======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:39:35 EDT Subject: Re: Lamb experiment From Roger Smith The email mentioned two kinds of flies on the meat so far. There's no living thing on Niku but crabs and they die in the water. How do files live on Niku with nothing to eat or to lay eggs on? The occasional bird that might die there? Roger ========================== I dunno where you got your information about life on Niku. The place is dirty with wildlife --- birds, rats, lizards, seven or eight different kinds of crabs, at least two of which are land crabs, and then there's the normal washup detritus any beach accumulates. Lots for flies to live on. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:46:30 EDT Subject: Re: time zones From Dennis McGee Thanks to Marty Moleski for the three links on the International Date Line The best map, IMHO is http://www.worldtimezone.com/time-oceania.htm which shows the geography and time zones in Oceania. I'm trying to find Niku on that map but my geography for that area is lousy. Niku is at approximately 4 degrees 40 minute South and 174 degrees 32 minutes West. Using the above map, that puts Niku by my calculations just a smidgen north of the "T" in Tokelau. Am I in the neighborhood? And the departure point, Pago Pago, is at about the "S" in American Samoa? LTM, who uses mint jelly on her legs of lamb Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================= Dennis, looking at that map I'm not quite sure what the little dots are... doesn't look quite right to me. But we had a wonderful volunteer do new maps for us for the website. Check out http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Mapsindex.html especially the LOP map, and compare it to the timezone map and maybe we can figure this out. P ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:48:50 EDT Subject: Re: Pogo's "Great Pogini" takes on the Expedition From Pete Gray I'm not sure about Pogo, but there was a "remote viewer" on the Art Bell show that said the expedition is on the wrong island. According to this guy, the Electra is in shallow water at Koria Atoll, south of Tarawa. Maybe he'd be so kind as to tell us how the Catspaw heel got to Niku? LTM Pete #2419 =================================== Oh dear.... well, psychics are amusing, at least. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:50:33 EDT Subject: Re: time zones From Herman De Wulf Which, as I see it, proves the wisdom of the aviation world by simplifying matters and use UTC. LTM from Herman (#2406) From Pat > Having debated the nature of truth, and the nature of logic, it somehow makes > sense that now the Forum should debate the nature of time.... > > The Date Line is one of those things that I use without necessarily spending > a lot of time understanding it. Computers and automobiles fall into this > category as well. Pretty interesting stuff. > > Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:51:28 EDT Subject: Re: Tracking the TIGHARs From David Potenzano I put my map in a frame with a clear palstic cover and use a wax pencil to note the grids and what is happening in them. Wax pencil is easy to erase if and when I make corrections or updates.(or mistakes) I'm sure I did'nt invent the wheel here but just thought I'd pass it along. LTM David Potenzano #1611(I think) ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:54:44 EDT Subject: Re: time zones From Stuart Allsop This is kind of off-topic, but an interesting curiosity nevertheless. Looking at those maps, I just noticed that since the Kiribati change to the International Date Line, it is now possible to fly in a straight line (or rather, on a great circle), from French Polynesia to a point north of the Marshall Islands (or vice versa), and cross the international date line SEVEN TIMES along the way! And it would only take you a couple of hours to do it. So, in theory, you could leave after you already arrived, cross several checkpoints both before you left and after you arrived, then end up arriving before you left! If that doesn't confuse you about this issue, then nothing will! Stuart ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:58:16 EDT Subject: Re: time zones From Jon Watson Let me see if I understand this time travel business ..... You and Ric are having breakfast and lunch at different times on different days together and Pogo says this trip is the one (Kings - X - just to be sure I don't jinx anything) .... Just because I am equally and as easily confused by map coordinates, as I look at the plan, you reference the 7 Site, at coordinates EV29 (September 1 entry). My chart must have suffered from continental drift, though, because that seems to be in the water. ? Fascinating stuff on how quickly the local fauna attacked the meat. It will be really interesting to see what happens. Let the team know we think they're doing a great job! A number of people at my workplace have been dropping by to find out the latest, and I've been giving out the website address. ltm jon ============================ Sorry, sorry.... that should have been E R 29. It's correct in my notes, just a typo. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:59:00 EDT Subject: Re: Tracking the TIGHARs From Jon Watson This is interesting. I mounted my map on whiteboard, and got some of those translucent sticky strips with the pointed arrow end (buck and a half in assorted colors) and am sticking them directly on the map. With a fine point marker I can label the strip to remind me what's going on where. By the way, I meant to mention that the plaques came out looking really great. ltm jon ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:00:38 EDT Subject: Re: search plan From Alan Caldwell Pat, tell Ric I fully understand how the carefully planned mission is working and I am very impressed with the whole scenario. You may also tell him I am quite anxious to know the results of the meat experiment -- even moreso than finding out whether the rusty pixels on the sat. photo are Electra parts or just some old rusty 50 gallon drums stuck in the the crevis. (Just a friendly dig) Alan still in Austin =========================== Even worse, they seem to be algae. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:22:55 EDT Subject: Re: time zones From Marty Moleski From Dennis McGee > ... I'm trying to find Niku on that map but my > geography for that area is lousy. > Niku is at approximately 4 degrees 40 minute South and 174 degrees > 32 minutes West. ... Here is a map of Kiribati: http://www.maps.com/cgi-bin/search/hyperseek.cgi?search=CAT&Category=Pacific+O cean:Kiribati You'll probably have to cut and paste to get the whole URL on one line. :o( Here's another map showing Kiribati, the Phoenix Islands, AND the date line: http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/kiribati.htm This map makes a nice distinction: they say the date line is 180 degrees, but note that all the islands within Kiribati observe the same date, even though they are on the other side of the line. Marty #2359 ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:24:42 EDT Subject: Re: search plan From Don Iwanski Do you know if they have any plans to bring back a bottle of that rust colored fungus stuff and have it analyzed? =========================== They haven't said anything about it. Algae are pretty obviously living organisms and the divers are familiar with the different varieties. The rusty red color is pretty common. P ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:30:33 EDT Subject: Dailies From Mike Allen What am I doing wrong? When I go to the daily report page it is only showing August 27 and 28. ================================ Many ISPs/browsers only truly refresh web pages if they aren't busy. AOL is *the worst* about this, as I know to my sorrow; Explorer is much better, and Netscape is o.k. But it can be an ISP problem too, or a server farther up the line. Try clearing your browser cache, which will force your ISP to load whatever it has that is most recent. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:31:43 EDT Subject: Divine Providence From Doug Brutlag Wow Pat! Talk about divine providence! I say let's add a new nickname for Ric....... Monty Hall would be appropriate(you know the, the "let's make a deal dude?) A chopper tour, hydralic fluid, and 3 tuna. Cool! The windfall of this scenario would rank the cost of another expedition-and that doesn't include the hydralic or the fish! A fortunate turn of events indeed. You are going to put together Niku IV-The Video for the rest of us aren't you? This I gotta see-good debt retirement material! Hope Ric & company enjoyed some good barbequed tuna. Doug Brutlag #2335 ================================== I suspect there will be a highlights film, yes. And forget barbecue. Can you say sashimi? Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 22:09:49 EDT Subject: Relief aboard the Electra From David Robinson I am enjoying reading the 8th Edition. A question occurred to me. Did the Electra have an automatic pilot? How did AE take "bathroom breaks?" Something had to rigged up for a 20+ hour flight. Could any of the that explain why they make have drifted a bit off course? LTM, David #2333 ============================ I have a feeling this was covered some time ago, but I am so far behind on the Highlights I'll never catch up. Does anyone remember? P ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 22:13:42 EDT Subject: yachties, castaways and pirates From Dan Postellon A helicopter from a tuna boat wasn't exactly what I had in mind, but picking up an old thread, there could have been other people who landed on Nikumaroro that we don't know about. Dan Postellon TIGHAR #2263 ======================== I suspect that lots of people call in there briefly over a decade or so, but there's really not much happenin' and not much reason to stay long. P ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 22:14:46 EDT Subject: Re: Divine Providence From Kerry Tiller > I suspect there will be a highlights film, yes. And forget barbecue. Can you > say sashimi? > > Pat Ahhh, maguro sashimi. My favorite. I don't suppose the crew had the foresight to pack some wasabi? LTM (who likes hers with shredded daikon) Kerry Tiller ================================ Yup, lots of fixin's aboard. Fresh fish is a major part of the diet on expedition, for obvious reasons. P ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 22:19:13 EDT Subject: daily up Hi kids, I have put up the new daily report. The single page format was getting to be too unwieldy and was going to take forever to download, so I'm splitting into one week per page segments. Today starts a new week. Go to http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/dailies2.html -----> here's Pat checking the spelling of TIGHAR <--------- That will be good until next Sunday, when the current page will become dailies3.html and so on ad infinitum. Can't top the helicopter, though. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:12:20 EDT Subject: Re: Relief aboard the Electra From Jon Watson The Electra was equipped with a Sperry Pilot, a sort of rudimentary (by today's standards) automatic pilot, which would provide somewhat of a break from having to physically drive the thing all the time. Also, Fred was a licensed pilot, and I am sure that for the time it took to make necessary trips back to the biff, he could watch what was going on with no difficulty. We already know he seemed to prefer to ride up front, rather than in the back. ltm, jon 2266 ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:16:11 EDT Subject: Re: Relief aboard the Electra From Marty Moleski David Robinson wrote: > I am enjoying reading the 8th Edition. A question occurred to me. Did the > Electra have an automatic pilot? How did AE take "bathroom breaks?" > Something > had to rigged up for a 20+ hour flight. Could any of the that explain why they > make have drifted a bit off course? First the answer to your question (a reprint from Ric on 11/20/00): >How good was the Electra autopilot? Could it maintain a preset >heading and altitude? Yes. >Was it safe to leave the cockpit for brief periods with the plane under >its control? That's a tough one. There's no reference to Earhart ever doing that but there should also be no need. Fred seems to have ridden up front most of the time anyway and if AE needed to go back and use the "can" (for example) it seems like it would make sense to have Fred at least sit there and monitor the autopilot. I'm not familiar with a Dalton Mark VII Navigation Computer. Anybody? LTM, Ric Second, method of finding answers like this: read the whole archive of Forum Highlights (which I've done). Then try to locate answers by the use of http://www.google.com. In this case, I searched for "www.tighar.org autopilot electra." Marty #2359 ====================================== Unfortunately, I am so far behind with the highlights ... They are only complete up through January 01. I keep thinking I'll have time to get back to them.... oh well. We do have complete archives which can be sent as attached .txt files. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:17:10 EDT Subject: Re: relief aboard the Electra From Herman de Wulf >From Herman De Wulf (#2406) There was a Sperry automatic pilot which was controlled by the gyro and not slaved to the magnetic compass. As for the bathroom, there was a toilet as there was in all Lockheed 10s. It was installed in the rear of the cabin, to the port side and next to the cabin door. Interestingly its use tended to interfere with the stability of the aircraft as one can discover when going to www.acfamily.net which is dedicated to the Air Canada Lockheed 10A (CF-TCC) which still flies. It contains an interesting report on the delivery flight and contains useful information on engine performance. LTM from Herman ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:17:36 EDT Subject: Re: relief From Herman De Wulf Sorry, I have been too quick off the mark again. WWW.ACFAMILY.NET have changed their address into WWW.ACFAMILY.ORG. Click on the picture of the Electra, then click on "A Classy Lady" for details on flying the Lockheed 10 (including use of the toilet). LTM from Herman (#2406) ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:18:49 EDT Subject: Visitations to Niku From Jim Clark The Australian Army visited each island in the Phoenix chain , including Gardner, in 1985 , during manoeuvres to re-establish their geodetic coordinates for the new World wide GPS system, in OPERATION ANON. There are probably countless others , military and civilian that nobody knows about, as nobody is stationed there with a visitor's logbook 24 hours a day, to check , as per the recent revelations about the Australian tug and the dive by its skipper for possible artifacts. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:19:28 EDT Subject: Re: Yachties and visitations From Andy Shaw <<>> This has been on my mind for some time. The can label fragment is excellent evidence of this. Fortunately this sort of brief visit is insufficient to explain away items such as plexiglas/aluminum etc. LTM, Andy ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:20:43 EDT Subject: Island vs. atoll From Marjorie Smith An advance reading copy of "Amelia Earhart's Shoe" serendipitously fell into my hands and I read it coincidentally as the newest expedition sailed from Pago Pago to Nikumaroro. I thoroughly enjoyed the book--it took me far from my current Rocky Mountain existence back to the Pacific where I lived more than 30 years ago (1963-1970, Guam, Saipan and travelling throughout Micronesia). I am also the author of an about-to-be-published novel that is very loosely tied to Amelia's disappearance, so have read most of the earlier books on the subject. I have only one small point to cavil with in King, etal.'s book: In my days in Micronesia there was little if any use of the word "island" to refer to an atoll. "Island" was interchangeable with "islet" and the whole shebang collected around the lagoon was "atoll." For instance, if you were on Ebeye in the Kawajalein atoll and someone said they were going across the island or to the north end of the island they meant they were going across Ebeye or to the northern edge of Ebeye, not across the atoll or to the northern part of the atoll. Granted, this usage makes more sense in a huge atoll like Kwaj, where there are long spaces on the reef with no connection between islets, at least during high tide. But what if this was the usage on Nikumaroro in the 1940s, particularly by Gallagher? What if when he said the skeleton was found on the southeast end of the island he meant that piece of land between the two channels into the lagoon, the piece of land (island?) on which the village and the government center were located? Then you folks should be looking there instead of way down in the Ameriki area. Probably a thought you've already had and discarded and I, as a writer and editor, am only led astray by editorial decisions made in putting King's book together. But just in case this is a new idea . . . Best wishes for success! Marjorie Smith -- Marjorie Smith Yokoi Books PO Box 7314 Bozeman, MT 59771 406-587-8947 ======================================== An interesting thought. Gallagher et al had a lot of experience with Tarawa, which is much more like Kwajelein, so you may have a point. Niku consists of two islets and presents much more of a solid picture than the larger atolls. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:26:59 EDT Subject: Surviving Electra From Herman de Wulf I just had a look at the list of surviving Lockheed Electra's on the TIGHAR website and I haste me to announce that the # 10 aircraft, of which TIGHAR believes the status to be unknown, is in fact alive and kicking and flying. I just bought the latest issue of "Air Enthusiast", a high quality British aviation publication which has a feature story with beautiful pictures on it and by the way says there are "at least 13 examples (Lockheed 10) known to be in existence, of which three are in airworthy condition". The magazine's story is on the one airworthy Australian Lockheed 10A the July/August issue (no 94). The aircraft is VH-UZO and is one of the original Lockheed 10B delivered to AnsettAirways. It is one of only two surviving "down under" and the only one flying. In all 15 have been delivered by Lockheed down under to Guinea Airways, Ansett Airways, MacRobertson Miller Airlines, Quantas, Union Airways of New Zealand and Trans Island Airways. Eight aircraft were eventually written off in accidents. One was destroyed in a hangar fire. Of the six that survived, three were withdrawn from use and scrapped. One was exported to the US. Of the two surviving "down under" today, one is ZK-BUT which is preserved in the Museum of Transport and Technology in Auckland, New Zealand. The other is VH-UZO. It was acquired by Sydney based businessman Laurie Ogle around 1981, who undertook a time consuming restoration job which was a work of love. It included the re-engining the aircraft since spares for the original Wright Whirlwind engines were hard to come. Receiving Pratt & Whitney R-985 Wasp Juniors the Lockheed 10B became a Lockheed 10A. Acording to the magazine it played a role in a TV movie that paid tribute to Australian pioneer Sidney Cotton. He was the guy who flew covert spy operations over Germany in a Lockheed 12A Electra Junior, converted into a "spy plane", in 1938-39. Anyone who loves Electras should read the story. If the magazine is hard to find in the US or Australia, give my a shout. I'll let you know "Air Enthusiast's" address. Their website is www.airenthusiast.com. Herman (#2406) ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:28:41 EDT Subject: Re: island vs atoll From Ross Devitt Marjorie Smith wrote: > I have only one small point to cavil with in King, etal.'s book: In my days > in Micronesia there was little if any use of the word "island" to refer to > an atoll. "Island" was interchangeable with "islet" and the whole shebang > collected around the lagoon was "atoll." For instance, if you were on Ebeye > in the Kawajalein atoll and someone said they were going across the island > or to the north end of the island they meant they were going across Ebeye > or to the northern edge of Ebeye, not across the atoll or to the northern > part of the atoll. Granted, this usage makes more sense in a huge atoll > like Kwaj, where there are long spaces on the reef with no connection > between islets, at least during high tide. > > But what if this was the usage on Nikumaroro in the 1940s, particularly by > Gallagher? What if when he said the skeleton was found on the southeast end > of the island he meant that piece of land between the two channels into the > lagoon, the piece of land (island?) on which the village and the government > center were located? Then you folks should be looking there instead of way > down in the Ameriki area. I think part of the reason the search has been in the Aukeraime and "7" sites is the reference in Gallagher's notes to a small stand of coconut palms growing less than 2 miles from where the bones were found. Bauareke Passage to the Main Passage is only about a mile. RossD ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:35:07 EDT Subject: Re: island vs. atoll From Jon Watson Wasn't the smaller channel blasted through much later? That being the case, when Gallagher was there, except for the main channel, the island was contiguous. Perhaps someone can refresh my memory. ltm jon ===================== Different channel. There are two passages from the ocean into the lagoon at Niku: Tatiman Passage, which is the one up by Nutiran and is the one you can get a small boat through at high tide; and Bauareke Passage, which is on the south side of the island and is non-navigable but wade-able. These are both natural features. The "channel" is the landing blasted through the reef up to the beach --- it doesn't pass through into the lagoon. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:56:24 EDT Subject: Lagoon From Lawrence Talbot I have been reading the daily reports with great interest. I understand that there is a crew at the "7" site, grave site, and the divers are working the reef north of the Norwich City, but what's going on with the Lagoon? ========================= The divers are finishing up the reef work today and will probably begin diving in the lagoon tomorrow. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:57:27 EDT Subject: Re: surviving Electras From Ross Devitt For Herman I was following the restorastion of the Aussie Electra and I might have some jpegs still. Things like the first engine run ups etc. If I haven't lost it in my last hard drive shuffle I might even have the website address. Th' WOMBAT ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:57:52 EDT Subject: Re: Surviving Electras From Ross Devitt again For Herman, The website was: www.adastron.com/lockheed/electra/vh-uzo.htm It had a little of the history of the aircraft and about the restoration. Th. WOMBAT ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:02:43 EDT Subject: Re: Island vs atoll From Denise Re: Majorie Smith's letter "Island vs. atoll" please keep in mind that once again someone is making the mistake of "thinking like an American". Smith is talking about the American Pacific, Gallagher is in the British Pacific. Remember, you say Tomayto, we say Tomahto ... you say spanner; we say monkey wrench ... or is that the other way round. (Never having much to do with either spanners or monkey wrenches, I wouldn't know.) As a fellow member of The British Colonial Service - albeit just an associate member --- I'd have to say we used to use the word "Island" to refer to the whole she-bang ... islands, atolls, islets, eyots ... yup, all of them were just called "islands" - oh, except if it were a sand-bar! A sand-bar was called a sand-bar if it were small and a sand-bank if it were larger! But, for the rest ... "island" covered everything. LTM (who called a spade a "garden-digging-thingy") Denise ========================== You say spanner, we say wrench... you say boot, we say trunk... you say bonnet, we say hood... Two people separated by a common language. Thanks for the reminder. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:06:05 EDT Subject: Earhart wannabes From Dennis McGee AE is back in the news again -- or at least her accomplishments are. Carlene Mendienta of Sonoma, California, is retracing AE's 1928 cross-country trip in an Avro Avian, the same type of plane Amelia used originally for the trip. Details are in this morning's USA Today on page 10A. A more detailed picture of the plane and trip are in this month's edition of Air Classics (AKA Air "Comix") magazine, which is in fine kiosks the world over. Maybe the next reenactment will be a couple of AE's prang jobs, eh? LTM, who's an original Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:06:36 EDT Subject: Earhart wannabes From Tom Van Hare I picked this up today from one of my wire sources and thought I would pass it on: WOMAN TRACES AMELIA EARHART'S ROUTE WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. -- Playing the part of Amelia Earhart -- right down to the same aircraft, jodhpurs, boots and antique goggles -- a woman pilot departed from Westchester on Wednesday to replicate the celebrated aviator's record-breaking, 5,000-mile route flown 73 years ago. Carlene Mendieta, 47, a California periodontist who collects and flies antique airplanes, was hand-picked -- because of her aviation skills and similarity to Earhart -- to attract interest in aviation and Earhart, who mysteriously disappeared during a flight over the Pacific Ocean in 1937. "When people think about Amelia Earhart, they think about her last flight, maybe the last few minutes of her last flight," Herrick said. "So her first long-distance flight is the flight that we're about to recreate following the exact same route that Amelia did." --- The full story can be read online at: http://www.channeloklahoma.com/okl/news/stories/news-94615120010905-100914.htm l Thomas Van Hare Publisher & CEO http://www.HistoricWings.com/ ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:08:06 EDT Subject: Tatiman passage From Roger Kelley Are there any projections as to when the Dive Team will venture into Tatiman Passage? Diving in Tatiman Passage provokes several questions. 1. During what point in the tidal cycle will the dives be made? 2. During high tide, how deep is the most shallow point? 3. Where is the most shallow point? 4. What type of currents are anticipated in the Passage? 5. Will the entire passage be searched? 6. How far into the lagoon will the search proceed? LTM, Roger Kelley ============================ Wow, a whole list of questions to which I do not know the answers. However, I know that they are planning on moving in that direction soon so perhaps I can learn the answers and pass them on to you. I don't think *anyone* knows the answers to 2, 3, or 4 yet. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:11:32 EDT Subject: A question from Ric for the Forum Research time, gang. In doing metal detector work around the Seven site the team has come upon some .22 calibre shell casings, longs, with a "P" on the base. Gallagher had a .22 pistol. Could someone who has a copy of the inventory of his effects please look at see what make it was? We think we remember it was a Colt. Also, if someone could look into .22 Longs with a P on the base we would be very appreciative. Post to Forum. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:14:13 EDT Subject: Re: A question from Ric for the forum Got lots of answers to this one: From Arnie Dabelow: The P on the 22 Casings stands for Peters Cartridge Div. Bridgeport, Conn. ------------------------------------------- The P on the base would most probably indicate that it was made by Peters. R.L."Doc" Holloway ------------------------------------------- I believe that a P means Peters, of Remington-Peters fame. Jeff Bolen ------------------------------------------- As a quick answer --- the "P" on the base of the .22 long casing probably stands for Peters or maybe Remmington Peters. I'll check in more detail tonight when I get home. BTW: It might be a good idea to keep the shells because there are almost certainly extractor, ejector, and head space marks that may help to "finger print" the casing to a particular brand and/or type of firearm. I know that forensic techniques of this type were used by archaeologists at the Little Bighorn to recreate certain sequences of events, etc, etc. It might be a good idea to get a professional opinion on this point by contacting a "real cop" such a Roger Kelley (from the Tells peak course/expidition this summer) Regards: Fred Madio ---------------------------------------- I did some quick looking on the net. anymore than just a "P" to go on? With just one letter, indication could be for "pebble powder" or the final proffmark on US cartridges. OR.... Peters Cartridge Co 1887-1934, then part of Remington after. station mark for Pembroke, Wales Poole (if P is in circle) Are the casings center- or rim-fire? LTM (who knows "WD" headstamps mean WW2 War Department) Pete #2419 --------------------------------------- In my novice opinion/guess... P is for Peters Cartidge Company out of Kings Mills, OH USA (?) Aren't 22 longs for long rifles? (again, I'm a novice in these things). LTM Christopher Ferro (2447) ---------------------------------------- I used .22 ammunition as a kid and the brand I used was "Peters" which had a "P" stamped on the base of the cartridge. Hope this will be helpful. Mike Haddock #2438 ------------------------------------------ The "P" on the base of the .22 cal shell casing may indicate the ammunition was manufactured by Peters. The manufacture of the pistol or revolver has no bearing on the manufacture of the ammunition fired so long as the ammunition was designed for that specific weapon. For example, a Colt .22 cal revolver will fire .22 cal short, long and long rifle ammunition. These three types of .22 cal. ammunition have been manufactured in the past and are presently manufactured by at least a dozen companies. Most important, .22 cal weapons are one of the most popular small arms in the world and have been popular for at least 100 + years. The fact that Gallagher is reputed to have owned a .22 cal revolver or pistol is moot unless Gallagher's weapon is available for examination and firing. By firing the weapon, shell case markings can be compared to the markings on the artifact recovered. If the markings on the artifact match those on the expended shell of a cartridge fired by Gallagher's weapon, under controlled conditions, the only statement or deduction absolute is that Gallagher's weapon fired the cartridge which produced the expended shell casing found at the 7 site. We would still be faced with several questions. Who fired Gallagher's weapon? Why was Gallagher's weapon fired? When was Gallagher's weapon fired? However, my optimism prevails. Based on 30 years of police experience which involved numerous investigations involving firearms and my own personal experience, I can't think of a better weapon to use when dispatching small game such as large birds, (gulls on land or in flight), turtles and fish in shallow waters. The .22 caliber pistol, revolver or rifle fits the bill to a "T". The abundant remains of small game in the vicinity of where the artifact was recovered leads me to believe that a .22 cal weapon was used to dispatch some, if not all of the game. LTM, Roger Kelley, 2112CE ------------------------------------------------- The "P'" on the base of the shell casing means it was manufactured by Peters. Ammunition. These people manufactured a lot of ammunition in the early years. Bruce Yoho -------------------------------------------------- The "P" stands for Peters, which is a US cartridge company. Other US 22 cal cartriges are marked H (for Henry) or U. I doubt that Gallagher would have US ammunition, but maybe the Australian or New Zealand members of the forum could tell us how local ammunition is marked (headstamped). Daniel Postellon LTM (Who only shoots centerfires!) TIGHAR # 2263 ------------------------------------------------- It is my recollection that the "P" stands for Peters Ammunition. This is how I remember this marking, from my rabbit hunting days, long ago. Charlie Sivert, 0269E --------------------------------------------- Look in Niku Source Book #2, effects of Gallagher: .22 Colt Automatic, 3.5 boxes .22 cartridges. Cheers. Randy Jacobson ------------------------------------------------- Something to consider. If I remember correctly some brands of .22 long cartridges have a "crimp" line around the circumference of the case around half way along. The crimp is to denote a low velocity round which is more suitable to pistols. I don't recall specifically which brands but I suspect Winchester. I also don't know whether any other markings were used to differentiate between super and sub sonic rounds. On the other hand as I type this I'm going through my old .22 cartridges. As you'll know private gun ownership has all but been banned in Australia and these are just a handful of rounds I haven't disposed of. I do have some pistol shorts and they have a "H" branded into the base, as do the crimped subsonic longs. The other brands on the .22s are "T" unless it's turned upside down - in which case it may be an anchor. There's "W" (Winchester) and a "double triangle". *** AHA! the collection also includes some with a "P" on the base !! They appear to be .22 long rifle, but I'll check the load. I guess Ric doesn't have internet access out there so I can't put a scan up for him to compare? Th' WOMBAT Ross Devitt --------------------------------------------- Hmmm A little brass polish and my "P" on the bases of the cartridges are really "F" with the top almost closed by a serif :-( Maybe I should have cleaned the cases first.. Th' WOMBAT --------------------------------------------- I checked my reference, Frank C. Barnes, Cartridges of the World, 1965. The cartridge case of the .22 long and the .22 long rifle are identical. Many pistols fire .22 long rifle cartridges, and it is probably the most widely used rifle or pistol cartridge in the world. The only one I can find was manufactured by Federal, and has the base marked (headstamped) with an "F". I'm pretty sure that those manufactured by Winchester are "H" for Henry and ones made by Peters are headstamped "P" Are you sure that Gallagher didn't have a Webley, maybe a .455 revolver? Daniel Postellon TIGHAR # 2263 ==================================== Wow. OK, let's see about some of the questions. Randy looked it up in the inventory and it's definitely a Colt .22 Automatic. I know that the ammunition we put in the .22 target pistol (12 shot clip, IIRC) and the .22 rifle for rabbit hunting came out of the same box and that is the sum total of my knowledge about guns and ammunition. Other than the rabbits were tasty and I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. The USCG chaps had M-1 carbines, and those shells are easy to spot. The .22 was pretty anomalous... not exactly military issue, but perfect of course for birds. Anyway, I'll let Ric know what you guys said. Many thanks! Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:22:43 EDT Subject: "P" on .22 casing From Christina Chreyts When you said "P" on the base, I envisoned the edge where the primer is. The letter and numbers there are refered to as the "headstamp". My father suggests "peters cartridge company"..their ammunition facility was in Ohio and they were purchased by Remington in 1934. "P" was their "headstamp" from 1887-1934 (before the buyout). A quick search on the net shows that Peters did have a contract to produce .303 rounds for the British during WWI. http://kile_r.tripod.com/uscenter1.htm provides a listing of headstamps and corresponding vendors and dates. There was at least one other that used "P"--Polte--a German company. http://home.hetnet.nl/~supersmit/ww1/stamps1.html#headstamps is another reference source for headstamps and mentions only Peters and Polte using the P and it appears that the casings may have been slightly different...these people may can tell the difference. Hogg's "The Cartridge Guide" might offer more info. If we can get a picture of the casing, we can try to match it. christy creyts ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:23:43 EDT Subject: Re: Island vs atoll From Dick Pingrey Discussing the differences in our common English language is a wonderful diversion. I was struck by those differences when visiting the UK, Australia, India and New Zealand We never want to lose sight of the fact that it is the ideas and intent that counts and not the specific words. I will never forget driving in rural England and seeing a sign for "Pub Grub" or being told that a field of wheat was a "Corn Field". Fortunately, I never had to take my car to a "Smash Repair Shop". I love British humor even though my wife couldn't stand Benny Hill. I wonder why? Denise's explanation does give meaning to Colonial Service written material that we might not other wise fully understand. Once again we all learn from the exchange of ideas on the Forum. LTM (Who always called a Spade a shovel) Dick Pingrey 908C ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:24:54 EDT Subject: Post lost radio calls From Alan Caldwell This is old news I'm sure but haven't checked the web site to be sure yet. My daughter lives in sydney and researched the Sydney Morning Herald for me from July 3 to the 13th for 1937. Most she has to send me via snail mail but didn't see anything new. The few tidbits she included in her email included one reference to a post loss message I'm afraid I didn't recall. It follows: 7/6/37, pg.11 - "...the Howland Island radio station heard signals at 5:15 o'clock this morning, eastern standard time (8:15pm Sydney time), from Mrs. Putnam..." Alan #2329 ====================== Randy, did you have this one? P ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:26:26 EDT Subject: "P" on .22 casing From Don Neumann Maybe some of the Coast Guard guys had their own personal .22s for target practice or shooting any 'varmints' found on the island... to overcome the boredom of such an isolated tour of duty ? Don Neumann sandon@webtv.net =============================== Dick? ... somehow it seems unlikely that a military unit would permit personal weapons, but I could be wrong about that. P ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:33:49 EDT Subject: "P" on .22 casing From Fred Madio Does Randy have any more information on the "Colt automatic" such as model number and/or serial number? This information -- if available -- would provide some useful information about the shape, size, and location(s) of firing pin marks plus extractor and ejector marks on a spent casing. This information, in turn, would provide a means of creating a "generic finger print" (to coin a phrase) for such a round. If the artifact that Ric picked up happened to match such a generic finger print, then the argument that Gallagher's weapon was at the 7 site is strengthened somewhat, but all the questions raise by Roger Kelley would still remain unresolved. Regards, Fred Madio +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Randy? ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:12:31 EDT Subject: Re: "P" on .22 casing From Randy Jacobson The source of information was from the listing of personal effects left behind by Gallagher. All it stated was that it was a 22 automatic. I did not do an exhaustive review of the material, but quickly scanned it to see if a pistol was indeed part of his effects. The source material is in NIKU Source Book #2. Pat has a copy... ============================ All it says is 1 Colt .22 automatic 3 1/2 packs .22 cartridges No further details. I will see if I can get my act together and post the entire effects list as a Document of the Week next week. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:14:09 EDT Subject: Re: Island vs atoll From Marie Rains I wasn't looking for it, but I happened to read what seems to answer this question: the Kanawa Point article (from 12/1998). http://www.tighar.org/TTracks/14_2/14-2Kanawa.html It says, in part, "Tom King, our Senior Archeologist, pointed out that Nikumaroro is actually an atoll made up of two islands.... He wondered if Gallagher may have been referring to the southeast side of the westernmost of the two islands." The "Gallagher's Clues" bulletin from 3/10/00 discusses why looking at Kanawa Point is now lower priority. http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Bulletins/3_10_00bull.html ===================== Thanks, Marie. You get the gold star for "Familiarity With the TIGHAR Website" this week. Better than *my* familiarity, and I'm the one who put most of that stuff up there.... Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:16:25 EDT Subject: Firearms and AE From Dave Osgood All of the excellent feedback on the .22 caliber shell issue begs for a question. Did AE ever carry a firearm on any of her escapades? IF so, is it possible she used it for hunting small prey at the Seven Site? Since it appears as though Peters stopped making rounds with a "P" in 1934, it seems as though we're looking at the use of a round that could be at least 3 years old if AE had a firearm. Otherwise, the age of the round might be a bit older at the time of firing: 5 years for the New Zealanders in '39, 6 years for Gallagher in '40, or up to 11 years for the Coast Guardsmen, or? I don't have any experience with ammunition, but is there a timeframe for safe storing and use before disposal? Does it make sense that someone would be using a round that could be 5, 10, or 15+ years old? But then again if Arundel's group had a .22 caliber firearm, all bets are off... Dave Osgood =========================== Well, there's nothing in any of the biographies about AE ever shooting any gun. She was a self-proclaimed pacifist, for what that's worth. Modern ammunition keeps fairly well, I know. I personally tend to suspect Gallagher since we *know* he had both pistol and ammunition for it. Anyone? Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:20:52 EDT Subject: Re: "P" on .22 cartridge From Rollin Reineck Don't forget that Earhart carried a gun. Although, she claims she left it at Lae, maybe that was just part of a conspiracy. ================================ And what is the source for this? I don't recall any mention of guns. A flare pistol, yes, but not a gun.. but perhaps my memory is faulty? Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:22:08 EDT Subject: Re: Post loss radio calls From Randy Jacobson This is interesting. First, EST is +5 GMT, and Sydney is -10 GMT, for a total of 15 hours difference. So 5:15 EST is 10:15 GMT. 8:15 PM Sydney time is 20:15 local or 10:15 GMT. So far so good. Now for the day: July 6 at 1015GMT time, there is no listing for Howland reports on that day. At 0908 GMT, Howland radiologs note a green flare bearing ENE at 0830 GMT. They hear a radio phone, man's voice, but very weak. At 0930-35GMT, Howland reports a bearing to the Itasca (Itasca asked for a bearing on them), and Howland reports a green flare ESE on the horizon. At 1004GMT, Howland radio logs indicate a weak carrier. At 1100 GMT, Howland hears a poorly modulated Japanese broadcasting station close to 3105 kHz, which continues at least to 1205 GMT. Could this be July 5th? Remember, that newspaper reports are typically a day behind the actual event. At 0946 GMT, Howland radios Itasca, saying we heard Earhart calling the Itasca and that Baker heard her at 0916 GMT. Howland begins the formal radio watch at 1031GMT. It's possible that Sydney thought Howland was at +11.5 time zone, when in fact it was at +10.5 time zone. This may account for the discrepency of an hour. My interpretation: Sydney somehow intercepts radio messages from Howland to Itasca on the 5th, and the information gets corrupted by the time it is posted in the newspaper. BTW, I interviewed the Baker radio operator, who claims he never heard Earhart, and that she arrived at Howland in the middle of the night, but was shot down by Japanese pilots. His memory was very suspect, and no reliable information was available from him about this particular message. Hope this clarifies things... ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:24:06 EDT Subject: Re: "P" on .22 cal cartridge cases From Dan Postellon If you need references for publication, try this bibliography for cartridge case identification: http://www.doitnow.com/~cerci/CartridgeBib.html The Paul Klat articles in the 1981 American Rifleman should be fairly readily available in many libraries, as the is the magazine produced by the NRA. "U" is found on Remminington .22 cal rimfires, and I don't know why. There were other rimfire cartridges besides .22 cal, particularly the .44 cal Henry, which is the source of the "H" that used to be on Winchester .22's. The Swiss had a rimfire, large caliber military rifle at one time, many of which were later sold as surplus in the U.S. If you find .30 cal carbine military cases (centerfire), you might be able to identify the arsenal of manufacture, and sometimes the year of manufacture. LTM (AKA Annie Oakley) Daniel Postellon TIGHAR #2263 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:24:57 EDT Subject: Re: Post loss radio calls From Ross Devitt That reads as if 5:15am E.S.T. is 8:15pm Sydney time? Since Sydney time is Eastern Standard Time (except in the case of daylight saving these days, where there is one hour difference) it had to be one or the other. Curious, unless someone else has added the "E.S.T." notation by mistake. Th' WOMBAT ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:26:07 EDT Subject: Lagoon visibility From Roger Smith I was suprised to learn in today's daily report that there is only 2 feet visibility underwater in the lagoon of Nikumaroro. That's going to make it tough going for the divers. I would have thought the visibility underwater in the lagoon would be clear since there are no waves or surf. What makes the lagoon visibility so poor? Roger Smith ======================================= Wind stirring up the surface which stirs up the fine, powdery silt which is the floor of the lagoon. P ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:28:12 EDT Subject: Re: Firearms and AE From Troy Carmichael another thought--what was left in the cache of the Norwich City? and, using myself as an example, I personally have .22's in my house here in California, some of which are 25 years old. the difference in dates from Gallagher and the manufacture date of ammo does not seem like a strong concern. ================================= Dunno.... I wouldn't think anyone would leave a firearm on Niku thinking it would be useful some time later. The environment is so corrosive to steel that any such thing would be a lump of rust within a few days. P ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:15:49 EDT Subject: Re: firearms and AE From Troy Carmichael it would depend, I think, on how the Norwich city gear they left behind after being wrecked was cached. Thoughts that the castaway found the cache of the Norwich City survivors is what triggers my thought. Norwich City survivors leaving behind a small-caliber varmint gun (.22) would be a great survival tool for a future castaway. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:19:18 EDT Subject: casingRe: .22 casomg From Kerry Tiller As I currently work in a gun shop (recently having retired from the navy) I thought I would put in my .22 cents worth here. To answer one question: using 5, 10 or even 15 year old ammunition is not uncommon. I've used decades old ammo with only the occasional miss-fire. Peterson cartridges (with the "P" on the bottom) were commonly in circulation at least into the 1960s. As far as I know (and I know the forum will keep me honest here) Colt only produced one model of 22 auto during Gallagher's time. Colt's website claims it used the 22 Long Rifle cartridge (as opposed to a 22 short, or a 22 long - 22 magnums were not in existence yet). My boss (a 30 year veteran gun smith and long time collector) seems to think the old Colt 22 auto could feed longs, but would not be able to take modern high velocity cartridges ("standard" velocity only). Translation of all this: I couldn't come up with any reason why the cartridge found by our expedition could not have come from a Colt 22 automatic of 1940 vintage. LTM Kerry Tiller#2350 ================================= I know next to nothing about guns other than the little I picked up from my father, who was interested in loading and target shooting. He had, among other things, a .22 target pistol that held a clip of about.... 12 rounds? something like that ... and it fired .22 long rifles. Would this gun have been similar to the one Gallagher had, or was his quite different? Could someone send me a jpeg or a url to a website where I can take a look? Just nosy, I doubt we'll be able to take this very far. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:19:57 EDT Subject: Case Manufacturer ID From Dan Postellon Another quick list of US commercial and military headstamps Daniel Postellon TIGHAR# 2263 http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1221/case_id.htm ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:21:10 EDT Subject: Radio expedition days From Mike Everette From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194: Here's something very interesting and especially timely, concerning a Ham Radio DXpedition in the area of the world in which we have a great interest right now. This comes from the American Radio Relay League, the US national Amateur Radio organization. >*************** >The ARRL Letter >Vol. 20, No. 36 >September 7, 2001 >*************** >* West Kiribati T30ES operation on the air: Eric Griffin, N1JSY, will be on >the air for the next 18 months from the island of Butaritari in West >Kiribati as T30ES. The T30ES operation is not a DXpedition. Griffin is a >Penn State grad who's in the Peace Corps. His T30ES adventure is being >supported by the Candlewood Amateur Radio Association and the Bethel >Educational Amateur Radio Society, both of Connecticut, whose members >donated the various elements for the T30ES station. At last report, one >antenna was up and N1JSY had made a few regional QSOs as the station >undergoes its shakedown cruise. T30ES will be active as his schedule >permits. He's running 100 W with battery power and will operate only during >his non-work hours. QSL to PO Box 3441, Danbury CT 06813. For more >information on T30ES, visit The Kiribati Connection Web site, >.--Peter Kemp, KZ1Z LTM (whose ears hear EVERYTHING including a flatulent gnat in Outer Mongolia) and 73 Mike E. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:23:31 EDT Subject: Re: firearms and AE From Ron Bright According to Lovell, p. 268, she cites Balfour at Lae who claimed that "she unloaded all her surplus equipment on me including her [Very] pistol and ammunition, books, letters and facility books'". Lovell cites Francis Holbrook, NA&SM , library,,AE general file: F011300. With her "obsession" for weight on the Lae-Howland leg, I suspect she wouldn't carry any kind of pistol. No 22 cal pistol reported here. As I understand the Very pistol used shotgun shells. Is that correct? Were any shot gun shells ever found on Howland? Are there references to AE carring a firearm of any caliber on the Flight? LTM Ron Bright ============================================ The Very pistol was a flare gun, may have used a special shell in a shotgun casing to carry its load, but it was primarily a signaling device if I understand things correctly. Boy, am I out of my pay grade here. P ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:27:08 EDT Subject: Re: Post los radio calls From Alan Caldwell Randy, I should have waited for my daughter to send the hard copy of the full report before posting or at least read it more carefully as I can see the confusion. I think you have it figured out, however. The vague part is the 7/6/37 notation. I take that to mean the July 6th edition of the New York paper. If so you are on the money the event had to have happened the day before. That would mean 5:15EST in New York on the 5th and 20:15 on the 6th in Sydney which would be the 5th on Howland but I'll leave it to you to figure out what time that would have been on Howland. A quick stab at it at a late hour with few brain cells functioning would be that if 5:15 EST on the 5th is correct and that is 10:15GMT and Howland local time is GMT minus 11:30 would our answer be 22:45 on the 4th at Howland local? Alan #2329 ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:33:48 EDT Subject: Re: Post loss radio signals From Randy Jacobson Actually, Howland Island was on Honolulu time (-10.5), even though when the Itasca visited, the Itasca was on -11.5 time! If the GMT time of 1015 GMT was correct, Howland would be at 23:45 local time the previous day. The real question is how did the press find out about this information? Gotta go now...I get headaches everytime I deal with time zones and dates! ==================================== Me too, Randy... :-( P ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:35:36 EDT Subject: The "g" From Roger Kelley When Ric stumbled onto the "g" he obviously discovered something very much out of place. Should time and resources permit, I would suggest that the area near the "g" be explored, searched and excavated. Who knows what may lie near, around or under the "G" ?? LTM, (who digs a good mystery) Roger Kelley ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:37:24 EDT Subject: Very Pistols From Dan Postellon The original Very pistol was developed by Lt. Edward Very, US Navy, about 1890. It was a flare launching pistol based on the 10 gauge shotgun shell. In WW I and WW II, most Very pistols had a 1 inch (now 26.5 mm) or 1 1/2 inch (38 mm) bore. 10 gauge is 0.775 inches. These were single shot smoothbore pistols. I wouldn't recommend them for firing actual shotgun shells. There was a large number of manufacturers of the pistols and ammunition. The shells look like 1X4 inch shotgun shells. Shorter shells were made. Cardboard, brass and aluminum shells exist, maybe others. They have been made obsolete by self-contained, hand-launched flares, but there must be millions of them around, often on ships. Daniel Postellon TIGHAR # 2263 ========================= I thought the ones I had seen looked pretty big. My father had a 10 gauge side-by-side shotgun and that thing was a cannon, and you say the early and mid 20th century Very pistols were bigger.... wow. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:40:26 EDT Subject: Re: .22 casings From Kerry Tiller > I know next to nothing about guns other than the little I picked up from my > father, who was interested in loading and target shooting. He had, among > other things, a .22 target pistol that held a clip of about.... 12 rounds? > something like that ... and it fired .22 long rifles. Would this gun have > been similar to the one Gallagher had, or was his quite different? Could > someone send me a jpeg or a url to a website where I can take a look? Just > nosy, I doubt we'll be able to take this very far. > > Pat That was a magazine, not a clip. The action would have been the same. The rounds are stacked in a spring loaded magazine that is inserted through the bottom of the frame that is encased by the grip (sound familiar?). The pistol Gallagher had would have looked like a diminutive version of the U.S. Government model 1911 .45 caliber automatic invented by Browning but widely produced by Colt, the Springfield Armory and others throughout most of the 20th century. (And are still being produced in a wide variety of forms.) Assuming your father's pistol was a true "target" pistol, it probably had a shorter slide (the part over the top of the barrel that cocks it) and a longer, protruding barrel for better balance and longer range. The most common of these .22 target pistols are made by Browning and Ruger. I'll see if I can find a picture of a Colt .22 auto of the type Gallagher may have had, as it might be of interest to the forum. LTM (who has never shot a gun) Kerry Tiller #2350 ============================== Thanks for rescuing me, Kerry. Yes, my father's pistol was a true target pistol, long barrel and all. An excellent gun for shooting mistletoe out of the oak tree by the garage every Christmas . I think it was a Browning but I don't know why I think that. I definitely would appreciate a photo of the kind of pistol Gallagher probably had. I'll put it on the website if it's possible, or we can provide a link to another website if that would be better. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:46:36 EDT Subject: Re: .22 casings From Kerry Tiller For a picture of the pistol Gallagher had (assuming it was a Colt .22 Auto) go to http://www.coltautos.com/ and then use the guide search to select "Colt ACE Model 1911 A1 .22LR" That's what his pistol would have looked like. Kerry Tiller ================================= Great! It really does look like a baby .45, doesn't it. And now for something completely off-topic... reminds me of the time a member (against strict rules) brought a .22 Derringer (sp?) to Maine during Project Midnight Ghost -- a teensy little "lady's" gun, about the size of a small squirt gun... and about as effective against the bears he thought it would protect him from. 'Course, it woulda torn the h#$@ out of a person, which was why we confiscated it and then asked him to leave. Ah well. Some people just don't have the brains God gave geese. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:32:35 EDT Subject: Crabs and castaways From Troy Carmichael When I joined TIGHAR almost 2 years ago, it gave me the heebie-jeebies just thinking about being stranded on an uninhabited atoll in the middle of nowhere, slowly starving to death, eating raw clams to survive (I loathe all shell-animals). Compounded by being missed by search planes, a possibly severely wounded navigator, and the only tie to the outside world--a plane and radio--inevitably being washed into the ocean and losing electrical power, I could not imagine a worse scenario. The human side of this story is so tragic--just the hopelessness of it all. How long could one keep up hope in that situation? Now, after reading the story of the crabs on Niku last night, it chills me more than any Stephen King fiction. The added possibility of being slowly eaten alive by thousands of crabs? Ohmigosh! It kinda makes one wish she went down at sea instead..... If AE was in fact the castaway on that island, then her story is much more tragic than we ever suspected. LTM (who hates a slow, lingering death) Troy ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:33:56 EDT Subject: Re: Post-loss radio signals From Alan Caldwell Randy Jacobson wrote: > Actually, Howland Island was on Honolulu time (-10.5), even though when the > Itasca visited, the Itasca was on -11.5 time! If the GMT time of 1015 GMT > was correct, Howland would be at 23:45 local time the previous day. The > real question is how did the press find out about this information? Thanks Randy. As soon as I get the hard copy you will be the first to know. Alan #2329 ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:43:12 EDT Subject: Firearms and TIGHAR and expeditions From Marty Joy: >Well Jeees, Pat, you're not suggesting that simply because we are gun >owners we wouldn't be welcome on any expeditions, are you? BTW, the shell >casings you found could have come also from a Ruger .22 auto, same action >as a luger. Don't know if they were around on the 40's, probably not. ======================================== Perhaps this is as good a time as any to clarify TIGHAR's policies on this subject: expeditions and firearms. We have nothing against gun owners, we just have something against people bringing guns on expeditions. The cans of worms that would be opened just couldn't be re-canned. The aforementioned little twerp would have shot somebody in a trice with that popgun if he'd been scared or surprised, and while it wouldn't have bothered a bear much it would have played hell with a person's insides. At least one of the people on the current team is a collector in a big way, but he doesn't seem to feel the need to tote his guns around with him... just as well, since he mostly collects rifles and shotguns! If a place is so dangerous because of people as to *need* firearms for protection, we don't go there. If it's wildlife, we might go, but we'd hire local, experienced people as guards, who could spend full time doing that job. It's not for the hobbiest when people's lives are seriously at stake. We follow the same principle in hiring other essential services, from ships to search technology: leave it to the pros. It's a policy that serves us well and has for many years. Love to Mother, who learned to shoot as a child but doesn't necessarily see it as a form of recreation, Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:44:24 EDT Subject: Silty lagoon From: Roger Smith If there is so much silt at the bottom of the lagoon, any plane parts making their way into the lagoon over 50 years ago are very probably covered with it. If our divers can't see airplane parts lying on the bottom because of the silt, do they have any other way to detect metal? Air hose and compressor to blow away the silt or is there some type of metal detector for under the water? Roger Smith ================================== Underwater metal detectors from White's Electronics, and a portable dredge with a looooong hose. Also probes and the like. But it's a very tough job. We should be getting reports on it beginning today. P ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:49:32 EDT Subject: AE and guns From Rollin Reineck According to my references AE caried a "signal pistol (very pistol) No. A56, Mark III, one inch. Also she carried 14 signal pistol shells. ( Amelia Earhart - Case Closed pp176-177) The one inch is the diameter of the shell and, as I recall they were about 3 to 4 inches long. She also carried a 32 calibur hand gun with a small box of ammuntion. "Earhart handed the package she had brought from the plane to Balfour in appreciation for his help while they had been at Lae. Balfour opened the paper and inside was a 32 calibur hand gun with a small box of ammunition. He was very pleased and thanked her for the gift" (Amelia Earhart, The Mystery Solved. Elgen and Marie Long. PP192) There is no evidence that she left the flare gun and the shells at Lae. ================================ Interesting. The note to this is: "Interview by author", Mrs. Balfour, in 1972 --- so not a really good source, but may be correct anyway. But if it's correct, then the pistol wasn't with her on the last flight. The info about the Very pistol reflects what others have said about the size of the shells. Thanks, Rollin. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:54:27 EDT Subject: Colt .22 pictures From Renaud Dudon just go to http://www.colt22.com/. Here you will find all the versions of the colt .22 "woodsman" sporting pistol. Here are two pictures of version contemporary to 1937. Renaud ============================================= OK, so how do these pistols differ from the automatic that Kerry Tiller found the website for? The List won't support attachments so the photos can't be put here, but the pistols in the pictures he sent are more the target pistol look. The inventory of Gallagher's effects specifically says "Colt .22 Automatic" --- but of course we don't *know* that the casings came from his gun. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:55:36 EDT Subject: "g" From Mike Muenich Reference the "g" located by the team, didn't Earhart refer to George Putnam as "gp" in her various writings and materials? Haven't I seen posts on the forum that Putnam always wanted the Navy to search Niku and thought that's where she might have gone as an alternate? Maybe the "g" is a clue to Putnam, placed near the end of her life on the island, such as "look here George". I think, along with other posts, that more attention needs to be paid to this area if time allows. ========================== I'll talk about it with Ric today. P ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:57:16 EDT Subject: Letter "g" From Bill Moffet A bit of research on the letter "g" found in white coral: In Mathematics, a "g" (like a number 8 on its side) is "infinity". In Electricity, either a "G" or "g" is "conductance". These came from The Handbook of Applied Mathematics, Grazda & Jansson, 3rd Ed., 1961. My Random House Dictionary of English Language, 1969, lists others: Under Astronomy, Aspects & Nodes, imagine a straight line angling 45 degrees upward to the right, then two circles touching each other, both bisected by the line. Now erase the line. The two circles signify "Opposition; differing by 180 degrees in longitude or right ascension". Now imagine two small circles, separated but connected by an arc above them. This is an "Ascending Node". If the connecting arc is beneath them, it's a "Descending Node". This dictionary also covered symbols in Biology, Chemistry, Chess, Commerce, Mathematics, Music, Physics, Religion and Miscellaneous. I found nothing else looking like a "g". Can't see how this is helpful - too esoteric! What does Mr. Teuatabo make of it? Sorry the dive team didn't find anything promising along the reef. Hope the lagoon search will be more fruitful. My best to all of you. LTM, Bill Moffet #2156CE ============================ Manikaa just shook his head and said it was nothing to do with any I-Kiribati. I dunno, just another weird thing to think about... P ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:57:51 EDT Subject: R: AE and guns From Randy Jacobson Almost all of the British protectorates that Earhart flew over and landed upon were insistent that she carry no firearms, as part of the rules and regulations provided her. She would be very foolish to carry a firearm, whether loaded or not, in those situations, as it would put her in jail. She had enough problems with innoculations and custom forms! ========================================== Source? P ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:59:16 EDT Subject: Re: Crabs and castaways From Craig Fuller So is the entire atoll over run by crabs? ie would it be possible for castaways to get a good nights sleep by moving father inland to get away from the crabs? How do the Kiribati and the colonists sleep on the island and not be bothered by crabs? Craig Fuller ================================================ The entire island is alive with crabs, yes. Everyone who spent time there mentions it, and mentions various strategies for keeping them away --- hammocks, rings of fire, raised platform houses. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:00:59 EDT Subject: Ameriki From Don Iwanski Has anyone every spent anytime looking at the Ameriki area of the island? This seems to be the South Eastern part of the island and not much is mentioned about it. Is this part of the island overgrown to a point where it makes investigation improbable or was it ruled out for some reason when trying to decipher Gallagher's decription as to where the bones were found? Thank you Don Iwanski ================================== Ameriki is where the USCG had their Loran station. It was scraped clean by bulldozers, so there's not much point in looking there for anything pre-Coast Guard. Given the very promising developments at the Seven site we think we have the right place. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:03:49 EDT Subject: Re: The "g" From Mike Holt: Roger Kelley wrote: > When Ric stumbled onto the "g" he obviously discovered something very > much out of place. Where is this in the dailies? I must have g-recognition program turned off. And the songs! Are the lyrics on the website anywhere? LTM (who can't see g without lunch, and who hasn't had lunch today) Mike Holt ================================================ http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/dailies2.html; entry for September 7. alas! the song lyrics are not yet on the website, I've got to do that sometime. P ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:04:37 EDT Subject: Re: The "g" From Mike Muenich I was wrong, I have searched the archives and couldn't find a reference to "GP". Searching further, I did find it in one of Mr. Gillespie's favorite books, the Search for Amelia Earhart, by Fred Goerner, page 20: "'GP', as he wanted to be called . . . ". Admittedly, its not the "g" found on the island, but Earhart may have shortened it, referring to him as "g". Had Putnam found it, he might have recognized it and realized it was a marker, clue, symbol etc. Based upon the recent report, someone went to some trouble to place it there, I doubt that it is meaningless. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:06:08 EDT Subject: Re: Letter "g" From Ross Devitt If it's near the "7" site maybe it's "8" ? (Just kidding..) It could have been g for gerals or gallagher but I'd imagine one would make a capital G rather than a lower case one, the same way people tend to spell HELP instead of help on the ground. It has to be something other than a letter of the alphabet.. Th' WOMBAT ================================== Tom thinks it may be an old crab hole --- with the white thrown up and then scattered on top. They are going to put in a test hole 10 or 15 feet away and see if there is a layer of white coral under the gray. P ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:17:53 EDT Subject: Amelia Earhart's Shoes From Lee Kruczkowski Received my copy of "Amelia Earhart's Shoes" (written by our 4 Tighars) in the mail on Friday. Reading is not my "thing" but I read it this weekend cover to cover! I was surprised and amazed when I got to the Kanton Island expedition chapter to find the picture of myself standing in back of Ric! What a pleasure to be involved and to be mentioned in the book. I think the book was an excellent job and rate it a MUST READ for other "Tighars" and any Amelia Fans! I have a list of people waiting to borrow my copy already! Congratulations on your book and hope you have more to write about!! Lee #1821CE ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:20:12 EDT Subject: Unfinished business From John Hathaway For thirty years I wondered time and again what would happen to Betty's notebook and her story. I thought this little bit of history would slip through the cracks and be lost. However, with some prodding from Betty and a bit of luck I found the TIGHAR website. I was pretty sour with Earhart "researchers" from my attempted communication with Fred Goerner and reading newspaper Earhart drivel for years after. My jaw dropped somewhere into the basement when I read the TIGHAR hypotheses. For three days I spent all spare time flipping through the website before contacting Ric. This cursory view of TIGHAR's activities was delightful --- the concept and methodology of using the tools of logic, research, science, and Forum inputs sold me. Betty is a remarkable person who has had quite a life so far. She was once a young Betty and did what she thought her duty and is now an older Betty who finally gets her reward from being able to follow TIGHAR's activities. She enjoys this so much that it is great fun for me just to talk to her about the latest TIGHAR information. TIGHAR has a true leader with the other leader standing right beside him. TIGHAR has the sharpest troops of any. Be proud. You are doing great things. Thank you all for the hard work and serious thought that has given Betty peace of mind. Thank you for taking the load from me. It's been a great ride so far. And kind of a separate thanks to Rollin Reineck who, in his own mysterious way, provided a catalyst in my reaction. Sincerely, John H. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:22:28 EDT Subject: Re: wreck photo From Alan Caldwell Yes, I know that's an old subject but in reviewing what we know so far I found myself confused by the pictures and commentary in the update. For some reason my head is not getting it. The caption above the large object in the center of the picture comment about the center strut of the windshield. I don't see a center strut OR a windshield. I can't make anything out of that large object with two pairs of rectangular "holes" I gues plus another rectangle kitty corner above and to the right of the four and then another beyond that. Can someone orient me a little? Is that supposed to be the nose section? Is there a quess on the piece to the far left? One last thought. If there is a guess as to where on Niku this photo possibly might have been taken could heavy violent storms pushed it far into the jungle -- if there is a jungle? I'm thinking of the picture from the first or second day of this trip with Ric standing on the beach in front of what looks to me like a jungle. Am I totally lost here? Alan, feeling dumb #2329 ======================================== Alan, you're out of my pay grade here. Possibly someone can fill in the gaps for me, I don't do technical airplane stuff. But I do know that for right now, at least, we are inclined to think the wreck photo is *not* AE's plane, although it may indeed may be an Electra. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:26:11 EDT Subject: Way to Go! From Steve Gardetto Congratulations on the great job you're doing with the daily updates on the Website of the expedition! I don't know what kind of raw material Ric is sending halfway round the world to you at Mission Control, but the finished product is fantastic. They're nicely organized and interesting to read - the next best thing to being there. Kudos also to the anonymous member who revised the maps. LTM, Steve G. ============================== Ric calls me every day at around 12:30 and we just talk. He tells me stuff, I ask him questions, I give him info I've collected, and I take pages of notes. That evening I write it up and post it. It's sort of journalism, I suppose... maybe I've uncovered a secret talent in myself to be a reporter, huh? The "anonymous" member is Christopher Ferro, of the Geology Department of Wheeling Jesuit University in Wheeling, West Virginia -- their Center for Educational Technologies, and yes, the maps are gorgeous and ACCURATE!!! which mine were not. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:27:01 EDT Subject: g on the ground From Christy Creyts Ric noted that Gallagher did not make his g's like the one found--double circles connected by lines. Are there any correspondence available to determine if AE or Noonan did? christy creyts ======================================== Maybe. We'll have to dig into it when Ric gets back with the photos. P ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:30:16 EDT Subject: Re: .22 casings From John Watson I've been out of town, and am just catching up. I've been reading with interest the dialog on the .22. Just a couple of observations. First, if Gallagher had 3 1/2 packets (.22's come 50 in a box, and the boxes are quite small compared to other bullets), that means he left about 175 rounds. One must therefore presume that at least some of the missing 25 (give or take) rounds, were expended. Even if the gun had a full magazine, that leaves a dozen or so unaccounted for. As for the pistol itself, the Colt website referenced by Kerry was quite informative. By going a little further down on the list, you come to the "Woodsman" series of pistols, which are true .22 target pistols. It seems much more likely to me that this is the type of Colt pistol Gallagher would have had. Production of the Woodsman began in 1915 and continued until 1977. I'm going to try to attach a jpeg of a Woodsman to this. Let me know if it doesn't come through... The Colt Ace was first manufactured in 1931, so it would have been available at the time, but the Ace, which is a .22 version of the military .45, is a much heavier gun, and I suspect less desireable. The main arguement in favor of it is that the Government Model was designed to endure major neglect, adverse conditions and abuse, and to keep on functioning. At this stage, it would be anybody's guess as to which he really had. If, when the team gets back, they want cartridges to compare, I have a Colt .22 conversion kit for my gummint model (turns it into an Ace), and would be happy to send you some fired .22 cases for comparison of firing pin, extractor, and ejector locations. Perhaps one of the other Tighars has a Woodsman, and could do the same. It would be interesting to know when and how Gallagher may have come into possession of his pistol. I'll send an Email to Colt's historical department - there's an outside chance they might know something. They have pretty good record keeping. ltm jon 2266 =================================== I agree that we'll probably never know which .22 Gallagher had. If he got his gun in anticipation of a posting to the Pacific with the attendant bad environment, he might have gotten the heavier gun; otoh, he might have wanted something light. We just can't know. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:36:20 EDT Subject: Re; Firearms and AE From Dave Bush >Dunno.... I wouldn't think anyone would leave a firearm on Niku thinking it >would be useful some time later. The environment is so corrosive to steel >that any such thing would be a lump of rust within a few days. > >P Actually, it was common practice in those days to keep an unused firearm in oilcloth - it was totally wrapped in a special paper that was soaked in machine oil of some kind, thus protecting it from the environment. In WWII all of our equipment was first coated in a special grease before being shipped, it then had to be "degreased" before use. I forget the name of the grease, but will probably remember it about the time I hit the send button. COSMOLINE - I remembered it before I hit the send button. Yours, Dave Bush #2200 ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:57:44 EDT Subject: Re: AE and guns From Randy Jacobson The source for not carrying firearms are in the State Department records of the National Archives, providing permission for Earhart to traverse and land in the various countries. ============================== That's pretty conclusive then. I find it hard to think that an avowed pacifist would knowingly violate the terms of her passage by carrying an illegal firearm. P ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:56:30 EDT Subject: Re: colt .22 pictures From Oscar Boswell Renaud Dudon wrote: > just go to http://www.colt22.com/. Here you will find all the versions of the > colt .22 "woodsman" sporting pistol. Here are two pictures of version > contemporary to 1937. > > Renaud > > =============================================> > OK, so how do these pistols differ from the automatic that Kerry Tiller found > the website for? The List won't support attachments so the photos can't be > put here, but the pistols in the pictures he sent are more the target pistol > look. > > The inventory of Gallagher's effects specifically says "Colt .22 Automatic" > --- but of course we don't *know* that the casings came from his gun. > > Pat The "Ace" is not a "baby .45" - it is the .45 automatic (1911A1) frame, with a .22 barrel and lighter slide and recoil spring, and a few other parts. An Ace can be converted to a .45 by changing these parts, and Colt sold kits to do just that (as it sold kits to convert the .45 to .22). The "Woodsman" is THE Colt .22 auto (sport and target) of prewar years (and continued in production from about 1915 until the '70's or '80's). It came in three barrel lengths, 4 1/2, 6 and (I think) 6 7/8 inches, with a variey of sights ("target" and otherwise), and stocks. Oscar Boswell ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:55:01 EDT Subject: Broken clamshells From Mike Holt I note that many of them had been broken by smashing them on the rocks. I have seagulls drop clamshells to do just this. Might the birds have dropped them in a single small area? ==================================== These are giant clams, not the little one seagulls get. We've never seen this behavior from Niku's birds, they are all fish eaters. P ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:05:20 EDT Subject: Re: Maps From Christopher Ferro Point of correction! I am a GIS/Remote Sensing Specialist (GIS is Geographic Information Systems) and a Geographer (not Geologist) with the Center for Educational Technologies at WJU (www.cet.edu). The CET is a semi-autonomous entity on campus. Alas, WJU, like many colleges and universities in the U.S.A. has no Geography department. WJU doesn't have a Geology dept. either. In fact, we are in reality a liberal arts college, but the former pres. thought calling it a University would raise our "prestige"... I'd love to have a chance to do more cartographic work for TIGHAR, time permitting. This stuff is GREAT! And I agree, Pat's web stuff for Niku IIII is excellent, enjoyable and informative. I love it! LTM, Christopher (#2447) ========================================== I stand corrected. I sit corrected. I am fairly hazy about the difference between geography and geology, anyway (not really, but please don't push too hard on the taxonomy there...) since my college ("the Harvard of the Midwest") was so liberal artsy as to not acknowledge that rocks existed. And thanks for the compliments, folks. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:08:10 EDT Subject: Colt .22s From Dave Porter Geez, the first time a real firearms question comes up on the forum and I'm away all weekend on military duty. The "P" marking is most likely Peters, as many others have already said. Gallagher's pistol was probably a Colt Ace (similar in function and appearance to a model 1911 "Government" .45) or a variation of the Woodsman which looked and functioned slightly differently, but fired the same .22 Long Rifle cartridges. Both were produced for many, many years. I can get exact production dates if you need them. One other possibility: Denise and others have recently discussed the differences between US and UK versions of the English language. It is possible that .22 pistols in England at that time were called "Colts" as a generic term, and that Gallagher might have had some other make entirely. Even if we were able to discover the current location of Gallagher's personal effects, the pistol probably was turned in and destroyed under the UK's recent spate of rather draconian gun laws. For Kerry Tiller: I work part time in a gun shop in the Detroit area. Drop me a line and we can compare notes on "collectible inventory" and such. I'm at drp67@hotmail.com LTM, who didn't want her children playing with toy guns, and ended up with three grown children who are a hunter, a cop, and a gun collector. Dave Porter, 2288 (who'd love to have Gallagher's .22) ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:07:07 EDT Subject: Re: the fastest gun on Gardner From Angus Murray It occurs to me that the artifacts found correspond well with a target practice episode by the coast guard or similar. We have shell casings (two different types) broken plates, porcelaine shard, broken lightbulb, broken thermometer, a chunk of glass and poles (for targets). Even the copper screening and tar-paper would puncture nicely. People always choose something fragile which results in a suitably spectacular or recorded event when hit. Heavy porcelaine plates would not be the sort of thing you'd take to the bush to eat your dinner off (unless of course it was Gallagher). Target practice on the other hand, might well have been an appealing idea to break the boredom. It would be well worthwhile scanning the poles (if they are still around) and any large trees in the immediate vicinity for traces of embedded rounds, both visually and with the metal detectors . Regards Angus Murray. ================================ One of the plate shards is actually marked U.S. Coast Guard, so you are right on there. Some of the artifacts, though, are clearly non-U.S. in origin, hard to explain as part of a very remote American outpost with no contact with anyone else. P ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:11:17 EDT Subject: Re: Unfinished business From Jerry Hamilton The note from John Hathaway was very interesting regarding Betty's notebook. But I don't remember how he fits into the picture. Pat, please enlighten me. =============================== You know, I bet a lot of people have that question. Slow freight department, I'm not sure we every publicized John's role. John is a neighbor of Betty's, a friend of her son's --- boomer generation. He heard the story from her many years ago, and tried to get Fred Goerner interested in the notebook without success. When he heard about TIGHAR's work he sent us an email and was the conduit through which Betty reached us, for which we are eternally grateful. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:08:56 EDT Subject: Re: Firearms and AE From Kerry Tiller > COSMOLINE - I remembered it before I hit the send button. > > Yours, > Dave Bush > #2200 I'm glad you remembered when you did, as I was reading your post I was about reply but was sure I didn't know how to spell cosmoline; which turns VERY viscous with age by the way. Kerry Tiller ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:55:49 EDT Subject: Woodsman, don't spare that crab From John Hathaway My pre-Woodsman Colt is marked on the slide COLT AUTOMATIC CAL.22 LONG RIFLE Inventory of Gallagher's stuff states 1 Colt .22 automatic. I wonder what the slide markings might be on an Ace? Don't the British refer to automatic pistols as "self- loaders"? Don't own an Ace, just the later conversion with floating chamber. Slide markings from it would not be the same as on the much earlier Ace. Thinking it might be possible slide markings were copied for inventory. For future reference, ALL Colts use left-handed rifling twist. John Hathaway ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:54:29 EDT Subject: Amelia's shoes and Betty's notes From Claude Stokes Thanks to TIGHAR for all the wonderful information about Amelia, and while loosing my thoughts pouring over the wonderful files I have noticed many perfect coorelations. Looking at the pictures of artifacts from Niku III there are some brass eyelets. Then I came across the photos of Amelia and pics of her shoes and it sure looks like the same brass elyelets on her shoes are exactly like the ones found on Niku. Im thinking wherever those eylets were found is the final resting place for Amelia and probably there are other items still in that surronding area. Reading this material is like looking at a painting and the picture comes to focus the more you read. I can see a direct coorelation in the radio logs of Itasca and Bettys note book. As AE made her arrival at howland on or around 0745 local time she loitered in the area not knowing what heading to fly, playing games with the young puppies on the Itasca. At around 0830 she realized this was going no where and rolled her big silver bird onto a heading of 160 and put the mo-jo to the throttles. The Itasca gives her splash down around 0945 but we know thats not true cause she had enough fuel to stay in the air till around 1130. aiming at 4 islands is better than aiming at one and obviousluy at this point she shuts off on the radio with better things to do. She arrives at Niku around 1100 plus or minus, and this is where it coorelates with Bettys note book. only enough fuel to make one quick pass over the island and pick a spot to land. Everything goes silent after the engines are shut down, and the deep psychological depression of situation reality sets in, parked on the edge of the reef she jumps immediatly on the radio. This is around 2300 gmt and her trip has lasted 22 or 23 hours. Im thinking she was dog-tired, but the hardest part was just begining.. In St Petersburg Bettys clock is local time plus 5 for gmt. At 5pm for betty it is 2200 gmt, almost exactly at the time Amelia has landed at Niku. I believe that what Betty heard was the very first post landing messages from AE, and then the tide rolled in and they headed for the beach. If Amelias messages sound giddie, just realize she has been in the air nearly 24 hours wrestling with a big hand full of airplane. and then finds herself stranded with no known outside contact to the real world. and so on and so on. I feal really sad when I look at the Lambrecht photo and realize that Amelia is somewhere in that picture. I bet Lambrecht spent all of 90 seconds zooming Niku before pointing his bird to the next piece of dirt. By the 7th day,, AE was probably exhausted big time and was staying awake at night swatting crabs and sleeping in the day time. As you know,, the sun hits down like a hammer, and I bet AE was in the deep cool shadows of the bush napping out getting ready for the suns daily hammer when Lambrecht arrived. I doubt if she was capable of a jump and run to the beach and by then probably weighed only 80 pounds soaking wet. She prolly hit the beach just in time to see Lambrechts tail feathers leaving Niku forever. Is it sad to know that AE spent her life daring to bite off a big piece of the apple just to end up feeding the crabs??? Darn,, this email is just to long . The Amelia story is better than the Greek Illyadds ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:51:06 EDT Subject: Re: AE and guns From Dave Bush Yes, ok, AE was an avowed pacifist - but how about Noonan - he could have been an avowed Atlantist (just kidding), I mean, an avowed survivalist and felt that protection from possible problems enroute justified the smuggling of a gun along. After all, who wants to end up in the remote jungles with NO protection. But we really have no way of knowing without some form of documentation. Something like a receipt for a gun purchased by Noonan. And even with that, we would need documentation that he carried the gun with him. So its all conjecture, but could lead to something. Would records have been kept in those days on such a purchase. Even if there were, it doesn't mean Noonan purchased it from a source that didn't give a receipt or even possibly received it as a gift. The letters that his wife's family won't release might shed some light on it, but there we have a snag. Yours, DB #2200 ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:12:29 EDT Subject: Re: wreck photo From Jon Watson Not too long back (late last year? Early this year?) I sent Ric a photo of the firewall of the Electra, taken I believe when it was being fixed after the Hawaii crash. There is very clearly an opening in the firewall for the exhaust stack. The wreck photo, with the engine stripped off back to the firewall, shows no such opening, which leads me to believe pretty strongly that it's not an Electra. At least not AE's 10-E. ltm jon 2266 ================================ Mini tanks! ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:13:20 EDT Subject: AE and guns From Bob Sherman > I find it hard to think that an avowed > pacifist would knowingly violate the terms of her passage > by carrying an illegal firearm. P *** That explains why she gave her gun to Balfour Weight saving never cut it with me. RC 943 ================================ But most of the places she was not supposed to have a gun were well before Lae... P ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:14:56 EDT Subject: Year 2001 USCG reunion The Loran Coast Guard Reunion, for those stationed in the South Pacific, will start this coming Thursday in Michigan. Mo Lewis, a Coast Guard Loran Veteran stationed on Canton and Atafu Islands, suggests a marker be placed on Gardner Island to remember those CG who operated the Loran Station. =A0Some that worked so hard operation the Loran Station and put up with what the group on the Island now is dealing with are Dick Evans, Leroy Neilson, Glen Burford, Bill Davis, Al Ewald, Wallace Galner, Cortland Goodnoe, George Jischke, Leo Johnson, Dick Polley, Dennis Street, Charles Spoko (Commanding Officer), Bob Begotka, Daniel Idealson, Bob Miller, Louis Turner and Eugene Warszawski. =A0These are just a few stationed on the Island. =A0Most likely a total of 100 or more men were there during the war days. Those stationed on Gardner Island were not there for only a week or two or three, many were there for a year or a year and a half. =A0They have told some very interesting tales of how it was. =A0The first thing they had to do was clear a 300 foot area to house and operate the Station. There is a lot more that could be told of their stay on Gardner. =A0It was not easy. These men should be remembered. Lee (Chuck) Boyle 2060 -------------------- Perhaps if we get squared away to go out again in two or three years, over that time period funds could be raised and a plaque designed and made? We would be happy to install it. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:49:31 EDT Subject: Re: Amelia's Shoes and Betty's notes From Ross Devitt Claude wrote: > As you know,, the sun hits down like a hammer, and I bet AE was in > the deep cool shadows of the bush napping out getting ready for the suns > daily hammer when Lambrecht arrived. I doubt if she was capable of a jump > and run to the beach and by then probably weighed only 80 pounds soaking > wet. She prolly hit the beach just in time to see Lambrechts tail feathers > leaving Niku forever. I was thinking about this a couple of mornings ago. Early morning, crystal clear, little wind and two Pratt & Whitney powered 1950's aircraft flying past at 500 feet. I didn't hear them until they were almost on top of me, and withing two minutes they were far enough away that I couldn't hear them, even though the exhausts were facing my way. If Amelia was on Niku when Lambrecht flew over he could have zoomed several times and she may have been 2 miles away and not had time to get to the beach by the time she heard him. Even if she was on the beach, it's entirely possible neither aircraft crew saw her as they were quite a bit higher than 500 feet by the written account, making it harder to see her and harder for her to hear them. Th' WOMBAT p.s. Our thoughts here in Australia go out to all those affected by the terrible things that have happened in the U.S., especially those who have loved ones lost or injured... ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:51:18 EDT Subject: Metric versus standard From Chris Strohmeyer Please for give me for my ignorance, but for the uneducated ones like me could you use feet and inches in addition to centimeters? It's frustrating not knowing the distances and the metric system seems to only be used in the scientific community which I am not a part of. Many thanks, Chris in backwoods Petaluma, Ca. ============================= Sorry, Chris, we've learned to think in meters and forget that not everyone has application for the metric system in his life. A meter is a long yard, and there are about two and a half centimeters to an inch. Hope that helps. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:52:00 EDT Subject: Re: Amelia's Shoes and Betty's Notes From Andy Shaw <<>> We worked this out on the forums a while back. Based on time spent aloft and distance covered on that flight (McKean, Gardner and Carondelet reef were all flown over that morning, in that order) we estimated at the very most they had 10 minutes over Gardner before they had to move on. Basically that's enough time to do one circumference of the island. So one could really understand how something like a submerged Electra actually could be overlooked, as it may have been in their visual range for only a matter of seconds as they scanned the beach and lagoon. It is all quite sad really, especially when one thinks of the "signs of recent habitation." LTM, Andy ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:55:26 EDT Subject: Midnight Ghost From Dennis McGee Pat said: " . .. . reminds me of the time a member (against strict rules) brought a .22 Derringer (sp?) to Maine during Project Midnight Ghost" Yeah, I remember that episode. I was following him and his buddy by about 10 yards in the woods earlier that day when a branch fell (or something made a noise) and he swung around 90 degrees and looked like he was pointing his finger at something. I stopped looked over in the direction he was pointing, saw nothing, looked back at him and his buddy as they walked "briskly" away. From 10 yards away and with the mottled sunlight in the forest, I didn't know he had "slapped leather" until I got back to camp later that day and learned he was no longer among us. As Pat could verify, there were several "bear sightings" during each of the Midnight Ghost expeditions. If the TIGHAR team were to be believed, the brown/black bears of Maine are not in danger of extinction and keep a close eye on all who trespass their domain. :-) LTM, who believes this is barely on-topic Dennis O. McGee #0149 ============================ It was Jerry Edwards who made the noise, thinking it would be funny... which it was, but he could have had a hole blown in him by ol' trigger-happy Phil, whom we called the Angel of Death (but not because of the gun). Midnight Ghost memories.... I do miss Washington County sometimes. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:17:05 EDT Subject: Recent events From Malcolm Andrews, in Australia May I echo Th'Wombat's words about yesterday's NY tragedy in saying all our thoughts and prayers from Down Under go out to our American friends. The awful scenes we are watching on television make everything else that is happening seem quite inconsequantial. Malcolm Andrews #2409 ===================================== Thank you. Ric tells me that the only way they can keep working and pushing on the island is to remember that, if the expedition is truly successful, it will be good news, and GOOD news is sadly needed right now. The whole situation is so utterly unbelievable, and so utterly real, both at once. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:03:48 EDT Subject: Recent events I am posting up everything everyone has to say on the subject of the WTC/Pentagon terrorism in this post... then I ask that we go back on topic. I know it's hard to think of Earhart as important in the larger scheme of things, but sooner or later we'll need to rejoin our lives in progress, and I'd prefer sooner. Pat --------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ross, I read with gratitude your kind words of support. I, like so many other Americans, have lost friends in yesterday's attacks. We are grateful for the support of our friends overseas; we took a great deal of comfort from the kind words of the Australian Prime Minister. Thank you again, and bless you. David Katz --------------------------------------------------------- While off topic, I wanted to say that the recent events in NY will bring us together as strong as ever. Other countries have never understood the resolve of our people when we are joined in a common cause. Right will win out this country will survive. God bless America!! Mike Haddock #2438 ------------------------------------------------------- Please express our support, encouragement and appreciation to the team at Niku. I read your update for 09/13 and had already thought of your team and the difficult task they have remaining focused considering their knowledge of the tragic events at home. There is a temptation, and in some cases we have had the luxury to yield to that temptation to put our daily responsibilities aside, to reflect and follow the unfolding events in the northeast and around the world. However, being professionals, I know that the team realizes their window of opportunity is small and they must remain keenly focused on their objective. Theirs is a difficult task, even without the influence of Tuesday's tragedy. Please forward our appreciation of their dedication and professionalism. God speed. Steve Wilson North Carolina ---------------------------------------------------------------- From Herman De Wulf, in Belgium My thoughts are with the American people and the friends I have in the USA. I join Th'Wombat in saying that what we saw on television worldwide makes everything else look inconsequential. There are simply no words to qualify the horror of the scenes showing how some of the human race can turn into relegious criminals for a cause nobody understands. ========================================= Many thanks to everyone. The team is carrying on, working hard, and looking forward to getting home as well. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:11:56 EDT Subject: Re: thoughts on Lambrecht From Patrick Gaston I'm not sure where Ross got the idea that Lambrecht's search was conducted from "quite a bit higher than 500 feet." Lambrecht's ris report says that the search planes circled M'Kean at 50 feet before being forced to pull up to 400 feet by the native bird population. This suggests to me that the Gardner search was conducted from a >maximum< of 500 feet, with swoops as low as 50 feet if the pilots thought they could get away with it. Maybe I'm missing something. Lambrecht's report also speaks of "repeated circling and zooming" -- which certainly indicates more than a quick circumfrence of the island, whatever the Forum may have decided ex post facto. His description of the Norwich City wreck is not only detailed but includes an estimate of the ship's tonnage. And let's not forget that it wasn't just Lt. Lambrecht. There were three airplanes -- six pairs of eyes -- all straining to see signs of aircraft wreckage or survivors. At least, those were their orders. I mention this only because it seems to have become fashionable on this Forum in recent years (I don't mean you, Wombat) to dismiss Lambrecht and his wingmen as incompetent, blind, derelict, or all three. To me this defames six men who are no longer around to defend themselves. These guys were professionals, they knew exactly what they were looking for and they also knew that fame (and fortune -- or at least a medal) awaited the men who found Earhart. To imply that they gave it less than their all is an affront to their memories. Pat Gaston ============================================== Certainly I would agree with Pat that the search flight was not conducted by idiots or incompetents, but by people who were doing the very best they could, as a matter of desire, duty, and honor. I think that to look at their search now, and judge it as incompetent, is forgetting that SAR techniques were barely in their infancy at that time. It was WWII and subsequent wars that enabled (forced) the U.S. military to develop the efficiency and thoroughness in SAR that we are accustomed to now. However --- motivations are not the issue here. The fact is, that with the best possible intentions, Lambrecht et al did not stay over Niku for anywhere near long enough to conduct a thorough search. Even had they stayed longer, they might easily have missed one or two people waving frantically on a beach if those people did not have the time or the capacity to create some sort of large-scale signal (like a smokey fire). It is *terrifically* hard to spot stuff on the ground from the air. I think there is no disputing the idea that Earhart was findable, and was findable with the technology and resources available to the searchers. What was lacking was not the will, but the understanding of how and where to search, and with what tools, that seems so clear now. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:16:57 EDT Subject: Re: metric vs. standard From Herman (#2406) One yard is exactly 0.9144 m. ============================= Or, one meter is 39.3701 inches. P ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:16:21 EDT Subject: Re: Lambrecht search From Claude Stoker Regarding air search, I dont believe even 3 pairs of 20/20 eyes could see a person on Niku unless they were out on the edge of the beach. If a person were in the bush or even at the edge of the bush they are invisiible ("they all look like little black dots") I have flown search for the civil air patrol, and for the local sherriff,, in supercubs at 60 mph and in cessna 172's at 100 mph over deep forest and mountainous terrain from 500 feet down to treetop. A large ship is lots easier to see than a 5'-4" person and to give a detailed description of the Norwich city indicates his eyes were being focused on the big picture rather than on the small details. When your doing a aerial search your eyes move along with the passing terrain unless you force yourself to focus on detail. I have searched for known downed aircraft where your sure there is going to be some visible wreckage and believe it or not even a complete aircraft can be invisible. The only search patern I can think of that would give maximum results was if Lambrecht slowed down to landing speed, and the other pilots followed in trail. starting on a heading of 180 crossing the island and the making turns out over the water and recrossing back and forth over the island slowly moving from end to end. This would have taken maybe 30 minutes or more to do 2 complete circuits. (one circuit is usless 3 would be the best) I dont get the idea this is what Lambrecht did, Im thinking he flew at cruise speed up the north side and then down the south side maybe circling several times over the Norwich city. Any expenditure of efforts over the Norwich city was a total waste. A person standing up is only a little black dot with a visible area of maybe 200 sq inches. Lambrecht had a mission and Gardner was not his mission. The mission was to cover as much ground as possible before dark and then move on. Happy landings,, The Stoker =========================================== Search patterns such as you suggest are the product, of course, of decades of experience in aerial searching by many organizations. Folks just didn't know how to do it then. Anecdote: In 1989 while we were at Niku a Kiwi P-3 came over looking for us. They knew we were there, and of course could see our ship. We were all (about 14 of us) standing out in the open, wearing brightly colored clothing, waving and jumping up and down. And the crew of the aircraft never saw us. It is worth noting, too, that we did not hear the airplane until it was almost directly overhead, and a P-3 with two turning is certainly as loud as an Electra. Well, maybe not, but plenty loud anyway. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:21:54 EDT Subject: Mind numbing job? From Jon Tabor I came across the Calvin & Hobbes comic strip that is referenced in today's Expedition Report, and figured everyone would enjoy the much needed humor. http://www.ucomics.com/calvinandhobbes/viewch.cfm?uc_fn=1&uc_full_date=19880 504&uc_daction=N&uc_comic=ch Enjoy, Jon Tabor ================================ Many thanks, Jon, that's the one. We actually ran it in TIGHAR Tracks once. For those who want to see it, you will probably have to paste just this much in your browser: http://www.ucomics.com/calvinandhobbes and then select the May 1988 calendar and click on May 4. Pat ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:23:01 EDT Subject: Re: metric vs. standard From Bill Zorn I have to work with both systems at work, depending on the agency who issued the contract drawings. a Meter is 3 feet, three and three eights. (3'-3 3/8") plus or minus or 39.370078 inches A foot is 604.8 millimeters an inch is 25.4 mm There are numerous online conversion sites ================================ I have found it interesting how easy it is to think in both systems once you get used to it. It's all arbitrary anyway. P ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:24:30 EDT Subject: One last condolence From Antonio Gomez Abraham, Mexico Dear good people of TIGHAR. From here we follow all of this terrible tragedy. was in Mex City for the last two days and please forgive me for not writing sooner. i read they may have found one of the flight recorders. We are with you friends. buena mar to those at Niku. ============================== Thank you. P ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:29:32 EDT Subject: Re: thoughts on Lambrecht From Jon Watson I have to agree with your assessment of Lambrecht's "search" of the island. Don't forget that while the pilots were officers, the observers on the search flights were Navy ROTC cadets, who were undoubtedly totally inexperienced at anything like this. Regarding their observation of the SS Norwich City, it seems very likely they were paying more attention to the ship than to its surroundings, and the rest of the time the pilots were watching out for birds as much as searching the island. ltm, jon 2266 ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:31:07 EDT Subject: Re: thoughts on Lambrecht From Ross Devitt Patrick Gaston wrote: > I'm not sure where Ross got the idea that Lambrecht's search was conducted > from "quite a bit higher than 500 feet." Umm Ross did the usual and referred to someting he'd read a while ago about birds forcing the search planes higher. Unfortunately Ross didn't read it again before putting fingers to keyboard! > And let's not forget that it wasn't just Lt. Lambrecht. There were three > airplanes -- six pairs of eyes -- all straining to see signs of aircraft > wreckage or survivors. At least, those were their orders. > I mention this only because it seems to have become fashionable on this > Forum in recent years (I don't mean you, Wombat) to dismiss Lambrecht and > his wingmen as incompetent, blind, derelict, or all three. To me this > defames six men who are no longer around to defend themselves. I agree. The problem here is that many of the forum don't fly and think you can see a lot from the air. The airplane itself blocks an awful lot of the island from view, and even trained observers have a lot of trouble seeing a person on the ground. I remember a search exercise where we had around a dozen aircraft flying over a small area (at staggered times) looking for an aircraft lying on its back. The search aircraft mostly had a pilot and two or three passengers, some experienced in this sort of thing, scanning the ground. Two of the search aircraft found the plane, which was in the corner of a paddock (field). The "survivors" were in the open, waving things (probably their fists - in frustration) at the overflying aircraft. The exercise proved how difficult a search from an aircraft is. Lambrecht's men would have been highly trained observers, but would have to be looking at just the right spot at just the right time. Somewhere on the TIGHAR web site there is a picture called 1975.jpg. It is a low level aerial shot that shows a foot trail leading from the beach inland. If you can find the picture, look at it for 3 seconds then close your eyes and try to remember just what you saw. That is probably about the time Lambrecht's men saw any one part of the island from that height. > These guys were professionals, they knew exactly what they were looking for > and they also knew that fame (and fortune -- or at least a medal) awaited > the men who found Earhart. To imply that they gave it less than their all > is an affront to their memories. > > Pat Gaston I think the last things on their minds as aviators would have been fame, fortune or medals. In their minds, as naval aviators, it could have been any of them down there.... Anyway, the original post was about my surprise at how quickly the sounds from two large WWII aircraft engines died out while they were still very close. Th' WOMBAT ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:30:53 EDT Subject: Re: One last condolence From Gene Dangelo I should have written sooner about this, but have been somewhat in shock. I live only about 30 miles from the Somerset County, Pa. location where Flight 93 crashed. It was the 911 dispatcher here in my hometown of Greensburg, Pa. that picked up the cellphone call from the plane announcing the hijacking, and I was teaching at Donegal Elementary School only a few miles away from the Somerset crash site on Tuesday when that crash occurred. People here are stunned, but it was announced this evening that the flight data recorder of Flight 93 was found in the impact crater. Debris has been found as far as 6 miles from the crater. The cockpit voice recorder has yet to be found. It is believed, on the basis of cellphone call content from this plane, that the passengers may have actively thwarted the intentions of the hijackers, resulting in the crash at this location, rather than at some Washington, D.C. strategic target. This entire tragedy is beyond words, except perhaps for prayers for the victims and their families. Dr. Gene Dangelo #2211 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:32:19 EDT Subject: Re: metric vs. standard From Kerry Tiller > I have found it interesting how easy it is to think in both systems once you > get used to it. It's all arbitrary anyway. > > P The same can be said for which side of the road to drive on and which side of the car the steering wheel is on. My last car in Japan was left hand drive (in a right hand drive world). And, of course, true bilinguality allows you to think in both appropriate languages at once. LTM (who knows a miss isn't quite as good as 2 kilometers) Kerry Tiller ============================================ I should note that we use metric in field work because it is the international standard for archeology, not because we think we're sharp . P ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:35:28 EDT Subject: Re: metric vs. standard From Ross Devitt Bill Zorn wrote: > A foot is 604.8 millimeters > > an inch is 25.4 mm I am not posting this to laugh "at" Bill, just to laugh with him when her realises what he's written. (He did a WOMBAT) A foot is 12 inches.. an inch is 25.4mm 25.4 x 12 = ????? It just looked a little ODD.. Th' WOMBAT ================================ I expect that what we have here is a common-or-garden typo. I mean, the six is right above the three on *my* keypad... P ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:35:53 EDT Subject: Re: Lambrecht search From Ross Devitt > Anecdote: In 1989 while we were at Niku a Kiwi P-3 came over looking for > us. They knew we were there, and of course could see our ship. We were all > (about 14 of us) standing out in the open, wearing brightly colored > clothing, waving and jumping up and down. And the crew of the aircraft > never saw us. > > It is worth noting, too, that we did not hear the airplane until it was > almost directly overhead, and a P-3 with two turning is certainly as loud > as an Electra. Well, maybe not, but plenty loud anyway. > > Pat AHA !!! The whole point of both sides of my argument, from the air and the ground perspective AT NIKU... Thanks, Pat.. It illustrates what I was trying to get across about Lambrecht's task and Earhart's predicament.. Th' WOMBAT ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:37:39 EDT Subject: A jeep tire? Concerning the report for September 14: I'm a newcomer, so I may be missing some precedents, but what the heck is a jeep tire doing on Nikumaroro? Marjorie Smith ============================= There was a U.S. Coast Guard Loran station on Niku during WWII, and they had a troop carrier. "Jeep tire" is really too specific; I should have written "a tire of the automotive/land transportation type." Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:38:59 EDT Subject: Re: Metric vs. standard From Suzanne Astorino Chris, No need to despair. There are MANY automated sites on the net which will convert metric to standard English units for you. eg: http://www.b25.net/l39metric.html http://anduin.eldar.org/~ben/convert.html http://www.unitwiz.com/ hundreds more: http://www.google.com/search?q=convert+metric+to+english Suzanne Stockton, CA =================================== Thanks, Suzanne ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:39:49 EDT Subject: Lambrecht photo From Claude Stoker I believe we can see exactly what Lambrechts crew was looking at by a close look at the photo. The first thing i notice is that the airplane is off shore maybe 2000 feet more or less. I expect this is exactly the path flown by the search team after the initial pass and bird encounters. The altitude of the picture appears to be maybe 500 feet, maybe 800 feet, but not lower than that. It looks like almost high tide, with breakers near the beach which means any remaining aircraft parts would be submerged with breakers washing over them. The idea behind a "zoom" is that your pushing the nose down,, picking up extra speed, and then pulling up. Im not familiar with the speeds to fly on the type aircraft used, but a zoom could easily be 160 mph if cruise speed is 120. Zooming is not a good way to see stuff on the ground. He prolly zoomed at the yellow line or what ever they used as vne. The slant range visibility from 500 feet and 2000 feet offshore would be nearly 2100 feet from an object on the beach. Finally, the density of the bush is extreem, very thick vegitation. Im not saying Lambrecht was incompitent, only that I think he was in a hurry. Creating a search pattern is not neccissarily a modern idea. Its just a matter of how well an individual is tuned to the task at any given moment. Happy landings,, The Stoker ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:41:40 EDT Subject: P-3-s From Dennis McGee Pat said: " . . . . P-3 with two turning is certainly as loud as an Electra." Yeah, but with ALL 4 turning it would be even louder! :-) LTM, who apologizes for picking nits Dennis O. McGee #0149 ======================================== HA! Gotcha, Dennis. Crews of P-3s routinely shut down one or two engines on protracted flights to save fuel once at cruise altitude. This one had two turning. Which was why I specified that.... :-PPPPPPPPPP LTM, who knows quite well how many engines a P-3 has Pat ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:04:28 EDT Subject: Re: Lambrecht's search From Don Neumann The question is not why Lt. Lambrecht & his flight did not see any _persons_ in the undergrowth or waving to them from the beach area on Gardner Island... the queston is (& always has been) why the Lambrecht flight failed to see an _intact_ Electra 10E sitting on the reef flat during their overflight (some of which (50') was almost at ground level) ? The usual answer has always been... that sometime during the interval between the last recorded radio transmission received from the Electra & the date of the Lambrecht flight, the Electra was either smashed to pieces by _normal tidal_ &/or wavewash activity, (Randy Jacobson confirmed there was no _abnormal_ tidal or wavewash activity at Gardner Island in July 1937) that even at high tide would only rise to 4' on the reef flat... or, the aircraft was completely washed off the reef flat into the abyss at the far edge of the reef flat, during that same time frame. Now one might be ready to fully accept the... 'washed off the reef flat, into the abyss by _normal_ tidal/wavewash action'... theory, _if_ it could be proven that AE's original landing was at or very close to the outer edge of the reef flat; However, it seems a bit of a stretch to accept as _fact_ that the Electra (assuming a landing at a more comfortable distance from the reef edge) was smashed to pieces (in place) by _normal_ wavewash/tidal action, so as to render its normal configuration as an aircraft, unrecognizable from the sky, during that same time frame. With all due respect for the considerable expertise of the many flyers on the forum, with air-rescue experience, I must still harbor doubt that the Lambrecht flight could have missed seeing an _intact_ Electra, sitting in plain view, on the reef flat, from an altitude of 50'. Admittedly, it is difficult to spot small objects on the ground from the air, however Gardner Island was not a vast mountainous, forested or desert area or even a vast expanse of ocean, where it is expected that sighting objects from the air (even at low altitudes) would be _extremely_ difficult... it is a very narrow, confined piece of real estate, the only object to be seen on the surface of the ocean, with the reef flat & beach areas surrounding it, reasonably clearly defined, where numerous pairs of human eyes could readily focus their attention, especially on low altitude fly-by,