========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:12:21 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Painting on ebay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody Ric , I agree completely.Every photo I have seen that shows her plane,(including the ones in Ross Game's file at the Nimitiz museum in Texas, Taken in Java I believe) it has S3 H1 1340's in it . Thanks for letting me know that the Brink photo is in front of her Vega.A personal chapter closed for me. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:14:57 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Gervais ID of B-24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody Ric, Joe knew it wasn't an Electra. He told me that when we had the conversation in 99. My comments were for the person looking for crashes around Howland , Baker and Niku. I don't believe for a second in the " Bolam" fairy tale.There are 2 Irene Bolams in the SS death index. Their birth and death dates match the obits in newspapers in their hometowns.Looked it all up on a bet some time ago. I won. Amelia didn't survive past Sept 1937.AES Society even has a memoriam to the first Bolam by the namesake Bolam in one of their newsletters that refutes that silly notion. *************************************************************************** From Ric Indeed, Electra wreckage on Baker would be quite remarkable given the presence of Dept. of Interior colonists on the island in July 1937. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:17:44 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Bones search MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody I was my experience in Hawaii that you must consider wind , water and protection for your crop when planting. Most planting takes place on the leeward side.Is this the case on Niku? I havent looked at a map recently. The "bush reserve" may have been left for nesting shorebirds.They are very important to the crops for insect control. **************************************************************************** From Ric Yes, virtually all of the coconut plantings on Niku were on the leeward side of the atoll, although only the ones on the west end near the village really thrived. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:20:07 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Colonists removed from Howland? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody Ric , Those are the dates that the articles appeared in NG - National Geographic.I have all of their issues on CD-Rom from 1888 to 1999.A $600 investment and well worth it. I know the Itasca is a ship.To corract the misinterpetation, the Itasca is listed as the ship that delivered the first colonists to those islands.Brink's book , although full of BS speculation, has a photocopy of the original letter from Secretary of State Cordell Hull to FDR dated Feb 19 1936. Its entire content is about the history of the Line Island's and their recent colonization up to that date. I seldom quote the written word in any of these book's except to point out the inconsistencies from book to book.Many of them do have within their convoluted pages, copies of original documents and photos that are a valuable resource. Woody ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:21:13 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Colonists removed from Howland? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody Ric, the japanese complaint statement came from John Toland's - The Rising Sun. I think Randy's statement is closer to the truth. Note that I didn't mention Carrington's allegations that they were Army guys on leave in 1935. That directly contradicts Hull's letter to FDR in Brink's book. If they are all to be believed, let's assume that they are Kam School Students in the Army on leave to sit on a rock in the middle of nowhere for FUN.( A little humor never hurts!) I prefer to take Hull's letter as fact. Woody ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:24:09 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Colonists removed from Howland? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody Ric, I stand corrected, somewhat. The Hull letter states that Hawaiians were dropped off on Howland, Baker and Jarvis by the Itasca between March 25th and April 1st of 1935 and had been occupied continuously since then. The letter is dated Feb 19,1936. My confusioncomes from the dates that the colonists were dropped off by the Taney in 1938 on Canton and Enderbury. March 6th for Enderbury and March 7th for Canton. There were two expeditions to those atolls,apparently. Either that or NG photographers were on the 1938 trip for reasons unknown or there were 2 eclipse expeditions. They may have just obtained photos from the military from the 1938 trip. At any rate I will send you copies of the hull letter and the NG articles along with the Meyers book. I agree with you on that point about conspiracy books. Tear out the photocopies of documents and the pictures, you now have all of the useful sections of the book. Throw the rest away! Woody ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:32:23 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Fiji Air Planes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Denise Ric, Can't say for certain what planes Fiji Air had during the early days, but from stories I've been told, for passenger services - which they took seriously - they used Sunderlands. But for mail runs they used whatever they laid their hands on for cheap. I believe the mail-run was the job of choice for all those barely sane cowboy-types - old WWI British/Allies air force veterans and from stories I've heard I think the planes were too. If this were the case, you'd probably know better than I do what kind of planes they were? Fokkers? I hope I don't need to tell you that it was these old cowboy-pilots who swore by their reef-landings. LTM (who loves a good mail run herself) Denise P.S. I seem to have picked up a virus which is tailing my e-mails. Please don't open any EXE file from me. **************************************************************************** From Ric Nothing was attached to the above forum submission. The Shorts Sunderland was, of course, a flying boat and any reef landing would be its last. It's also a WWII type so any use of Sunderlands (the commercial variant was called the "Solent") would be post-war. Fokker F-7 trimotors and various Junker types were common in New Guinea in the '30s and may have been used by Fiji Air during and even after the war. They were very rugged and very slow. Reef landings should have been a piece of cake. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:35:59 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Bones search MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King Ric says: Let's remember that it's our culture that has a television show called "Touched By An Angel." Yes, but as you well know, Ric, I Kiribati tradition is full of "anti" (ghosts), which can do bad things to people. There are traditions about powerful bones, that people try to grind up and throw in the sea, that come back to cause trouble. It's sort of interesting, too, that Robert Louis Stevenson has a short story, based on his time in what's now Kiribati, about the windward shore of an island as a frightening, spirit-filled place. I don't think it's at all implausible that Gallagher's death would have been interpreted as a result of what had been done with the bones, or that this would have influenced what people said and did thereafter (e.g., with subsequent bones discoveries). LTM (who has a healthy respect for spirits) Tom King **************************************************************************** From Ric No argument. I was just pointing out that "native" cultures have no lock on superstition. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:46:41 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Colonists removed from Howland? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson The army guys were on some sort of "leave", but amazingly enough, when taken back to Honolulu, they became full military personnel. Let's say the gov't at that time was involved in some shenanigans, but easily uncovered. Maybe that is the root cause of all the problems with Commerce and Interior. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:47:41 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Black as GP's rep. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan Caldwell Do we have that info documented? I've never seen anything connecting Putman and Black. I don't doubt it but I'm just used to documentation on things. Alan #2329 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:08:08 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Canton losses listing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Christian D Interesting list, Ric. I didn't realize there had been so much "action" there... I didn't noticed any airplane wreck left on the island, it has all been bulldozed under, except for the seaplane on the outside beach on the west end of the island; it looks like it landed short of the lagoon seap lane landing area. I didn't know enough to identify the type it is... As it is on a protected beach with little surf, it is VERY little corroded, green paint (primer?) still visible. As well as the nickname painted on the side: don't have my notes at hand, but it is something like "Big John". Is it one that is on your list? Someone in Funafuti had told me that it crashed during or soon after the war, with loss of life. About aluminum degrading in the tropics, it seems to me it is VERY hard to foretell: if constantly wet and dry, it won't last long, but if well above the high water mark, on a quiet shore, it survives incredibly well!!! While the DeSoto station-wagons hidden in the scrub are turning into rust piles... Christian D **************************************************************************** From Ric You're speaking of Canton. The wreck you saw may have been the PBY-5 that was beached on Aug. 13, 1943 after being shot up by a Japanese flying boat. We didn't see it while we were there in '98 (we were busy looking for the engine in the dump) but that would be an interesting wreck to survey. I agree with your assessment of the durability of aluminum in that environment. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:20:47 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Gervais ID of B-24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody Ric , The B-24 was lost ,I'm sure during WW2 when Baker was in use as a refueling stop for bombers. Sometime during the war it was abandoned in favor of Canton Island. I'm looking for those dates now.As for colonists on those islands at that time ,I grew up on Oahu and have contacted Bishop Museum and the Kam Schools to see if I can shed some light on the exact dates that there were people there.The logs of the Navy seaplane tender Avocet and the Coast Guard cutter Taney may be of help if anyone knows where to find them. Woody **************************************************************************** From Ric Woody, you're reinventing the wheel and you have some flat spots. Baker was never a refueling stop. It was used briefly as a forward airstrip during Operation Galvanic (the landings at Tarawa) late in 1943. There were some PV-1 Venturas there but no B-24s as far as I know. Randy Jacobson has researched the "colonization" of the American Equatorial Islands and it is thoroughly covered in the 8th edition of the Earhart Project Book. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:21:57 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Fiji Air Planes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody There is a site on the net that has a list of all planes that were registered to fly into New Guinea.Naw Guinea Airways had a few 10A's . When I'm on the net I'll find the site and post the URL. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:25:04 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Flying Tigers...etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Janet Whitney Weren't the "Flying Tigers" who flew P-40s in China before WW II also "volunteers" from the U.S. Army? Also those who ferried U.S. manufactured planes to Great Britain between 1939-1942? Janet Whitney **************************************************************************** From Ric I must be missing the relevance to the Earhart disappearance in all this. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:32:46 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Francis Furman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Dawson Hi, Ric: In the book 'Raise Heaven and Earth' by William Harwood, a history of the Glenn Martin Aircraft company, he relates the story of Furman as the Martin representative in Java and assisting AE and Fred which I' believe I've seen in other Earhart books, but don't remember which. Quoting the book: Furman said Noonan worried the entire time he was at Bandoeng about time. Furman: "He kept four watches and he would walk around constantly checking those watches with chronometers to ensure accuracy". Four watches? Has anyone else made a similar claim? Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 **************************************************************************** From Ric We interviewed Furman very early in the project. Nice guy. He also told us about Fred being obsessed with the accuracy of his watches which he kept in his pocket, but as I recall it was two watches, not four. I should review the videotape. It was twelve years ago. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:34:32 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Colonists removed from Howland? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Everette This sounds very much like the scenario followed by the Air Force to set up clandestine TACAN sites in "neutral" Laos, for guiding aircraft to targets in North Vietnam, during the war in Southeast Asia... the guys who manned these sites were USAF noncoms, with their enlistments "put on hold" without loss of seniority or benefits while they became "employees" of Lockheed Aircraft. For a fascinating study of this (and EXCELLENT historical scholarship) read "One Day Too Long" by Timothy N. Castle. This is primarily a study of the loss of "Site 85" in Northern Laos in March 1968. The key word, is "deniability" (aka the way to lie without actually, technically lying... aka "spreading bull.") LTM (who would never sign a shady deal) and 73 Mike E. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:35:48 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Black as GP's rep. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson Documentation regarding GPP and Richard Black can be found in the TIGHAR CD of radio messages, mostly by message traffic from Black to Dept. of Interior HQ regarding his role, and whether it was appropriate. There's no doubt in my mind about it. It was no big deal, really: just insurance by GPP to make sure that AE was getting weather information, fuel at Howland, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:28:39 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: The Wreck Photo, revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Harry Poole Ric, In looking through previous issues of TIGHAR tracks, It seems to me that the issue of the Wreck photo was left hanging. Perhaps I missed something, but the question seemed to be: Was this photo from an Electa model E, was it Amelia's plane, and was it taken on Gardner/Nikumaroro. If I understand this, the analysis by Photek seemed to support that it was an Electra-E (based on the propeller measurements) but I haven't noticed a final conclusion to this photo. If I missed it, I'm sorry, but can you summarize how this photo now stands? LTM, Harry #2300 **************************************************************************** From Ric We still don't know for sure what kind of airplane it is or where or when the photo was taken, but we do know that a more or less intact airplane in the bushes is not consistent with the information (mostly anecdotal at this point) we have about a plane wreck at Gardner. My opinion is that if the wreck photo shows Earhart's airplane, we're looking on the island. I don't think we're looking on the wrong island. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:28:00 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Aerial photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan Caldwell Ric, I'm flying to Sydney on March 14th. If we pass anywhere near Niku I'll take a few pictures. I assume from 43,000' would still be ok if I hold my throw-away camera steady. My daughter is getting married on the 31st. If there is any significant research I might do while in Sydney I would be glad to do it. Janet always has great lists of stuff for us to do, maybe she has a suggestion. Alan #2329 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:44:07 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Fiji Air Planes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson Woody wrote: > There is a site on the net that has a list of all planes that were registered > to fly into New Guinea.Naw Guinea Airways had a few 10A's . When I'm on the net > I'll find the site and post the URL. Hi Ric, I don't know how complete it is, but I got my copy of the list at http://www.michie.net/cgi-bin/plnsrch.pl This was my source for the identification of the 10-A in the Purdue collection (photo XI.A.4.C - where AE and the technician are looking at the underside of the airplane - with part of the registration number visible). ltm jon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:47:49 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: The Wreck Photo, revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jon Watson Hi Ric, Don't forget the photos I copied to you a couple months ago - AE's Lockheed (in construction or repair) with the engine off very clearly shows an opening in the firewall where the exhaust stack goes through, and the wreck photo just as clearly shows that the firewall of that airplane is solid, with no opening. I can re-send those pic's to you if you like. ltm jon **************************************************************************** From Ric No, I have those. Thanks. I could never tell for sure whether the firewall of the plane in the wreck photo had sustained damage that coud account for that discrepancy. In any event, I don't think the photo is worth revisiting. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:51:06 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: The Wreck Photo, revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Rick Seapin Hello Ric/Forum: I may be mistaken, but I thought TIGHAR proved this photo to be the wreckage of a Japanese aircraft. I also believe the photo was given to Bevington sp? by an unknown sailor and Bevington is not talking to anyone. **************************************************************************** From Ric Ah, the "folk process" at work. Wrong on all counts. The whole Wreck Photo business is covered in way too much detail in several research bulletins on the TIGHAR website. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:37:28 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: The Voyage of the Viti MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric Tom King and I have been trying to sort out the November/December 1941 voyage of His Majesty's Fijian Ship VITI and have turned up a real mystery for the forum to chew on. First, a little background. The High Commissioner of the Western Pacific High Commission during the entire bones-found-on-Gardner episode was Sir Harry Luke. Our primary source of information about his attitude and actions relating to that subject come from his correspondence and notes in the official WPHC file which Kenton Spading and I reviewed in England a few years ago. Another source of information about this time period, although it doesn't mention the bones, is Sir Harry's later book "From a South Seas Diary 1938-1942". In trying to track what may have become of the bones following Gallagher's death in September 1941, we've been particularly interested in Sir Harry's visit to the Phoenix Islands in November/December of that year. Gallagher had been the driving force behind the Phoenix Island Settlement Scheme since Maude's departure in 1939. With his death the entire project was suddenly without a leader and the High Commissioner's visit was in the nature of an inspection and evaluation to see what might be done next. Accompanying him aboard His Majesty's Fijian Ship VITI were his aide de camp Ian "Mungo" Thompson; Dr. Macpherson, who had been present at Gallagher's death; and an Ellice Islander clerk from the WPHC offices in Fiji by the name of Foua Tofiga who would serve as interpreter. Today Mr. Tofiga lives in Fiji and has been an invaluable source of help and information to TIGHAR in documenting the events of 1940/41. Tom King has also corresponded with Mungo Thompson, now living in Scotland. From the "messing records" of HMFS VITI, which we copied in England, and from notes kept by Mr. Tofiga at the time, we have been able to reconstruct the voyage of the VITI as follows: Midnight, November 19, 1941 - ship departs Suva, Fiji Afternoon, November 25 - brief call at Gardner Island. Aram Tamia (Gallagher's former houseboy and assistant), Bauro Tikana (Gallagher's former clerk and interpreter), and Esera (?) came aboard briefly and met with Sir Harry. 11:00 a.m., November 26 - ship arrives at Canton Island. In his book, Sir Harry says that "the north-bound Clipper arrived from Suva just after we got in." He's referring to the Pan American Airways flying boat that serviced Canton but - and this is where the mystery begins - the information we have indicates that PAA did not service Suva at that time. A north-bound Clipper may have arrived on the 26th but it should have come from Auckland, New Zealand via Noumea - not Fiji. November 27 - Normally, the passengers may have stayed overnight at the PAA hotel on the island and the Clipper would continue it's journey to Hawaii the next day, but Sir Harry says that on the 27th he "Spent the forenoon replying to telegrams received here and preparing letters for the Clipper mail leaving tomorrow." It seems odd that the plane would remain at Canton that long. November 28 - VITI remained at Canton. November 29 - VITI sails for Gardner at 4:30 p.m. The messing records indicate that "Johnny, the handyman at Canton" came aboard for transport to Gardner. 11:00 a.m., November 30 - VITI arrives Gardner and the official party goes ashore. Mr. Tofiga's notes indicate that he saw Temou (the island carpenter) and his wife (Emily's parents); "Kuata" (is this Island Magistrate Teng Koata?); Esera (?); and Aram Tamia. Two nurses, "Maria" and "Sengalo" (Emily) joined the ship for transport to Suva for training. Also boarding at Gardner, according to the messing records, were the wireless operator Fasamata and his wife (Otiria O'Brian whom we interviewed in Fiji in 1999) for transport to Hull Island. Debarking at Gardner to take charge of the island hospital was Native Medical Practitioner Vaaiga who had come from Fiji. At 9:00 p.m. the ship left Gardner for Hull. 1:00 p.m. December 1 - VITI arrives Hull Island where Fasamata and Otiria debark. The Acting Administrative Officer and Wireless Operator at Hull, a man named Cookson, comes aboard bound for Suva and "badly needed" leave. Apparently Fasamata will take over as wireless operator and, according to Sir Harry's book, so "that the Settlement may not be without a European officer, McGowan, the acting Second Officer aboard the VITI ... has sportingly volunteered to stay." (Stout fellow McGowan - what?) At 4:00 p.m. the ship is underway again enroute to Sydney Island. 9:00 p.m. December 2 - VITI arrives at Sydney Island. Midnight, December 3 - the ship departs Sydney. According to the messing record, Johnny-the-handyman's wife and child come aboard for transport to join Johnny on Gardner. Sir Harry describes this incident in his book but erroneously has the woman and infant joining the husband on Canton. December 4 - In the morning the ship pays a brief call at uninhabited Phoenix Island. In the afternoon it stops at Enderbury where Sir Harry entertains the four U.S. Department of Interior colonists aboard VITI with much appr eciated tea and cake. Their names are D. N. Hartnell, James Riley, Joe Kepoo, and James Bruhn. The ship sails for Canton that evening. December 5 - VITI arrives back at Canton in the morning where the Clipper, according to Sir Harry's book, "had come in." He and Mungo, he says, "are returning by the Clipper early tomorrow morning" and so are sleeping at the PAA hotel that night. "The Clipper is exceptionally full and several passengers have to sleep in the passages of the hotel." December 6 - Sir Harry's book says, "We took off at 6 a.m. and landed at Suva at 3 pm, after a comfortable journey, during most of which we flew at 11,000 feet. ...The only land we saw before approaching the Fiji Group was Futuna; and as we neared Suva I asked the Captain to circle over our leper island, Makongai, which I thought would interest the passengers and knew would delight the patients. ... The next day (Western Time) came the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor...". However, Sir Harry's account seems to be at odds with the history of PAA's service - as we'll see shortly. According to Tofiga's notes, VITI departed Canton at the same hour Sir Harry says the Clipper took off for Suva and arrived at Hull around 4:30 p.m., remaining only an hour before continuing on to Gardner. December 7 - VITI calls at Gardner enroute back to Fiji just long enough to drop off Johnny's family and 18 tins of condensed milk (at the direction of Dr. Macpherson). Tofiga's notes indicate they arrived at 8:00 a.m. and departed at 9:00 a.m. It is his recollection that he learned of the Pearl Harbor attack while at Gardner. If so, the word must have gotten out very quickly because, allowing for the one hour time difference, the last wave of Japanese planes had just left Pearl when the VITI left Gardner. Our best guess is that the ship's radio picked up a news flash from KGMB or one of the other commercial stations in Honolulu. Afternoon, December 11 - VITI arrives back in Suva, Fiji. Now - here's the mystery. The following are excerpts from an article "Pan American Airways and New Zealand 1937-1959" by Brian Lockstone appearing in the June 2000 issue of the Journal of the Aviation Historical Society of New Zealand: (By January 1938) Pan American had already concluded that, until longer-range aircraft were available, the New Zealand service would be minimal, but the loss of Musik and his aircraft (the "Samoan Clipper" crash of January 10, 1938) forced postponement until 1940 when the enormous Boeing 314 entered service. ... The U.S. Civil Aeronautics Board had awarded traffic rights to Pan American on 12 June 1940, and the route was amended to San Francisco-Honolulu-Canton Island-Noumea-Auckland. (Previously it had been San Francisco-Honolulu-Kingman Reef-Pago Pago-Auckland.) ... The route also bypassed the British Colony of Fiji where entry had been denied as the UK Government had not wanted to grant traffic rights to Pan American while its own carrier, Imperial/British Overseas Airways Corporation, lacked the resources to fly the route. ... The early hours of 7 December 1941 caught Boeing 314 NC18611 "Anzac Clipper" inbound to Honolulu, and it was diverted to Hilo. Further south, Captain Robert Ford was in command of NC18602 (named "Pacific Clipper" by the US press although contemporary photographs indicate that no name other than "Clipper" was painted on the aircraft) was inbound to Auckland from Noumea. On reaching Auckland he sought advice from the US Consul, and his company, and was directed to return to the US as best he could. He departed Auckland on December 15 ..." If the British had not relented in allowing PAA to service Fiji, and if the route in late 1941 was still San Francisco-Honolulu-Canton Island-Noumea-Auckland, how could Sir Harry take the Clipper to Suva? The north-bound flight arriving on November 26th could be Captain Ford's airplane enroute to Hawaii. He takes off from Canton on the 27th and flys to Honolulu. A few days later he comes back through, reaching Canton on December 5th, the same day Viti arrives back there, and Sir Harry could be on the plane when it heads south on the 6th, but was it going to Suva or Noumea - or both? Suva is pretty much on the way from Canton to Noumea, so it would be easy to make a stop if a landing was allowed, but here's the problem. Sir Harry says they landed at Suva at 3:00 p.m. The distance from Suva to Noumea is about 700 nautical miles. Anyway you figure it, the landing at Noumea has to be in the dark. The article has the plane enroute from Noumea to Auckland on the morning of the 7th so they can't very well have overnighted in Fiji. So we have three questions: Had the British government extended landing rights in Fiji to PAA by December 1941? Had the Honolulu to Auckland route been amended to include Suva? Did PAA make night landings with the 314s? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:39:10 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Can't find Niku on this Earth Shot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Warren Lambing Ric. Okay this is off topic, but I am willing to bet you can't find Niku. on the NASA Photo, but it is really worth a look. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg Regards. Warren Lambing ****************************************************************************Fr om Ric Great photo. Next time we won't turn off the lights before we leave. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:30:42 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: The Voyage of the Viti MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From Randy Jacobson There's a fourth possibility, but slim. Suppose the British had their own clippers. We do know that Canton was under a condominium between the US and British, and each could use the facilities for seaplanes and later, airplanes. I have not run across a reference or source, though, for British/NZ/Australian seaplanes in that area of the world per se. You also can't always trust contemporaneous documents for veracity, especially journals. Sometimes people's memories are faulty after a few short hours or days. When I maintained a journal, sometimes I didn't write daily and had to catch up a bit. **************************************************************************** From Ric "Clipper" was an exclusive Pan Am term and the Brits didn't have an airplane= =20 that would do the job. That's why they coudn't compete with PAA. ****************************************************************************= =20 From Janet Whitney I remember reading an article about the Pan Am Clippers that were in the=20 Eastern Pacific just after Pearl Harbor and were ordered to fly back to the=20 U.S. as quickly and expeditiously as possible. How many Pan Am Clippers were= =20 in service on December 7, 1941? Janet Whitney =20 **************************************************************************** From Ric I'm not sure how many flyng boats Pan Am owned at that time, but there was=20 only one - NC18602, Captain Ford's airplane - that was in the South Pacific=20 on December 7th. Ford was ordered to get the airplane home safely as soon=20 as possible by any means necessary. The Pacific seemed too dangerous so he=20 went the other way and ended up flying around the world to get back to the=20 U.S. **************************************************************************** From John Pratt The rest of the story? Dec 7, 1941 The Pacific Clipper flew an =E2=80=98unplanned=E2=80=99 trip aro= und the world. It flew 31,500 miles in 209 hours and made 18 stops through 12 different nations. This was the longest continuous flight by a commercial plane and was the first circumnavagation following a route near the equator, crossing it four times. http://www.panamair.org/earlydays.htm (Yes, I expect that logbook is preserved somewhere.) Also, of possible value: The Pan American Airways (and after 1950, Pan American World Airways) corporate records (from founding in 1927 through its closing in 1991)are maintained at: Otto G. Richter Library, University of Miami, Coral Gables, Florida URL: http://www.library.miami.edu/archives/panam/pan.html Among other things, the webpage advertises: "The records also include extensive quantities of logbooks for important flights, including those of the "American Clipper," the "China Clipper" and the "Hawaiian Clipper." Logbooks typically list technical flight information, performance measures for the aircraft, passenger and crew data, and personal comments of the pilot and staff. Manuals and technical for the maintenance and care of aircraft, hangers, equipment and terminals provide a detailed record of internal policies and procedures. Additional technical reports document a wide range of topics, including test results on engines and aircraft, in addition to examination for employees." e-mail address is "archive@library.miami.edu" but looking for a specific logbook might be best done in person. If there is a TIGHAR researcher in the area the Richter Library might be worth a visit. LTM John Pratt 2373 ****************************************************************************= Fr om Ric Randy Jacobson has done some work at the Richter Library and we have a=20 general catalog of what is there. **************************************************************************** From Peter Vincent Ric: A quick extract from Sir Ian THOMSON's book "Fiji in the Forties and Fifties= "=20 [Thomson Pacific, New Zealand 1994, ISBN 0 473 02740 2] p.112: =20 "On most of Fiji's islands the horizon is usually the sea, and it was only=20 over this watery line that entry by boat to the islands of Fiji was obtained= =20 until the advent of a seaplane Clipper Service in 1941. The route of the=20 Clipper Service from the United States to Australia was pioneered by Pan=20 American Airways, with Harold Gatty appointed the airline's representative i= n=20 the South Pacific ... The four-engined seaplanes used on the trans-Pacific=20 service touched down for refuelling in Hawaii, Canton Island and Laucala Bay= =20 in Suva, en route between America and Australia. The service had just begun when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, Hawaii,= =20 in December 1941. I had the good fortune to be a passenger aboard the last=20 southbound Clipper Service flight, one day before the attack on Pearl=20 Harbour. I had been accompanying the High Commissioner for the Western=20 Pacific, Sir Harry Luke, on a sea tour of the Line Islands. We boarded the=20 seaplane at Canton Island in mid-Pacific, as Sir Harry had decided to return= =20 to Suva quickly because of reports of Japanese naval movements in the=20 Pacific". Slightly off-topic, and one for the Make-as-you-Will basket; Ric, as you wil= l=20 be aware, Sir Harry Luke was a fluent French speaker and instrumental in=20 persuading the French Resident Commissioner in the New Hebrides [now Vanuatu= ]=20 to denounce the Vichy Government and support de Gaulle's Free French=20 Movement. In fact, the New Hebrides was the first of France's overseas=20 territories to support de Gaulle with New Caledonia soon following suit. Si= r=20 Harry is recognised - often not fully - as having had a vital role in New=20 Caldonia's decision. Something which, possibly, could not be affected by =20 telegram. An historical perspective is in the book "The Cross of Lorraine i= n=20 the South Pacific" - fascinating stuff! If the French territories in the=20 SW-Pacific had remained loyal to the Vichy Government, the US would not have= =20 been able to use New Caledonia to build-up before and after the Battle of th= e=20 Coral Sea, and the landings of Guadacanal in the Solomons.=20 Would Sir Ian aka Mungo T be willing to flesh more detail on the flight? =20 This being to identify, if not fully covered by Tom King contacts with Ian=20 Thomson, what if any prior consignments ex Suva Sir Harry may have prepared=20 for delivery to Gardner. Ian Thomson, as Sir Harry's aide-de-camp, was 21 a= t=20 this time and such arrangements would typically be tasked to him.=20 Also - re "Kuata" [possibly Teng Koata]. 30 November, I have him banished=20 back to northern Kiribati at this time. Minor point, but were his movements= =20 mentioned in your 1999 interview with Otiria O'Brian? LTM Peter Vincent **************************************************************************** From Ric Fascinating. I wasn't aware that Mungo had written a book. Tom King has=20 corresponded with him and he has been helpful in suggesting people whom we=20 might talk to who might know something about the bones, but so far they've=20 all turned out to be dead now. Koata's possible presence on Gardner in November of '41 is very interesting=20 and possibly significant. The last we knew of him was that he had gone to=20 Tarawa, possibly for medical treatment, (do you have information indicating=20 banishment?) in September of 1940. We have no record of him returning to th= e=20 island and he is listed in later records as having resigned his position as=20 Island Magistrate in 1941. If Koata did, in fact, return to Gardner in, say= ,=20 the spring of 1941, that would put him there during Gallagher's absence in=20 the summer of '41 and open the possibility that it was during that time=20 period when some of the events described by Emily - i.e. discovery of=20 airplane wreckage on the reef and bones on the shore, and the quarantine of=20 the Nutiran shoreline by "the Onotoa man" (Koata was from Onotoa). This=20 could explain why Gallagher never reported any of these incidents. He died=20 with three days of his return in late September. **************************************************************************** From Christian D. Hi Ric! My reference is the book by Jon Krupnick: "Pan American Pacific Pioneers".=20 Page 211 is the last flight to New Zealand -which ended up going round the=20 world. It did go to Suva on Dec 5/6, and on to Noumea on the 7th. Captains=20 Ford and Mack. On Nov 26, northbound, it had been the same plane, on only the second flight= =20 which stopped in Suva, Cpt Lodesson. Page 209. The very first flight to stop at Suva, page 206, had started on Nov 5th 1941= . Many other pages have details and pictures of letter postmarks. Now for a question I've had for a while: the Viti seems quite comfortable=20 visiting Canton... When was the big ship channel dug to give access to the=20 Canton lagoon? Seems to me to have been too big an endeavor to have been=20 done before the War?!? Cheers. Christian D **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks. The picture is coming together. I don't know when the channel was dug at Canton but December of '41 does see= m=20 a bit early. **************************************************************************** From Denise Ric asks "Had the British government extended landing rights in Fiji to PAA by December 1941?" I don't know the answer to this, but there's a niggle at the back of my mind that this could be the wrong question you're asking. You see, flying boats/Clippers landed at Laucala Bay, on the opposite side of the pennisula from Suva Harbour. They did so definitely during the 50s (I have very early memories of seeing them come in, which would have been in the late 50s.) (Also, this is how my father arrived in Suva in the early 50s) and I have seen photos of them landing at that site during the 40s. But here's what makes this fact important. During the build-up to WWII this area of Laucala Bay was given over to the New Zealand Air Force to be the base for their Pacific Operations. The area remained in Kiwi hands until it was given back to Fiji in the late 60s to form the basis of The University of The South Pacific. (The area now known as The Lower Campus is the old sea plane hanger - which you'd know since you've been to USP - if the old hanger is still standing, that is! But you'd definitely have seen the old sea wall that made for the calm area of sea where the planes landed) Look, I don't know anything about how an army base/air force base/navy base in a foreign country is constituted in relation to the government of that self-same foreign country ... but since this site was in Kiwi hands and since this is where the sea planes landed from at least the 40s, there's a chance that who landed there was a Kiwi decision. If that were indeed the case, I'm guessing that the British Government wouldn't have been allowed to have any say in who was allowed to land there ... which makes your question redundant. Hope this helps. LTM (who loves a good flying boat) Denise **************************************************************************** From Ric It would be interesting to know how the permission to land at Suva came=20 about. Sir Harry had a reputation for being somewhat biased against the=20 Yanks. *************************************************************************** From Jim Tierney Ric--Answering your three questions on the PanAm Clipper schedule...... ONE-Yes-in Oct/Nov 1941--Suva added as overnight stop between Canton/Noumea= -- One reason was to break up the long distance between Canton/Noumea and allow= =20 the Clipper to carry more payload to Auckland.... TWO--Yes--1st flight to Suva/fiji in Nov 41. Outbound-Canton/Suva/Noumea o= n=20 Nov8/9/10....Inbound-Noumea/Suva/Canton--Nov 13/14/15. Dateline crossing was involved -just east of Suva. 2nd Flight--Under command of Capt Marius Lodeesen--outbound=20 Canton/Suva/Noumea--Nov20/21/22 Inbound-Noumea/Suva/Canton--Nov 26/27/28... Last flight-before Dec 7th-was Captain Ford in Pacific Clipper--Outbound fro= m=20 SFO on Dec1--Canton/Suva/Noumea---Dec5/6/7--Into Auckland Dec 8th...-Then=20 waited=20 for orders and continued west around the world arriving LaGuardia NYMT on Ja= n=20 6th. First two legs were Auclland/Noumea-Dec 15 to evacuate personnel and then=20 Noumea/Gladstone,Australia-Dec 16 then west....... Three--Night landings were not the normal operations but they could be made=20 under the proper conditions and with some surface lighting....They were the=20 exception and not the norm--until the war....... References are --"The Long Way Home"-Ed Dover--about Fords Trip and Pan Am Pacific Pioneers- The rest of the story--by Jon Krupnick-- Revised 20= 00 edition... Hope this helps--There undoubtedly be others with their inputs....... Any questions--contact me...... LTM-who is lurking out here with me in my reference library Jim Tierney **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks to everyone. As ever, the Earhart Forum knows all, tells all. **************************************************************************** Ric----Further on the Clippers/Luke/Suva questions...... 1-Captain John Tilton made the SFO/Auckland/SFO trip from Nov 5-17.. 2--Captain Marius Lodeesen made the SFO/Auckland/SFO trip from Nov 17-30. 3-Captain Robert Ford made the last flight before the war --SFO/Auckland the= n=20 around the world tn NYMAT arriving Jan 6th.....Ford carried Sir Harry Luke=20 out of Honolulu on Dec 4th to Canton and on Dec 5th to Suva.......Luke had=20 been in Honolulu for conferences on many things including preparations/plan= s=20 for war, etc... Luke and Ford had conversations on both legs... On the way in to Suva-Luke=20 requested and Ford gave him a brief aerial tour of his Fijian domain.... Luke got off at Suva.. Luke stayed with his British officials on Canton according to Dovers =20 book..... Luke had to get to Honolulu by some means and he obviously traveled on the=20 Lodeesen flight from Canton/Honolulu......Krupnicks book lists that flight=20 taking place on the 27th Nov. Maybe the IDL time /date changes confused everybody........ One thing is certain---There were Clipper flights from =20 Noumea/Suva/Canton/Honolulu and return........ Hope this helps.... Jim Tierney **************************************************************************** From Ric Aaaargh! We were doing great right up until Sir Harry leaves Hawaii on=20 December 4th. That is totally at odds with Sir Harry's book/diary, Mungo=20 Thomson's book, and Tofiga's recollections and notes. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:41:46 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Old Pilot's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Denise Thinking about Wombat's remark of not wanting to land a plane on a reef, and realising his reef experience no doubt consists of Australia's wonderful and unsurpassed Great Barrier Reef, (Great reef, Wombat! But not one I'd want to land a plane on either!) I realised that we were talking at cross purposes and about different sorts of reefs. It made me wonder if maybe a piece of Pacific folklore - no doubt An Old Pilot's Tale - was not as widely known as I imagined. It goes like this: "1) An atoll with a lagoon usually was once an island with a volcano. 2) Any island that once had a volcano has at least one ancient lava flow. 3) Lava backs up and hardens in water forming something like a bench or a ledge along the former shoreline. 4) Coral grows around the ancient lava ledge forming a reef. 5) If the reef is exposed at low-tide coral doesn't grow over the ledge top. (Coral hating exposure to sunlight!) Ergo ... where Nature provides a lagoon, she usually also provides an emergency runway!" Nikumaroro has a lagoon. Thus, according to this piece of folk wisdom, it should also have a lava ledge-based reef? TIGHAR knows that reef well. Is it one of the types I'm talking about? Exposed at low tide? Black and shiny and flat and dead on the top, but flourishing coral around the sides? If so, then BINGO! Folk wisdom prevails! Mind you, since these ledges are millenium-old, and are usually cracked and fissured and holed and eroded, you'd have to be a pretty intrepid sort of pilot - or be in the midst of a pretty dire emergency - to use one. One wheel in a fissure and you've flipped your plane. You definitely wouldn't do it by choice Something else has just suggested itself to me. I don't know where I heard or read that A.E. consulted Pacific-based companies when planning her trip ... but if you take it as a given and extrapolate out from the piece of folklore above, you come up with a very plausible scenerio ... and one that has her ending up where she did: A.E. in discussion with a Pacific-based air company asks the most logical question ... the one definitely foremost in her mind ... AMELIA: What do I do if I miss Howland? ... is given the best piece of advice based on what is believed in the Pacific. OLD PILOT: Find the nearest atoll with a lagoon and land on the reef! It makes sense. In fact, it makes more than sense. The lady was no fool. She'd have known there was a chance she'd miss Howland, so she definitely would have asked around for alternatives. And if she had, what I've speculated above is probably very, very likely. Hey, this would also could explain why she overflew McKean. I have no idea what McKean looks like, but if a scenerio as above took place, if it doesn't have a lagoon, she would have kept going. Nikumaroro, on the other hand, DOES have a lagoon. Ergo ... this is the island and the reef chosen! LTM (who loves it when her wilder ideas fit with the known facts) Denise **************************************************************************** From Ric McKean is technically a "makatea" rather than an atoll. Its lagoon is merely a depression in the middle of the island full of bird droppings. Charming place. It's surrounding reef is very rugged. Atolls are, indeed, former volcanoes but there are no exposed lava flows. All of the rock is waaaay down below and everything on the surface is coral. It i, however, the case that portions of the surrounding reef flat can be quite smooth and dry at low tide. There are large areas on Niku's reef flat where you literally could roller skate. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:45:33 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Alan's visit to Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody Ric, Ask Allen if he can go to the National Library of Austrailia and access the papers of John Russell Black. This man was on the Hagen- Sepik Tour of PNG and spent most of his military career there. His papers were donated to the NLA after his death in 1988.The papers span the years 1933 to 1988. He was in Lae for Amelias takeoff. The proscribed dates on his papers (This segment cannot be released until after a certain date that maybe Allen can ascertain for me) are from Jan 1937 to Sept1937. How curious. Woody **************************************************************************** From Ric I'll leave it up to Alan whether he wants to follow up on this. How do you know that Black was at Lae when Earhart was there? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:46:25 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: The Wreck Photo, revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Simon Ellwood From Simon #2120 John Watson wrote:- >construction or repair) with the engine off very clearly shows an opening in >firewall where the exhaust stack goes through, and the wreck photo just as >clearly shows that the firewall of that airplane is solid, with no opening. I >can re-send those pic's to you if you like. You can make out a sort of exhaust hole shape in the visible bulkhead. But then again, this sort of arrangement (exhaust collector ring exiting outboard - under the wing) was fairly common - by no means unique to the L10. There are other details on the wreck bulkhead which differ from the images taken of AE's L10E bulkhead during the repairs. Ric Seapin wrote:- > I may be mistaken, but I thought TIGHAR proved this photo to be the >wreckage of a Japanese aircraft. No. Ric examined blueprints which seemed to indicate it wasn't the speculated Tachikawa Ki-54. However I'm not sure I agreed that the blueprints were detailed structural drawings, but possibly just schematics - showing basic layouts but with no detail. If anyone wants to discuss this intriguing photo off forum, email me at:- Simon@cv990.demon.co.uk LTM Simon #2120 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:49:59 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: GPS Mapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag Ric; About a year(maybe 2) ago Uncle Sugar turned off SA-selective availability off in the GPS system that was biasing the signal to civil users. Another try might be in order for Niku IIII. If my understanding is correct, even an el cheapo unit will take you with 10 ft./3 meters accuracy. Doug Brutlag #2335 **************************************************************************** From Ric That is also my understanding. That kind of accuracy if useful for georeferencing the island and general navigation through the bush. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:52:26 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Aerial photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Herman De Wulf Throw away cameras are great but in this case I would suggest an ordinary camera with a zoom lens. Just in case... **************************************************************************** From Ric Got that Alan? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:55:52 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Died on Baker? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt Interesting - i've never seen this one before... Howland Island was never on Pan Am's expansion plans because it did not have a protected harbor. However, a runway was built there for Amelia Earhart's attempted flight around the world. Fred Noonan, a Pan Am navigator accompanied her on this trip. Noonan was experienced with navigation in the Pacific and finding this island should not have been a problem for him. The fact that they didn't make it to Howland makes for many fascinating stories, the most likely of which was that they found Baker Island, the sister island to Howland, ditched there and died while waiting to be rescued. Th' WOMBAT **************************************************************************** From Ric Odd that the Dept. of Interior colonists on Baker didn't notice them. Where did you dig up that gem? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:03:52 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Photos of Niku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee From Alan Caldwell: " . . . . if we pass anywhere near Niku I'll take a few pictures. I assume from 43,000' would still be ok if I hold my throw-away camera steady." Things will be okay, Alan. The photographic industry has made great strides in the past decade on the optical qualities of its throw-away camera. Just this year they have gotten to the point where they can discern features on a human face at ranges of up to 6-8 feet. So, from 43,000 feet Niku will present a splendid view. Plus, shooting through the two layers of 3/8-inch thick "windows" will add to your enjoyment. You will be amazed at the quality of the photos. Please share them with us when you return. :-) LTM, a former shutterbug Dennis O. McGee *************************************************************************** From Ric Never fear Dennis. Herman has already straightened him out on that. I think we may need to add a new warning to the Forum welcome message: Caution - Some Forum contributors are known to exhibit a dry, wry and subtle sense of humor which can take the careless unawares and cause acute embarrassment if taken seriously. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:18:36 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: The Voyage of the Viti MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King This really is a wonderful example of the Forum in action. Re. Sir Ian's book -- it's actually that which led us to him. I saw it at the Fiji Museum; the people there thought he'd died recently, but had an address for his son, and co-author, and publisher, in New Zealand. I wrote to him expressing regret at his father's passing and wondering if he'd left any papers. Shortly got an aerogramme from Sir Ian in Scotland, that began something like "Whilst some in Fiji may equate Scotland with the Hereafter, I have in fact not passed on...." He's been wonderfully helpful, putting us in touch with, for instance, Sir Harry's son, who has directed us to Sir Harry's papers at Oxford, which hopefully somebody can look through soon. He also launched us on the search for Peri-Johnson, in which several Forum members were fruitfully involved, though in the end we came up with no data. I can try to pursue some of this with him the next time I write, but that won't be until I get this &^%$#@%$ book off my back. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:24:55 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Niku Photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag Alan; When you go to down under on your trip, before you take your seat ask to go the cockpit and visit with the flight crew. Ask them if the flight plan will take you within photo range of Niku. If so get a time(GMT) and ask for a heads-up. We(american carriers) do not allow passengers in the front office during flight but several of the foreign carriers do and if you're very fortunate, the Skipper may even allow you to come up front for your shot. I can possibly help with some charts & Lat/Longs so they can figure out just how close you will get. Doug Brutlag #2335 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:39:37 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: PA Clippers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag In answer to Janet's question about how many Clippers did Pan Am have in service on December 7, 1941, I believe there were only 3: China Clipper, Hawaii Clipper, and Phillipine Clipper. All were Martin M-130's, the only 3 ever built. Boeing delivered the bigger & better B-314 not long after. None survive today. Too bad. Doug Brutlag #2335 **************************************************************************** From Ric According to the article I quoted from the Journal of the Aviation Historical Society of New Zealand, B-314 NC18606 "American Clipper" made a survey flight to New Zealand as early as August 1939 commanded by Captain John Tilton. A second survey flight by B-314 NC18601 "Honolulu Clipper" arrived in Auckland on November 23, 1939 commanded by Captain Wm. A. Cluthe (whose name may be familar to TIGHARs as the donor of the Noonan sextant to the National Musuem of Naval Aviation in Pensacola). There were several more of the big Boeings in service by December 1941 including NC18611 "Anzac Clipper" and NC18602 unofficially "Pacific Clipper" whihc made the post-Pearl 'round the world flight. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:49:09 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Vaguely worrying report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Phil Tanner On New Zealand radio today, quoting a Kiribati government newsletter. Christmas (Kiritimati) and Fanning islands are becoming an increasingly popular destination for US cruise liners, apparently in part because they are not too far from Honolulu. Two recent arrivals have generated major revenue. Christmas and Fanning reportedly have good diving, while obviously there's nothing on Niku to spend money on. However, a further 10 liners are to visit Kiribati this year under a deal signed recently between the government and a US-Norwegian shipping line. Not hard to imagine "the island where Amelia Earhart wound up" as a popular calling point eventually. LTM (who was sick as a dog on the Barrier Reef, let alone the mid-Pacific) Phil Tanner 2276 **************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Phil. We'll want to discuss this with the government when we're in Tarawa next month. Did they mention the name of the US-Norwegian shipping line? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:50:36 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: PA Clippers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Kerry Tiller The following website seems to have a pretty definitive history of PAAs flying boats. I don't know what their sources are (hence, how accurate the info), but it seems consistent with the data that has emerged from the FORUM. http://www.flyingclippers.com/main.html LTM Kerry Tiller #2350 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:52:33 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Clippers in 1941-42 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Janet Whitney But wasn't one of the Clippers shot up by Japanese fighters while moored at Wake Island shortly after Pearl Harbor? Janet Whitney ****************************************************************************Fr om Ric Now that you mention it, I remember that story. It think it was one of the Martin 130s. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:57:03 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Alan's visit to Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan Caldwell Ric and Woody, I would be happy to do that except the library is not in Sydney. It is in Canberra. It is also on the internet and I would imagine Woody might be able to email them and possibly get someone to check Black's papers for the relevant dates. I'm sure there would be a fee as the papers are in 20 boxes and it seems to me there should be some significant reason to do this. I'm not sure what that might be other than curiosity. I can't think what info Black might have that would move the ball forward. Perhaps I'm just missing the point. At any rate here is the library URL. http://www.nla.gov.au Here is what the NLA catologue of manuscripts has to say about the papers. Notes: Manuscript reference no. : NLA MS 8346. Available for reference (except for two large diaries from Series 3 which are restricted). Diaries also available on microfilm. Associated materials: maps of the Hagen-Sepik Patrol, 1938-1939 are held by National Library, Map section MAP RM 2955 and MAP G 8141.E27. Background: Cadet Patrol Officer in New Guinea (1933-39); served with ANGAU (1940-45); British Borneo Civil Affairs Unit (1945-46); Assistant Director of Planning & Research in New Guinea (1946-48). In 1948 Black resigned to pursue private business. Summary: The collection is organised in the following series: 1. Curriculum vitae & autobiographical notes. 2. General administration, 1933-37: includes 10 diaries & other papers relating to Black's career as Cadet Patrol Officer in New Guinea. 3. Hagen-Sepik Patrol, 1937-39: includes correspondence, maps, survey books, photographs & diaries. Diaries contain detailed & illustrated accounts of Black's role in the Hagen-Sepik Patrol. 4. War service - New Guinea, 1940-44: papers relating to Black's service with ANGAU during the war. 5. War service -Boneo, 1945: mostly roneoed notes issued to personnel. 6. Post-war Administration, 1946-47: papers relating to Black's position as Assistant Director Planning & Research in Port Moresby. 7. Post war business, 1948-51: Diaries, letter books, staff work books & other papers, relating to Black's various business interests in Port Moresby. 8. Post New Guinea, 1951-88: Black returned to South Australia in 1951, but he maintained an interest in New Guinea. Includes correspondence, cuttings & other papers. Indexes: Descriptive list available. References: Guide to collections of manuscripts relating to Australia ; E725. Alan #2329 **************************************************************************** From Ric Nothing about a proscribed portion of the record and nothing about Lae or Earhart. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:58:25 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Clippers in Pacific--Dec 7th, 1941 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jim Tierney Ric--Here is a list on PanAm Clippers in the Pacific Area/Division on Dec6/7/8 1941.. One S-42B--Hong Kong Clipper- bombed/burned/sank at moorings-Hong Kong Harbor-Dec 8th AM Two Martin M-130s--China Clipper-in SFO waiting maintenance-returned from Singapore on Dec 6th Philippine Clipper--enroute from Wake/Guam-Sunday AM-Returned to Wake-shot up by Japanese a/c-returned safely to Honolulu with passengers and evacuated PAA personnel Four Boeing B-314s--- Honolulu Clipper- in SFO-maintenance American Clipper --in SFO getting ready for next trip--cancelled Anzac Clipper--enroute to Honolulu-left SFO Dec6th-diverted to Hilo, Hawaii on Sun Dec7th landed approx 10AM--returned to SFO next day....Capt. Turner commanding. Pacific Clipper--Enroute Noumea/Auckland--arrived Auckland Dec 8th--then went around the world westward...Captain Ford in command That is all there were in the Pacific Division at that time.......All flight operations were suspended for a period of some days / weeks until everything was transferred to the US Navy and the actual danger situation was evaluated....... LTM Jim Tierney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:01:10 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: PA Clippers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Herman De Wulf Actually there were quite a few more Clippers, the tradition of naming PanAm flying boats "Clipper..." beginning with the introduction of the Sikorsky S-42 in 1934. Ten were delivered : NC-822M (c/n 4200X) was delivered on 5 June 1934 and baptized Brazilian Clipper. It was later rebaptized Columbian Clipper. c/n 4201 became NC-823M West Indies Clipper. It was later rebaptized Pan American Clipper and later still Hong Kong Clipper. C/n 4202 became NC-824M was never baptized and was w/o on 20/12/35. C/n 4203 was a S-42A and became NC-15373 Jamaica Clipper, c/n 4204 (S-42A) became NC-15374 Antilles Clipper, c/n 4205 (S-42A) became NC-15375 Brazilian Clipper, c/n 4206 S-42A) became NC-15376 Dominican Clipper. C/n 4207 was the first S-42B and became NC-16734 Pan American Clipper II. This a/c was later rebaptized Samoan Clipper. c/n 4208 (S-42B) became NC-16735 Bermuda Clipper, later rebaptized Alaska Clipper and later still Hong Kong Clipper II. c/n (S-42B) became NC-16736 Pan American Clipper III. It later became Bermuda Clipper. The names given to the S-42s reflected the areas in which individual aircraft operated. Pan American Clippers were used on survey work. From 9 October 1935 on three Martin M-130 were added. c/n 556 became NC-14714 Hawaii Clipper, c/n 557 became NC-14715 Philipine Clipper and c/n 558 became NC-14716 China Clipper. Twelve Boeing 314 were added to the fleet in 1939, with the first delivery on January 27 of c/n 1988, registered NC-18601. Only three would ever be names Clipper, the first aircraft not having a name at all. These Clippers were c/n 1990 which was registered NC-18603 and was originally named Yankee. It was later named Atlantic Clipper (this a/c crashed at Lisbon on February 22 1943). C/n 1992 was NC-18605 Dixie Clipper and c/n 2086 NC-18612 Pacific Clipper. This latter a/c is the one caught in New Zealand after Pearl Harbor which returned to the US via Africa and Brazil. It was renamed Captown Clipper. Source : P. St. John Turner, author of "Pictorial History of Pan American World Airways" Hope this helps. Herman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:02:00 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Pan Am Clippers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag I see I am a few years behind in PA's plane ancestory. I stand corrected. Doug Brutlag #2335 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:05:56 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Noonan as a Celebrity - 1935-1937? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Janet Whitney Given the overwhelming success of the "China Clipper" inaugural flight in late 1935 (Noonan was the navigator) and the similar success of the Warner Brothers film of the same name (starring Pat O'Brien and Humphrey Bogart) a year later, wasn't Fred Noonan a celebrity by the time AE took delivery of the Electra? **************************************************************************** From Ric Well, there's celebrity and there's celebrity. I'd surprised if the proverbial man-in-the-street would have recognized his name. By contrast, I think most people would have recognized Amelia's name. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:15:12 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Vaguely worrying report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Phil Tanner <> No: They just said "an agreement between the Kiribati government and the US-Norwegian cruise company". Could be "the US-Norwegian Cruise Company" with capitals, but I couldn't trace that. LTM, Phil 2276 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:22:01 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Fred's Bad Navigation Habits? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag I used to think Fred was an ace navigator but in the last few months I have begun to wonder. In a conversation with Mark Farmer(former PA China Clipper nav) he mentioned similar flaws which he also attributed to lack of effort & complacency. The clippers from what I understand mostly DR'd with updates from radio bearings from Alameda & Honolulu. PA 's DF equipment was reported to have a range of 1800 miles either side, 3600 miles total-more than sufficient for mainland-Hawaii. The accuracy of the bearings was reported better than 1.5 degrees even at 1000 miles away. These are quotes from PVH Weems. Celestial was the last redundancy to be implemented. One Fix an hour is sufficient at piston engine aircraft speeds but 1 or 2 more was better-as long as you don't take too many fixes that you are navigating fix-to-fix instead of trying to hold the best and shortest course to your destination. Sounds like Fred wasn't even doing that much. One must take more fixes just to have enough raw data to be able to figure winds aloft & corresponding course corrections if lets say you did not get the DF bearing. I believe the best navs did just that-bearings & cel fixes and compared the two to make sure their DR was correct. It's the same thing today, only we are using GPS & laser-ring gyro inertial platforms. The 767 & 757 I fly have 3 laser-ring gyro IRS's (inertial reference sytems) and are being retrofitted with dual GPS as a further nav accuracy enhancement. The IRS's all monitor each other and if one gets out of wack with the others or the GPS it gives you a red flag on the offender and you simply take it out of the loop andfly on the rest. A good navigator would do the same thing comparing his DR calculations using DF bearing data & celestial fixes enabling him to spot errors or neccesary course corrections. By the way, we still use plotting charts over the Atlantic & Pacific and plot fixes on the charts using the IRS nav data. Keeps one in the loop-good technique. The errors Fred is reported to have routinely tolerated really burst my bubble. 50-120 miles off course? What in the world was he doing all that time? I almost think the average pilot could do better on a straight DR with no updates if he has done the weather & planning carefully and just used good situational awareness. Remember that one? Lack of SA has killed more aviators & aviator wannabees than one can imagine. Bob Brandenburg alleges that Fred was dependant upon DF steers to get to his destinations-I'm inclined to agree. The case is compelling. Add to that the lack of familiarization & practical radio experience on the part of our duo fits in with the scenario of what may have taken place. Fred had his radio operators do that for him too. This seems to reek of some desperation on the part of both AE & FN: AE needed a navigator after quite literally(excuse my french) scaring the shit out of Harry Manning with the ground loop crash in Honolulu and Fred needing not only a job after leaving PA, but also a good dose of publicity in order to help kick-off a navigation school he was rumoured to do next when the world flight was over. So..............Fred gets sloppy, doesn't keep the DR accurately enough to find Howland, no DF steer available. Fred wakes up to the predicament and goes into survival mode and runs the fixes and calculations to go to the nearest island group for a landfall. Comments Ric? Doug Brutlag ****************************************************************************Fr om Ric You make an interesting case. I'm also surprised to learn that \Weems said that the PAA DF was accurate to 1.5 degrees up to 1,000 miles out and usable out to 1,800 miles. That throws a new light on the DF bearings they took on post-loss signals suspected of being from Earhart. Where did Weems say that? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:22:50 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Wake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From David Evans Katz You can find a description of the event at Wake Island in The Siege of Wake Island: Facing Fearful Odds by Gregory J.W. Urwin on page 253. (1997: University of Nebraska Press ISBN #0-8032-4555-6). It is an excellent history of the siege of Wake. David Evans Katz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:27:20 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: PA Clippers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Richard Are we writing a history of the "clippers" or are we trying to obtain information related to the "search for AE"? Richard *************************************************************************** From Ric You're right. This thread has wandered far off topic. We now return to our regularly scheduled forum. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:35:44 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: GPS Mapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt > From Ric > > That is also my understanding. That kind of accuracy if useful for > georeferencing the island and general navigation through the bush. Perhaps also useful for narrowing down sites around 2 miles from whatever small stands of coconuts were on the island when Gallagher arrived. Th' WOMBAT **************************************************************************** From Ric We hardly need GPS to do that, unless of course Gallagher had GPS. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:37:19 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Died on Baker? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt > From Ric > > Odd that the Dept. of Interior colonists on Baker didn't notice them. Where > did you dig up that gem? Just snooping around the web looking for info on Flying Boats in the pacific.. Th' WOMBAT *************************************************************************** From Ric See what happens when we get too far off topic? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:38:54 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Alan's visit to Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt > From Ric > > Nothing about a proscribed portion of the record and nothing about Lae or > Earhart. Mount Hagen is on the Highland Highway, an important truck route leading 380 miles (610 km) east to Lae (on the coast). The town, established as a patrol post in 1936,......... As Lae was the nearest town, it is just possible that he was in Lae at the time of Earhart's flight. Being a cadet officer I wonder if some of the photos mentioned may be of the aircraft taking off (with or without belly antenna). The popular camera at the time was a Kodak "Box Brownie 620". I still have one I've owned since the 60's (my first camera). It takes quite a large negative and the detail is surprising. If Canberra wasn't half way down the country I'd sneak down and have a look. Perhaps if I can scrape up some money I could take that holiday I've been promising myself (for years).. I'll think about it. But petrol here is around $4.00 / gallon, so it makes for a fairly expensinve trip. Th' WOMBAT ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:49:40 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re-Harry Lukes Flights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jim Tierney Ric--I can find only one book in my reference Library that mentions Harry Luke aboard the Clippers...That is -Ed Dovers Book-The Long Way Home....Published by Paladwr Press 1999. It is based on Dovers interviews with Captain Ford--in January 1992 and August 1993.....Personal and taped interviews along with other crew members from that flight........ Dover has reconstructed conversations from his notes----This would be to the best rememberances of Ford and others....He does put Luke aboard from Honolulu to.Canton to Suva with the aerial tour of Suva before landing at Lukes request...... I find no references to Luke being on the inbound flight-Suva/Canton/Honolulu which was flown by Marius Lodeesen......... His book says he was on it......... I would have to go with Lukes book/rememberances as taking precedence over anything else........ We do know there were flights----- Will we take his word as unimpeachable gospel or are there chances for errors........ This closes me out on Luke/Suva/etc.... unless you want me to do more........ LTM---always standing here lurking-ready with a reference book to correct the musings/ramblings of others..... Jim Tierney **************************************************************************** From Ric Lukes' book was based upon a diary and is supported by other contemporaneous documents. Ford's was relating 50 plus year old memories. No contest. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:56:27 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Vaguely worrying report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Thomas Ric, For what it is worth, the name of the cruise company is Norwegian Cruise Line, they can be found on http://www.ncl.com/ If you have a look at the itinerary for Hawaii you'll see Fanning isle, Kiribati. LTM Thomas #2380 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:57:57 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Noonan as a Celebrity - 1935-1937? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Dawson Fred may have been concerned about possible future notoriety since in an October, 1935 letter to an old friend in Louisiana, he admonished the friend "not to discuss their friendship for publication". This might sound like a George Putnam caveat, but this was prior to their 1937 connection. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 **************************************************************************** From Ric Interesting. More likley a Juan Trippe caveat. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:37:34 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Fred's Bad Navigation Habits? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt > The errors Fred is reported to have routinely tolerated really burst my > bubble. 50-120 miles off course? What in the world was he doing all that > time? Well, for one thing he wasn't flying the airplane. I seem to recall Earhart missing somewhere large (England??) and landing in a field in another country (Ireland?). Can't remember exactly. Fred could only plot the anticipated course to where that should be and take fixes to work out where they were. But 50 to 120 miles off course? Over what distance? I heard a tale about one student locally (no names mentioned) who was around 60 miles off course on a 130 mile track, but the airfield he landed at had an "M" in the name - just like the one he was supposed to land at. Now that IS bad navigation. I always thought Fred's arrivals at either side of his destination were supposed to be deliberate to allow him to fly down the line if there were no nav aids on arrival.. Th' WOMBAT **************************************************************************** From Ric No. The whole point of the Pan Am sytem is that there WERE navaids (Adcock DF stations) at the destinations. The Pan Am flights navigated direct. No offset. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:06:18 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Fred's Bad Navigation Habits? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Marty Moleski > From Doug Brutlag > > I used to think Fred was an ace navigator but in the last > few months I have begun to wonder. ... On the fatal flight, FN got himself and AE close enough to produce signal strength 5 on the Itasca. That was good enough for their purposes--if only the DF and communication radios had worked correctly or if other lucky breaks had gone their way (visual sighting of Howland from a long way out). In the way I tell the story to myself, neither FN or AE knew that they had a blindspot until it was too late. They didn't anticipate that they would get zero (0) help from the Itasca. It seems that FN trusted AE to handle that part of the flight plan, and it also seems that she may not have understood the theory and practice of DF. She wanted Itasca to locate them--even though she could not hear the Itasca--and when she whistled, it was not long enough for Itasca to get a plot; then she tried to DF on 7500, which was the least useful frequency for DF, and that was the one and only time she is recorded as having received a message from land or sea on the final flight. Bottom line: I'm not sure we should blast Fred when it was Amelia's hand on the dials. Marty #2359 *************************************************************************** From Ric It seems to me like there was an awful lot of complacency going on, beginning long before the crisis over the Pacific. - Neither one of them was adept at morse code. - AE purposely ducked out of taking the Radio Navigation test while preparing for the first attempt. - AE wrecked the airplane in Hawaii because she wasn't competent to fly it alone at that weight. - They both went along with Joe Gurr's screwball plan of eliminating the trailing wire and lengthening the dorsal antenna. - Fred missed his landfall on the coast of Africa and they had to go to an alternate destination. - AE couldn't get the DF to work on the test flight at Lae and assumed that she was merely too close to the station. - No two-way communication was established with Lae after takeoff and we have good evidence that at least one of the pitot systems was damaged; and yet AE was twice heard to transmit "Everything okay." Although AE seems to have been responsible for handling the radio, Noonan had more than a passing interest in the flight arriving at its destination. I can't see them as being simply the victims of bad luck nor can I see Fred as being devoid of responsibility for going along with AE's "courage is the price" attitude. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:07:49 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Vaguely worrying report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Russ Matthews (#0509CE) There is another reason for NCL to include a stop at Fanning Island in their Hawaiian cruise itinerary. By law, no foreign-flag vessel may operate exclusively in American waters. If you study the NCL itinerary closely, you'll see that they always include a port-call outside US territory -- Vancouver, Canada...Ensenada, Mexico...or Fanning Island. The big advantage of adding Kiribati is that Tabuaeran (Fanning) is much closer to Hawaii thus allowing for shorter, more convenient, and less expensive 7 day cruise schedules. It seems to me that this Kiribati development indicates a handy expedient for opening the UNITED STATES cruise market and not the other way around. Mainstream cruising is best seen as staying in a hotel where the scenery changes every day. Guests (mostly Americans) want activities, sports, restaurants, and shopping -- so days spent at sea or in undeveloped ports are therefore kept to a bare minimum. Due to the distances involved and the lack of infrastructure, I believe it is highly unlikely that Niku will become a major tourist stop. It will remain an "adventure" destination for the foreseeable future. LTM, Russ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:13:02 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Niku from Shuttle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dan Postellon March 7, 1996 Shuttle photo of Niku (Gardner Island). It looks like the other shuttle photos. Available at: (use simple search for Gardner) Also Kanton (use Canton) http://earthrise.space.com/ Daniel Postellon TIGHAR#2263 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:25:57 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Clipper Logbook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From John Pratt Just to tuck away the end of the thread, here's the reply to my query to Otto G. Richter Library, University of Miami, Coral Gables, Florida XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Dear Mr. Pratt, I am sorry to report that we do not have the logbook for the famous Ford flight around the work after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. You are correct the specific plane was the Pacific Clipper We do not have any knowledge of the logbook or where it might be located today if still in existence. Craig Likness Head, Archives and Special Collections XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX I am not sure that the Pan American records are that relevant, although it would have been amusing to find "one consignment of unidentified bones, property of Sir Harry" listed in the flight manifest. Clearly Sir Ian Thompson's memories and Sir Harry Luke's papers may be a better place to look for bones. Is there a UK researcher who can check the papers? LTM John Pratt 2373 **************************************************************************** From Ric Yes. That possibility is currently under discussion. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:28:11 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Pan Am DF Equipment, PVH Weems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag Ric; In PVH Weems book, AIR NAVIGATION 2nd edition, pub. 1938, radio navigation chapter, pages 209-210, it talks about Pan Am using Adcock and "verticle-radiator" aerial systems in their DF equipment. It was a type of system that had been devised to overcome night effect when taking bearings. It also shows a small chart of actual plots of 32 bearings taken on the west coast-Hawaii flights. Other systems were subject to errors of 10-20 degrees or more from night effect. I'll forward a copy to you if you wish. Doug Brutlag ****************************************************************************Fr om Ric Thanks Doug. Please do. It may be that the post-loss Pan Am bearings are more credible than we had supposed. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:32:02 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Payload to Auckland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Denise Ric says: "It would be interesting to know how the permission to land at Suva came about." I don't know, but the answer could be the one given by Jim Tierney. "One reason was to ... allow the Clipper to carry more payload to Auckland ...." Look at this for a moment. Here we have a situation where war is expected. The New Zealand Air Force is already stationed in Suva, but nothing else appears to be happening. According to Tom King, under Sir Harry Lukes and "Mungo" Thompson, Fiji wasn't doing anything about organising itself for the war. However, the same can't be said of the Kiwis in Fiji. Although "always drunk and disorderly", according to reports of the time, they seem the only ones to have had their act together. All the activity in Suva - including the building of dad's hospital (then designated as The New Zealand Army Hospital), and the construction of the underground hospital at Tamavua - was being carried out by them. And since they were the only people actually DOING SOMETHING, I imagine they had an awful lot of clout. The guilt factor? So, obviously, if the Kiwis needed something - say, more flights between Suva and Auckland to transport, say, goods and information - I think they would have got it. Especially if it didn't cost Fiji anything. Surely, Pam Am would have been seen as just another flight between Suva and Auckland - and one which cost NZ and Fiji very little. (Maybe the payload Pam Am carried was the payment for landing there. Who knows!) Even the highly Yanko-phobic Sir Harry Lukes wouldn't have stood in their way. And since it landed and departed from within the New Zealand Air Force base, the whole operation was in Kiwi hands anyway. Sir Harry Lukes could have just done a Pilate, and washed HIS hands of the whole affair. That certainly seems like the path of least resistance, and taking that path seemed the type of thing Lukes did best. So maybe that's how the whole situation came about. Although this is just me thinking aloud, I hope this helps. LTM (who is perfectly aware that a Kiwi has no hands. Doesn't even have wings.) Denise P.S. Talking about New Zealand wildlife, and remembering Ric's assertion about dinosaurs ... DNA tests done on the Tuatara - New Zealand's only non-bird fauna - discovered that it ISN'T a lizard after all. It is, in fact, a dinosaur. So Ric's assertion is wrong. Dinosaurs are NOT extinct ... but they soon will be. The New Zealand Conservation Council is desperately underfunded. Any donation will help! So how about it? Want to "Save the Dinosaur", anyone? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:33:21 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Fred's Bad Navigation Habits? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Marty Moleski > ** From Ric > ... I can't see them as being simply the victims of bad luck > nor can I see Fred as being devoid of responsibility for going along with > AE's "courage is the price" attitude. Agreed. I was not arguing for a finding of innocence on FN's part, just for a better distribution of responsibility between him and AE. And I do so from a position of inferiority to both of them. If TIGHAR's hypothesis is correct, they very nearly won their bet that they could find Howland after an all-night flight from Lae. And if TIGHAR's hypothesis is correct, one or both of them lived long enough to have been rescued. Marty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:39:17 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Earhart & Noonan: Easily and Often Bored? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Janet Whitney Has anyone else noticed that it appears that Earhart and Noonan became bored after six months to a year with whatever project they became involved in? Also, it appears the accidents, lapses in judgement, personnel problems, etc. typically occurred after Earhart and Noonan had been doing the same thing for more than a year. Janet Whitney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:37:57 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Vaguely worrying report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dan Postellon The "foreign flag" law explains the stop at Fanning/Tabuaeran nicely. It would take a lot of money to develop Niku for tourism. At a minimum, I expect you would have to build a modern dock, and set up a local population and a local fresh water supply. However, all the uninhabited Phoenix islands have been designated as nature reserves, EXCEPT Nikumaroro. Dan Postellon TIGHAR#2263 LTM (who prefers an outside cabin) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:09:44 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Fred's Bad Navigation Habits? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Herman De Wulf She landed in Ireland. It happens to be the first land one sees flying from New York to England. I don't know why she decided to land in Ireland. Lindbergh also hit upon Ireland in 1927. But he decided he had enough fuel to press continue to Paris. Maybe she was out of gas ? As for erratic navigation, what pilot dares to say he never lost his way at one time in his career ? Consider the Northwest DC-10 that landed at Brussels (Belgium) a couple of years ago, 300 miles short of its destination which was Frankfurt (Germany). For some reason Irish ATC thought it was heading for Brussels and passed the flight on to London who told the pilots to descend, passing them over to Brussels, who without further questioning cleared them for landing... not realizing they didn't have a flight plan from that DC-10. The two pilots panicked when their preset radio's failed to pick up the Frankfurt VORs needed for the landing procedure and announced a "major electronics breakdown". They never realized they were on the Brussels frequency. Brussels Approach told them not to worry and brought them down by radar to a safe landing. At no time had they realized that they in itiating landing ahead of their timing and therefore could not have arrived at their destin ation yet. They called Frankfurt Approach on the Brussels VHF frequency but Brussels didn't notice and gave instructions for approach and ensuing landing. The pilots unthinkingly executed the Brussels ATC orders and landed safely... in the wrong place. Which proves that even the best can make mistakes sometimes. Interestingly the passengers were aware they were landing at Brussels because they had screens in the cabin which showed the aircraft's position. This facility was not available to the cockpit crew. The cabin crew was also aware but had not dared sort of error could happen around 1996 or 1997, Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan could just as easily have missed Howland by mistake, flying VFR as they did in 1937. **************************************************************************** From Ric Ireland seems to be the common thread - and Fred was Irish. Hmmmm. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:11:02 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Noonan's Latitude MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Bright Ric, Poor FN is getting bashed and noone does it better than Briand's book. Briand writes that Jackie Cochran convinced Amelia to take Fred out over the Pacific from Los Angeles, fly around in circles till FN was "disoriented", than see if he could get back to LA. Amelia did so and Fred got back, but it was halfway between LA and San Francisco. Roughly a 210 mile error! Don't know how far out they were. She was not "undisturbed" over the navigation error. (p. 156-157, Daughter of the Sky). No cites given. So from Lae to Howland, with Noonan at the chart table, they may have ended up after 20 plus hours just over Niku at 0843!! Ron Bright ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:12:13 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Payload to Auckland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King Denise says: "According to Tom King, under Sir Harry Lukes and "Mungo" Thompson, Fiji wasn't doing anything about organising itself for the war." That's not "according to me;" it's according to Wainwright Abbott, U.S. Consul in Fiji 1940-42, whose reports I've been scanning at the National Archives. I don't know how much accuracy there is in Mr. Abbott's perceptions, how much is bias, how much reflects the biases of others. Since everything I've heard about Sir Harry, and my experience with Sir Ian ("Mungo") has been very positive, I was surprised at Abbott's postively vituperative situation reports, and I don't put much stock in them at present as anything but expressions of Abbott's opinions. LTM (who has a world of respect for Sir Ian, and for Sir Harry's memory) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:36:22 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Earhart & Noonan: Easily and Often Bored? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Alan Caldwell > From Janet Whitney > > Has anyone else noticed that it appears that Earhart and Noonan became bored > after six months to a year with whatever project they became involved in? > Also, it appears the accidents, lapses in judgement, personnel problems, > etc. > typically occurred after Earhart and Noonan had been doing the same thing > for > more than a year. > > Janet Whitney > You might have something there, Janet. Could you cite some examples? Alan #2329 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:37:35 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Save the dinosaur MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric > Dinosaurs are NOT extinct ... but they soon will > > be. The New Zealand Conservation Council is desperately underfunded. Any > > donation will help! So how about it? Want to "Save the Dinosaur", anyone? > What do they eat? I'll send food. Alan #2329 **************************************************************************** From Ric Kiwis. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:52:29 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: MacGuffin redux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From David Evans Katz This article appeared in today's Hartford Courant. Given the Forum's interest in finding a "MacGuffin" I thought that everyone would find this amusing. David Evans Katz ****************************** There's A Hitch Behind The Meaning Of `MacGuffin' By ROB KYFF The Hartford Courant February 07, 2001 Nan Glass of Hartford wonders about the term "MacGuffin." She encountered it twice on the same day, but with two conflicting meanings and two different spellings. Her first MacGuffinization came when the New York Times Magazine described the late Alec Guinness as "perennially on the scent of: the McGuffin, the bit of magic that lifts a piece out of the common ruck." She was MacGuffinned again when The Courant quoted filmmaker Ken Burns: "The MacGuffin in my Mark Twain film is his Hartford house. It's the symbol of escaping his boyhood. It's the symbol of tragedies that beset his family. And it's ground zero for his creative energies." So is a "MacGuffin" a dash of magic or an essential symbol? Strict MacGuffinists would say neither. The term "MacGuffin," first used by Alfred Hitchcock in a lecture at Columbia University in 1939, is an element in a film, novel or play that provides a pretext for the plot. It may be anything - secret papers, jewelry, money - that propels the story. The MacGuffin itself has little, if any, intrinsic meaning. MacGuffins in Hitchcock's own films include the stolen $40,000 in "Psycho," the scientific formula in "The 39 Steps" and the smuggled microfilm in "North by Northwest." Other cinematic examples include the falcon statue in "The Maltese Falcon" and the mysterious briefcase in "Pulp Fiction." (Some contend Rosebud in "Citizen Kane" is a MacGuffin, but I disagree. Its meaning, revealed at the end of the film, illuminates Kane's life.) But why "MacGuffin"? Hitchcock said the term originated in a strange story told by his longtime Hollywood friend, writer Angus MacPhail: Two Scottish men are riding on a train when one man asks the other about the contents of a package on the overhead luggage rack. "It's a MacGuffin," says the first man, "a device for hunting tigers in Scotland." "But there are no tigers in Scotland," replies the second man. "Well then, it's not a MacGuffin," says the first. As for spelling, most authorities prefer "MacGuffin," in deference to the "Mac" of "MacPhail," but "McGuffin" is an acceptable and common alternative. So the Times' use of "MacGuffin" to mean an uplifting turn of magic and Burns' connotation of a central metaphor both seem to have, well, a Hitch. **************************************************************************** From Ric Yes. The forum came to the same conclusion. Just goes to show how the folk process distorts all sorts of language. As I heard Hitchcock tell it in a TV interview, the men on the train are not Scottish but the MacGuffin is said to be used for trapping lions in Scottish Highlands. "But there are no lions in the Scottish Highlands." "Then that's no MacGuffin." The story, of course, makes absolutely no sense. If there's a MacGuffin in the search for Amelia Earhart it is, ironically, the fate of the lost flyers. Historically, it really doesn't matter what happened to Earhart and Noonan. What makes the search interesting is the investigative process. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:05:47 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Harry Manning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Michael Bar What about Harry Manning ? He was heavily involved in Ms. Earhart's radio equipment and took some test flights with her until the groundloop in Hawaii. Then she kicked him of the program. Maybe some documents exist about his assesment and opinion about the Electra 10E and Earhart and the Radio eqipment, etc. Or did'nt he leave anything...? He'd be a great witness to get some info about Earharts handling of the Radio and the Electra. What about his Family? Reading almost all the relevant Books about AE I think that Manning never really liked to be involved with the Worldflight, judging from the photographs he almost always has a sour face and crossed arms. Yet he was a very capable navigator. Everyone who was involved with Earhart's flight so intimately left his or her two cents worth, albeit heavily opinionated, i.e. Paul Mantz, Putnam, Cochran etc. Perhaps it has been already discussed since I am fairly new to the Forum... Michael Bahr **************************************************************************** From Ric Manning's papers are at the Merchant Marine Museum at King's Point, NY but contain no great revelations about Earhart (TIGHAR Stalwart Russ Matthews reviewed them in 1990). Manning is an interesting character in the Earhart saga. He and AE were old friends - perhaps very good friends - but the addition of Noonan to the team just prior to the Oakland/Honolulu flight not exactly an endoresment of his airborne navigational acumen. His departure from the World Flight project following the debacle in Hawaii seems to have been his idea, not hers. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:10:42 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Pan Am DF Equipment, PVH Weems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Woody Ric, This little "gem " appeared in the August 1937 Sport Aviation in an article titled"That Man Weems".On page 95 at the end of the article. Commander Weems says that Noonan and Amelia Earhart did not overshoot Howland island, a theory that is generally accepted by the public, but actually must have run out of gasoline before reaching the tiny pin-point of land. "Noonan had been flying for Pan American for many years" he asserted, "and it was all in a days work to hit smaller islands than Howland square on the nose" . My father , Col RW Peard USMC, was a USNA graduate Class of 1949.He got his "Wings of Gold" in 1952. At the age of 75 he is still flying and has never jumped out of a " perfectly good airplane". To him thats a plane that hasn't hit the ground yet.He knew Cmdr Weems and took a class from him during his stint at the Naval Academy. He wanted me to post this message. " Cmdr Weems was one of the most innovative and knowledgeable navigation instructors in the world ,barring none.He was constantly looking for ways to simplify navigation methods and to improve the tools of the trade.Anyone that took instruction from him would know exactly where he was, anytime. A fascinating person. Woody **************************************************************************** From Ric That's an interesting quote from Weems, especially given that all of Pan Am's destination islands were actually quite a bit larger than Howland. Despite various allegations in various books, we've been able to find no documentation that Noonan ever took instruction from Weems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:15:14 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: R.I.P. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom Robison Just heard on the news that Anne Morrow Lindbergh died today. For those of you who may not recognize the name, she was the wife of Charles Lindbergh, "Lucky Lindy". TomR **************************************************************************** From Ric Off topic, but worthy of note. Mrs. Lindbergh was kind enough to endorse our search for Nungesser and Coli back in 1985. Like her husband, she was a very interesting, courageous - and sometimes controversial - person. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:20:23 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Noonan's Capabilities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom MM Ric: Well, let's be careful in evaluating Noonan's capabilities. Briand claims that AE flew out from LA and then disoriented Noonan, expecting him to deliver them back to LA with accuracy. Let's consider the tools available to Noonan. 1) DR position: This can only be done from a careful log and plot of heading, air/ground speed, and time. If Noonan was deprived of headings and air/ground speed (as reported by the pilot) this tool, although crude, breaks down completely. 2) Celestial: We don't know the significant criteria on this - what time of day, available celestial bodies, or what quality of fix, if any, they would provide. It is possible that no significant latitude info was discernable during the flight time. 3) RDF: This may have been available, but it is unclear whether this was under the control of AE or FN. In summary - FN's navigational toolbag may have been completely in line with the standards of the time. It is entirely possible to pose problems which were poorly addressed by the available tools, and this (as well as the landfall component of Lae-Howland) could be one of them. Nevertheless, it may not reflect any discredit on FN. TOM MM **************************************************************************** From Ric I certainly wouldn't trash Fred based on anything Paul Briand said. (He was the one who suggested that the Electra flew to Saipan because AE and FN forgot to set their directional gyro and flew 90 degrees off course for 20 plus hours.) More damning is the record of Nooan's less-than-rigorous techniques while employed by Pan Am. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:37:39 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Tourism at Niku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Herman De Wulf Dan Postellon wrote: >At a minimum, I expect you would have to build a modern dock, and set up a local >population and a local fresh water supply. Not necessarily. If they really want to go ashore they can drop anchor and send the passengers on a discovery tour in the ship's motor launches. If they can't beach the boats, an inexpensive small dock would suffice. But it would still cost money and the question is : would that be worth the expense ? **************************************************************************** From Ric Let me clear up some misconceptions. You can't "drop anchor" at Niku. The reef drops off too steeply. If you're in close enough to set an anchor, you don't have room to swing without hitting the reef. Any ship visiting Niku has to stand offshore, under power, while people go ashore. The only safe way through the reef is via a narrow (35 feet or so wide) channel blasted through to the beach at the southwest end sometime around 1963. The channel will accomodate a small launch but, in any kind of swell, offloading and onloading passengers is still dangerous. Forget about any kind of dock. It would last only until the next "westerly." The only way to make the island a destination for anything but small "adventure tourism" visits would be to blast a new channel through the main lagoon passage large for a cruise ship to enter the lagoon. Aside from the astronomical cost, the effect of such an action would probably screw up the atoll's entire environment big time. Ain't gonna happen. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:38:59 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: FN's abilities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee Ron Bright said: " . . . Fred got back, but it was halfway between LA and San Francisco. Roughly a 210 mile error! Don't know how far out they were. She was not "undisturbed" over the navigation error. (p. 156-157, Daughter of the Sky). No