========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:43:22 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: 100 octane at Howland? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg > Good question. I've never seen any reference to exactly what kind of fuel > was waiting for her at Howland but it could be buried in the message traffic. > Perhaps someone who has the CD would have the time to do a search. I've checked the messages organizing the logistics for the original (East to West) flight attempt, and for the West-to-East flight. The information is included in several messages spread over a considerable time period, so I'll just summarize the fuel data here. The fuel positioned at Howland for the original attempt consisted of thirty drums (I assume 42 U.S. gallons per drum) of 87 octane aviation fuel. No mention of 100 octane. There also was lube oil at Howland. After the takeoff failure at Honolulu, the personnel stationed at Howland were authorized to use some of the aviation gasoline as necessary for daily needs. While the Electra was being repaired, Standard Oil shipped four drums of "special takeoff gasoline" (I assume this was 100 octane) to Honolulu for delivery to Howland. That fuel was delivered to Howland by the Itasca. The final readiness report from the Itasca prior to Earhart's departure from Lae listed 95 gallons of lube oil and "29 drums aviation gas". There is no breakdown of the 29 drums, but if we subtract the 4 drums of 100 octane, that would leave 25 drums of 87 octane. At 42 gallons per drum, that would be 1,050 gallons of 87 octane and 168 gallons of 100 octane. It seems curious that no 100 octane fuel was positioned at Howland for the westbound attempt. But perhaps Earhart thought she wouldn't need to use much on the takeoff from Honolulu and would have enough remaing for the takeoff from Howland to Lae. Hope this helps. Bob Brandenburg #2286 **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks for digging that out. Very interesting. So there was 100 octane at Howland and Earhart didn't need to worry about not using up what she had on the Lae/Howland leg. In the Army Air Corps report on the Luke Field accident there is much discussion of the fueling of the airplane because the gas in the Standard Oil truck that was supposed to be used turned out to be contaminated with sediment and they had to make arrangements to use Army fuel instead, but nowhere is there any mention of what octane the gas was. It's merely described as "fuel" and I think we have to assume that it was all just the usual 87 octane gasoline. It may be that the use of 100 octane for takeoff was a very new development that only became a practical possibility between the first and second attempts. Some fairly detailed research into the history of the development of aviation fuels might shed more light on this. By the way, were 42 gallon drums the standard back then? I've always heard of 55 gallon drums. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:02:50 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Seattletimes.com: Vintage airliner raised intact from Elliott Bay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom Strang To view the entire article, go to http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134428597_planecrash30m.html Vintage airliner raised intact from Elliott Bay By Mike Carter Seattle Times staff reporter Engine failure forced the pilot of the Boeing Clipper Flying Cloud, the last airplane of its kind, to ditch the vintage airliner in Elliott Bay, investigators said yesterday. A National Transportation Safety Board investigation is focusing on a mechanical cause, said senior air-safety investigator Debra Eckrote. The flight crew, which consisted of some of Boeing's most experienced mechanics and test pilots, reported that one of the four 900-horsepower engines had surged unexplainably on takeoff just minutes before all four engines failed and the plane began rapidly losing altitude. Capt. Richard "Buzz" Nelson called a mayday at 1:09 p.m. yesterday and six minutes later ditched the Stratoliner 307 — one of just 10 built — in the bay just off the West Seattle shoreline. Eckrote noted that each of the pilots, Nelson and Capt. Mike Carricker, had "several thousand hours" of flight time. Besides the two pilots, a pair of longtime Boeing mechanics, Nathan Scott Andrews and Mark Kempton — the man who had overseen the plane's restoration — were aboard the 33-seat, silver-bodied airplane. None of the men was seriously injured, and Eckrote said all were fully cooperating with her investigation. "(Nelson) reported that he was in control of the plane the entire time," Eckrote said, adding that the landing was "fantastic" considering the circumstances. "It's fabulous that the plane is intact." Officials at the Smithsonian Institution, which owns the circa-1940 plane, were glad to hear that. The Stratoliner, the first pressurized-cabin, transcontinental commercial airplane built, is to be one of the showpieces of the Smithsonian's new Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center in Washington, D.C., an annex to the National Air and Space Museum to be opened next year near Dulles International Airport. There, it will be displayed with more than 200 other historic airplanes, including the "Enola Gay," the B-29 Superfortress that dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, and dozens of spacecraft and artifacts, including the space shuttle Enterprise. Peter Golkin, a spokesman for the Smithsonian, said the museum may not expect Boeing to restore the plane to flying condition. "We have no plans, once it gets here, for it to ever fly anywhere again," Golkin said. While the museum likes its pieces to be as close to airworthy as possible, it may not be feasible to invest the time and money in the Stratoliner to put it in the air again. Boeing spokesman Peter Conte said yesterday that the plane was insured and that the company had not decided whether it would mechanically restore the plane. If not, its interior and exterior will be restored and then hauled to the Smithsonian by truck. Its flight Thursday, according to Eckrote, began with a routine takeoff from Boeing Field about 12:30 a.m. The plane was being taken up so the pilots could practice takeoffs and landings and shake out any mechanical problems. The plane had logged only 100 hours in the air since it was restored, the investigator said, and had undergone only routine maintenance. The plan was for each of the pilots to do three takeoffs and landings, with the plane refueling between the sets. The first pair were uneventful, with the plane flying from Boeing to Paine Field in Everett. On takeoff there, however, the right-inboard No. 3 engine surged briefly, Eckrote said. It returned to normal, but Eckrote said the pilots decided to abort the rest of the practice and return to Boeing Field to check the plane out. On approach, with Carricker at the controls, a warning light showed that the plane's left-main landing gear had not locked into place. The approach was aborted and the plane circled Vashon and Bainbridge islands as the flight mechanic manually cranked the wheel into the locked position. Eckrote said the plane had resumed its approach when the No. 3 engine sputtered and lost power. The other three engines followed. Nelson, now at the controls, radioed his emergency and then took the plane into the water about 1:15 p.m. The right wing hit first and suffered some damage. Salvage crews lifted the plane from the water yesterday afternoon. The divers placed slings under the plane's aluminum-covered wings and opened every available opening so the seawater could drain out of the 33,000-pound plane as it was gingerly lifted to the surface. Tim Beaver, president and co-owner of Global Diving and Salvage, said one wing was buried in the silt and divers had to pressure-spray the debris from it before it could be moved. About 700 gallons of fuel mixed with seawater were drained from the plane's fuel tanks, which can hold 1,700 gallons of fuel. How much was fuel and how much water wasn't immediately known. Eckrote said it is possible that the plane simply ran out of gas. A small amount of fuel spilled into Elliot Bay in the crash. Coast Guard Petty Officer Robert Lanier said it was probably less than 10 gallons. Divers plugged the tanks and fuel rapidly evaporated. When the plane was out of the water, damage could be seen near the cockpit and on one wing. Divers also were looking for one of the plane's wheels, which came off in the crash. The aircraft was placed on a barge that was expected to be towed to Terminal 105 on the Duwamish River where crews were to wash it to remove salt water. By today, its wings were to be removed and the plane loaded onto a flatbed truck and returned to the hangar where it had been restored. "The Boeing people have told us that this plane is a national treasure," said Paul Gallagher of Foss Environmental. "They have hired us and other contractors to do what it takes to get it up in one piece (and) return it to Plant Two so they can restore it." Seattle Times reporter Aydrea Walden contributed to this report. **************************************************************************** From Ric When all four engines quit - that's fuel. The question is, was the cause mechanical or did somebody screw the pooch? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:13:31 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Call signs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Angus Murray From Angus > I understood Mike to mean that if the aircraft was domiciled east of the > Mississippi the call sign started with W. West of the river was K. The > Electra was domiciled in Burbank, California. Sat 30th Ric, I'll take that to be true then. (I wasn't absolutely sure, from the context, that it applied to more than army stations) As you may have guessed, I'm still wondering about WHAQQ etc. It seems too much of a coincidence for the W initial letter to be the only initial letter other than K to be applied to aircraft. Was Amelia flying some other aircraft from east of the Mississippi in the then recent past where she could have used a W initial letter, and hastily corrected a false start to give the correct end (HAQQ) to the callsign? Or had she regularly used a W starting callsign earlier in her career? Confusing K and W on voice, even allowing for static and distortion, seems most unlikely. If she made the KHABQ mistake under the stress of the situation however, she could also make this W mistake Can we find out if she if she used the complete callsign WHAQQ when flying some other aircraft, KHAQQ perhaps being a vanity adjunct to this earlier callsign and to KHABQ, as a special dispensation due to her fame? The fact that her Vega was KHABQ makes one wonder if she really could get special treatment regarding vanity call signs. Regards Angus *************************************************************************** From Ric My understanding is that the Vega used on the Honolulu/Oakland flight was the first of Earhart's ships to have a radio of any kind. I don't see anything particulary "vanity" about either KHABQ or KHAQQ. It could be that between the assignment of KHABQ to the Vega in 1935 and the assignment of KHAQQ to the Electra in 1936 there had only been 13 aircraft radio stations (B to Q) alotted out of Burbank (if that's what the KHA signifies). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:14:43 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: call signs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan, enjoying the forum coming back to "life." > I understood Mike to mean that if the aircraft was domiciled east of the > Mississippi thr call sign started with W. West of the river was K. The > Electra was domiciled in Burbank, California. > As to radio stations that was only generally true. There were exceptions. KDKA being a notable one. Whether they were 100% according to the Mississippi for aircraft I don't know. Alan #2329 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:20:11 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Why the 7 site? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Andrew McKenna << If someone chose that beach for that reason, then they were apparently expecting (hoping for) help to arrive from the northeast. What is northeast of Gardner? Nothing except Hawaii and the mainland U.S. >> Would the USS Colorado have been close enough to Gardner for its lights to be visible at night? I agree with Mike, seeing ships lights would be a powerful motivator to move down to the 7 site. I can't remember, are the trails visible in the Lambrecht photo? Andrew McKenna *************************************************************************** From Ric Colorado was certainly close enough to be seen from Nutiran shore. Her lookouts spotted the Norwich City using binoculars. She was about 10 miles out at her closest approach. But that all happened in the morning, not at night. No trails visible in the Lambrecht photo but the quality of the photo is terrible and the angle is much more oblique and the vegetation was thicker then than it was in 1938. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:21:35 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: call signs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Cam Warren Mike's right about the call-sign allocations, with the exception that some broadcast stations received three-letter calls; WLS ("World's Largest Store", i.e. Sears Roebuck), WGN ("World's Greatest Newspaper", Chicago Tribune), KGO & KPO, San Francisco; KFI, KNX, Los Angeles, etc. etc. These, on the "low end" of the dial, were nearly always high-powered "clear-channel" stations, with no other US stations assigned the same frequency. The three letter calls are being phased out whenever there's a change in license details. KOH Reno, became (to it's dismay) KKOH, when they shifted to a new frequency. (Modesty doesn't allow me to mention KRCW-FM, Santa Barbara, but you probably will recognize the connection.) Cam Warren ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:27:39 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: A number of radio matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Cam Warren Again, an agreement with Mike E. about radio matters. Transmitters are - of course - much "cleaner" these days, and Amelia's probably leaked all sorts of stray signals at close range (but at minuscule amounts of power!), especially if mistuned. Although rated at 50 watts (which is input to the final amplifier) the Electra setup probably radiated something substantially below that figure. (It could be calculated, but I'd guess if it put out 25 watts Effective Radiated Power - while airborne - that would be about it.) Reception of harmonics was and is possible on a typical "home" use receiver, but you're usually talking about a 50 or 100,000 watt international short-wave station with a precisely tuned (wire length, etc.) with a high gain directional antenna. Theory notwithstanding, 25 watts (a generous estimate!) of voice on the ground reaching several thousand miles on the FUNDAMENTAL frequency ain't gonna happen in the real world, guys. As for Gurr's modifications, it's quite possible he was biting off more than he could chew (despite Amelia's high opinion of him - due to a fluke, I might add), but the radio system on the Electra was reworked at Miami, and you can bet the Pan Am techs knew what they were doing. And don't bring up satellite radio as an example of amazing low power coverage. It works - line of sight - from an effective antenna height of 2,000 miles or more! Cam Warren **************************************************************************** From Ric Whatever Pan Am did in Miami, they didn't change the antenna length that Gurr had recommended. I'm sure that Bob Brandenburg would be happy to have your point-by-point critique of his propagation analysis if you disagree that it was at least possible for Betty (for example) to have heard Earhart on a harmonic. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:28:54 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: A number of radio matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt > From Mike E. #2194: > > And if sea water gets to the batteries -- ZAP. Plus they will generate a > poisonous gas when salt water gets to them. A lot depends on the batteries. When my yacht began to sink I ran it into the shallows around the island. The water was deep enough inside the cabin for the stove to float out of its mount and past the companionway. The batteries were under about 2 feet of water at that point. A combination of hand bailing and the receding tide allowed me to get the water level down after a couple of hours. Once the water was low enough I was able to find the terminals for the electric bilge pumps and pump the boat out as I waded through the mud pulling it ashore. They were not sealed batteries, just ordinary deep cycle lead acid electric fork lift batteries. I continued to use them for two years with no problems. It is possible the Electra's batteries could be submerged a few times and still work. if the vent holes in the caps were small enough. or if they were vented through a tube to keep any overflow away from the airframe, which would cause an air lock. Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:30:05 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Polhemus article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frpm Gary LaPook Any of you navigators out there ever use the "Polhemus Celestial Computer-Air Navigation, Type CPU-41/P" which was issued to Air Force "navs" in the '60s and '70s for computing "motions" and for plotting fixes? I have always assumed that Bill Polhemus invented it, probably not too many navigators with that name, anybody know any different? Didn't someone post a few weeks ago that they were to meet with Ann Pellegreno? if so did the meeting come off and did you learn anything interesting? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:40:17 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Call signs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From John Rayfield Mike E. wrote: > All radio stations in all services are assigned a call sign ID. And > supposedly, they are required to use it at least every day at sign on and > sign off, but in practice many do not. (Law enforcement being one example, > especially mobile stations, but these are often under a blanket "system" > license with one call sign for all mobiles). FCC Part 90 (police, fire, business, industrial, etc.) radio users are supposed to identify with their callsigns as follows (with a few exceptions, stated in part 90.425): "each station or system shall be identified by the transmission of the assigned call sign during each transmission or exchange of transmissions, or once each 15 minutes (30 minutes in the Public Safety Pool) during periods of continuous operation." John Rayfield, Jr. **************************************************************************** From Ric The question, of course, is what was the reg (if any) in 1937 and is there any reason to think that AE woud pay any attention to it anyway. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:43:55 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Herding cats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Haddock Hi Ric, I think it's important to remember as you have pointed out before, the essence of what TIGHAR is all about is the investigation of a tradegy involving the loss of life of two extremely brave & talented people. I get a little weary of people making light of what is to me a very sad and tragic story. Hope I'm not being oversensitive, but I enjoy the forum so very much especially when it involves intelligent discourse among people who genuinely care about solving this tragic story such as yourself. I would hope that my fellow forumites would feel the same and restrict their comments to the business at hand of unraveling this fascinating mystery. LTM (who appreciates this forum) Mike Haddock #2438 *************************************************************************** From Ric We do get pretty irreverent at times but nobody means any harm by it and, Lord knows, the Wonderful World of Amelia could do with a little irreverence. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:53:21 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: R: call sign MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Angus Murray Ric, I seem to remember reading that the flight to South Wales carried a radio. Where was the aircraft "domiciled" and do we know the call sign? Regards Angus. ************************************************************************* From Ric According to Mary Lovell's book (The Sound of Wings) the call sign of the Friendship was WOX. It was probably domiciled in New York. AE didn't use the radio on that flight. It was code only. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:54:57 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Why the 7 site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Muenich While a castaway would not have seen the lights of the Colorado in the daytime, they may have well seen her smoke. Those old battleships were not exactly EPA emission control approved. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:02:25 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: 100 octane at Howland? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson Hi Ric, I did a quick search of the web, and found the Army's Quartermaster Museum, where there is a fair amount of information on fuel supplies. The only reference I found to drum size was circa 1952 / Korea, where they talk about 55 gallon drums. I have sent an email to the museum asking if they can provide information for 1937. ************************************************************************** From Bob Brandenburg > By the way, were 42 gallon drums the standard back then? I've always heard > of 55 gallon drums. > > LTM, > Ric It turns out that 42-gallon drums were not standard back then. I just checked the Wiley Encyclopedia of Packaging Technology at www.steelcontainers.com/wiley.htm . The 42-gallon standard evolved from the use of wooden barrels for shipping kerosene between 1859 and about 1914. The barrels were built to hold 50 gallons, but typically lost enough during transit to arrive with about 42 gallons. Sometime after 1907, the first true 55-gallon steel drum was introduced. But the 42-gallon barrel had become the standard unit for bulk shipment of petroleum products, and continues as such to this day. There is an interesting passage stating that toward the end of the 1930s the steel-container industry started gearing up for the war effort, and that 55-gallon drums were "indispensable to the fuel supply of island bases and assaults in the Pacific . . ." So it would appear that the avgas on Howland was in 55 gallon drums. LTM, who is fascinated by the new vistas of knowledge that this forum opens. Bob #2286 ************************************************************************** From Ross Devitt > By the way, were 42 gallon drums the standard back then? I've always > heard of 55 gallon drums. > > LTM, > Ric All of the available photographs of the Earhart flight show 44 IMP gallon drums (roughly 53 US gallons) Th' WOMBAT *************************************************************************** From Ric I would guess that whether a drum was a 44 Imperial gallon drum or an American 55 gallon drum would depend upon the supplier. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:04:41 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Pelegrino MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Dow Ric, Someone asked about Ann Pelegreno, Woody "Rogers" Peard is very good friends with her and spent a lot of time with Ann. I have talked with Ann personally (about 2 hrs.on a Sunday afternoon) and sent e-mails back and forth and mail but nobody knows her closer than Woody Peard. Ann doesn't really like to engage in dialogue, so I would go through Woody for questions, assuming Woody is willing. I can tell you one thing about Ann Pelegreno....when you're flying an airplane and there's a top notch navigator on board....do what your navigator says....says Ann...amen. Carol Dow #2524 **************************************************************************** From Ric I'm sure that Ann Pelegreno is a very nice lady but I can't imagine that she has anything to add to our discussions. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:10:55 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Off Topic- Boeing crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson >When all four engines quit - that's fuel. The question is, was the cause >mechanical or did somebody screw the pooch? Hi Ric, In _Fate_Is_The_Hunter_, Ernie Gann recounted a similar problem - turned out to be a new type of sparkplugs were installed - in 3 of the 4 engines (I think he was flying a DC-6 at the time). ************************************************************************** From Skeet Gifford Jet A? ************************************************************************ From Ric Maybe, but it sounds like they were refueling between each session of takeoff and landings. They should have had their act together. If was the investigator on this one I'd be asking where the selector valves were set during the pre-landing checklist. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:15:37 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Herding cats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Haddock Hi Ric, I agree having a little fun is okay. Believe me, I'm not a prude! I just enjoy the forum so much I hate to see it be anything other than a very interesting dialog among very bright folks. For this newbie who has read everything in the TIGHAR archives, which book would you suggest I begin reading and how do I go about getting it? Maybe Kar Burns book? Believe me, I don't want to waste my time reading books that contain misinformation. I strongly support the TIGHAR hypothesis. LTM (who also enjoys a good laugh) Mike Haddock #2438 *************************************************************************** From Ric You need the book authored by Tom King, Kar Burns, Randy Jacobson, and Kenton Spading entitled Amelia Earhart's Shoes (see http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0759101302/qid%3D1017764025/ref%3Dsr%5F 11%5F0%5F1/102-8465647-3244931) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:18:21 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: A number of radio matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Cam Warren > Whatever Pan Am did in Miami, they didn't change the antenna length that Gurr > had recommended. > Interesting. I assume you have supporting documentation, but I seem to recall a Putnam letter (wire?) to Mantz specifically mentioning the reworking of the antenna system. Cam Warren *************************************************************************** From Ric Well, we have photos showing the airplane in Burbank after it came out of repairs and photos of the airplane after it left Miami, and the antenna set up looks identical. Any changes must have been internal. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:35:00 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Artifacts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From JHam 2128 RE: March TIGHAR Tracks report from T. King, "A pointed fragment of ferrous metal found about ten meters from the nearest Tridacna feature fits neatly into the best preserved pry wound on one of the shells." Any thoughts regarding what the metal object may have been? Or what or where it might be from? blue skies, jerry *************************************************************************** From Ric My best guess is that it's a piece of scavenged Norwich City debris. It's Artifact 2-6-S-12. You can see it at http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/11_20_01%20Bulletin/castaway. html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:36:01 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: call signs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Andrew McKenna << From Ric I understood Mike to mean that if the aircraft was domiciled east of the Mississippi thr call sign started with W. West of the river was K. The Electra was domiciled in Burbank, California. >> It is basically the same today. Dad just moved from NJ to Colorado, and he is expected, although apparently not required, to change his ham license from a W call sign to a K call sign. Andrew McKenna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:37:38 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: call signs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Angus Murray > >From Ric . I don't think there was any such thing as a "vanity" call sign. From Mike .. but there were no > vanity provisions for other services, at that time, that I am aware of. > > It was not till the 1990s that Amateur radio stations were able to get > "vanity" calls, in general. Ric, I found this on the net which seems to indicate that for amateur stations at least, there were, even in the early days, some limited vanity call signs available. Whether this applied to aircraft, of course is another matter, but evidently the principle was established. 1928 - As the transmitting range of amateur stations increased, Hams naturally worked DX and it became necessary to have international call signs, international prefix structure is set by the International Radiotelegraph Conference of 1927-1928. This call sign structure lasted for the rest of the 1920's and the 1930's. Stations in the 48 States had a 1x2 or 1x3 call sign beginning with W and containing a numeral from 1 to 9. Stations in Alaska, Hawaii, or other US Possessions had a K prefix. See Pre WWII K calls. The zero numeral was not available. Boundaries were considerably different from today - for example the western sections of New York and Pennsylvania were in the 8th call district. See Old District boundaries 4 Note that the suffixes beginning with X was reserved for experimental stations. Eventually, the FCC relaxed their position on the 1x2 and 1x3 X suffix calls, but the 2x3 call signs (such as KB6XYZ) are still reserved for experimental use. W#X** calls were also portable calls - a separate authorization was needed for portable operation and their suffixes began with X. Apparently there was a very limited "vanity call" program - if a ham wanted a 1X2 call and met several criteria, such a call would be issued. If a ham moved to a different call area, he/she had to get a new callsign that matched the district of the new location. Unlike today, you could always tell where a ham station was located by the callsign. Regards Angus. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:38:27 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Great balls of fire. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King For Angus -- The fire features are along the surge ridge that forms the highest part of the SE end of the island, though there are higher points in the Pisonia forests of eastern Nutiran. I suppose they could have been used for signalling, but obviously people were also cooking fish, bird, and turtle in them, unless the critters decided to immolate themselves. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:39:07 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Pelegrino MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody For Gary, I am in contact with Ann weekly, I forwarded your post . We will see what she has to say. Woody ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:39:48 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: A number of radio matters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike E. #2194: For Cam Warren: The transmitter was rated at 50 watts output, and the input power was 100-110 wats. 73 Mike E. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:40:46 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Sextant Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Kenton Spading A few weeks ago while discusses sextants, Andrew wrote: > Ric - How about posting a question re Ludolph sextants to this group. There > are 180 members of this group, surely one of them knows something about > Ludolph. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sextants/ > I think you will have to join to post. > amck ************** Spading replies: This reminded me of something. I visited Amsterdam a short time ago. After eating lunch with Van Gogh and Rembrandt I wandered into an antique store that specializes in antique nautical instruments. The owner, who I was told is somewhat of an expert in scientific instruments, was not in. His assistant suggested I contact the owner with any questions that I might have. I don't have time to followup on this, however, if someone else does....his contact info is: Ben Byleveld Antiques Nwe Spiegelstraat 45A, 1017 DC Amsterdam Post Box 15700 1001 NE Amsterdam phone: 31020-6277774 fax: 31020-6272747 email: sales@byleveld.nl web: www.byleveld.nl Owner: Stephan Meulendijks mobile phone: 31-06 53236550 LTM Kenton Spading ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 11:47:52 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: LOP FAQ is up. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The LOP FAQ is now up on the website. http://www.tighar.org/forum/navigation.html It looks great in Netscape and Explorer but it's acting funky if viewed via AOL. Haven't figured out why yet. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:36:26 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Artifacts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Angus Murray > From Ric > > My best guess is that it's a piece of scavenged Norwich City debris. > > It's Artifact 2-6-S-12. You can see it at > http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/11_20_01%20Bulletin/castawa y. > Ric, Steel is readily susceptible to useful analysis due to its varying carbon content, crystal structure and alloying constituents. If you collect a sample from the NC it would be quite easy to put this idea to the test. It would not of course tell us who brought it to or used it at the site however. Regards Angus *************************************************************************** From Ric Wouldn't various types of wreckage from the ship exhibit a wide variety of properties - hull plates versus hatch covers versus Lord-knows-what? This kind of analysis may, however, be useful in determining where the (very rusted) corrugated metal found at the Seven Site came from. We collected samples of surviving corrugation from what we believe is the old Arundel site on Nutiran and from the village. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:37:17 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Great balls of fire. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson Hi Ric and Tom, It crossed my mind that if the fires were used for signalling during the day, the castaway could have thrown food leftovers in, in an effort to generate more smoke. ltm, jon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:46:23 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: LOP FAQ is up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson Hi Ric, When I read the article in Tighar Tracks, it clarified for me how the LOP like nothing else. Seeing it in living color on the website is great. I'm using Netscape. When I bring it up, the compass rose and the picture "Aircraft course approaching..." are way off to the right of the page, and cut off. The caption that goes with the "approaching" picture runs down the side of the page, underneath, and the text resumes after that. Don't know if it's just my machine, or if anyone else is experiencing the same thing. Otherwise, everything is clear. ltm jon ************************************************************************** Dear Ric & Pat, Wonderful job on the LOP page. Many thanks! LTM. Marty #2359 ********************************************************************** From Jim Kellen Ric, I was pretty sure that I understood the LOP explanation the first time I heard it. Your replies to repeated requests for further explanation reinforced my initial understanding. I just finished reading the LOP FAQ on the website. There is no need for any further questions or explanations on this subject. Excellent job! LTM, Jim Kellen #2331 *************************************************************************** From Amanda Dunham Ric, I just looked at it in Netscape 4.73 on a Mac. Everything is fine except that some of the compass rose graphics are pushed off to the right side and cut off. Other than that it looks great. Amanda TIGHAR #2418, patron *************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks guys. Yeah, I'm still seeing those problems. Pat will try to figure out what's wrong. Sometimes getting a graphic-intensive piece to load correctly in all formats is a bit of a challenge. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:51:33 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Sextant Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ed Ric, Kenton, et al., I would be happy to follow up on further sextant research. I have gotten printed copies of several Ludolph patents, and I have some ability to read them in German, {at least with a dictionary). I think that the patents may picture components for which the Ludolph documents may have been lost. I'll even join you as a member rather than an interested reader (lurker). My hypothesis is that the sextant box may be a very good link between Noonan, Niku, and A.E. If there was a sextant #3500, it was probably unique (or very rare), so it could be a better link than Blucher Oxfords or Cat's Paw Heels. In any case, I'd like to follow #3500 where ever it may lead. You can also contact me directly at EdisonTA@aol.com You can call me Ed! *************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Ed. I'll be putting up a posting her on the forum soon bringing everyone up to date about what we have learned about the artifacts that we suspect may associated with a sextant or its box. *************************************************************************** From Herman Ric, I sent a message to Byleveld in Holland (sent a CC to you). Hope he contacts you. Herman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:55:43 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Pelegreno MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt >* From Ric > > I'm sure that Ann Pelegreno is a very nice lady but I can't imagine that > she has anything to add to our discussions. Except maybe first hand experience of flying a similar airplane to Earhart's over long distances? It's a bit like my first hand experience of being marooned on a tropical island with no likelihood of rescue. What I did is not necessarily what others would do, but it adds more probability to the speculation. Some of Ann's experience of flying a slightly different model Electra could be useful as could Linda Finch's, if it was available. Th' WOMBAT ************************************************************************** From Ric Loud and cramped seems to be the consensus about flying Lockheed 10s over long distances. You'r not going to get any great insight about fuel management from either Pelegreno or Finch. Each of them had men along who really knew how to fly the airplane. That's not intended to be a sexist comment, just statement of fact. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:22:25 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: So How About the 7 Site? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt This post is long and full of contentious points - many of them my opinions and all of those based on hard experience. [From Ric: To save time, I'll insert my comments in brackets.] It now seems that the 7 site is the "Bones" site, beyond any reasonable doubt. [Your opinion. Mine too. But still opinion.] The positioning of the water tank, the likelihood that there was apparently a small stand of coconuts just under 2 miles from the 7 site on the point of land that just into the lagoon (north of Kanawa point) which probably would have been cut off from the sea and the lagoon shore by scaevola. [The water tank is almost certainly from the Gallagher-era and your stand of cocos on Taraia Point wasn't there in 1937. It isn't on the 1939 NZ survey map or the 1939 aerial mapping photo taken by the plane from USS Pelican.] The bird bones and turtle shell as well as the signs of activity at the site. Add to that the circumstantial pointer of the "Lambrecht Photo" which just happens to have been taken from a position that overlooks the 7 site. [That's a real stretch.] How long could the castaway have lived at the 7 site? Not long really in any sort of health. A human needs a certain amount of water to live. If we take into account the liquid acquired by eating birds, turtles and fish it still falls short by a considerable quantity. Without water the kidneys fail, followed by other organs causing a nasty slow death. Our castaway would probably not have lived long enough to make permanent trails like those shown in the aerial photographs prior to settlement. [We know there was a drought but we have no idea what the actual rainfall was or whether it was enough to sustain a person. The trails were not "permanent" and are not apparent in the 1939 photo taken just five months after the 1938 photo in which they appear.] I know Ric disagrees with my suggestion that a treck from one end of the island to the other was necessary on every day that the 7 site was used but nobody who has not been stuck on a smallish island for a few weeks can possibly understand just how much boredom involves itself in the daily routine. I concede that there are two ways to get from the north shore of the main passage to the top beach. One is by walking around the island and the other is by walking across the lagoon side, past what the N.C. survivors called the "Lake". One would have to be there and try it to see which was the most sensible. From the N.C. survivors' reports I think it may have been possible to take a shortcut past the "Lake" then cross over to the ocean beach. Once there though a walk from there to the 7 site should take even a tired person no more than an hour. [I have no idea what you're talking about.] Let's double it and say 2 hours. That allows for crawling the whole way on hands and knees! The heat is not an issue. Where I was brought up it snows in winter. I went from there straight to working dawn till dusk in the top end of Australia with no gradual acclimatisation. It was hard manual work in the sun day after day. You get used to hardship remarkably quickly. Ric and the crew experience Niku for a few weeks at a time with most modern conveniences and little time to acclimatise. Of course a walk from one end of the island to the other is going to knock them about. If I came straight off a luxury liner to the island every day I'd feel it too. [I'm going to ignore that crack.] Not so, our castaway. He, she or both of them would have very quickly learned about keeping out of the sun from mid morning to mid afternoon. It appears from photographs and weather patterns that the north shore of Niku is the weather shore for a fair bit of the year. If that is the case, it could well explain our castaway walking down that beach each day. The ocean breeze drops the apparent temperature by a degree or two. The shade of a Ren tree would drop it further. Unless you were injured so badly you could not move, walking that shore daily would most likely become a part of your regular routine, dictated by the necessity to avoid boredom if nothing else. Now, back to our castaway. The sextant box and the Benedictine bottle are the most obvious pointers to the castaway being Earhart or Noonan, although both could as easily have come from either the Norwich City or the Electra. [I would say that the woman's and man's shoe parts found with the bones were the best clues.] Who knows where the Norwich City may have picked up a bottle of Benedictine. On the other hand, if the Benedictine bottle washed ashore from the N.C., why not other bottles? Surely our castaway would have beach combed for anything useful. I doubt that a bottle of benedictine would have been standard lifeboat provisioning, and I also think it unlikely that in the excitement of trying to get the lifeboats away someone on the N.C. would have thought "Hmm, must rescue that bottle of Benedictine before the ship breaks up..." Of course stranger things have happened. Earhart though had just been a guest of various French officials throughout the African part of her trip. There is at least one photograph that shows her looking rather inebriated and holding what looks like a hip flask. Actually it has always struck me as odd that Noonan is supposedly the drunk, and Earhart is the only one photographed looking drunk. It is quite possible that Earhart or Noonan was given a bottle of Benedictine as a going away present by one of their French hosts. Our naked castaways. Someting that aroused a little mirth on the forum was my suggestion, learned by spending a few weeks as a virtual castaway myself, was the suggestion that the lack of clothing and buttons found suggested the castaway may have been naked. Given that the buttons found at the 7 site may have come from the castaway or other people, even Gallagher, there is rather more to it than that. Both Earhart and Noonan wore belts - apparently, but by no means certainly - leather. There was no belt or buckle found with the bones despite part of the pelvis and most of the thighs being found. It is interesting that the leather parts of the shoes appear to have disappeared but the rubber heel and sole parts survived. The belts may have disintegrated, but what of the buckles? [The rubber heel surivived? That's new information to me.] Pockets should have contained small personal treasures, but the only such things were in the sextant box. Noonan never went anywhere without a pen, so it is possible he wasn't the castaway or we may have seen a journal in the sextant box. Actually one would imagine that if Noonan died, she might use his pen for the same thing, even writing inside the box if there was no paper. So what about the clothes? What is one of the first things that happens when you are in a stressfull situation with rationed food and water? Weight loss! If our castaway had been wearing clothes he/she should have been wearing a belt. If one or the other of Noonan or Earhart had died, I imaging the belt, shirt and trousers would be salvaged by the other one. I'd certainly have no compunction about burying my recently dead companion in his/her underwear. Speaking of underwear. Although cotton decomposes rapidly, what of elastic? If our castaway lived a while, his/her shirt and trousers would soon begine to deteriorate. Often sleeves are removed, and trouser legs are shortened to create shorts. Of course this is not a good move as the clothing provides warmth and protection at night. It is not hard to imagine the castaway wearing a shirt for protection from the sun whilst not wearing trousers because of the discomfort. Shoes, although one's feet do tend to toughen, would be cherished as they allow access to places you can't easily go in bare feet. That the castaway still had shoes suggests he/she either treated them carefully or did not live long enough to destroy them. The evidence of the trails near the 7 site suggests the former and also suggests the 7 site was in regular use despite the lack of an apparent reliable water source at that end of the island. The lack of personal items and the availability of a regular water supply elsewhere could suggest the castaway did not live at the 7 site permanently. I suspect that the 7 site has a lot more secrets to reveal, including some of the longer bones that are missing. [At last we can agree on something.] I also suspect that somewhere on the island is the castaway's main camp site and it may hold even more secrets. Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:28:01 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Off Topic- Boeing crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom Strang Ric, For your continued interest - the cause may become more interesting than one may first believe - Boeing folks are different than most folks - there is alot of interest out here about what happen to the "307" - the truth will surface. --------------------------------------------------------------- Engineers await Stratoliner's fate These are retired aircraft engineers. So as they await word on the fate of "their" Boeing Model 307 Stratoliner, they are doing what retired aircraft engineers do: They are telling stories. * Read the full article at: http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/local/64883_plane02.shtml **************************************************************************** From David Kelly Does the old saying "there are only two types of pilot, those who have landing with their gear up and those who are about to" apply to fuel selection also? Regards David (a very worried private pilot) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:52:53 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Great balls of fire. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Stuart Alsop > >From Jon Watson > > Hi Ric and Tom, > It crossed my mind that if the fires were used for signalling during the day, > the castaway could have thrown food leftovers in, in an effort to generate more > smoke. Wouldn't green vegetation (leaves, twigs, etc.) ripped off nearby plants do a much better job of generating smoke, than clam shells and fish heads? Stuart ********************************************************************* From Tom King For Jon Watson -- it's certainly possible that the food leftovers went into the fire to generate more smoke, and that the purpose of the fires was in part to signal hoped-for rescuers. Or the food leftovers might have gone into the fire simply because the fire was there, having been where the food was cooked, and it's better to throw fishbones in the fire than to have them lying around poking into your feet. I don't know of any way to find out. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:54:17 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Artifacts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Holt > >From Ric > > Wouldn't various types of wreckage from the ship exhibit a wide variety of > properties - hull plates versus hatch covers versus Lord-knows-what? Yes. Somewhere around here I have a couple of articles on testing steel and iron to determine where it was mined and exactly how it was worked. The articles were written by a Briton who was using it to identify medieval artifacts. Angus must have read the same stuff. (I do have an application for it, but it's not at all relevant to this project.) If I can find it, I'll send a link or the entire article to Ric. Mike Holt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:09:21 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Off Topic - Boeing Crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom Strang To view the entire article, go to http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134430549_stratoliner03.html Tests begin on cause of Stratoliner crash in Elliott Bay By Kyung M. Song Seattle Times aerospace reporter Divers are expected to return today to the spot where pilots ditched a Boeing Stratoliner in Elliott Bay on Thursday, scavenging for missing parts that could make the one-of-a-kind vintage plane nearly whole. Investigators also today will begin tests to determine, among other things, whether the four-engine aircraft went down because the fuel tank had run empty. Boeing is still mulling whether it would be feasible to restore the plane to flight-worthy condition. Yesterday, the company gave Associated Press (AP) and KING-TV journalists, selected as pool reporters, a close-up look at the Stratoliner 307, which has been hauled to a hanger behind Boeing's former corporate headquarters building on East Marginal Way. The Clipper Flying Cloud, first delivered to Pan Am in 1940, is structurally intact. But the accident — and the subsequent daylong immersion in salt water — left it looking hardly like a pampered airplane whose band of 30 volunteer restorers had formerly required onboard visitors to slip paper booties over their shoes. The damage tally included torn skin behind one wing, dented cowlings, swollen wooden flooring and doors, a corroded aluminum skin and stained wall fabric. The AP reported that the sea has left its mark in gray streaks and the threat of internal corrosion. The crews are doing their best to counter that with fresh water, a soap solution and Fels Naptha soap, a World War II-vintage remedy. Inside, the carpeted wooden floors are spongy underfoot. The cockpit is bare with a few dangling wires, its instruments and radio among the first essentials to be removed, dried and cleaned. The instrument panel had to be recovered quickly; it's irreplaceable. All the blue-and-white-upholstered bench cushions on the starboard side have been removed, though the roomy blue leather single seats on the port side were still in place yesterday — along with the rich leathery smell, despite the damp. The embossed beige wall fabric — rewoven for this plane in Pan Am's signature global-map pattern and hand-sewn into place — was stained by the mix of salt water and hydraulic fluid that poured through the interior as the plane was lifted out. The hope is to remove the fabric for cleaning before the damage becomes permanent. Boeing said it received dozens of e-mails from people offering to help make the Stratoliner fly again. Boeing built just 10 Stratoliners before World War II interrupted the airliner market, and the Clipper Flying Cloud is the sole surviving version. STEVAN MORGAIN / THE ASSOCIATED PRESS The Boeing 307 Stratoliner sits on jack stands in a hangar near Boeing Field. A test pilot ditched the plane in Elliott Bay last week after engine failure. Boeing used its own employees, volunteer labor and donated materials during the seven-year restoration. Douglass Interior Products of Bellevue donated blue Scottish leather for the single seats as well as carpet. John Hroncich, Douglass's vice president of sales and marketing, said the company "most definitely" again would provide the material for free. Meanwhile, the National Transportation Safety Board continues its probe into why the Stratoliner's third engine surged unexpectedly before all four engines failed. Kurt Anderson, a senior air-safety investigator with the Seattle office of the safety board, said investigators will test the plane's fuel gauge as well as the fuel-tank senders, which measures fuel levels and relays the signals to the fuel gauge, for possible malfunction. Anderson said one possible cause of the accident under examination is that the aircraft simply ran out of fuel, but he said investigators are also looking at other possibilities. Kyung M. Song can be reached at 206-464-2423 or ksong@seattletimes.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:13:39 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Earhart Symposium at Western Aerospace Museum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Reuther Ric, We would appreciate it if you could send the following announcement to the TIGHAR list. An Amelia Earhart Symposiun is planned for May 17-19, 2002, at the Western Aerospace Museum, at the Oakland Airport, Oakland, CA. It will commemorate the 65th Anniversary of the departure of Earhart and Fred Noonan on their last flight and also, the 75th Anniversary of the historic Oakland Airport. The Western Aerospace Museum, the Amelia Earhart Society, The International Organization of Women Pilots (99's), and the Port of Oakland are co-sponsoring the Symposium. The Symposium will feature new interpretations not previously published or released by researchers. Plans include two full days of panel presentations by researchers with audience partiicpation encouraged; a reception Friday night; a fromal dinner Saturday night featuring special guests, and a narrated bus tour Sunday morning to the Oakland-Alameda sites where Earhart and Noonan conducted their activities. Reservation and registration information is available from the Western Aerospace Museum at P.O. BOX 14264, OAKLAND, CA 94614, 510-638-7100, or from Ron Reuther at 415-435-3951. ************************************************************************ From Ric Because someone is bound to ask.... No. TIGHAR will not be participating. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:59:48 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Jack as interpretor for Kilts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kenton Spading, 1382CE Subject: Jack as Interpretor for Kilts A while back, Tom King wrote: But maybe Jack was the interpreter. Kilts is, after all, reporting what the interpreter said the informant said [about bones on Niku]. ************ Ric Replied: The point is, we know that Jack was on the island at the time we think the bones were found. This hypothesis is getting pretty complicated if we're saying that Jack couldn't just tell the story himself because - what? - he didn't know about it? *********** Spading replies: I have been thinking about this. I don't think Jack as the interpreter has to complicate Tom's Kilt's hypothesis. It is apparent that he very likely knew the story. But that does not mean that he had first hand knowledge of the discovery or that he witnessed or remembered the recovery/collection details. It is not too hard to imagine a situation where Jack would ask one of his fellow natives to fill in some details of the story that he was not sure about or did not witness. Try this hypothesis. It is approximately April 1940. Jack is with a party of workers near the village. At the same time, another work party, lead by Koata, is working down on the southeast end of the island clearing land. The SE party, which includes Koata and Kilt's Native Informant (lets call him KNI), find a skull. Koata surveys the situation and tells everyone to head back to the safety of the village. Koata then promptly buries the skull and makes tracks for the village as well. Upon returning to the the village, he instructs everyone that the area is off limits. In September 1940 Gallagher shows up. He asks why the clearing operation on the SE end has stopped. After a bit of cross examination, the skull story is revealed. Gallagher is intriqued and wants to examine the skull. No one saw where Koata buried the skull, so Gallagher has to wait for Koata (who is now in Tarawa) to return. Later, when another work party is dispatched to dig up the skull and look for other artifacts/bones, Jack once again stays behind to attend to other duties. Jack finally gets to see the bones and artifacts after Gallagher has gathered them. Years later, Kilts runs into Jack and, unlike the other natives, Jack can speak English. Kilts is curious about the island's history so he begins to shoot the bull with Jack. Jack loves the attention and decides to lay the skull story on Kilts to spice up the "we arrived and planted cocos" story line. During subsequent questioning, Jack admits to not knowing all the details as he was not with the work party when the skull was found but adds that KNI was. Kilts asks to meet KNI....Jack acts as the interpreter and the rest is anecdotal history. LTM Kenton Spading (who often times consults with another to flesh the details of an event shared by both of us) ************************************************************************** From Ric That works. Of course, we don't know that Koata ever returned from Tarawa do we? But the big question would be whether Jack was on the island in 1946? What makes us think he was? Why do we need him there? Kilts talked to somebody who apparently knew the story first-hand but whose English was not very good. That could be any of the laborers who were on the island in 1940 (we could problably assemble a list of names if we needed to). Then somebody had to act as an interpreter, but there is no requirment in Kilts' story that the interpreter also knew the story. I just talked (again) to Leroy Neilson who was there when Unit 92 was decommissioned. He doesn't remember Kilts but he also does not remember Jack Kima Petro or any foreman or reprsentative of that description. He does remember that some of the villagers spoke better English than others. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 12:07:20 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Artifacts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Dow Hi Ric, Donna McGuire at The Kansas City Star has a write-up this morning about Tali Johnson, a Samoa native who lives in the area, who rescued from Savai'i, Samoa, airplane parts that he thought were from Earhart's plane. "As it turns out Lee Koepke, a Michigan mechanic who restored an Electra used to trace Earhart's route, recently dug out his old parts manual. He said the Electra used different suspension mounts, and at different places on the engine mount structure, than what Johnson had found." Ref: www.kansascity.com...4-4-02, Donna McGuire, article entitled "Could it have been Earhart's plane?" End of story, but it made the front page. How about those apples? Carol Dow #2524 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:11:35 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Great balls of fire. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson Hi Ric, Stuart and Tom, I certainly don't dispute the fact that there is really no way to tell about the fire/s, but when Ric (I think it was Ric) mentioned in an earlier post that the Colorado was within visual range of the island, it just seemed to me that Amelia and/or Fred might have tried to run up the biggest, smokiest fire they could on short notice, and with whatever might be readily available that would generate smoke. Food leftovers seemed logical to me. Every time I cook outside, I drop something through the grate, and it smokes like crazy... ltm jon ************************************************************************* From Ric They may have done that but almost certainly not from the Seven Site. After only seven days I would be very surprised if they had already located way down there and it's doubtful that the Colorado would even have been visible from there. It's closest approach was to Nutiran. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:19:57 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Earhart Symposium at Western Aerospace Museum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson Hi Ric, Are we not participating because we weren't asked, or because we declined? It won't matter to me regardless, my Tighar event calender is full for this summer! ltm jon **************************************************************************** From Ric TIGHAR was not invited to participate in the Amelia Earhart Society's symposium, but we would have declined anyway and they probably know that. The AES is made up primarily of devotees of various conspiracy theories and their entire approach to research is different from ours. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:46:40 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Found Plane Not Earhart's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Suzanne Astorino in Stockton, CA Carol Dow wrote: >From www.kansascity.com...4-4-02, Donna McGuire, >article entitled "Could it have been Earhart's plane?" Very interesting story! The correct URL is: http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascitystar/news/2993210.htm for others who would like to read the article. ************************************************************************** From Ric We were peripherally involved in this from early on. Tali Johnson phoned me with his story and later Patrick Gaston called and we did a little preliminary research. I looked at a few pictures that Patrick forwarded and made a few inquiries with various experts and it quickly became apparent (to me anyway) that it was not worth spending any more time on. Donna wanted to pursue it and eventually wrote it up for the paper. It's kind of interesting as an example of the judgement calls we frequently have to make. We simply can't afford to run down every possibility to its bitter end, so we have to decide what to follow and what to dismiss. The "Love to Mother" telegram is a classic example. We decided, when it first came up, that it was ridiculous to think that it had anything to do with Earhart and we wasted no time on it (and, in fact, "LTM" became enshrined as shorthand for "Don't jump to stupid conclusions"). Our opinion was later confirmed by those who had the time, or were willing to spend the time, to thoroughly research it. Of course, if we had been wrong and thorough research had proved it to be significant, we would have felt pretty dumb. That's the chance you take. Tali's tale of airplane wreckage near Samoa followed the same pattern. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:10:20 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Great balls of fire. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson Ric, The Colorado sailed on the northeastern side of Niku, not the southwestern side. ************************************************************************** From Ric Looking at this more closely; Colorado came down from the north northwest (roughly tracing the LOP) and turned east for Hull when she was about 10 or 11 miles out. (Freidell was giving the island a wide berth because he didn't trust the charts.) IF the ship could be seen from shore at that distance it looks to me like it would have been visible from the northwest tip of Nutiran (the closest point of approach) all the way down the long northeastern shoreline - so, I was wrong. Yes, theoretically it could have been visible from the Seven Site if it could be seen from, at that point, about 11 or 12 nautical miles away. It probably depends upon how tall her funnels were and whether she was making visible smoke. But, as I said, if AE and FN were there I would doubt that they had yet moved down to the Seven Site. If they were still hanging out near Norwich City, it doesn't look to me like they would have had line of sight to Colorado at all. Colorado's look-outs only spotted the shipwreck because it is so far out from the beach. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 13:42:52 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Found Plane Not Earhart's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Dow Hi Ric and Everyone, Am tempted to add to what Ric said. I went to one of these so called seminars and all I heard was pet theories. One party (with another party) not to mention any names is writing a book about how British spies and American spies sneaked into Earhart's airplane and set Noonan's chronometer back by 15 seconds....thusly, they couldn't find Howland Island. And to prove the theory they claim the Itasca was searching in an area that was off by 15 seconds navigational time. So, the inference is that the Itasca knew about the plot. So, try having lunch with these people and after while you'll come away cross-eyed. Wait, we're just getting started....did you know there was two airplanes? One was N 16020 and one was NR 16020 which proves there was two Earharts and two Noonans out snooping around in Japanese held territory. With all due respects to their theories, I wish them well, books or whatever they are attempting. Respectfully submitted to you all. Carol Dow #2524 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 14:44:19 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Nauticos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from Chris in Petaluma, Ca. Ric, Does anyone know when Nauticos' ongoing expedition ends? Any scuttlebutt on anything found? Chris #2511 ************************************************************************ From Ric Haven't heard a peep. There is not even any official confirmation that they are out there (but they are). If they were on-site on schedule (mid-March) they should be wrapping up in the next week or so. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:31:42 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Nikumaroro vs Mili MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Bright From Ron Bright 5 April 02 Ric, As everyone knows the Marshall Island folks made a commemorative stamp of the Electra crashing at Mili Atoll and the Electra hanging off the stern of the Koshu. Not to be outdone, the latest version of business clip art cards, p 213, has a commemorative clip art of "Earhart-Nikumaroro" Island symbol. Perfect for Niku theorists who need a business card. Maybe there were two Electras!! LTM, Ron Bright ************************************************************************* From Ric As I recall, some of the AES boys say there were something like five. In 2000, not to be outdone by the Marshalls, Kiribati published both an Earhart commemorative stamp and a Nikumaroro stamp. They're already quite rare. We have a number of them on envelopes postmarked in Atchison on AE's birthday. Haven't decided what to do with them yet. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:44:36 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Earhart Symposium at Western Aerospace Museum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dustymiss Can't we all just get along? ************************************************************************ From Ric There is certainly no animosity on this end toward those who hold different opinions about what happened to good ol' Amelia, but there is spirited disagreement about the standards and methodologies employed by the Conspiracy Crowd and the Crashed-and-Sankers. With limited resources, we simply don't have the time to indulge in meaningless haggling. That's why I cut off the endless navigation speculation on the forum. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:31:24 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Stamps, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan R. Millen >In 2000, not to be outdone by the Marshalls, Kiribati published both an Earhart commemorative stamp and a Nikumaroro stamp. They're already quite rare. We have a number of them on envelopes postmarked in Atchison on AE's birthday. Haven't decided what to do with them yet.< Sell or auction them as fund raisers. >That's why I cut off the endless navigation speculation on the forum.< THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alan R. Millen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:34:04 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Artifacts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From David kelly If that made front page in Kansas, I think I'll skip visiting. It does not sound like much happens in Kansas except tornados and flying houses. Regards David Kelly ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:37:19 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Earhart Symposium at Western Aerospace Museum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt > From Ric > >That's why > I cut off the endless navigation speculation on the forum. Thought the forum had gone a bit quiet.. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:23:56 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Kansas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From S. Wesley Smith Well David - since you have so much to offer that will improve the landscape and the "happenings" in Kansas, why don't you move there and turn things around? If you don't wish to move, then kindly keep your condescension to yourself. Regards, S. Wesley Smith ************************************************************************** From Ric Surely we can find something more productive to do than snipe back and forth about Kansas. I'm presently working on a summary of what we've been able to learn about our two mysterious little fasteners; Artifacts 2-6-S-03a & -03b. One that is up on the website I'll be eager to see what the forum thinks about it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:52:37 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Kansas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Dow in Kansas City Let me explain to you that The Kansas City Star has an ongoing interest in Earhart because she is a Kansas native. They give it a lot of attention. If it wasn't for the fact that she was from Kansas originally born and raised a few miles up the Missouri river from Kansas City I don't believe the coverage would mean that much to them. Atchsion, Ks sits high on the bluffs overlooking the Missouri. It is beautiful. The Kansas City Star has an excellent journalism department because they pull from the Univ. of Missouri at Columbia which is well known for its journalism school. It's great to live in a city with a great newspaper, i.e., The Dallas Morning News, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The St. Louis Post Dispatch. I would have to include The Kansas City Star in that list. They are very good. If you have a computer, what difference does it make where you live? It could be Santiago, Chile. What if Donna McGuire didn't cover these Earhart stories....what would you want....silence? At least she's doing it. So, why should anyone complain about the fact she's in Kansas. At least she's somewhere, and people are sending her information because they know it will make the paper. Is there anyone who wants to complain about that? My goodness. Carol Dow #2524 ************************************************************************ From Gary Payne Well, oddly enough, the largest part of Kansas City is in Missouri. There IS a Kansas City, Kansas. It's much smaller than the Missouri side and the Kansas City Star is published in Missouri. For the record, I have never seen a tornado OR a flying house (except on TV and in the movies!). Neither do we have wooden sidewalks, cows running through the streets or chickens in the yards. At least, none of MY neighbors do . . . --gary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:55:25 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Sextant box MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jen Do you think the numbers on the box could be 1542 out of 3500 made? The 3500 could be stenciled, because that number is constant. The other number would be handwritten to denote the number of that specific box after it was made. ************************************************************************** From Ric That is certainly one hypothesis? How can we test it? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:05:58 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Drum questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Perry Ric, At the risk of belaboring this point further --Bob Brandenburg's story is certainly correct--I'll add a slight nuance. The standard unit of volume of a petroleum product produced in a refinery is the barrel, which, as has been said, is 42 gallons. "Drums", on the other hand, are normally 55 gal., and there are smaller sizes, but 55 gal. was undoubtedly the case here. The point is that a 55 gal. drum can indeed hold more than 42 gal., and the quantity of gasoline shipped or provided in a 55 gal. drum could have been more than 42 gal., but no more than enough to give sufficient outage to allow for expansion of liquid in the drum in that hot climate. What the practice was then, who knows, but I would guess that 13 gal. would be excessive, and 10 gal. max outage should be sufficient, giving a container with 45 gal. in it. On the other hand, it could be 40-46 gal, ie, whatever the filler elected to do at the time. In short, there would be nothing "standard" about filling a 55 gal drum with 42 gal. since the gasoline was undoubtedly provided Earhart in so many gallons, not barrel units , and whatever could be safely provided in the minimum no. of 55 gal. drums would have been the logical procedure. LTM, Bob Perry #2021 **************************************************************************** From Ric That's very interesting. I had always assumed that a 55 gallon drum had 55 gallons of whatever in it. Here's another drum question that may help us figure out who did what at the Seven Site. In addition to the square tank at the site there are also the remains of a metal barrel or drum way over on the extreme east end of the site (as we've been able to define it so far). It's now little more than a pile of rust but it appears to have originally been painted white and it's quite a bit smaller than a standard 55 gallon drum. I measured the surviving ring that was the top or bottom at 25 inches in diameter and i estimated the original height of the barrel at about 50 inches. I wonder if that conforms to some American or British standard. If so, it could be a clue as to who put it there. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:34:05 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Kansas Comments: cc: dmcguire@KCStar.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King It's interesting to me that with all its interest in Earhart, the KC Star hasn't seen fit to review "Amelia Earhart's Shoes," which the publisher sent some months ago to the reporter Carol identified. I'm scheduled to do a talk and book signing for the KC 99s at their meeting in December; I wonder if the Star will notice. ************************************************************************** From Ric I'm forwarding a copy of this posting to Donna McGuire at the KC Star. Surely she'll find a book about the most scientifically sound investigation of the Earhart disappearance ever undertaken as worthy of ink as some obviously-not Earhart related wreckage in Samoa. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:57:32 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: R: sextant box MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Gary LaPook > >From Jen > > Do you think the numbers on the box could be 1542 out of 3500 made? > > The 3500 could be stenciled, because that number is constant. The other > number would be handwritten to denote the number of that specific box after > it was made. > > ************************************************************************** > >From Ric > > That is certainly one hypothesis? How can we test it? Easy, there is Ludolph sextant for sale right now on E-bay, buy it and look at the box. gl ************************************************************************* From Ric That's a 1965 sextant. The serial number is 14596. We already know that Ludolph did not put numbers on the boxes. ************************************************************************* From Kerry Even if this hypothesis is correct, it is of little value unless the records of the company that made the box are intact and detailed enough to give us information like year of manufacture and to whom the box was delivered. I think a useful pursuit with regards to the box markings would be to try and locate a sextant box of known provenience with the same kind of numbers on it. Antique shops, maritime museums and internet auction sites are all potential sources. *************************************************************************** From Ric This is a road well-traveled. When we first learned about the box found on Niku we had researchers in the U.S. and in Europe look for sextant boxes with numbers - any numbers - stencilled or written on the outside of the box. Of an estimated 500 boxes checked, we found only one that had numbers written on the outside. That was the Ludolph in the U.S. Navy collection that had once belonged to Fred Noonan. ************************************************************************* From Dean A 2056 This would mean that the company knew ahead of time that they were going to produce 3500 copies. With high quality instruments of this type I think it would be highly unlikely they would run a batch that large?? ************************************************************************ From Ric At least in the case of the Ludolph company we know that serial numbers were assigned sequentially to all products made by the company, so for example, Ludolph product 3500 might be a sextant and Ludolph product 3501 might be a chronometer. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:09:18 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Drum questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dan Postellon Someone has done a study of airplane auxiliary fuel tanks in the Pacific. After they were jettisoned, they often floated ashore, and were used as rain barrels and such. Is there any chance that this is what the "small barrel" was? Daniel Postellon ************************************************************************** From Ric Not unless someone was using steel, flat-ended drums as airplane aux. tanks. ************************************************************************** From Veryl Fenlason Ric' The measurements you gave for the white drum sounded a little stange so I went out to the storage shed and measured afew of ours, and one of them was a real oldie. The 55 gal druns are 22 1/2 in. by 35 in. The 30 gal. drums are 18 1/2 in. by 29 in. Veryl in mn. **************************************************************************** From Ric Sheesh. By that measure a drum with a 25 inch top and height of 50 inches would be unusually big, not small. **************************************************************************** From Angus Murray Ric, Whilst my knowledge of oil drums is slight to say the least, I must raise a few points. A modern 55 gallon drum is about 24 x 35 inches external giving a gross volume of approx 68.5 US gallons. A 25 x 50 drum is therefore bigger not smaller. This also begs the question as to whether a "55 gallon" drum was actually the ultimate capacity or the nominal usable volume. A modern 55 gallon drum can, it would appear from the calculation, actually holds about 65 gallons so it would appear that one would indeed expect to get at least 55 gallons from a modern "55 gallon" drum. >That's very interesting. I had always assumed that a 55 gallon drum had 55 >gallons of whatever in it. So I think you're right Ric. I find it difficult to believe that one would call it a 55 gallon drum if you didn't expect to get that out of it. Certainly in a military context it would be too confusing. 25 x 50 inches gives a gross volume of about 106 US gallons. This would be 88.5 British Imperial gallons. If we allow the same percentage dead space, (20% approx) the nominal capacity is 85 US gallons or 71 Imperial gallons. Perhaps someone can tell us if there were any US or British container sizes close to these figures. The nominal capacity may be a little less if Ric has used external dimensions. My guess is that we Brits used 25 gallon increments. 71 gallons could then represent a British 75 gallon drum especially if they allowed less expansion space. A likely internal measurement in Britain would be 24 x 48. This gives 78 gallons ultimate capacity and a possible 75 gallons nominal capacity. Regards Angus. *************************************************************************** From Ric Very odd, and now of course I wish I had paid closer attention to measuring what was left of the barrel. It was really just an afterthought. I did have the impression that the barrel was different than the ones we see up in the village. I'll have to see what we have in the way of photos. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:10:58 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Kansas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From David Kelly My comments were really on that the story appeared to be a story about not having a story which seemed unusual. They were not a "dig" at Kansas. Regards David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:18:20 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Another bad idea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Craig Hi Ric: Although this is relating to Earhart, it's about as off-topic as you can get while still containing the name AE. I've taken it from aintitcool.com, a web-site about movies. Their information is usually pretty accurate. Cross your fingers this idea will suffer a crash-and-sink fate. I especially like the part where he says "I Was Ameila Earhart" is a tragedy for fictionalizing and trivializing AE's life, but then proceeds to tell the story the way he has, even changing the known facts about Putnam to add drama... "Last week we announced Director Richard Martini and Producer Phil Noyce's plans for the Amelia Earhart biopic, and today Martini tells Moviehole more about the production. "This is not "I Was Amelia Earhart" where she winds up on a deserted island carrying on a romantic liaison with her navigator. Apologies to those who've worked on that piece, but Amelia gave up her life for the pursuit of her dreams - to fictionalise, or trivialize that, is in my opinion, a travesty. "The facts of what happened to her after she crashed in the Pacific have been available, albeit in bits and pieces, since the 1960's; no one has put them together in a script that I'm aware of. That being said, I'm surprised that this story hasn't been shopped around for years", Martini says. Martini's story runs much deeper. "George Putnam heard some rumors at the end of World War II what might have happened to his wife and flew to Saipan in 1945 to learn the truth. The story follows his search for her. We learn bits and pieces of what really happened courtesy of the islanders who witnessed it; her crash near Mili Atoll, her plane being picked up by a Japanese seaplane tender - one witness was an island doctor (still alive) who tended to them aboard the ship and witnessed a Japanese officer speaking to Amelia in English. "George finds out they were taken to Saipan where she and her navigator Fred Noonan were put in Garapan prison. (part of the tour nowadays, in Garapan) The Japanese apparently found the two US Navy cameras hidden inside her plane (presumably to take footage of Japanese activities over the Marianas), a fact recently confirmed here in the U.S. by the man who put them in her plane - Amelia and Fred were held in prison as spies for a number of years - George finally interviews an eyewitness who revealed that while the US was shelling the island during the War, she was taken to a tree, offered a blindfold, which she refused, and she was shot. "He also learns how the first wave of US Marines that went ashore found out what happened to her (one of those Marines whom I ran into on a flight recently, confirmed this part of the story), and her and Fred's remains were recovered in 1945. Despite all of these eyewitness reports - the story was buried with her. In reality George returned from Saipan and said he'd learned nothing about what happened to Amelia - in our version, it's so painful, his guilt so great, that he chooses not to tell it. "It's a tragic love story, but a story of heroes, and it's about time someone told it. "Phillip Noyce is attached to produce, and I'm directing from my original script. I met Phillip in Cannes a few years back, we talked about the story, he didn't believe it, then I showed him some of the evidence, interviews, etc. that I've gathered over the years. After asking why anyone hasn't told this story before, he agreed to help at that moment". "As for casting, no names can be revealed as yet but "Amelia was one of the most enigmatic, magnetic personas of the last century. Her husband was equally a force of nature - we're looking for actors that can capture their essence". Martini says he would like to make the film in Australia and it will hopefully be ready for audiences in 2003." Craig in Kingston, Ont. **************************************************************************** From Ric Lots of movies never get made. Let's hope this is one of them. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:25:11 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Sextant box MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Muenich Did Ludoph make the boxes or were they outsourced? We have looked at the potential info re the sextant itself, but if the boxes were outsourced to a manufacturer, the manufacturer of the boxes may have additional info or records ************************************************************************** From Ric Don't know for sure but I strongly suspect that they were made in house. I'll try to find out. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:30:20 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: KC Star article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Patrick Gaston You know, for the first time in years a reporter for a major daily newspaper takes an active interest in the Earhart saga, and this Forum responds with (a) musta been a slow news day in Kansas [BTW the Star is published in Kansas City, MISSOURI]; and (b) Tom King's complaint that Donna McGuire, whose job is not reviewing books, didn't review his book. Donna's article about Tali Johnson grew out of her excellent pre-Niku IV story on the various schools of thought as to AE's fate. For a cover-the-waterfront piece it was well-researched, well-written and, in general, the most evenhanded treatment of the subject matter I had seen in years. Tali Johnson's story was not earth-shattering, but it >was< intriguing. For a while we thought he might have stumbled -- or paddled -- upon the wreckage of the Samoan Clipper, a Sikorsky S-42 (NC 16734) which went down in 1938 with all hands, including pioneering transoceanic aviator Eddie Musick. According to www.planecrashinfo.com, "Neither the plane nor six crew members were ever found." As it turned out, however, the Samoan Clipper was lost on approach to Pago Pago, which is a couple hundred miles from Tali's wreck site. So the jury's still out on exactly what Tali found -- and while it's almost certainly not an Electra, it could well be a pre-war relic. (Interestingly,Tali told me that the fishermen on his home island had kept the wreckage a secret all these years because they didn't want anyone horning in on their best fishing grounds!) When a reporter takes an interest in the Earhart saga, or historic aviation in general, she deserves this Forum's applause and not its sniping. I, for one, hope Donna maintains her interest in AE and look forward to her next byline. LTM and TTTS (Thanks To The Star), Pat Gaston ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:32:37 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Drum questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt I measured > the surviving ring that was the top or bottom at 25 inches in diameter and > i estimated the original height of the barrel at about 50 inches. I wonder > if that conforms to some American or British standard. If so, it could be > a clue as to who put it there. There is a drum that is close. My fuel dump supplies were always delivered in 3 standard fuel drum sizes and as they are still in common use here, they should be in the US. Unfortunately although they are all the same capacity, local generic terminology makes it confusing. Oddly, I believe the metric (Litres) capacity is the fairly accurate one and the imperial/US have always been used locally in the respective areas for convenience. I suspect your drum might be the middle one. The drums supplied to Earhart are the last one. The first one is round, but happens to be the same capacity as the "Jerry Can". Common Name 4 imperial gallon/20 Litre/5 US gallon Common Name 12 imperial gallon/55 Litre/15 US gallon Common Name 44 Imperial gallon/200 Litre/55 US gallon My diesel came in 44 gallon, avgas came in 44 gallon, petrol came in 44 and 12 gallon, kerosene came in 12 and 4 gallon and oil came in 4 gallon. I don't remember which other combinations each fuel was available in. We ordered in the sizes that were convenient for our aircraft and transport vehicles and serviceability at our isolated fuel dumps. Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:38:57 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Sextant box MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Haddock Hi Ric, I wouldn't be suprised at all if Ludolph did indeed outsource the boxes. Even in the van conversion business I was in for thirty years, we ousourced our wooden appointments in the coach. Woodworking is a nasty business and I think Ludolph wouldn't want sawdust flying around where precision machine work was being done. Just a thought. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 20:31:59 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: KC Star article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Dow I would like to add something else to what Pat Gaston said: Across the wide Missouri in St. Louis lies the Pulitzer Publishing company. If you wanted a Pulitzer prize for literature or playwriting you would wind up in the hierarchy of The St. Louis Post Dispatch. Missouri, in particular, prides itself on journalism. The Univ. of Mo. at Columbia runs the city newspaper using students (almost exclusively) from the journalism school. It is really very good, and I believe it may be the supply source for some of the excellent reporting we get around here. So Kansas City is on one side and St. Louis is on the other side, and these bluffs around here produce some interesting real life characters, i.e., Mark Twain, Harry Truman, Jesse James, Amelia Earhart....not many, really, but interesting ones... for sure. As Garrison Keeler would say....so it is from the grass roots and the wheat farms of the U.S. of A. Carol Dow #2524 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 20:42:24 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: sextant box MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Van Holsbeck I am more fasinated with the fact that no sextant boxes with numbers stenciled on them were found when looking for possible matches let alone anything with a sequence in the 35xx range.... except one that used to belong to a guy named Fred Noonan. Hmmmmm But do these have to be Ludolphs numbering scheme? Did he have to buy it "factory direct"? Where might he have bought the one in the museum? Mabey they were stock numbers from a merchant that had many navigational items. Did the Airline he worked for buy a big group of these for thier navigators and these were the company's "inventory" numbers? I just think looking through Ludolph papers for this may be a waste of time. If you make a fine precission instrument and put it in a "finely" crafted box, the last thing you would want to do is paint and scribble on it before someone buys it. But, Once bought by a company to be used as a tool and has a reason for keeping track of them may not care about the look of the box. I just think that the stencil and scribbled numbers came closer to end user as apposed to point of manufacture. My $.02 Mike in Lakewood CA *************************************************************************** From Ric We've been able to find no indication that Pan Am put numbers on their boxes. Remember also that Harold Gatty saw the Niku box and could make no sense of the numbers. So far all we know for certain is that: - Noonan owned at least one Ludolph. - The box containing Noonan's known Ludolph has the number 3547 written on the bottom. - The Ludolph sextant in that box has a much earlier serial number than 3547. - There are indications that the box was used for other instruments as well. - The box found on Niku had the number 3500 stenciled on it. - Ludolph at some time prior to 1952 made a product (we can't be sure it was a sextant) with the serial number 3500. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:51:38 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Drum questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt I measured > the surviving ring that was the top or bottom at 25 inches in diameter and > i estimated the original height of the barrel at about 50 inches. I wonder > if that conforms to some American or British standard. If so, it could be > a clue as to who put it there. There is a drum that is close. My fuel dump supplies were always delivered in 3 standard fuel drum sizes and as they are still in common use here, they should be in the US. Unfortunately although they are all the same capacity, local generic terminology makes it confusing. Oddly, I believe the metric (Litres) capacity is the fairly accurate one and the imperial/US have always been used locally in the respective areas for convenience. I suspect your drum might be the middle one. The drums supplied to Earhart are the last one. The first one is round, but happens to be the same capacity as the "Jerry Can". Common Name 4 imperial gallon/20 Litre/5 US gallon Common Name 12 imperial gallon/55 Litre/15 US gallon Common Name 44 Imperial gallon/200 Litre/55 US gallon My diesel came in 44 gallon, avgas came in 44 gallon, petrol came in 44 and 12 gallon, kerosene came in 12 and 4 gallon and oil came in 4 gallon. I don't remember which other combinations each fuel was available in. We ordered in the sizes that were convenient for our aircraft and transport vehicles and serviceability at our isolated fuel dumps. Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:01:35 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re Drum questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From ross devitt > From Ric > > Very odd, and now of course I wish I had paid closer attention to measuring > what was left of the barrel. It was really just an afterthought. I did > have the impression that the barrel was different than the ones we see up > in the village. I'll have to see what we have in the way of photos. Just curious, how did you estimate the height of the drum? I've only ever received bulk fuel and oil in the 3 sizes, although there are probably others available. Th' WOMBAT **************************************************************************** From Ric My measurment of the diameter of the top should be fairly accurate because more than fifty percent of the rim was present. Estimating the height was much shakier and is basically just a guess based upon the surviving fragments. **************************************************************************** From Richard Young FYI: A fifty-five gallon drum has the following dimensions: Outside height - 35 inches Inside height - 33 1/4 inches Diameter, inside 22 1/2 inches, outside 24 inches. This from numerous web locations. Ric, I suspect your remains are, in fact from a 55 gallon drum - you may be confusing that size with much larger drums that are sometimes used to hold fuel for boats and small ships, and sometimes military vehicles, that hold either 85 or 110 gallons. How confident of your height estimate are you? ************************************************************************** From Ric Not very. **************************************************************************** From Christian D > From Dan Postellon > > Someone has done a study of airplane auxiliary fuel tanks in the Pacific. > > After they were jettisoned, they often floated ashore, and were used as rain > > barrels and such. Is there any chance that this is what the "small barrel" > > was? Daniel Postellon > > ************************************************************************** > From Ric > > Not unless someone was using steel, flat-ended drums as airplane aux. tanks. > > ************************************************************************** > > Gee! I never thought of that one. But then an auxilliary aircraft tank might fit better the description of that "other" tank, for which we got a sketch recently. Ric, I can't remember exactly "which" tank that was? It was seen by the Coasties, I think... It was sort of flatish, set up on its narrow side... What was the shape of them aux tanks, Dan? Nicely streamlined, or just parallel sided, like in the sketch? Cheers. Christian D *************************************************************************** From Ric There is like zero chance that either the square tank or the barrel at the Seven Site is aviation-related. They're both made of steel and decidedly unaerodynamic. *************************************************************************** From Christain D >By that measure a drum with a 25 inch top and height of 50 inches > would be unusually big, not small. Well: if my calculator is correct, given a 22.5 by 35 drum at 55 gal, then, PROPORTIONALLY, a 25 by 50 drum is 97 gal (NOT 106, sorry...) Could it be a "2-barrel" drum??? 2times 42 being 84... But then does everybody measure inside? May be you have a "tank", not a drum, Ric? As for dead space: my experience with modern plastic jerry jugs is that they can be forced to take quite a bit more than what is stamped on the side. Ditto with the plastic drum I sometime use. I would'nt be surprised by a 10% or so air space -but then I am not qualified as a "Drum Choir" player... Christian D PS: this being Tighar, when is the "Drum Choir" going to be set up? ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (rly-yb03.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.3]) by air-yb05.mail.aol.com (v84.10) with ESMTP id MAILINYB51-0411064322; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 06:43:22 -0500 Received: from home.ease.lsoft.com (home.ease.lsoft.com [209.119.1.31]) by rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (v84.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYB36-0411064307; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 06:43:07 -0400 Received: from home (home.ease.lsoft.com) by home.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <3.FD43788E@home.ease.lsoft.com>; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 6:43:07 -0400 Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com by home.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <7.FD63F983@home.ease.lsoft.com>; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 6:42:07 -0400 Received: from WO1V@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id 5.47.1b4a2a1d (4571) for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 06:42:02 -0400 (EDT) From: WO1V@aol.com Message-ID: <47.1b4a2a1d.29e6c27a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 06:42:02 EDT Subject: Re: Drum questions To: EARHARTFORUM@home.ease.lsoft.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 22 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:02:32 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: KC Star article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Lawrence I don't think anyone on this Forum is suggesting one state in the union is better than the other. I believe they were just "poking" fun because things are a little slow now. Let us keep our heads and keep the main objective in sight. Thanks, Lawrence from California, the best state in the Union. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:07:32 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: sextant research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Thomas Van Hare Mike Van Holsbeck wrote: > I am more fascinated with the fact that no sextant boxes with numbers > stenciled on them were found when looking for possible matches let alone > anything with a sequence in the 35xx range.... except one that used to > belong to a guy named Fred Noonan. Hmmmmm Actually, and I'll have to check on this, but I recall that last year we also found US Navy records of four digit issue numbers for such equipment in the same general range of 3500. The USN, as you probably know, loves stenciling on everything they can and numbered and cataloged everything as well. Sadly, we can't find the BuNav or BuAir records for issuing sextants/octants -- probably destroyed -- even if we did find the ones for watches (yes, they even numbered the watches when issuing them!). ************************************************************************* From Ric If it was the Navy's practice to stencil inventory numbers on sextant boxes it should be easy to find examples. Our experience has been that government issue sextants came in boxes with little brass plates that specified the model and serial number. Thomas Van Hare HistoricWings.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:12:27 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: sextant research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom Strang Forum: Were there Ludolph navigation instruments on board Norwich City at the time of her grounding? Respectfully: Tom Strang *************************************************************************** From Ric We don't know and there is probably no way to find out. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:09:28 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: sextant research MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Christian Moin Ric. I disagree with the idea of the outsourced boxes. In those years companies were proud to deliver "the whole thing" out of their house. Remember the patents a fellow forumite cited some days ago. One of them dealt with the way to fix a sextant in the box, which shows that Ludolph cared a lot for the boxes. Regards Christian *************************************************************************** From Ric I tend to agree. Even the term "outsource" is very recent. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:56:39 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re Drum questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mark in Horse Country > Christian D > > PS: this being Tighar, when is the "Drum Choir" > going to be set up? > Err, wouldn't "drum corps" be a bit more musically appropriate? :-) Mark in Horse Country ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:57:51 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: drum questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From angus murray Christian, > Well: if my calculator is correct, given a 22.5 by 35 drum at 55 gal, then, > PROPORTIONALLY, a 25 by 50 drum is 97 gal (NOT 106, sorry...) This is only true if you use internal dimensions. However, you are comparing apples with pears. The 97 represents a nominal capacity, the 106 represents a total capacity. (You should be saying 97 gal NOT 85 gal ) I assumed Ric used external dimensions (because generally they're easier to measure) and then proportionally the NOMINAL size is 85 gallons for a 25 x 50 external size drum as compared with a 24 x 35 external size 55 gallon drum. However, this allows no free space. If the percentage free is the same as for the 55 gal drum (20% approx) then 0.2 x 106 = 21, 106 -21 = 85 as before. Regards Angus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:24:38 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Ea