - We also have a preliminary report from the Smithsonian on the bird bones recovered from the site, with some very interesting observations. Turns out that most of the bones are from Frigate birds - not at all the type of bird I would have thought most likely to be caught and eaten. It also turns out that the bones we found on the surface near the water tank are all wing bones and the bones we found buried with fish bones and evidence of a fire are (no surprise) from the body. Same birds? Don't know yet. Castaway or island worker behavior? Don't know yet. - This report just in from Jeff Glickman at Photek re trying to decipher the symbols on Artifact 2-6-S-45 "The Knob": TIGHAR artifact 2-6-S-45 was x-rayed today (Friday, May 17) at Providence St. Vincents hospital in Portland, Oregon. The artifact was imaged using a newly installed digital fluoroscopy system from GE. The fluoroscopy system had insufficient resolution to image the symbols on 2-6-S-45. The radiologist in charge elected to perform no further imaging as the fluoroscopy results strongly suggested the other x-ray units would be incapable of imaging 2-6-S-45. I am continuing the visible spectrum analysis of the artifact, and will switch to more intensive lighting techniques to maximize the value of the images of the artifact's surface. In addition, to supplement the visible spectrum analysis, we are investigating access to a laser interferometer and a research nuclear reactor to create neutron absorption films. Sincerely, Jeff Glickman Photek Board Certified Forensic Examiner Fellow, American College of Forensic Examiners http://www.PhotekImaging.com - Angus Murray is working on a report on the two little fastener artifacts (2-6-S-03a & b). - In my copius free time I've been working along on the Niku IIII documentary. So much great footage to choose from (60-plus hours) and so many stories that could be told.... One bugaboo in making a documentary is always finding good music that is free from copyright restrictions. I'm playing with the idea of using some popular tunes from the 1930s that seem to fit our situation quite nicely ("You're Getting to Be A Habit With Me", "Ten Cents A Dance", etc.). I wonder how to find out if that stuff is old enough to now be in the public domain? - An Earhart Project Advisory Council (EPAC) made up of selected TIGHAR expedition veterans and researchers will meet in July to begin the planning for Niku V, now scheduled for the summer of 2004. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 13:09:43 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Lawrence I'm real curious on this one. How do you tell if a fish was eaten by a castaway or local islander? ************************************************************************** From Ric I'm not sure we can, but some possible clues would be: - if it's a kind of fish that islanders never eat then it probably wasn't eaten by an islander. - if it's a kind of fish that only lives out in deep water and can't be caught without a boat then it was probably not eaten by a castaway because it's a pretty safe bet that a castaway doesn't have a boat. There may be other clues but those are a coouple that come immediately to mind. Everything is the way it is for a reason and the trick to most investigations is figuring out what questions to ask about why things are the way they are. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:17:52 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Frank Wolfe I would suggest that you should look for human bones rather than fish bones, then take the DNA. Frank Wolfe *************************************************************************** From Ric (Another chance to hone my diplomatic skills and practice deep breathing exercises...) Frank, we BUSTED OUR ASSES FOR THREE SOLID WEEKS IN 100 DEGREE HEAT looking for human bones. We collected what bones were there and we're doing our best to learn what we can from them. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:33:23 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: music in the public domain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Lawrence Glazer Ric, According to the Public Domain Music website (www.pdinfo.com), "music and lyrics written by an American author and published in 1922 or earlier are in the public domain in the U.S. [i.e., under U.S. law; may not be in public domain in other countries]. The above applies to written music and lyrics, NOT SOUND RECORDINGS. Virtually no sound recordings are in the public domain (the exceptions being those few which have been expressly released to public domain). So, if Ten Cents a Dance was written in 1922 or earlier, you can use it but you'll have to recruit some musicians to record it. Now that might be an interesting internet collaboration for those TIGHAR's who are good musicians but bad researchers. LTM, who was worth a lot more than ten cents a dance. Lawrence Glazer #2424 ************************************************************************* From Ric Thanks Lawrence. That's exactly the information I needed (although not the information I wanted). Oh well..... Although we have an abundance of musical talent in TIGHAR it was specifically the sound quality of the 1930s recordings that I was after. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:36:02 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King Let me add a bit to Ric's diplomatic response to Frank Wolfe's suggestion. &^%%$#@!#$%&!! Now -- Frank, we have looked for (and continue to have people looking for) the bones that went to Fiji in 1940. We've looked in basements and attics of buildings where they might logically have been; we've looked in bomb shelters where they might have been taken during the War; we've gone through the anatomy collections of the Fiji Medical School. There are still places to look in Fiji; given the resources we'll look there. We went to the Seven Site largely because we hoped to find teeth that might have been lost from the skull when it was buried and subsequently re-excavated; teeth are very good reservoirs of DNA. We excavated the pit where we think it most likely the skull was buried; we screened the soil through 1/4 inch screen, then through 1/8 inch screen, then scanned it under UV light; we didn't find any teeth. We performed experiments with crab behavior that convince me that finding human bones OTHER than teeth at the Seven Site is a real, real long shot. There are, however, still places we might find teeth (or conceivably bones) at the Seven Site; given the resources, we'll pursue them. In the meantime, we've found the fire features that closely approximate Gallagher's description of the fire remains found with the bones in 1940, so we're investigating them to see what we can learn. It's really not that we haven't tumbled to the idea that human bones with DNA would be really good things to find. If you have any hot ideas about how to find them, I'd be delighted to hear what they are. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:38:13 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From S. Wesley Smith Be easy on Frank - he can't help it that he is a would've, should've guy, AKA second-guesser, back-seat driver, empty suit. Regards, S. Wesley Smith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:40:30 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Haddock Hi Ric, Exciting news! Looks like we'll have lots to talk about soon! I liked your response to Mr. Wolfe but I prefer the caustic responses I find so funny! Oh well! Keep up the good work my friend! LTM Mike Haddock #2438 ************************************************************************** From Ric I trust that Frank found the responses adequately caustic. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:44:13 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Music copyrights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson I'm sure that ASCAP would be able to tell you. A friend of mine used to have a biergarten restaurant with a polka band playing on weekends. Somebody from ASCAP asked the band to play "Happy Birthday", which they gladly did, and my friend subsequently got a letter from ASCAP demanding royalty payments. Apparently they have some kind of blanket system for charging for copyright use, but I don't remember what he told me about it. Also, it seems to me that he said there's another group similar to ASCAP that also owns or manages copyrights to published music, so you'd probably want to research that as well. If I recall correctly, copyrights last a LLLLOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGG time. ltm, jon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:47:42 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: 2002 Course and Field School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric Details and registration information for this year's Introductory Course in Aviation Archaeology and Training Expedition are now up on the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Histpres/courses/CA2002/CA2002course.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:44:37 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Angus Murray Its an interesting point that you managed to find over 1000 very small fish and bird bones and although there was a large amount of the skeleton missing from what Gallagher collected, the team was unable to find a single human bone. It seems likely that Tighar looked much harder than Gallagher did, although of course, they may be looking in the wrong place. Are bird, fish and turtle bones more durable? One would imagine that the crabs would remove bird, fish and turtle bones from the site if they removed human ones and yet many remain. It would be an interesting exercise to establish just how complete the bird, fish and turtle skeletons are. If they turn out to be very complete, maybe where they were found is not the same place as where the skeleton was found. (ie these fish, bird and turtle bones are not the ones referred to by Gallagher) I appreciate that the problem is compounded somewhat by the fact that there are perhaps a number of the same species and so it would be difficult to assign bones to an individual but I imagine some conclusions can be drawn. Regarding how to better find them, I believe that bones as well as teeth fluoresce in the ultra violet. One can even distinguish between the mixed bones of individuals in this way because of colour differences. This technique could perhaps identify individual birds, fish etc from mixed bones. It could also be used as a search tool at night. You might need a portable generator, but a few large UV strip lamps as used in discotheques would make a search at night feasible. It may be of course that coral also fluoresces, in which case one would have to rely on colour difference. Regards Angus **************************************************************************** From Ric Good comments and suggestions. Bear in mind that the bird, fish and turtle bones that were found were not scattered hither and yon, nor were they found in a general sweep of the area. Specific, well-defined sites were identified by finding a few bones on the surface. Those sites were then gridded off into 2 meter x 2 meter archaeological "units" which were then meticuloulsy excavated in layers, 10 cm at a time. Bones were picked out visually as the excavation proceeded and afterward the dirt was also screened and examined again. Then it was spread and inspected in the dark with a UV light (just as you mentioned) and the smallest bones were recovered that way. The point is, the human bones that Gallagher did not find were (most logically) moved some distance from the corpse by crabs, rats, or whatever. The fact that we didn't find human bones right there near where we think the castaway died is hardly surprising. If fragile bird bones have survived all this time, it certainly seems like more robust mammal bones should have also survived. The trouble is, those bones are probably now widlely scattered across an area that is covered with underbrush so dense that you have to see it to believe it. The area we cleared last summer represents only a fraction of the area that could contain important bones and artifacts. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:46:01 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Music copyrights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Marty Moleski > Also, it seems to me that he said there's another group similar to ASCAP that > also owns or manages copyrights to published music ... BMI and SESAC are the other two big players (pun realized): . Paying for a commercial license to perform music is probably beyond TIGHAR's resources or intentions. :o) If you know who owns the rights to one piece, you can probably negotiate a reasonable price for a reproducion of that one piece. I did this in the 70s for a songbook that, in the event, never got published. Marty #2359 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:47:04 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie"