========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:19:08 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Shoe size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Gary Fajack Height doesn't always equate to shoe size. My father-in-law was 6'4" and wore a size 9-1/2. I'm 6'2" and wear from 10-1/2 to 12 depending on the shoes origin. My nephews are 6'7" and 6'8" and wear 13-14. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:47:11 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Don Wilson's book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Don J. Lord have mercy! It's funny how some people can jump right in the middle of something, and think they have all the answers because they read someone's book. I was very surprised to find no response from you (Ric) at the end of this one. I guess you're just getting tired of posts like this. I know I would be! How many times did we debate the "tin box", and how long the Electra would float? As for the question; "How do I end the play?" Well, that depend on which book you read last! Or what message you want to convey, and it doesn't necessarily have to be the truth! What's needed is to weed out some of these crazy ideas. We don't need anymore books, shows or plays, because they all contradict each other. We need facts! We need more great detective work, like what was done on the "LTM" letter. Assuming we are correct, do you realize what that revelation means to the Japanese capture theorists? There are books and plays in the works right now that are based on the Weihsien Internment camp theory. Knowing what we know now, I can't believe a person would still go ahead and write such nonsense. Don J. **************************************************************************** From Ric I didn't respond to Carol's posting because I couldn't imagine anything I could say that wouldn't sound either patronizing or cruel. I agree that the LTM detective work is outstanding but I'm not kidding myself that it will dissuade the conspiracy crowd. Likewise, people can sail out into the middle of the Pacifc Ocean and shovel millions of dollars over the side and come up with zilch, and it's not going to phase the crashed-and-sank crowd. You're right. What we need are facts, but the facts we need are the facts about what DID happen, not about what DIDN'T happen. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:49:23 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Don Wilson's book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From David Evans Katz Ric wrote: I disagree. It is very helpful to ascertain facts about what did not happen, because then they can be absolutely eliminated as possibilities. For example, if it can be ascertained beyond any reasonable doubt (a tall order, I admit) that the Electra did not have sufficient fuel to reach Gardner Island, then the TIGHAR hypothesis would have to be eliminated as a possibility. The same is true with the excellent detective work on the Weihshin telegram. As long as that telegram remained unexplained, there remained a remote possibility (however improbable that it seemed) that it had some connection to the Earhart mystery, because it was connected to AE1s husband. Now that it has been explained, it can be eliminated as a possibility. David Katz *************************************************************************** From Ric This is actually a moot point because the whole purpose in testing a hypothesis is to determine whether or not it is true. Ron Bright (et al) established, with a reasonable degree of certainty, that Earhart did not send the LTM message and thus satisfied reasonable people that something DIDN'T happen that some had alleged DID happen. Had the research turned out differently and, for example, records had been found indicating Earhart's presence at the camp, reasonable people would have been satisfied that something DID happen that would have a huge bearing on the case. You use the example of determining beyond any reasonable doubt that the Electra did not have sufficient fuel to reach Gardner Island and you are correct that such a finding would effectively eliminate the Gardner hypothesis. So far, however, the calculations of those who claim to have done that have been shown to be deeply flawed and there seems to be a growing consensus among knowledgable researchers that, barring events for which there is no known evidence, the airplane should have been able to reach Gardner. This, of course, does not establish that anything DID happen but it does fail to establish that something DIDN'T happen - which is also useful. The point I was trying to make is really the old negative hypothesis thing again. To really solve this mystery somebody will have to prove what DID happen. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:22:02 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Don Wilson's book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Linn Dow Ric, would you do me a favor and tell "Don J" to go read Don Wilson's book? If he can't find the book I will send him scans of certain of the pages. I have an HP Scanner, and it can go out Email as a download attachment. In the play I am working on I crashed Earhart on land which I could change, but that would be up to the producers at Gorilla Theater. We could have AE and FN pull up in a life raft with a scene of the Electra crashed on a coral reef in the background ....that would be do-able. In the play I went to considerable lengths pointing out how much "static" there was on Earhart's transmissions. Now listen you guys with the Tighar group, static is the customary way of jamming radio transmissions....pilots don't like transmissions loaded with static and that could go a long way to explain a lot of things. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FACTS.....All right start talking about FACTS for a change. That's fine with me....WHERE DID ALL THAT STATIC COME FROM? Earhart never had radio problems the way she had radio problems trying to reach Howland Island. IT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. I don't know how much you guys know about radio transmissions....but, it is very easy to jam transmissions by justly simply depressing the send button on a microphone.....you will cut in on an existing transmission. Even today, air traffic controllers have a lot of problems with exactly that, i.e....who gets to talk. Someone starts broadcasting static and a frequency will become useless. In Earhart's flight to Howland....go look at the records....go look at all the radio logs of how much static was on those transmissions. FACTS, YOU WANT FACTS? The radio logs ARE LOADED WITH ACCOUNTS OF STATIC AND MORE STATIC. Earhart flew Honolulu to Oakland. She called in 350 miles out and had no problems....none, in fact her messages were broadcast on CBS radio. The whole country was listening in. In fact Earhart talked and talked and talked on the flight. In the flight to Howland Island, Earhart was only using 4-5 frequencies, they would have been easy to "jam." SO NOBODY KNOWS WHERE THE PLANE WENT DOWN. Now isn't that interesting? You want my opinion someone needs to take off the "rose colored" glasses and start looking at the FACTS. That's an excellent idea. It would be a refreshing point of view for a change. Carol Linn Dow **************************************************************************** From Ric (I'm going to regret this. I just know it.) Carol, where did you get the idea that Earhart's communications problems were due to static? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:14:51 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Don Wilson's book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee Earlier I sent Ric a personal e-mail comparing -- with great compassion and understanding -- Carol Linn Dow with Janet Whitney. The similarities were startling and provocative. :-) I think CLD has set a record for this forum for proving one's ignorance. She accomplished in, what?, three postings that she really doesn't know what is happening here. Or maybe our defenses are getting better. After all we gave Sactodave and Janet many weeks and months in which to prove their slight and slippery grasp of the facts. Carol Linn Dow did it in less than a week. Imagine, a new record! Normally, I would suggest to Ric that we boot her, but things are slow and we do need the laughs. So let's keep her a few days for entertainment, then we'll eat her. LTM, who always enjoys a good meal Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ************************************************************************* From Amanda From Amanda Dunham "Gorilla Theater"??? Carol, If you're going to pull my leg, keep in mind that the left one hurts with arthritis, thanks. Have you seen the TIGHAR research on Earhart's belly antenna? The plane's, I mean! I must have missed the Itasca log's notes on static... Amanda Dunham, tighar #???? **************************************************************************** From Ric Before we carve up poor Carol let's remember that the only thing she's guilty of is reading and believing the myths and legends that have become Earhart's one lasting legacy. We're doing what we can to set the record straight but it's a bit arrogant to assume that we can instantly undo decades of historical abuse and expect everyone to fall into line. The woods are full of Carol Linn Dows. Some are looking for heros and role models. Others need a victim and martyr for women's rights. Still others seek affirmation of their own paranoid world view. Popular culture has created an Amelia Earhart to fill every need. I won't boot Carol off the forum and we're not going to make fun of her either. If she wants to stick around and learn something, that's fine. If not, that's okay too. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:18:46 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Putnam Message-Appendix A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Bright For those following the Putnam message investigation, additional informtion will be forwarded as Appendixes/Corrections. Reference (a) Putnam Message/Posted 20 April 01` APPENDIX A THE GEORGE PUTNAM LETTERS AND INTERVIEWS WITH THE FBI The George Putnam FBI file consists of 271 pages of letters, applications, memorandum, etc. However only a few documents are relevant to Putnam's "friend" and gave us the clue to his identity- Ahmad Kamal. These documents were written in the summer of 1938 while GP was residing at his N. Hollywood home. They contain background information of Putnam's "friend" that corresponded to Ahmad Kamal's activities in the 1930's, and Putnams efforts to recruit the "friend" for the FBI. Putnam never revealed the identity of his "friend". 30 June 1938 George Palmer Putnam, Amelia Earhart's husband, writes J. Edgar Hoover from his 10042 Valley Spring Drive,N. Hollywood,Ca., address, stating that he has an American citizen "friend" who recently returned from a "long journey in Central Asia". His friend speaks several Central Asian languages and was currently writing a book about those experiences. Putnam says his friend was working for the LA Japanese consulate and others collecting data on the ships, airplanes,ammunition, ambulances and the like that are being sent to China. With his friends permission, Putnam says he contacted the FBI and suggested they recruit him as a double agent. 21 July 1938 Two FBI agents, at the direction of J.Edgar Hoover, interviewed Putnam at his LA home. The reporting agent furnished a report of that interview. Putnam described the "young man" as approximately 24 years old [Kamal was born 1924] who was in " financial straits" at the time. Putnam was helping him secure work by introducing him to various motion picture executives and helping him publish a book[not identified] regarding his experiences in Central Asia. Note: Ahmad Kamal published the "Seven Questions of Timur" in Dec 1938. This book describes the adventures of a man in Central Asia as reported in reference (a). This is about 6-7 months after Putnams conversations with the FBI. Putnam related that the friend had been collecting information for the past three months for the Japanese Consulate. Reportedly the information was of a general nature regarding technical data,and plans of airplanes built on the Coast. Putnam said his friend kept photo copies of all reports, memos and telephone calls he made to the Japanese Consulate. Putnam was advised that the FBI could not enter into any agreement with him over his proposals. Because of this, Putnam declined to identify the "young man", but would provide him for an interview. It is clear that Putnam was not only trying to turn the young man into a double agent but to make the FBI aware of the circumstances so that if the young man got "caught" he could use the FBI's refusal as a bargaining chip. 13 AUG 1938 Two FBI agents went to Putnams home in N. Hollywood to interview the young man. According to the FBI report, when the Agents entered Putnam's house, they saw "several young men" waiting in the living room but Putnam immediately escorted the agents into his private office. They provide no descriptions of the men. None of the young men were identified or questioned. The FBI again declined to get involved in this espionage scheme and warned Putnam about espionage laws. Putnam said the friend had an immediate offer to go to Tokyo. Putnam would not divulge the name of the friend. Note: There is no indication that the FBI continued to investigate Putnam's involvement or attempt to identify the "friend". There are many pages of additional FBI documents relating to Putnams application to be a Special Agent with the FBI and other letters from Putnam to the FBI in 1941 and 1942 offering his service as a public minded citizen. There are no further letters or interviews that deal with Putnam's friend or any that identify him. CORRECTIONS In reference (a) Kamal's likely assignment to the Weihsein Camp was late Spring 1943, not 1942. The date of Kamal's pilot licensing, if one was issued, has not yet been establishe by FAA records, thus the estimated date of 1924 is incorrect as he would have been only 10 years old. And Pamela Master's sister, Ursula, did not "look up" Kamal in Los Angeles in 1947, but had a chance meeting with Kamal on the street. During that chance meeting, Kamal told Ursula about his efforts to sell a book something about "Six Fathoms Deep". (In fact in published a book titled "Full Fathom Five", Doubleday,in 1948) Investigation continuing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:20:00 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Static Facts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Russ Matthews (#0509CE) OK, I admit I haven't read the great Don Wilson's book, but I HAVE read the original Itasca radio logs. There is NO mention of static, sinister or otherwise. The final transmissions from the Earhart aircraft were reportedly received at signal strength "5." For Carol's benefit, that is the very top of the scale and translates to "loud and clear." Every firsthand account from the people present agrees that her voice was fairly booming from the receiver, indicating that KHAQQ was broadcasting within 100 miles of Howland Island -- that's "100" not "1,000" which is how far her signals would need to travel from the Marshalls. "Rose colored" or not, these are the FACTS. LTM, Russ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:24:44 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Static, Static, & more Static MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag For Carol Linn Dow; 2 questions for you: 1. Briefly explain everything you know about HF communications 2. Have you ever used an HF radio before? Doug Brutlag #2335 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:52:19 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Putnam Message-Appendix A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Marty Moleski Ric, Please discard if this is a duplicate ... > From Ron Bright > Putnam described the "young man" as approximately 24 years old > [Kamal was born 1924] who was in " financial straits" at the time. This must be a typo. You must have meant "born 1914." Marty #2359 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:20:31 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Don Wilson's book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Linn Dow Thanks Ric. I would like to see all the comments. Carol Linn Dow ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:21:00 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: static MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson The reason for radio static on Earhart's flight to Howland was the fact that the equatorial region at night is prone to thunderstorms: lightning causes static on the radio. On her flight to Honolulu, the probability of thunderstorms is much lower; hence, lower static levels. *************************************************************************** From Ric When did Earhart say anything about static? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:30:36 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Static, Static, & more Static MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Rick, Ok, so everybody wants to know about Carol Linn Dow. Yes, I have used radio communications before. I am a Beech Bonanza pilot with about 500 hours flying time I owned an M-35 if you know the model number. I talked with the FAA here in Kansas City about the frequencies Earhart was using in her day, and no, I'm sorry, but they were not considered VHF or "High Frequency." The 500-550 range is low frequency and is used for short wave radio transmissions and carries exceptionally long distances. The higher up the scale you go, the less the carrying distance. VHF, according to the FAA here was not used in 1937. VHF frequencies travel in a straight line, and they are only good for abut 100 miles. The lower frequencies follow the curvature of the earth which gives them their range. The next frequency range after VHF is UHF, but UHF is used exclusively by the military. I asked the FAA here quite some time ago if #3105 or #6210, either one, was considered VHF, and the answer was "no." I just assumed whoever asked the question about high frequency was referring to VHF. Also, you are getting into kilohertz AM and megahertz FM which are commercial civilian frequencies. Aviation frequencies are not the same. Ok another point ...close in, Earhart had great reception. It came in at the top end of the scale....that's fine. However, the great mystery to me is why she didn't stay put on a frequency that was working? Why all the switching around? Pilots don't go bouncing around on radio frequencies once a good contact is made. I'm telling you that from my own flying experience....it does not happen.....and it is very suspicious. I believe someone or somebody (probably the Japanese) was trying to cut her off. If it is true that would explain a lot of things. All you have to do is push on a mike button and you can cut into a transmission. Ric, this one is for you... I looked at your puff of smoke which was supposed to have been a broken antenna, and it came across on my screen the same color and consistency as the white rocks in the background.....in fact, I couldn't tell the difference. Also, Ric I can't imagine why a torn antenna would give off smoke. I've climbed inside plenty of airplanes, in addition to my Bonanza, and the antenna installations I have seen wouldn't give off smoke if they were broken...just the opposite, if the pressure was great enough they would just snap off. Maybe the smoke you were seeing came from the initial torque on the propellors as the engines went to max. power...that would be very believable. If there was any rocks or debris on the runway (including plain old dirt) it would flare up at the start of a takeoff roll. Airplane propellors have a lot of problems with rocks....they can put dents in the leading edge of the blade.....too many dents and it means a new propellor. An airplane that goes to max. power for takeoff will suck up all the dirt and debris on the runway like a vacuum sweeper. Propellors have to be "filed" down to get rid of the nicks and dents....I have done that a few times. If that leading edge isn't kept smooth, you won't get max. performance out of the prop. There is a possibility that a trailing wire type antenna was dragging on the ground, and it wrapped itself around a rock and started tearing up dirt and debris as Earhart started her take off roll. However, that sounds like a stretch of the imagination. A bouncing rock could have damaged the fuselage or the elevators or rudders at the rear of the plane... that would have been dangerous. So you can take all the punches at Carol Linn Dow you would like to take. It doesn't phase me in the least. I wish I knew how much hangar time I have spent listening to "wanna be" pilots and crazy stories about flying that don't make any sense. Before I accept criticism from anyone, I would like to know what your background is, how much flying time you have (if you are a rated pilot), and whether you have ever owned your own airplane. Here's some points from the last Email: 1. The first point I would to ask is Mr. Dennis O. McGee. You don't act like a gentleman Mr. McGee, and if it would serve any purpose in the future I would like to know who you are, what your flying background is, and have you ever spent any time with the Earhart's? 2. For Doug Brutlag....good questions. Hope you have some answers now. 3. For Amanda Durham....I hope you have some further ideas on belly antennas. 4. For Russ Mathews...the distance to the Marshall Islands from Howland is considerable. However, the book by Wilson amazed me. It is out of print so your best bet might be a library. I'm trying to quote this strictly from memory...Earhart's Electra fully loaded had a range of 3,000 miles. The distance to Howland was 2,250 miles. The mileage would be nautical. I believe these figures are correct. I checked some of the maps I have of the Pacific, and Howland to Mili Atoll (The Marshalls) looks like it is about about 700 miles. However, I don't have any aeronautical maps of the area so I can't verify that figure. Using an atlas vs. aeronautical maps can make a lot of difference so at best it's approximate. Your figure of 1,000 miles to Mili Atoll seems inaccurate. Earhart's Electra had so many fuel tanks on it I doubt seriously if she really knew how long it would fly. Running an airplane "bone" dry is a hard call. There is always a reserve involved and airplane fuel talk is usually referred to as "usable" fuel on board, which means there is always a certain amount left in the bottom of a tank which may or may not feed depending on whether you hit the booster switch. If you hit the booster fuel pump, you might be able to suck a tank dry but it would depend on the tank....some of them are metal and some of them are nothing more than heavy plastic bags. My M-35 Bonanza had heavy plastic bags that were replaceable which was a good deal especially if the fuel tanks started to leak. And do fuel tanks leak? Uh, huh, fuel tanks on airplanes have been known to leak....including the metal ones. Replacing metal fuel tanks is very, very expensive. Airplanes have special problems. 5. For Richard Gillespie, thanks for standing up for me. I don't mind taking punches, in fact, I welcome it. I'm having fun doing this. I don't mind it all. If this play I have ever gets off the ground, I'm going to get punched around all over the place. So, punch away. Lets see if I have the answers. I personally believe Earhart flew right into the hands of the Japanese and they got her and the airplane, both. If she crashed at sea the airplane would be gone by now, but she may have floated on their life raft into Japanese held territory or Nikamurora and wound up in a Japanese prison. Eventually she and Fred Noonan died or were executed, maybe on Nikamurora, who knows? For purposes of the play it became obvious the theatrical move would be to have a crash and capture scene. You raised an issue on the static problems, I am going to have to backtrack and search it out again. Switching all those channels back and forth trying to get to Howland....pardon me...what the hell was going on??? That is very strange and suspicious, Ric.....very. The whole rest of the trip she didn't have trouble like that with those radios....not even one complaint ....not one. Oh yes, before closing, Ric, Muriel Morrissey and I were personal friends (Amelia's sister). We wrote quite a few letters back and forth. I am thinking about donating the letters to the Earhart museum in Atchison. About, Muriel, she didn't have any idea of what happened to her sister. As far as she knows she just splashed in the sea. But I don't like to think of it that way, I think she was a martyr, one of the early victims of the war in the Pacific. She had everything to live for ...a wonderful husband, a career, and a great sister and mother in Boston whom she loved very much. Muriel was a great person. She was polite, intense, knowledgeable, educated, and very much a lady. She was just super, and I am sure Amelia was just like her...very nice people. What a tragic end she faced. But for those that fly....you always have to be ready to make the ultimate sacrifice. Best wishes to you Rick and to your search for Amelia Earhart. I'll see if I can track down the static references. Carol Linn Dow ************************************************************************* From Ric Carol, you are living proof that no good deed goes unpunished. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:31:24 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Putnam Message-Appendix A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Bright Corrrection to Appendix A Kamal was born in 1914, not 1924, or he would be 6mos old when he applied for his pilots license!! His son claims he actually was born in 1910, but we are checking. Thanks, Marty Moleski Ron Bright ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:35:45 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: APIA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Denise You ask: "Aggie Gray Hotel ... if it still exists." Last I heard, Aggie Grey had upgraded her hotel and it was a modern facility with everything you need to have a great time. As far as I know, it's still in business. I can ask someone if you like. And, BTW, Aggie was only half of the inspiration for Bloody Mary. The other was a brothel manager called Matilda Emberson. LTM (who always found both Aggie and Matilda vasty entertaining.) Denise ************************************************************************** From Ric Aggie Gray's Hotel is still very much in business. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:55:51 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: static MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson Ric asked: >When did Earhart say anything about static? She didn't, but the radio operators on Itasca noted static in their notes early in the morning. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:13:45 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Food for thought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee Carol Linn Dow said: "Yada, yada, yada . . . 1. The first point I would to ask is Mr. Dennis O. McGee. You don't act like a gentleman Mr. McGee, and if it would serve any purpose in the future I would like to know who you are, what your flying background is, and have you ever spent any time with the Earhart's? Etc. Etc. Etc." Let's not wait until next week, let's eat her now. LTM, who is issuing loud sighs Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:38:47 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: HF Radio Static MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dick Pingrey To Ric and the Forum, Everyone who uses or has used HF radio communications knows that static is always present. The degree of the static depens upon many variables such as the existance of thunder storms in the general area. If the radio signal is weak and the receiver volume is turned up to near maximum the static noise level or background noise lever, if you prefer to call it that, often drowns out the audio signal. That is the nature of HF radio communications. Noting static in the radio log because is hides the audio signal of a weak or far off station would not be unusual. The existance of static in no way indicates an attempt to jam or hide Amelia's radio transmissions. Dick Pingrey 908C **************************************************************************** From Ric You know that. I know that. And most of the forum knows that. Carol Linn Dow doesn't even know what an HF radio IS. Carol is a 500 hour pilot who seems to think she is addressing the local Rotary Club. *************************************************************************** From Andrew McKenna Carol writes << SO NOBODY KNOWS WHERE THE PLANE WENT DOWN. Now isn't that interesting? >> Yes it is, Carol, in fact it is fascinating, and that is why we are all trying to solve the mystery. TIGHAR is trying to do it by using the scientific method and looking at as much original source material as we can find, not by reading books by Don Wilson, Long, Goerner, et. al. If you are interested in writing a play, feel free to embellish any way you like. However, if you are interested in what really happened, you have to examine the origin of everything you think you know about the mystery. Basing what you know on Don Wilson's book simply is not good enough for the scientific method. Reading and examining the original radio logs is a better approach, and TIGHAR and this forum has done that in pretty exhaustive detail. Have you? We'll take off our rose colored glasses if you agree to examine your own preconceived notions. To do that I suggest you need to read all the stuff on the TIGHAR website, then come and ask questions to test what you think you know. You will find that our colored glasses got that way by being tempered in the crucible of peer review. Instead of assuming that static blocked all of Earhart's transmissions because Don Wilson says so, ask the Forum if there was any evidence of static. You will find there is a group of radio experts who can talk your head off on the subject of radio transmissions, static, and stuff way beyond my understanding on the subject. In the end you might find that you have been fed information that has no basis in fact, and unfortunately the AE mystery is rife with disinformation. We are trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Why do I care? Your play at the Gorilla will have a lasting impact on those who view it. I would prefer that your play be as accurate as possible, and present the facts as they are known instead of making the mistake of repeating and disseminating the myths regarding AE that has dominated over the last 60 some odd years. Wouldn't you rather get the story right? LTM Andrew McKenna **************************************************************************** From Ric My prinicipal request of Carol is that she pick some other name for the lead character in her play. **************************************************************************** From Mike Everette From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194: For Carol Linn Dow AE had only 3 frequencies available. These were 500 Kilohertz (500 KHz), 3105 Kilohertz and 6210 Kilohertt. By the way, these can also be expressed as 0.5 Megahertz (0.5 MHz), 3.105 Megahertz (3.105 MHz) and 6.21 Megahertz (6.21 MHz). 500 KHz is a low-frequency channel. 3105 and 6210 are considered High frequency (HF). There is no evidence that AE ever actually used 500 KHz. Even if she had tried it, the nature of the antenna on NR16020 meant that little or no signal would actually be radiated. The antenna was far, far too short, and therefore inefficient. The antenna's proclivities also contributed to problems on her HF channels, but to a lesser degree than at 500. HF and VHF are very, very different as to signal propagation. From your description of your experience, I don't believe you have ever used HF radio nor are you familiar with its characteristics. That is not a fault; it's just not in your background. One cannot infer anything, really, about HF signal propagation from what happens at VHF. By the way, I am not an aviator but I am qualified to comment on this. I have over 20 years' experience in radio from the user side and the test bench side; this includes public safety radio, avionics, and Amateur Radio. I hold an FCC General Class radiotelephone certificate, an FCC Second Class radiotelegraph certificate (and endorsement for Radar), an Amateur Extra Class ham license, and PCIA (Personal Communications Industry Association) certification as a First Class Technician. Additionally I am a trained, degreed historian (MA, NCSU)who specializes in technological history in general, and radio communications in particular. I am quite familiar with the radio communications problems on the Earhart flight and have done considerable research into this, from the standpoint of the equipment and the installation aboard this aircraft. To make a long story short, we don't know ALL the answers; but, enough is known to be quite certain that the equipment she had was inadequate for the job. It was primitive at best. It was full of operational quirks ("switchology problems") that could and probably did cause all kinds of cockpit trouble; and likely was a key factor in her disappearance. LTM (who likes things user-friendly) and 73 (radiospeak for Best Wishes) Mike E. **************************************************************************** From Ric Carol, it may also interest you to know that Doug Brutlag and several of the other folks you've been instructing on aviation matters are multi-thousand hour professional pilots with vast transoceanic experience. *************************************************************************** rom Dean A #2056 One of the reasons I don't post that much to the forum is that I know my limitations. Another reason is that I am very efficient with my time, i.e.. I DON'T LIKE TO WASTE TIME IN IDLE SPECULATION THAT CAN AMOUNT TO NOTHING ! What I find very wasteful is all the time spent by people who have not been on the forum very long asking dumb questions and jabbering on about their own theories which have no basis in fact. A bigger waste of time are all the responses by people who know better but insist on replying to these dumb ramblings. When I encounter postings like Carol Linn's I read a few lines of it and hit the delete button. This remark is NOT intended to speak poorly of Carol Linn, but simply saying for myself, who has supported TIGHAR and have been on the forum a while don't want to have my time wasted by bantering back and forth about total BS !!! If people are serious about TIGHAR'S work I suggest that they read up on the forum for a while before they speak out of total ignorance. I usually won't "waste my time " with a letter like this but I find myself increasingly hitting that delete button and this is actually becoming a bigger waste of time than "venting " . :-) ************************************************************************** From Ric I know what you mean and I sympathize. We've let Carol have her say and she has amply demonstrated her level of competence on this subject. In the interest of preserving everyone's sanity, not wasting any more time, and saving Carol from embarrassing herself more than she already has, I'll impose the "Substantive Posting" rule. If she has a question or comment that is actually substantive I'll post it. Otherwise, I'll deal with it off-forum. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:41:17 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Lae airport MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Phil Tanner This was on the site of the Papua New Guinea paper The National on 30 April. I assume the old airport is the one that Earhart took off from. The new one is apparently at a place called Nadzab. LTM (who finds PNG fascinating to read about but doesn't hanker after a visit) Phil 2276 -------------------------------------------- THE old Lae airport situated in the heart of the city will be divided into industrial leases for companies, government institutions and non-government organisations to set up their operations. Included in the old airport redevelopment plan the government will build a new suburban police station, a primary school and a courthouse. A new two-way lane road will be constructed in the middle of the runway that will connect the Markham road junction roundabout to the end of the runway to link up with the new road network currently being built by Barclay Brothers. Morobe governor Luther Wenge showed reporters the redevelopment plan of the old airport at a recent press conference and said he is confident that many new industries will apply through the provincial tenders office to acquire a portion of the land. "I'm pleased to say that the clearing work has begun with Barclay Brothers and various youth groups clearing the land at the old airport and work is expected to be completed within the next few months before the handover of the road by AusAID to the PNG government," said Mr Wenge. He said all the tender documents have been prepared and they are waiting for the clearing work to be completed before they are issued. Mr Wenge explained that the clearing work started on the land on the opposite end of the runway next to the Air Niugini ticketing office and the Highlands highway bus stop. "Youth and womens groups in the city were also awarded contracts to clear the land leading towards the hospital and Markham road junction roundabout," said Mr Wenge. According to Mr Wenge many companies and individuals have already applied to acquire a piece of land on the old runway to establish their businesses. **************************************************************************** From Ric it would be nice if somebody put up a "historic marker" to commemorate Earhart's final takeoff. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:42:12 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Research assistance? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194: CQ CQ ... does anyone know where to find archives of either "Radio" or "R/9" Magazines? These were ham radio publications from the 1930s. They merged in 1936, with "Radio" being the surviving title. I'm specificaly looking for information on ham operators who may have been involved with AE on the round-the-world flight or any other time, as "back up communications." I've checked QST Magazine, Radio News, and others to no avail. A handful of scattered issues of "Radio" and "R/9" are in my collection, but of course not from 1937 which is what are most needed. These magazines would have been far more likely to publish "newsy" information like this. (Yes, I have also combed aviation magazines of the period but there is nothing regarding ham radio... in fact there is not much about radio of any kind w.r.t. AE.) More than likely, some engineering-school or university library has bound volumes.... somewhere. If these magazines are available on CD-ROM that's what would be most useful. 73 Mike E. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:58:53 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Static, Static, & more Static MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From John Rayfield I can't help but comment on some of Carol's posting....but I'll keep it short. :-) Carol, first of all, UHF is NOT "used exclusively by the military". My company (Rayfield Communications, Inc.) uses many UHF frequencies for business 2-way radio systems, as do MANY MANY other businesses all over the United States (and in other countries too). This is just ONE example of the inaccuracy of the information that you've gotten from others on the subject of 'radio'. I would suggest that you find other sources for your information on this subject of 'radio'. By the way, I don't know everything about 'radio' (I'm always learning something new), but I can speak with a little bit of 'authority' on this subject. I've owned a 'commercial' 2-way radio shop for over 23 years (working on and using HF, 'low VHF', 'high VHF', UHF, 800 mhz., and microwave radio equipment, for businesses and police, fire, etc.), and have been a licensed amateur radio operator for over 26 years (Extra Class, for about 2 years, Advanced Class for most of the other 24 years), working on and using HF, VHF, and UHF amateur radio equipment. I also hold a General Radiotelephone license (actually, held 1st Class license until the FCC dropped that particular license, and everyone was 'converted' to General Class). I've also done custom radio system development work for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, as well as development work on 'radio' products that are used by the Washington State Department of Transportation and Hyundai. Oh, and by the way, 'static' is NORMAL for HF communications - my wife HATES to listen to the HF 'ham' radio when I've got it in the car. She says that she doesn't understand how I can listen to all of that 'static'. :-) John Rayfield, Jr. President - Rayfield Communications, Inc. Springfield, Missouri *************************************************************************** From Stephen Enzweiler Solar events also determine to a degree static levels, and even the ability on given freqs whether you can transmit or be heard at all. Any way of knowing what the sun was doing at the time?? **************************************************************************** From Ric Oh yeah. Bob Brandenburg has made quote a study of the sunspot situation at that time and has incorporated it in his evaluation of the pre and post-loss radio transmissions. **************************************************************************** From Marty Moleski > From Dick Pingrey > ... There is no evidence that AE ever actually used 500 KHz. Even if she had > tried it, the nature of the antenna on NR16020 meant that little or no > signal would actually be radiated. The antenna was far, far too short, > and therefore inefficient. Two additional points: 1. I believe that 500 KHz was reserved for Morse code (CW, "continuous wave"). It was a frequency monitored by ships at sea. Transmitting voice on that frequency would have been a waste of time. 2. Neither Amelia nor Fred were much good at CW. Ric has posted evidence several times which suggests that the CW key was not taken on the fatal flight. That left them with 3105 and 6210 to play with. They could also receive 7500, but the Itasca had no voice capacities on 7500. All that the Itasca could do was to transmit CW on 7500. I play with radio-controlled airplanes on the 72 MHz band. I also have read all of TIGHAR's site and remember some of what I've read. ;o) Marty #2359 *************************************************************************** From Ross Devitt Looks like we have one of those "I know everything because I'm an expert pilot" people... > Ok, so everybody wants to know about Carol Linn Dow. Yes, I have used radio > communications before. I am a Beech Bonanza pilot with about 500 hours > flying time I owned an M-35 if you know the model number. I also have time logged in a Beech Baron BE58 - so what? >I talked with the > FAA here in Kansas City about the frequencies Earhart was using in her day, You would have been better off talking to a radio amateur. > The 500-550 range is low frequency and is used for short wave radio > transmissions and carries exceptionally long distances. The higher up the > scale you go, the less the carrying distance. VHF, according to the FAA > here was not used in 1937. VHF frequencies travel in a straight line, and > they are only good for abut 100 miles. Damn.. So when I am flying in North Queensland and ATC asks me to switch to Brisbane central (about 1000 miles away) I'm really talking to the fairies? >The lower frequencies follow the > curvature of the earth which gives them their range. Good heavens.. When I trained as a radio technician in the Air Force I was led to believe that the low frequencies were subject to reflection off terrain, which could make them a little unreliable at times, especially when used for beacons. >The next frequency > range after VHF is UHF, but UHF is used exclusively by the military. Yep, as far as aviation is concerned unless something has changed this one is correct. >I > asked the FAA here quite some time ago if #3105 or #6210, either one, was > considered VHF, and the answer was "no." I just assumed whoever asked the > question about high frequency was referring to VHF. Also, you are getting > into kilohertz AM and megahertz FM which are commercial civilian > frequencies. Aviation frequencies are not the same. Interesting concept. kilohertz, AM, megahertz and FM are not aviation frequencies. That just might make quite a difference to the airline pilots that have to use them daily. I wonder which aviation academy was responsible for that gem. > Ok another point ...close in, Earhart had great reception. It came in at > the top end of the scale....that's fine. However, the great mystery to me > is why she didn't stay put on a frequency that was working? Why all the > switching around? Pilots don't go bouncing around on radio frequencies once > a good contact is made. I'm telling you that from my own flying > experience....it does not happen.....and it is very suspicious. Obviously you haven't yet picked up much experience whilst accumulating 500 hours. Very early in the flight, Earhart decided to change frequencies whilst talking to a station (Lae) that asked her not to change because they had good reception, but she changed anyway and they lost contact with her immediately. The obvious (to almost everyone else on the forum) reason for a pilot to go bouncing around on radio frequencies is because the pilot can't hear anything on their main frequency. Apparently the only time she fluked a signal was on her Direction Finder antenna. > I believe someone or somebody (probably the Japanese) was trying to cut her > off. > If it is true that would explain a lot of things. All you have to do is > push on a mike button and you can cut into a transmission. Which will then overlay your signal on top of the one you are trying to block. There is no mention of hearing that sort of interference, and to do that the blocking station has to be very powerful or very close and the receiving station can pick up the interference. It would have been entered in the radio log in the ship. > Ric, this one is for you... I looked at your puff of smoke which was > supposed to have been a broken antenna, and it came across on my screen the > same color and consistency as the white rocks in the background.....in > fact, I couldn't tell the difference. Also, Ric I can't imagine why a torn > antenna would give off smoke. Puff of smoke? Carol, if you bother to read the forum history before you jump in you'll probably find that it was claimed to "look like a puff of smoke" just so people would know what to look for in the movie. It is supposedly dust raised when something hit or dragged on the ground as the aircraft was taking off. There was also an anecdote that someone long ago said it was no wonder Earhart disappeared as she left part of her antenna lying on the runway. This anecdote has never been verified, proved or whatever - it is just a story. If it was true however it would explain the puff and the later radio problems. > Airplane propellors have a lot of problems with rocks....they can put dents > in the leading edge of the blade.....too many dents and it means a new > propellor. An airplane that goes to max. power for takeoff will suck up all > the dirt and debris on the runway like a vacuum sweeper. Propellors have to > be "filed" down to get rid of the nicks and dents....I have done that a few > times. You have filed down your own prop edges? Really? Remind me NEVER to fly with you. >If that leading edge isn't kept smooth, you won't get max. > performance out of the prop. If that prop you've been filing isn't very well balanced it is possible the engine will tear itself off the mounts, or at least damage the engine bearings (they are inside the engine provided you didn't leave them out last time you pulled it apart). >There is a possibility that a > trailing wire type antenna was dragging on the ground, and it wrapped > itself around a rock and started tearing up dirt and debris as Earhart > started her take off roll. However, that sounds like a stretch of the > imagination. As the strip at Lae was grass, it is just possible that an antenna dragging on the ground wouldn't need a rock to raise a bit of dust. >A bouncing rock could have damaged the fuselage or the > elevators or rudders at the rear of the plane... that would have been > dangerous. Not that many rocks in the middle of most grass airstrips - really - count them some time.. > So you can take all the punches at Carol Linn Dow you would like to take. > It doesn't phase me in the least. I wish I knew how much hangar time I have > spent listening to "wanna be" pilots and crazy stories about flying that > don't make any sense. Phase you? Perhaps a term from Star Trek? Maybe it doesn't faze you either. This forum is about trying to unravel the mystery of what happened to Earhart and Noonan. It is not about pilots, "wanna be" or not. A number of pilots on the forum who are there partly because the Earhart mystery is aviation related give opinions based on their experience. Some of these pilots are current and ex airline and military pilots, others like myself have relatively few hours. This is not a pilots' forum nor is it an aviation forum. >Before I accept criticism from anyone, I would like > to know what your background is, Multi skilled. Airforce, Government, Private Enterprise. >how much flying time you have (if you are > a rated pilot), Oh, poor me.. only 70 hours logged in 8 single and twin aircraft (logged). All the hours flying that can't be officially logged don't count. Unfortunately I only fly as a hobby, among other hobbies (sailing etc.) >and whether you have ever owned your own airplane. In this country? You've got to be kidding. It's much cheaper to hire whatever seating capacity one requires and let some other poor devil worry about the insurance, fuel and maintenance. I can hire an aircraft for a couple of hours a week every week including all expenses for 5 years for the cost of buying an average aircraft. Not many of my friends that do own light aircraft in this country average 50 to 100 hrs a year. Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:16:23 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: CLD (Carol Linn Dow)'s pending blood bath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Troy From Troy <<<<< Ric said: "Carol, you are living proof that no good deed goes unpunished." and "Before we carve up poor Carol let's remember that the only thing she's guilty of is reading and believing the myths and legends that have become Earhart's one lasting legacy. ... I won't boot Carol off the forum and we're not going to make fun of her either. If she wants to stick around and learn something, that's fine. If not, that's okay too." >>>>> Time to throw sand on the deck..... The FAQ's would be a great place to start for CLD. I know it is where I started and it kept me mostly out of trouble before "shooting from the lip". I am always amazed at how much I have learned on this forum when I read postings like CLD's. This sounds like another Jihad opportunity to proselyte Earhart facts and dispute the fiction with another person who (like myself) believed the lies and make believe of others. Anyway, Carol, you are in for quite an interesting education from this forum. Hopefully, you will approach it in an open-minded yet skeptical manner (willing to change your beliefs in the light of critically examined fact). This forum is relentless in its pursuit of fact--better get out the triage gear..... LTM, Troy Tighar#2348 **************************************************************************** From Roger Kelley Carol Linn Dow wrote: "I personally believe Earhart flew right into the hands of the Japanese and they got her and the airplane, both." The standards by which TIGHAR and many of those who participate on this forum, base their opinions are quite strict. Our standards are to accept only oral evidence (eye witness / anecdotal accounts), corroborated by physical evidence (artifacts) and irrefutable physical evidence. Absent sufficient evidence in these two categories, I will review circumstantial evidence and may, repeat may, form an opinion based upon circumstantial evidence. To my knowledge, there are no eyewitness accounts, corroborated by physical evidence, or physical evidence alone, which support any claim that the Japanese were in involved with Amelia Earhart during her second world flight attempt. Or, Japanese involvement in her first world flight attempt. Lots of rumors, but no evidence. Carol also wrote: "I think she was a martyr, one of the early victims of the war in the Pacific." The statement that Amelia Earhart was an early victim of the war in the Pacific, in my opinion, has no factual foundation when the above standard is applied. Again, I differ with Carol's belief that Amelia Earhart is a "martyr." Fact: Amelia Earhart was "Pilot in Command" during the second world flight attempt. Fact: As 'Pilot in Command," Amelia Earhart is responsible for the failure of the flight. Fact: As "Pilot in Command," Amelia Earhart is directly responsible for her own death and the death of her crew (regardless of how they met their demise). Why is the "Pilot in Command, Amelia Earhart," responsible? She failed to safely fly the aircraft to Howland Island. It woud be wise if Carol would site the evidence and the source of the evidence on which her opinions are formed. Hopefully, her source will adhere to the standards embraced by TIGHAR. I welcome new evidence in our on going debate. Alas, Carol also wrote: "Before I accept criticism from anyone, I would like to know what your background is, how much flying time you have (if you are a rated pilot), and whether you have ever owned your own airplane." In other words, if Carol does not like the message, trash the source. The "in your face" attitude Carol displays in her response may indicate a lack of social skills, possibly a closed mind and, I would suspect, fear of exposure or fear of defeat. Such an attitude, in my opinion, serves only to degrade the quest for truth and knowledge in any environment. LTM, Roger Kelley *************************************************************************** From Pete For Carol With 8 years in the Navy dealing with hours every Watch of VHF communications, the static is always there. 3105 and 6210 can be "dirty freqs" depending on many factors. My last Cruise was 1997, and I had filters to help get rid of alot of crud, just like Automatic Gain Control was nice to have. 1937 meant vacuum tubes, air capacitors for tuning, and other things the Forum can tell you about available hardware. The only "clean" transmissions I've ever done were via satcom (satellite). How about ending the play with fog machines and an unseen voice with "We know not were she has gone, but there are those that seek to find her. Someday the mists that hide her from us may be burned away by the light of discovery. The Sky is not the limit, Death is not the end, Courage is the price." Pete (TIGHAR # pending) ************************************************************************** From Alan Caldwell Carol, I'm Alan. I'm an attorney in Austin with 18 years of experience dealing with facts or at least trying to sort out lies, assumptions, and misinformation, etc from each case I handle. I cannot go into court with unsupported information. I am also a retired USAF pilot with a meager 4,000 hours flown mostly across both oceans and some during 5 years in Vietnam. I also have 1100 combat missions so I well know what goes through pilot's minds when all Hell breaks loose and all goes wrong. My son and I were friends of Murial and Albert from 1976 until Albert's demise and Murial's debilitating stroke and eventual death. Everyone on this forum, whether they always realize it or not has great and valuable experience and knowledge and contribute immensely to solving a very tough puzzle. We all try to be gentlemen and gentleladies. Sometimes we fail out of misunderstandings and frustration. We each have a great sense of humor and a tough hide because we get bombed by each other at times. This is a very difficult and complex problem and sometimes we forget some of the basic facts and say really stupid things. Rarely do we get away with that. Our gentle forum mates turn quickly into voracious sharks and we rush back to the TIGHAR web site to refresh our memories. We try to do all this in good humor but sometimes frustration gets the best of us as you can see by some of the comments to you. So in the spirit of good rational and scientific investigation I'll make a deal with you. I note that you have a copy of a book whose author has you somewhat sold on his theories. I also remember you offered one forum member a few of the more pertinent pages attached to a note. If you will send me those same pages you feel important to me at acaldwell@aol.com I'll read them and reply to your address off the forum as to what my response would be. It'll be my opinion of course but I will point out factual errors if any. What I ask you to do is go to the TIGHAR web site and read everything carefully and let me know what you see that is incorrect or that you don't buy and why. Then we will both be in a position to discuss matters more intelligently. Is that a deal? Alan #2329 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:32:11 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Research assistance? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Bright For Mike the Radioguy, Maybe this is old news. For the Mar 37 flight to Hawaii, Walter McMenamy set up an intercontinental network of hams to help AE. Among them was Karl Pierson, Joseph Gurr, and Guy Dennis. Emmett Paterson, of Paterson Radio Co., used an entirely new type of short wave receiver, the PR-15. All belonged to the Radio Relay League. According to Randall Brink four other operators, unnamed, but stations were identified by call letter, also helped. Other hams were listed as Dr. Ferris Thompson and William McCartney of Hawaii,F.W Nolan, Australia, and Jacques Berlant of New York City. No station identifiers. (Maybe AE was trying to signal Berlant in NY per Betty) Another help might be Donna Halper, a radio/ham expert in Boston, specialising in historical stuff. Her email is dlh@donnahalper.com. Tell her I sent you. LTM, RON Bright (Source; Randal Brinks, Lost Star) **************************************************************************** From Ric Maybe this information is correct. Seems like there MUST be SOMETHING in Brink's book that is true, but we'll have to have something a whole lot better than Brink's say-so before we give it any credence at all. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:37:17 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Aggie Grey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From Malcolm Andrews This has got nothing to do with AE. But I can't let the repeated mistake about Aggie Grey go uncorrected. She never was the inspiration for Bloody Mary - as James A Michener explained to passengers on the cruise ship Island Princess that was visiting Espirito Santo (Vanuatu) in 1992, several years before his death. The character of Bloody Mary was based on a Tokinese (North Vietnamese) woman he knew when serving in Santo during World War II. Her niece even came to see Michener when the ship docked in Santo's capital Luganville. It was the only time he had returned to Vanuatu (New Hebrides) since the War. The Samoan tourist chiefs like to push the myth that it was Aggie Grey. And, for the record, Bali-ha'i was based on Ambae Island just off Santo. When the Americans began arriving during World War II, the worried plantation owners secretly sent their wives and daughters across to Ambae to make sure they wouldn=E2=80=99t be corrupted by the supposedly world-wise GI= s. Cheers Malcolm Andrews #2409 **************************************************************************** From Ric Off topic, yes, but we never pass up an opportunity to bust a myth. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:40:02 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Lae airport MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan Caldwell > it would be nice if somebody put up a "historic marker" to commemorate > Earhart's final takeoff. > If not already adequately done all the buildings (if any remain) should be searched for any possible information relating to AE. Alan #2329 *************************************************************************** From Ric The old Guinea Airways buildings were all destroyed when the 5th Air Force bombed the place into oblivion. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:11:45 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Bloody Mary myths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee Ric said: "Off topic, yes, but we never pass up an opportunity to bust a myth." Well, there is a whole new career -- Myth Buster -- for if you get tired of chasing AE and FN around the Pacific. Lord knows you've got enough experience. LTM, who is hit and myth today Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ************************************************************************** From Ric Who ya gonna call? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:12:57 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Static, Static, & more Static MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan Caldwell Good post Ross and all. Once again Carol should be able to see there is a multitude of expertese among forum members. There is much aviation talk but as Ross pointed out this is not a pilot's or an aviation forum. It is a scientific investigation forum. This particular problem may be about a lost aircraft but one doesn't need to be a pilot or a radio expert to help solve it. As to radios, I used VHF, UHF, HF and FOX MIKE during my years in the Air Force. FM was used extensively in Vietnam. I had FM in my plane but had little call to use it. I mostly used UHF. I don't know how this static thread got started but I see it as a non-issue. I've heard static all my life on radios. there's nothing unusual about it. FM was supposed to be mostly static free but for the life of me I don't recall. I hardly ever used it. The Army used it quite a bit. This mystery will get solved but not from radio or pilot expertese but from the guys rooting around on the ground and the general area of Niku. Alan #2329 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:32:01 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: CLD (Carol Linn Dow)'s pending blood bath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Linn Dow Good....some nice, polite and considerate comments from everyone at Tighar. Yes I'm going to scan the pages from the Wilson book and we can all take a look. No, I have no compulsions from being defeated....that doesn't faze me in the least. All I want is the truth so I can figure out how to end the play. That really helps if you introduce yourself and give me some background information on who you are. I'll get back to everyone, but I need time. Ric, I don't agree with some of your comments ...sorry. I need time....give me some more time. Carol Linn Dow ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:21:33 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: CLD (Carol Linn Dow)'s pending blood bath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Wes Smith Sometimes the forum succeeeds in distributing pain. Misplaced aggression due to chronic frustration and the inabiltiy to solve an ongoing mystery. *************************************************************************** From Ric Nah. I think the forum finds great satisfaction and takes great (and deserved) pride in it's demonstrated ability to sift fact from myth and make genuine progress toward solving the mystery. What you call aggression is merely annoyance. Some of us have never learned how to suffer fools gladly. I hope we never have need of aggression. Yes, sometimes the forum succeeds in distributing pain. Peer review is a painful process. It has to be. Otherwise everyone just wallows around in a politically correct Never-Never Land where all opinions are equal, everyone feels "empowered", and nobody learns anything. Pain purifies. We accept the pain of peer review in the hope of avoiding the pain of failure. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:58:34 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Wilson's book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Warren Lambing Hi Carol I have Mr. Wilson's book, I got it in Rochester NY May 13, 1995, from the Author himself and he signed it. I have also read it and he writes a very convincing book, everyone who read my copy is convinced by his writing. However, I am not convinced, he lacks solid evidence, he has a lot of second hand information, but no solid evidence and the probability of his story is not supported by facts. For example he writes on page 169 in his summary, under the heading final words, quote "The legend I have told is no doubt partially true and partially fiction. That is the nature of legends. Perhaps more information will come to light to make the story more accurate." end of quote. He goes on to say why he believes this story is probable. Of interest to me is that Donald Wilson did not to my knowledge to interview any of the individuals who give accounts of seeing a white woman and man who were imprison on Saipan, he gives their accounts, but he interviews none of them, even the ones still alive, he also quotes mostly from Fred Goerner's work, but again does no work to confirm Goerner's information first hand, other then gathering second hand information concerning Goerners work. Please consider I have nothing against Mr. Wilson, I met him briefly and consider him an honorable man, however one of my long time hobbies is genealogy and from doing that, you work with a lot of family traditions, you try to confirm those traditions with facts, sometimes you confirm them sometimes you don't, when you can't confirm traditions or legends as Mr. Wilson put it, then they remain in doubt. With family legends you hit dead ends when doggedly trying to stick to them, and more then not you find them to be inaccurate and, when you finally recognize that they are inaccurate, you can finally make progress by taking in the real facts (which is always more interesting). Tighar looks at facts and tries to confirm them with as much as they can with first hand information that they can find. Yes they look at second hand sources, but they also keep them as second hand information until solid evidence can be found to support or dismiss the second hand accounts. Look why not enjoy the forum for a while and then if you see feel the need to bring in Mr. Wilson's book. Regards. Warren Lambing ************************************************************************** From Ric For what it's worth, I corresponded with Don Wilson quite a bit before his book was published and he visited me here to drop off a copy when it came out. Like so many Earhart conspiracy books, it's a "vanity press" publication (they didn't pay him; he paid them). The book is nothing more than a compilation of uncorroborated anecdotes gathered by various conspiracy buffs over the years. All the characters are there: Elieu Jibambam, Lotan Jack, Bosket Diklan "Queen of Mili", the inestimable Bilimon Amaran - and many more. He faithfuly recites the theories and allegations presented by the pantheon of Earhart conspiracy authors ( Goerner, Devine, Gervais, Knaggs, Loomis, etc., etc.). Don Wilson is a retired United Church of Christ minister. It is perhaps not surprising that he takes it on faith that the eyewitness accounts he relates are true. Don is a mild-mannered, sincere gentleman who, like the Earhart His book has value primarily as a summary of more than 60 years of Earhart mythology. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:00:59 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: What's in a name? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Lawrence M. Glazer I've been a regular Forum Highlights reader for several years and finally decided to join TIGHAR because I've enjoyed the forum's (and Ric's) good humor, historiographic standards and even modesty, and because you need the money for the next expedition. In my view, Betty's notebook does not contain any unambiguous occult references ("occult" in the sense of the term used by Ric in his analysis, meaning knowable only by Fred & Amelia at that time) but it does have some tantalizing possibilities, of which "NYC" being a possible "Norwich City" is the most tantalizing. Here is my question: Is there evidence that a person on Niku in 1937 would be able to SEE THE NAME "Norwich City" either on the shipwreck or on some debris? Keep up the good work. Lawrence M. Glazer **************************************************************************** From Ric Excellent question. Here's what we know: - Norwich City went aground at Gardner on November 30, 1929. - We have a photo of her taken in Vancouver, B.C. the previous April in which it is clear that her name is painted in white letters on the starboard (and we presume also the port) side of her bow. No way to be sure that her name was also on her stern but it certainly should have been there. - The earliest photos we have her aground on the reef were taken by Eric Bevington in October 1937 when he and Harry Maude visited the island with 19 Gilbertese delegates to evaluate Gardner for future colonization. Her back is broken and her stern is underwater, so any name on her stern is not an issue anyway. None of Bevington's photos show the bow from close enough to tell whether the name was still there and legible. In his diary, Bevington does not refer to the ship by name but only as "a cargo steamer", however, in Harry Maude's official report of the visit (dated 19 November 1937) he refers to the ship as the Norwich City. - Apparently the ship's name was not mentioned in Sailing Directions available in 1937, nor was there even mention of it's presence on the reef, because the USS Colorado's pilots were not expecting to see it, nor were Maude and Bevington three months later. When the captain of the Colorado submitted updated Sailing Directions information about Gardner to the Hydrographic Office in August 1937, he treated the presence of the steamer as new information and made no mention of its name. - The official report of the New Zealand Pacific Aviation Survey Expedition of late 1938/early 1939 reports the name of the ship as "City of Norwich" but the maps produced as a result of that survey coorectly show the wreck as "Norwich City." We have several photos taken during that expedition which show the bow of the ship. No name is discernible but the resolution of the photos is not that great either. It may be that by then, nine years after the ship went aground, the elements had made the name very hard to see. - Gallagher, who first visited Gardner while the New Zealand Survey party was still there, knew the name of the ship but had inaccurate information about when it got there. In short, the fact that we know the name was visible on the bow a few months before the accident and that Maude in 1937, and Gallagher and the New Zealanders in 1938 knew the ship's name, seems to argue for the name being visible in July 1937. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:02:21 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Taking your time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Andrew McKenna << I'll get back to everyone, but I need time. Ric, I don't agree with some of your comments ...sorry. I need time....give me some more time. Carol Linn Dow >> Carol, We've been at it for over 12 years. Take all the time you need. LTM(who's in no hurry to reveal her secrets) Andrew McKenna #1045CE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:32:05 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: CLD (Carol Linn Dow)'s pending blood bath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From (unsigned) Hang tough girl, one must not tie a ship to a single anchor nor life to a single hope, give'em hell. *************************************************************************** From Ric As advice goes, that has to rank right up there with, "Remember, a wet bird never flies at night." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:43:57 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: CLD (Carol Linn Dow)'s pending blood bath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Wes Smith I would agree with you about "peer review" if I believed that was the essence of the process. Some have taken the notion of peer review and have morphed it into peer assasination. Further, I am convinced that very substantive progress towards the solution is still possible on the forum if the forum will tolerate amateurish notions or simple "dumb questions" like tolerant, well-mannered adults are encouraged to do. Suffering the fools should be a noble aspiration of the forum intelligencia and it might improve monetary support as well. Hail to the Earhart elitists! Just kidding . . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:12:45 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Niku IIII funding status MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Art Carty Sign me up for $100.00 Do you have my credit card number? How much more needs to be raised for this? Art Carty #2268 *************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Art. We'll check and let you if we need a card number. With Jim Thompson's matching contributions we're actually in good shape on paying for the satellite imagery. A much bigger issue is the final charter payment for the expedition ship which is coming up June 1st. Our sale of media rights last year anticipated a 26 day charter at a cost of $119,600. We subsequently expanded the expedition another nine days which added $41,400 for a total of $161,000. In other words, the expedition will be longer and more expensive than we anticipated when we sold the media rights. The extra days became available and we really wanted them, so we made the commitment knowing that we'd have to raise the extra money. Of that, we have paid $39,468 in accordance with the terms of the contract. The remaining balance of $121,532 is due June 1st. The media deal will cover $91,630 of that but the remaining $29,902 has to come from general fund-raising (along with normal operating expenses, etc.). At this point, in nice round numbers, we're about $10,000 short to make the boat payment so you can expect me to be banging the fund-raising drum for the rest of this month. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:43:39 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Myth and legend MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Holt When did the conspiracy and the Japanese capture idea originate? Was that mooted at the time or was it something that appeared after WW2? Mike Holt *************************************************************************** From Ric The very first conspiracy claim was a front-page article that appeared in an Australian publication called Smith's Weekly on October 16, 1937 under the headline "U.S. Does Australia A Secret Service". The article claimed that the U.S. Navy used the Earhart search as an excuse to scout out Japanese activity in the Marshalls but there was no allegation that Earhart had been in on it or had disappeared on purpose. Nobody seems to have paid much attention to the article. The real birth of the conspiracy theories seem to date from the Hollywood film "Flight For Freedom" released in 1943. It was based on a script of disputed authorship originally entitled "Stand By To Die" and was a very transparent fictionalized account of the Earhart/Noonan flight in which "Toni Carter" (Earhart) agreed to intentionally "get lost" to give the Navy an excuse to recon the Marshalls. When the plan is discovered by the Japanese, brave Toni suicidally crashes her plane into the ocean to give the search legitimacy. From there, life imitated art and all sorts of "clues" began to emerge to support the basic premise that Earhart's disappearance in 1937 was somehow connected to the cataclysm that erupted four years later. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:42:56 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: fund raising MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee Ric said: At this point, in nice round numbers, we're about $10,000 short to make the boat payment so you can expect me to be banging the fund-raising drum for the rest of this month. And a lousy job it is. When the Combined Federal Campaign comes knocking each year I use two criteria in making my contributions. One is completely subjective, "Do I support this organization's mission," and the other is completely objective, "What portion of my donation is used to cover the organization's 'administrative' costs." Ideally, 100 percent of my donation would support an organization's mission, but then reality raises it's ugly head. To the best of my recollection, an organization's administrative costs would not exceed 15 percent in a perfect world. Realistically, something in the 20 percent range is more the norm, I believe. On a more positive but considerably less certain note, this weekend's Big Lotto (or whatever it is called) has an annuity value of about $90 million. If I win I'll give TIGHAR 1.1 percent, just like I give the CFC. My numbers are . . . whoops! . . . hey, I don't want to give them away now, do I? :-) LTM, who wouldn't miss a mere $990,000 Dennis O. McGee #0149EC *************************************************************************** From Ric In the nonprofit world, "administrative costs" is a euphemism for "fund-raising costs." In other words, how much of what I give you are you going to spend raising more money as opposed to doing the work of the organization? In TIGHAR's case that amount is so small as to be almost invisible. We pay no "Development Director" to beat the bushes. We buy no advertising. We stage no fund-raising events. We inventory some T-shirts - that's about it. Technically, the portion of my time that I spend fund-raising is chargable that way but the truth is I HATE fund-raising per se and much prefer to spend my time doing the work of the organization. I figure that good work will be recognized and rewarded far better than good salemanship. By doing good work we attract volunteer expertise that we don't have to raise money to pay for. Good work also attracts good press, which is better advertising than you can buy at any price. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 08:33:34 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Sage advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ned Johnston > "Remember, a wet bird never flies at night." And don't forget that "Its a long cow that has no tail." LTM, --Ned Johnston #2314 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 08:42:04 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: No Forum Monday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric On Monday, Tom King and I will be meeting with the coral reef experts at NOAA to examine the satellite imagery acquired for TIGHAR by Space Imaging on April 16. I'll have a report for you Tuesday and we should be able to start getting prints out to contributors very soon after that. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:53:28 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Jewel of the sea MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric Tom King and I had a very pleasant and informative morning at NOAA headquarters yesterday and I'm pleased to report that Space Imaging and the Lockheed/Martin IKONOS 2 satellite have delivered some really spectacular imagery our favorite atoll. Research and practical use aspects aside, Niku reveals itself as a green and turquoise jewel framed in a thin white line of surf and set in a blue/black sea. Absolutely stunning. The bird looked down from 700 km above the Earth (that's 438 miles folks) at an angle of 79 degrees at about 11 o'clock Niku time on the morning of April 16th and found the island to be about 10 meters from where the U.S. Navy said it was in 1943. The steep look-down angle means that we have zero sun-glint off the water and an as-good-as-it-gets view of the reef, land areas, and lagoon. We have a few little wisps of cloud over the lagoon and their shadows provide just enough depth to create a nice three-dimensional effect. One little cloud (Murphy's Cloud), of course, has to be parked right over a part of the lagoon that we'd like to see but the 1985 aerial photos we got from the Kiribati Archive cover that spot with better resolution anyway. From a research standpoint, we've only just begun to explore what we can learn from this imagery. We already know that, not surprisingly, there won't be much new information from the deep water surrounding the island. Even though we have good water penetration, perhaps down to 100 feet in the blue-green band of the multispectral imagery, the reef slope drops away so steeply that you can't see its surface. (Imagine looking almost straight down on a southwestern U.S. "mesa".) Our view of the lagoon bottom, on the other hand, is limited only by the turbidity of the water and Murphy's Cloud. We have gorgeous imagery of the land areas both in color, with 4 meter resolution, and in black and white, with 1 meter resolution. This will be of priceless value in planning, coordinating, plotting, and evaluating archaeological work on the ground. We'll get a picture up on the website as soon as we clear the details with Space Imaging but, in the meantime, we're hoping to mail the color prints out to all contributors to the satellite fund on Thursday (May 10). A big TIGHAR thank you to everyone who helped make this possible. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:00:15 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Myth and legend MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom Byers I think the Japanese connection was amplified in the 1960's by Fred Goerning (?) "The Search for Amelia Earhart" As I recall it was a well written book, although the author selectively uses the facts at his disposal. Tom Byers *************************************************************************** From Ric Fred Goerner wrote well and told a fascinating first-person detective story. His 1966 book was the first and only Earhart best-seller until Jane Mendelsohn's 1996 novel "I Was Amelia Earhart" (of which the less said the better). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:20:22 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: neutron activation analysis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Lawrence Glazer This is a longshot possibility for finding the smoking gun. There is an analytical technique called neutron activation analysis. A sample of material is bombarded with neutrons in a chamber and this results in a recordable spectrum of all elements present in the material, and their proportionate quantities (i.e., parts per million). It is used to determine whether the subject sample was part of a known production run, by comparing the subject sample's spectrum with that of a known sample from the specified production run. It works because any metal that was liquified and then poured will contain small quantities of impurities - stuff that was not intended to be part of the material, but got in there anyway. Every batch is thus slightly different from every other batch. But every product fabricated from the same batch has exactly the same composition as all other products produced of that material from that batch. As I recall, past expeditions have found both metal and plexiglass (windhield?) pieces of shape and thickness consistent with known parts of AE's 10-E. I know neutron activation analysis works on metal; don't know if it works on plastics, but would be easy to find out. I wonder if records still exist which would be sufficient to trace any of the metal or plexiglass in AE's plane back to the creation of these materials - not their shaping into aircraft parts, but their actual creation. The reason it might be possible is that aircraft manufacturers' specs for such materials are quite high (because of the stresses such parts have to survive, and because of the consequences of a part's failure in flight, as you know), and I assume that this was true even in the 1930's. Thus, such records would have been created. If they WERE created, and if they can be FOUND, and - the biggest "if" of all - if these records can be used to trace PRESENTLY LOCATABLE parts made from the same batch(es), then neutron activation analysis might be able to give us a definitive answer. Lawrence M. Glazer **************************************************************************** From Ric We carefully considered neutron activation analysis back in 1996 when we were working with ALCOA trying to pin down the origin of the "24ST Alclad" in artifact 2-2-V-1 (the section of airplane skin). Ultimately, the problem we ran up against is that in those Depression days before the huge expansion of the aviation industry that started in 1939, manufacturter's (like Lockheed) bought their aluminum in small batches based upon orders in hand. - sometimes literally airplane by airplane. There's no way to get a sample to match against where we could be sure that it was from the same batch used to build c/n 1055 (Earhart's Electra). I don't know if neuton activation analysis would work on polymethyl methacrylate. It was manufactured by Rohm and Haas here in the states under the trade name "Plexiglas", in Britain as "Perspex, and later in the states by DuPont as "Lucite; but it's all the same stuff. It was very expensive and in the mid-1930s was used primarily in the manufacturer of a new technology - jukeboxes, with aviation a distant second. Because it was nonstructural, no close accounting was kept of production batches and who they went to. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:21:48 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Hitting the fund-raising drum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Charlie Sivert Hi, Ric, Whack the drum for $l00, and use my credit card number. If you do not have it on file, let me know. Charlie Sivert, 0269E **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Charlie. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:27:09 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Goodbye Carol Linn Dow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Carol Linn Dow Here are some replies for you. It's your option if you want to send them out. I'm getting too much mail here. Between the theater and Tighar I have to give first choice to theater. I'll watch your website for information but if I doubt if I will have time for more letters. Warren Lambing: I appreciate your comments about Wilson's book. Nice response. John Rayfield: UHF is not exclusively used by the military. Static on HF is normal. Good comments. Ross Devitt: I thought several of your comments were inappropriate. If you are flying in North Queensland "x" number of miles out on VHF what altitude were you were flying at? You don't think the FAA is a reliable source? I have news for you, the FAA can ground your airplane and declare it illegal. If you fly it thereafter you can go to jail and lose your license. I don't believe I said aviation frequencies used AM or FM broadcast stations. I only referred to them. However, an aeronautical ADF installed in an airplane can go to a commercial LF station and fly it in. Yes, if someone blocked or jammed Earhart's transmissions it would have to come from a pretty powerful source. So? There was static entered in the logs of the Itasca....sorry. You have never filed down the edge of a prop. Then you don't know that much about aviation. 70 hours flying time is not enough to qualify for discussions with a 500 hour pilot and above. 40 hours flying time is required just for a private license. You are barely over the limit. You sign your transmissions as the "Wombat." What is a "wombat?" I was under the impression "wombats" were some kind of a male witch. At one time I was a prayer counselor for the 700 club in Dallas. So I have heard that kind of talk before. Troy @Tighar: I appreciated your comments. Roger Kelly: I thought your comments on requesting background information were rude and inappropriate. Pete (Tighar # pending): oh my, you do have some theatrical ideas. Doug Brutlag #2335: some of the old clunkers I used to fly (from lack of funds) when I first started out in aviation had the old radios and dials. It's been too long ago. I can't quote the frequencies. All I can remember is the transmitter was crystal operated and the rest was dials with rows and rows of calibrations. Russ Mathews #0509CE: nice comments except the Marshall Islands were 650-700 miles from Howland not 1,000. I didn't mean to convey the thought that Earhart was trying to transmit all the way from the Marshalls. Just the opposite, her transmissions were probably blocked. I want to thank everyone else who answered Email. However, I am going to have to say good-bye for now and please pardon me and accept my apologies if I neglected to reply to an Email. I remember one party who was in the Navy who wrote about HF and static. I'm sorry I lost your Email address. Two thumbs up and best wishes, Carol Linn Dow **************************************************************************** From Ric We'll miss you Carol. (and all along I thought that a wombat was a small furry marsupial. This explains a lot.) Anyone wishing to reply further to Carol should do so privately - and theatrically. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:34:15 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Aggie Grey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Denise Malcolm Andrews #2409 says that Mitchener said it wasn't Aggie Grey who was the inspiration for Bloody Mary, but was someone else entirely. Well, I had dinner with Mitchener at Pacific Harbour, in 1978, when he was in Fiji for some writer's conference, and he told me he'd based Bloody Mary a TYPE of woman he'd come across in the Pacific; usually a part-European who set herself up to be an object of humour, but who was ripping the G.I.s off big-time ... but doing it with such good grace and with a great sense of fun, they didn't mind at all. He mentioned a list of names, but the two which stuck in my head were Aggie Grey and Matilda Emberson, both of whom I knew. The others I hadn't heard of. LTM (who couldn't let this one pass without comment) Denise P.S. BTW, those of you who've actually met Mitchener will understand when I say the only excuse for being the man he was during his declining years was Tourette's Syndrome. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:06:30 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: neutron activation analysis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dave Bush Ric: Does Lockheed's records show who they purchased the aluminum from? You then work backwards to the supplier (ALCOA) (whom I am sure did not make up aluminum by the individual batch for one airplane) and check their outgoing records to determine where other aluminum from that batch went, then trace the items manufactured from that aluminum. *************************************************************************** From Ric Lockheed bought aluminum directly from ALCOA. ALCOA would fill Lockheed's order from the aluminum thay had in stock. Metal from that same batch might also go to Douglas or Boeing or Martin, etc. We could probably work out what companies at what time got aluminum from the same batch but there would be no way to know what airplanes were made from that metal versus metal from previous batches. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:10:46 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Another new member! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From David Chase Hi Ric! You may recall my note about my daughter's Amelia Earhart history project last month. Well... she won her category - junior exhibits at the California State competition! To say I'm a proud father doesn't begin to describe the feeling! Anyway, I told her that I too would join TIGHAR if she won at state. So I just signed up at the $100 level! (I'm still trying to arrange my schedule for the Tahoe class and expedition in June, too) We leave for the National competition at the University of Maryland 6/9 = 6/14! Her exhibit is very dramatic - it's a round cylinder, 30" dia., 6 feet high - instead of the usual flat poster board. Everyone has seen it has been very touched by it. I'll send photos soon. I'll send a note when we get the viewing dates in case anyone is in the area and wants to drop by. Let me just say, after seeing many exhibits, posters, videos, and performances at the state competition, its very inspiring to see what the junior and senior high school students in this country are capable of. And let me say, you find little coverage of this very positive event in the mainstream media. I saw a 10 minute performance by a high school student on Teddy Roosevelt that was absolutely riveting. I felt like I had just watched 4 speeches by TR! Best regards, Dave Chase ************************************************************************** From Ric Congratulations to Vanessa and to her proud papa. I'm sure the whole forum will be pulling for her at the Nationals. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:45:19 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: pamperd celebrity or survivor? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dick Evans (Note from Ric: Dick is a veteran of the Coast Guard Loran station on Gardner.) Ric, You're right. It is the constant heat and moisture that had all of us treating rashes most of the time. Accordingly, we used up a nine month supply of alcohol in less than two months. Of course, part of the problem is that many of us were trying to treat our rashes from the inside out. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:09:57 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: What's in a name? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dick Evans Ric & Lawrence Glazer Regarding the name Norwich City. As I recall the name coiuld be read on the bow of the ship (1944) although it was not very plain. On one occassion several of us walked thru the hole torn in the port side of the hull and climbed up to the forepeak. From there we could see several places where the name was painted on equipment. For the next few months we threatened to climb back up and work our way to the bridge, which was in good shape. But like most things, this got lost in the scope-watching and similar exciting things we were doing. Don't know if this is any use to you or Lawrence, but there it is. Dick Evans **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Dick. This is really very interesting. You're correct, of course, about the hole on the port side and it would make sense that there would be features aboard that bore the ship's name. Whatever you saw as the bridge, however, must have been something else. Ph otos of the ship prior to the accident show a white-painted superstructure just forward of the funnel and a smaller structure further aft that are missing in Bevington's 1937 photos of the wreck. These seem to have been of wooden construction and were consumed in the fire that engulfed the vessel at the time of its stranding. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:11:36 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Imagine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dick Evans Ric, Studies of enforced isolation over a long period of time. Do I qualify? I remember one of your cameramen commenting that he was on Niku for 10 or 12 days on one of the first expeditions and "almost went nuts." He was amazed to find that we had been there for a year and a half. Yes. I went nuts. Dick Evans ************************************************************************* From Ric Then again, we were nuts before we arrived. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:15:16 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: For The New Member(s) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag Congratulations Vanessa.........Go Girl! Win State! Doug Brutlag #2335 ************************************************************************ From Ric She did that. Now she's going to the Nationals. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:22:45 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Worst Novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jim Pearson member no. ???? check is in the mail ! Ric, you seem to think that I Was Amelia Earhart is the worst book on our favorite subject. I dont think so. I nominate "Flying Blind a Novel of Amelia Earhart" (Max Collins) for that distinction. It is a hard boiled detective novel meets captured by the Japanese theory with AE as a bisexual love interest. Yep, its as horrible as it sounds! If you get a chance to read it-dont. **************************************************************************** From Ric If we're gonna have a Worst Earhart Book competiton we have our work cut out for us. Way back in 1999 TIGHAR stalwart Jim Tierney offered the following review of Flying Blind: Ric---Have just finished---"Flying Blind"-A Novel of Amelia Earhart by Max Allan Collins....... Quick review--Tawdry, turgid trash.............. First of all in his acknowledgements- he lists all the books by everybody and says he read them,yada,yada,yada........No mention of Tighar at all... Story is about a private detective-told in flashback who agrees to go back to Saipan to look for and interview people about AE in March of 1970 .... His story unfolds-starting with being hired by GPP in 1935 to act as bodyguard for AE on a lecture tour . They go off together in the car and he gradually falls in love with her. They wind up in Burbank-at Lockheed and in Paul Mantzs house-where he observes AE and another woman pilot getting it on together and later that same night-he and AE do it and start an affair that ends after some months and GPP fires him......... He comes back into her life again in 1937 just before she leaves on her 2nd trip. She goes off and disappears and he starts to check out the rumors about her .the plane and the Govt........ He drags in every speculation/rumor as part of the plot-- He talks about- the Navy personnel,the locked hangar, substitution of a new plane with the new special engines after the Hawaii crash. Ping pong balls in every available space, yada,yada,yada.........also the big secret cameras........ He does say she was not a remarkable pilot and frequently was over her head in situations and aircraft.......Oh-there is also some mention of AE being possibly pregnant with his child......AE doesnt trust FN because he drinks and has been forced to use him by GPP because he works cheap... She disappears and things are quiet...He hears the rumours abou tthe Japanese and Saipan,etc.....In Mid 1940 he is recruited by a Mr Miller of the CAA-whom he met in 1937-and James Forrestal-a govt. Us Navy employee - yes, that James Forrestal- He even works in Irene Bolamto go to Saipan and check out the stories and bring her back-because they know she is alive... He is taken to Saipan by Capt. Irving Johnson on the Yankee and put ashore alone in the garb/disguise of an Irish Priest with IRA connections... He gets to see her and tries to bring her out... He sees FN killed right in front of him in a jail by a Jap cop with a machete...He and AE try to escape that night and they almost make it to the Yankee but AE is shot while swimming-He is pulled aboard by the first mate who later turns out to be Sterling Hayden-the movie star.......... She drowns in the water or does she??????? In 1970 they find out that a woman was blindfolded and shot/executed and put in a small grave that they never really find-BUT they find the blindfold she wore...... He even works Mrs Irene Bolam into the story........ In Summary---Dreck -with a capital D Sorry to bore youwith this -but I had to tell somebody LTM Jim Tierney. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:32:00 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Carol Linn Dow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dick Pingrey Ric and the Forum, Isn't it interesting how 500 hours in a Beechcraft can make someone into a truely world expert in so many fields of knowledge. But then I guess I considered myself an expert when I reached the 500 hour mark. Now that I have a few more than 500 hours I realize I am just starting to learn. The real lesson for all of us, you can't teach someone who feels they have nothing left to learn. Carol has served us well as a nice diversion and reminds us how difficult it is to convey ideas where there is a diversity in backgrounds. Dick Pingrey 908C ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:16:46 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: For The New Member(s) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jerry Ellis For Vanessa and proud father; Super and good luck at nationals! jerry ellis, #2113 an old retired chemistry teacher ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:19:25 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: What's in a name? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dave Osgood For Dick Evans: The first thing that came to mind when I read your post about searching through the Norwich City in 1944, is Emily Sikuli's recollection of aircraft wreckage in the area just north of the ship. You stated that, "On one occassion several of us walked thru the hole torn in the port side of the hull and climbed up to the forepeak." This places your group in the vicinity of the rusty aircraft parts as recalled by Ms. Sikuli. Did anyone take a look at any of the debris surrounding the shipwreck? Dave Osgood ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:20:20 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Worst Novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Cam Warren Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I guess "ugly" is too. Agreed that "Flying Blind" is pretty trashy, but the author did a good bit of serious research, and many of his facts are right on. Like Donahue, Klaas and others, there is some wheat amidst the chaff. Nearly all the characters are real, with the exception of the protagonist, and behave (mostly) true-to-form. (I have no idea how accurate is the description of AE's sexual preferences, nor do I want to know, but such stuff sells books in large quantities). Incidentally, Sterling Hayden was a sailor, and quite possibly did work aboard the YANKEE for a spell. Cam Warren ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:33:08 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Sir Harry Luke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From Phil Tanner Last week I went up to Oxford, as they say, to study a file of correspondenc= e=20 in the Rhodes House Library between Sir Harry Luke, head of the Western=20 Pacific High Commission in Suva and thus the key official in the =E2=80=9Cbo= nes=20 saga=E2=80=9D, and Sir Harry Batterbee, high commissioner in Wellington. The= file=20 covers the period from 1939 to 1942, when Luke left Fiji, with copies or=20 originals of letters in both directions. I=E2=80=99m afraid it shed no light whatsoever on the affair of the bones or= anything=20 else to do with Gardner Island or Gerald Gallagher, but it was fascinating=20 nonetheless, and the names of a couple of officials who crop up on the Forum= =20 from time to time do appear.=20 A good deal of it is what one might term social correspondence =E2=80=93 arr= angements=20 for visitors in either direction, letters of introduction, thanks for=20 hospitality and so on. There is speculation about the course the war is=20 taking, and it=E2=80=99s quite moving to read of these quite senior figures= =E2=80=99 fears=20 for members of their own families who were far away at that time in=20 correspondence which one imagines they would never dream would be picked ove= r=20 by a member of the public 60 years on. There is one very revealing and pungent remark by Batterbee about a perceive= d=20 American desire to exploit British weakness in its colonies for the benefit=20 of its own air services, which might help explain why Luke would have been=20 particularly wary about raising an aviation-related issue with American=20 diplomats. 6 August 1940/Batterbee to Luke. Expresses concern at the state of the New=20 Zealand economy and the international situation. Asks about the possible=20 exchange of reports by Harry Maude and P.D Macdonald of the WPHC and one mad= e=20 by someone called Gibson for the New Zealand authorities. Batterbee writes: =E2=80=9CI must say I think the Americans are a most uncon= scionable=20 set of blackmailers when it is a matter of air services: they are now engage= d=20 in demanding from us all sorts of air facilities in the West Indies which at= =20 the present moment they judge, and no doubt rightly, that we shall not be=20 able to resist.=E2=80=9D He is =E2=80=9Cmost anxious=E2=80=9D to hear of a r= eport by a Burgess and a=20 Gatty (presumably Harold) and hopes they have found a suitable base for=20 PanAmerican in Fiji. In reply, Luke writes that if the Gibson report Batterbee referred to is tha= t=20 of the New Zealand Pacific aviation survey expedition of 38-39, =E2=80=9Cwe=20= have=20 it=E2=80=9D. He sends a letter of introduction shortly afterwards for P.D. M= acdonald=20 of the WPHC =E2=80=9Ccopies of whose excellent report on the Ellice and Toke= lau=20 Islands (US claims) have gone to you in another letter.=E2=80=9D Further lig= ht on=20 diplomatic tensions between the Brits and the Americans. Er, us and you. 19 Sep 40: Luke to Batterbee, attaching a report of Luke=E2=80=99s visit to=20= the New=20 Hebrides and New Caledonia aboard the Viti, a =E2=80=9Cfine sturdy ship=E2= =80=9D which=20 arrived in Suva from Hong Kong on 14th August. The party included Dr=20 Macpherson, =E2=80=9CActing Central Medical Authority=E2=80=9D. Left on 22/8= , Vila on 25/8,=20 New Caledonia 30/8 Luke seems not to have been in the best of health, with gout and arthritis=20 requiring spa treatment in Rotorua, and in his last letter refers quite=20 movingly to the Colonial Office quite understandably wanting a younger man i= n=20 the post, and hoping he has been able to do something to promote the=20 interests of a "Cinderella" region.=20 =E2=80=9CI have tried since I have been here =E2=80=93 and the High Com. sta= ff feel, I am=20 glad to think, not wholly in vain =E2=80=93 to give them that personal atten= tion they=20 deserve and need, but I have had four increasingly trying years and I think=20 the S/S [secretary of state =E2=80=93 in a British context, any minister, in= this=20 instance it must be the Colonial Secretary] is quite right to send for a=20 younger and fresher man=E2=80=9D. Luke also reveals that he recently learned= that all=20 the property he had left in store in Malta, including his library, had been=20 destroyed in a raid There are so many references from both men to Lady Batterbee's health that=20 one half expects it to be some sort of coded correspondence, until you=20 realize that they had encryption available anyway. I also saw Eric Bevington's original photo album, which includes a photo=20 taken on Gardner supposedly showing a coconut crab carrying a beer bottle=20 (the caption said so but I couldn't make out the detail).=20 LTM Phil Tanner 2276 **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Phil. This was a base that needed to be covered and, although there=20 were no great revelations, the correspondence does provide valuable context=20 that helps us understand the climate in which the bones incident happened. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:35:11 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: What's in a name? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Chris Kennedy Mr. Evans' account of accessing the upper decks of the Norwich City in 1944 by entering the vessel through the tear in the port side and then climbing up, raises all sorts of other interesting questions and possibilites, as well. But, first, one question I do have for him is what, exactly, he means by "climbing up"---could you still walk up ladders and gangplanks, or did you have to crawl up over a pile of collapsed wreckage? If it was relatively straightforward and easy to climb up, the upper decks would provide a ready shelter in what remained of the superstructure. Most importantly, however, the Norwich City has proven throughout her career at Gardner to be a magnet of attention for approaching ships from the sea (the type of rescue Ric has said Earhart would be expecting) and, coincidentally, the Lambrecht flyover of both vessel and island. A person on the forepeak would've been much more likely to have been spotted than one stuck back in the wilds of Nutiran. Something else to ponder is the fact that the upper decks of a steamer of this size sitting atop a reef provide an elevated platform to view the surrounding areas, both land and sea (rescue). Yet, it also means that wreckage scattered low on the reef (Emily's story of airplane wreckage), would much more easily be seen by people such as the New Zealanders and Mr. Evans. I wonder if Mr. Evans can recall the types of wreckage he saw lying around the Norwich City? We know there was scattered vessel wreckage, but what, if anything, does he remember seeing to the north? --Chris Kennedy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:00:37 EDT Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Worst Novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From John Raspanti I couldn't disagree more. FLYING BLIND is a fascinating read..exciting..hardboiled. Okay it was bit 'trashy' but it didn't bother me having read all of the previous 'Nate Heller novels'. Author Collins weaves a fascinating tale, and that's just what it is a 'tale', exploring a number of possibilities. It's interesting stuff, but not something for everybody in this group. You must be willing to just 'go with it', anyway the book is a novel..aka 'fiction', right.? ************************************************************************** From Ric Interes