========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:18:55 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Weems Letter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag For Dennis McGee Check out PVH Weems book, "Air Navigation", published by McGraw-Hill 1938 2nd edition & 4th edition 1955. It's in the chapter, Navigation In Flight in which he talks about accounts of navigation in long distance flights of the era. Quote"The accuracy of fixes was very gratifiying. By that, an accuracy of approximately 10 miles is implied. My experience is that such a degree of accuracy is about the average one can expect in aerial navigation". Quote from Fred's letter to PVH Weems on methods & procedures aboard Clippers to Hawaii Intertropical convergence zone: last time I looked, in July the pattern shifts towards the north with the southern boundary just about right on the equator with winds out of the east. Lae lies on latitude S6'34'' and Howland N0'48". Flying west to east they would be abeam the area to start and in it the last few hundred miles or so. Again, this area is noted for alot of clouds associated from storm activity. I cannot help but wonder how well one can take sextant observations at night in this area of the world. Doug Brutlag #2335 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:26:26 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: W40K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Harry Poole Ric, In relation to the amateur operator W4OK. F.G. Carroll (spelled as Carroll) had the First name of Francis, not Fred. His wife's name was Leone. In 1938, he was an engineer at radio station WJNO, and had moved a few miles to West Palm Beach from Lake Worth. Both he and his wife eventually retired in Fort Pierce, and both died in 2000, within the last 8 months. I am trying to locate any children they had that still may live in the area, and might have some information that could help. In addition, I will try to check the local West Palm Beach paper for any related information, if I can do it by mail. West Palm Beach is too far for me to travel. However, I thought we had another TIGHAR member in the West Palm Beach area. Harry ************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Harry. Sorry about assuming that you could check the Lake Worth paper. Okay gang, who do we have that lives in the Palm Beach area and will admit it? I seem to recall having a cousin who lives in Ft. Pierce. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:32:19 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Celestial Choir MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag Ric; As sargent-at arms of the new leaner & meaner Earhart Forum, would you consider the idea of those interested members of the celestial choir trying a research experiment? I've made a chart of the area from Howland to the Phoenix group showing locations of the land masses(islands) using exact latitude/longitude coordinates. It is on 2 pieces of paper each 12''X 14". When butted up together you have a custom made chart for the geographical area showing the land masses & lines of lat/long. To the sailors & navigators in your group, it is simply the VP-OS sheets otherwaise known as universal plotting charts. With this projection one can plot LOP's in great detail & simulate some precise dead reackoning if desired. How about those interested parties who know something about navigation(celestial prefered but not required) each take a copyu of the sheet(s), run some calcs & estimates as they wish and lets see what comes up. Might put this LOP question to rest. I'll send out copies to choir members on request and one to TIGHAR if you'd like to put it on the website for others. Doug Brutlag(who prefers not to have to dodge swings of bowie knives & pirate cutlasses') #2335 *************************************************************************** From Ric Choir members who would like to participate in Doug's exercise can contact him directly at brutavia@shout.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:40:42 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: FN and Weems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From JHam 2128 Re FN's letter to Weems mentioned by McGee: We have a copy of the letter. FN wrote it in reply to a Weems' letter we don't have and didn't find. The FN letter appeared in both one of Weems' books on air navigation and also in the May 1938 issue of Popular Aviation. It is dated May 11, 1935. Excerpts from it are in the Eighth Edition. Dennis, your brain cells are slipping. Probably related to Halloween, no doubt. blue skies, -jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:48:37 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Navigation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt Contrary to popular opinion the ITCZ does not "sit on the equator" it migrates north and south, so Ric and Randy hav told us something a lot of people don't know. Also, the weather report of CUmulous cloud about half way enroute, and the similar weather at the Howland end al night strongly suggest that for a lot of the way Fred WAS able to get regular celestial fixes all night. July is also the calmest part of the year in the region. Around this time of year major tropical storms begin to sneak up on us. Most of the bad weather and storms then are directly related to moist air in proximity to land masses. Depending how close they were to the equator they possibly could see Nauru workings at night from altitude as a glow in the distance. I believe the guano workings were at an altitude of around 180 feet above sea level. A 5000 candlepower light 5600 feet above sea level may only be visible to ships at 34 miles, but to an aircraft at 9000 feet it is a whole other ball game. One or two degrees from the equator and they just might, given a few breaks in the clouds. Bearing in mind it was not just one light, but the greater part of an island that was lit up. Picture flying at night - and how far away you can see small towns at night. Then add the light high up for good measure. One thing that does bother me though. I thought Nauru's elevation was about 180 feet. The phosphate workings were. All I'm trying to establish here is to confirm once and for all that Noonan almost certainly "arrived" at the immediate vicinity of Howland. The Ontario weather report certainly kills some of the "Fred may not have got a fix" speculation. Next question, although the winds aloft would be very different. Did Ontario give a wind speed and direction for the night? Th' WOMBAT *************************************************************************** From Ric Ontario logged surface winds out of the East at 3 or 4 knots until 22:00 local after which they swung around out of the ENE and increased somewhat to 5 or 6 knots. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:14:59 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: W40K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg > >From Warren Lambing > > Ric and Bob > > Is there anyway to ascertain, where the Ham operator in Wyoming may have > > been? Might be of interest to see if he could be in the same GC. > > Regards. > > Warren Lambing > ************************************************************************** > >From Ric > > How about 1408 Tenth Street, Rock Springs, WY? (Ron Bright has been in touch > with the local paper.) The great circle bearing (GCB) from Lake Worth Florida (W4OK) to Rock Springs is 309.6 degrees. The GCB from St. Petersburg to Rock Springs is 310 degrees. So those three sites are virtually on the same great circle. But the great circle containing Niku and Rock Springs does not include St. Petersburg or Lake Worth. This raises new questions, as if we didn't have enough already: Did Rock Springs hear Earhart and relay the intercept live to W4OK? Did Betty hear the relay and W4OK being called by or responding to Rock Springs? This gets curiouser and curiouser. LTM, Bob Brandenburg, #2286 ************************************************************************** From Ric "Rock Springs" is Dana Randolph, a 16 year old "amateur radio fan" with an "inexpensive commercial set". He ain't relaying nothin' to nobody. Dana is also an African-American in a town that has a black population of .01 percent. The fact that he was investigated and that the authorities agreed that the message he heard was "thought to be from KHAQQ" indicates to me that his report is highly credible. So far in my plotting of reported post-loss signals I can tell you that at the time Dana is reported to have heard what he heard (15:00Z on July 4), Coast Guard San Francisco is hearing nothing on 3105 but within 15 minutes (at 15:15Z) Pan Am Mokapu in Hawaii takes a "doubtful" bearing of 213 degrees on a rough carrier on 3105. A 213 degree bearing from Mokapu passes very close to Gardner Island. The reported time of Dana's signal is fairly shaky (a Honolulu Star Bulletin article that has his name as Charles and his age as 12) so it may be that PAA and Dana are hearing the same transmission except that PAA is hearing the badly degraded primary frequency while Dana is hearing intelligible voice on a harmonic. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:16:21 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: 150 SE by 50 E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Gary Payne This thought has kind of tasked me throughout the discussion of this particular message. Anyone considered if it could have been "WE ARE 150 MILES SOUTH EST(imated) BY 50 MILES EAST"? Either a typo in the original transcription or actually misheard? Just a thought . . . --gary payne (a lurker going gently back into that good night) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:18:52 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Position reports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy jacobson I said: At no radio position report was a time provided when the fix was valid Ross asked: How do we know? To Ross Devitt: As stated earlier in my previous posting, I examined all radio transmissions and nagivational fixes, according to the actual chart used, for comparison. When either condition was not met (i.e. radio position reports or chart), I could not make the determination of report validity. Only those cases (actually the Oakland to Honolulu leg) formed the basis of my report. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:26:54 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Amelia and the shoes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King For Richard L -- For what it's worth (very little), my pet speculation has Noonan dieing and Earhart injuring her foot, which swells to the point where it won't fit in her shoe; so at the Aukaraime site she puts on one of Fred's, leaving the other one and one of her own, and hobbles on to the Seven Site where she expires. Accounts for everything, but entirely, entirely speculative. LTM (who prefers slippers) Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:35:31 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Bevington's recollections of Niku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King > I think we have > gotten all there is to get. I wonder about asking Eric to sketch the "bivouack site." Kenton keeps reminding us of the mounds and pits at Aukaraime, and while I have a lot of trouble thinking that they could represent the low piles of rubble that Eric and Harry saw, it would be interesting to see if Eric can summon up a visual image that he could sketch, for comparison. With dimensions, hopefully, so we could make some better judgement about whether such a mound might cover a body. TK ************************************************************************** From Ric As long as we all understand that such a sketch would be valuable only in the most general sense of establishing some sort of scale for the size of the "mounds." Or perhaps the same purpose would be served if Gerry asked him to estimate the dimensions of the mounds. I'm very leery of sketches drawn from ancient memories because it's so easy to subsequently think of them as accurate representations. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:44:34 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Fred, aren't we overdue? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson OK, let's set the record straight. At Howland, sunrise was at 1657Z, and was the nautical sunrise. This converts to 0527 local time. Civil Sunrise was at 1723Z, or 0553 local time. Local time determined by +11.5 TZ for the Itasca...Howland was at +10.5, so add an hour to the above. Using Nautical sunrise, here are the sunlines at Howland: 1745Z 66.9* 1800Z 67.0* 1830Z 66.8* 1900Z 66.2* 1930Z 65.2* 2000Z 63.7* 2300Z 27.9* At the time of AE's last transmission, 2013Z, the LOP would have been approx. 154/334*. However, Noonan could not directly measure the LOP direction, but could only calculate it based upon the height of the sun above the horizon. There would be little incentive to re-check the LOP of sun height at this time, as there is not enough difference in angle from the sunrise LOP. It would, however, give FN a double-check on his DRing the LOP to Howland. *************************************************************************** From Ric Is that 27.9 at 2300Z a typo? I assume that these numbers are for observations taken at the surface. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:01:14 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Antenna and propagation simulations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg For th' WOMBAT >> Another quick question from WOMBAT. What effect would "ground" have on propagation of the Electra's radio signal and also on reception? << When a transmitter antenna is in proximity to ground, the radiated field at a distance from the antenna is the resultant of a wave radiated directly from the antenna and a phase-reversed wave reflected from ground. The ground-reflected component is computed by the "method of images", in which the ground is replaced by an image of the antenna at a distance H below the ground plane, where H is the height of the real antenna above the ground plane. Because of this image relationship, the conductivity of the ground is a determinant in the strength of the radiated field. Clearly, a perfectly conducting ground is the ideal case, more about which later. According to the reciprocity principle, a receiving antenna has the same image relationship with ground as does a transmitter antenna except, of course, that the incoming wave induces current in the receiving antenna - - in contrast to the transmitter antenna in which current generates the outgoing wave. By driving a copper pipe into the ground (I use a length of steel concrete reinforcing rod - - works well for SWL), or connecting to a water pipe, you put the ground reference (the chassis) of the equipment, transmitter or receiver, at the same electrical potential as actual ground, thus getting maximum benefit from the image effect. The fuselage of the Electra was the ground for the dorsal vee antenna and, being aluminum, was close to a perfect conductor. So the antenna had a virtually ideal ground whether airborne or on the ground. Water on the reef flat contacting the metal parts of the aircraft's undercarriage had little if any effect on the performance of the antenna - - the ground that it "saw" was the fuselage. On the other hand, if the Electra had been made of non-conducting materials - - say, a wooden frame covered by fabric - - then the dorsal vee antenna would have behaved as if in "free space" when the aircraft was in flight, and would have behaved like an antenna close to ground when on the reef flat. LTM, who says ground is good. Bob #2286 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:02:19 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: 150 SE by 50 E MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King Ah. Thank you. I'm wondering if Mr. Russell might have misheard something like "drifting" as "fifty" and reconstructed the rest. Imagine Earhart saying something like "We think we're about 150 miles SE of Howland but may have been drifting east." I know, utterly unknowable, but.... TK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:15:03 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Amelia and her shoes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Richard Lund From Ric: >>If the Japanese had been on Niku you might think that the people who lived there might have noticed, not to mention the U.S. Coast Guard station near the 7 site.<< In the words of the immortal Homer Simpson "D'OH" I spent a week and a half searching the web for any indication that the japanese may have been to Niku and what did I do--- miss the most obvious thing!! You know when I was new to the forum I was scared to say anything because I didn't know anything,I think now my biggest problem is I know enough to make comments but I still don't know enough to be accurate enough. LTM Richard L #2376 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:22:02 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Janet and Gardner Island MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Janet Whitney Janet is not telling anyone to go fly a kite, believe in "harmonics," read "Betty's" tea leaves, etc. If I've been declared "personna non grata" by the "yabba yabba doo...back to Niku TIGHAR crewe" so be it. If y'all want to exchange E-mail with me about all the junk TIGHAR found on Gardner, y'all have my e-mail address. Janet Whitney JanetWhitney@lycos.com ************************************************************************* From Ric Nobody declared you to be "personna non grata". I've cut you more slack than anyone I can think of and I'm still willing to post anything intelligent that you may have to contribute, but peer reveiw is a bitch. Get over it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:32:23 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: W8AQQ in 1937 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bill Moffet Ric, Taking Janet Whitney's information (Thank you, Janet.), I emailed the Quarter Century Wireless Assn. and today received the following from Jim Walsh, W7LVN, General Manager, in reply to my request for the name and address of W8AQQ in July 1937: "In the Fall '367 Callbook: William R. Scott, Box 85, Forestport, NY" I suspect that Mr. Scott is a "silent key" inasmuch as W8AQQ was listed in 1993 to Mr. Kallio in Huntington Woods, MI. Knowing it doesn't help our quest, in reading Mr. Russell's report of what he heard, it occurred to me that he may have caught part of a "rag chew" between a couple of radio amateurs. In July "cold weather" doesn't make much sense on an Equatorial island--nor even 25 miles north of Utica, but a "bad cold" might. A look at Eastern New York shows Forestport to be about 50 miles east of the eastern end of Lake Ontario. Holland (sounds like Howland), NY is a little town some 25-30 miles southeast of Buffalo and appears to be around 180 miles as the crow flies due east and a little south of Forestport. Well, it's just a thought. LTM Bill Moffet #2156 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:45:31 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Wristwatch/Chronometer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Vern One more time with wristwatches, although I doubt the subject can advance the project. In Fred Noonan's letter to P. V. H. Weems, and published in Weems' book. Fred wrote: "Time pieces carried were a Longines Civil Time Chronometer and a Longines second-setting watch. The latter was set to correct G.C.T. at all times by checking with the chronometer. This watch was of the arm type, but the strap was removed, and the watch clips on the octant were adjusted to accomodate the brackets on each side of the watch. I prefer such an arrangement to carrying the watch on the arm." Of course, he's writing of the navigational equipment used on the PAA Clippers. The watch we see Fred wearing may be one of those seconds-setting watches and approaching being a chronometer in its own right. I wonder if that watch may be the origin of the idea that Fred carried his chronometer with him at all times? *************************************************************************** From Ric Interesting. I have a local expert and collector of chronometers with whom I can check about the Longines products mentioned. It also makes sense that Fred, after arriving in Lae, takes his watch that he has had clipped to the octant and puts it on a strap which he has just fastened around his wrist in the photo. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:01:53 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: W40K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Terry Ann Linley (Ric's Fort Pierce cousin) Well, I have to (sheepishly) admit that I've NOT been following all the threads on the Earhart Forum, and this one slipped by me! Thanks for the Head's Up, Ric . Please give me a few days (like through the weekend?), and I'll get back to you ASAP. LTM (who wishes there were more hours in her day!), Terry (and a few minutes later) From Terry Ann Linley, Well, I don't know who said "there's no time like the present," but I decided to go ahead and make a couple of phone calls: the first to a good friend who is a Fort Pierce native (and knows LOTS of people), and the second to the Fort Pierce Tribune, the local newspaper. I've not heard from my friend yet, but the Tribune searched back through it's Obituaries and found that Leone Carroll passed away on 9 September 2000 and left ONE SURVIVOR: a daughter, Nancy Carroll. In the Fort Pierce telephone book, there was an 'NA Carroll' listed, so I left a message on the answering machine. Stay tuned....... LTM (who knows that busy people get the job done!), Terry ************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks cousin! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:03:32 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Noonan-Weems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dennis McGee To Doug Brutlag: Thanks for your clarification regarding the Noonan-Weems connection. I was curious because the 1938 2nd Edition of Weems' book, "Air Navigation" has two prefaces, a reprint of the 1st Edition preface and a new preface for the 2nd Edition. In these prefaces, Weems thanks various individuals who help him write the book, mentioning by name and rank such luminaries as Col. Charles Lindbergh, Paul (?) Gatty, Adm. Richard Byrd, and "my friend" Lincoln Ellsworth. No where did he mention Fred Noonan. It's rather curious that Weems quoted Noonan in the book, according to your earlier post, but "overlooked (?)" him in his acknowledgements in both prefaces, while mentioning all of those other fellows. I could understand the oversight in the first edition as a simple writing/editing error but it would appear to be something Weems -- a real stickler for accuracy, as navigators are -- would've wanted corrected in the 2nd Edition, especially since by that time his source was the now-deceased and semi-famous Fred Noonan, former star navigator for Pan Am Airways. Weems was not bashful about promoting his navigational skills and his school for navigators, and he quotes Fred in his book, which is widely held to be THE definitive work for its time on air navigation. Yet, he doesn't acknowledge Fred's contributions. Why? Hubris? Am I reading too much into this? LTM, who's a true believer Dennis O. McGee #0149EC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:04:49 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: The Great Navigation Challenge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Doug Brutlag To all interested Forumites: If you would like to participate in the navigation experiment mentioned in a previous posting(aka "The Great Navigation Challenge") Ric posted my email address to get your name in for a chart copy, brutavia@shout.net. Email your snail-mail address to me and after a few days to gauge interest I'll have copies of the chart made and sent out to all respondents. Make copies of the chart for yourself(no copyright infringements here folks!) in case you make mistakes or want to try different theories. I'm off to go do some aviating & navigating and will be back on Friday. I'll send a chart to Ric as well to post on the website as he sees fit. Doug Brutlag #2335 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:06:59 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Question regarding Wire in Aircraft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194: I have a question relating to aircraft/airframe wiring practice in the 30s. Does anyone know whether solid-conductor wire was ever used in wiring harnesses? (I am referring to gauges from around 18 to 30.) Seems at first glance that stranded conductor would have been preferred due to less breakage under strain and vibration. What type insulation was used? Probably cloth covered, but was it multilayer, as in scc or dcc type? ("Single cotton covered" or "double cotton covered") I have seen a/c wire samples from the 40s which are, universally, stranded; and the cloth insulation may have a cotton "filament" running the length of the wire, separate from the jacket, wrapped around the conductor... this could often get in the way of soldering operations if not carefully stripped. These samples are usually cotton (?) insulated with a woven outer jacket, which may be a solid color (usually white) or marked in some way, perhaps with a color tracer thread. The scc and dcc wire I referred to earlier was, I know, common in radio construction. Many specs for "home brew" radio projects of the time called for coils to be wound with scc or dcc wire, and it was also used for hookup wire before plastic-insulated products came along... but, was this stuff ever used in aircraft wiring? LTM (who wraps everything real securely to keep bugs out) and 73 Mike E. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:55:46 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: W40K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg > >From Ric > > "Rock Springs" is Dana Randolph, a 16 year old "amateur radio fan" with an > "inexpensive commercial set". He ain't relaying nothin' to nobody. Dana is > also an African-American in a town that has a black population of .01 > percent. The fact that he was investigated and that the authorities agreed > that the message he heard was "thought to be from KHAQQ" indicates to me that > his report is highly credible. > > So far in my plotting of reported post-loss signals I can tell you that at > the time Dana is reported to have heard what he heard (15:00Z on July 4), > Coast Guard San Francisco is hearing nothing on 3105 but within 15 minutes > (at 15:15Z) Pan Am Mokapu in Hawaii takes a "doubtful" bearing of 213 degrees > on a rough carrier on 3105. A 213 degree bearing from Mokapu passes very > close to Gardner Island. The reported time of Dana's signal is fairly shaky > (a Honolulu Star Bulletin article that has his name as Charles and his age as > 12) so it may be that PAA and Dana are hearing the same transmission except > that PAA is hearing the badly degraded primary frequency while Dana is > hearing intelligible voice on a harmonic. Your mentioning the shaky 213 degree bearing reminds me that some time ago I looked into that case, using large scale topographic charts. I was curious because the Mokapu site is on the northeast side of the Koolau mountain range that runs parallel to the northeast shore of Oahu. In particular, I was wondering if the mountains could affect the bearing accuracy. They would if the signal arrival angle was low enough, but not if it was high enough so that Mokapu wasn't in the RF shadow of the mountains. The vertical arrival angle of that signal from Gardner was about 1 degree. But the optical angle from Mokapu to the ridge crest, on the bearing of Gardner, is about 6 degrees. So it seems clear that the signal heard at Mokapu was "spilling" over the Koolau ridge enroute to Mokapu. The geometry of the path and the ridge alignment is such that a signal arriving at an angle below the optical horizon of Mokapu would be skewed clockwise as it spills over the ridge, and also would be substantially dissipated. That could account for the "shaky" character of the bearing. It's worth noting that the signal heard by Mokapu on 213 degrees could have originated from a source on a more southerly bearing - - not necessarily from a land source, perhaps a commercial aircraft operating between Oahu and Hawaii, or other islands to the south of Oahu. This doesn't mean it couldn't have originated at Gardner - - just something to keep in mind when evaluating possibilities. And, before anyone asks - - no, I haven't been withholding information. The 213 bearing issue wasn't salient at the time, and so I just didn't mention it. Given the recent new line of inquiry, it seemed pertinent to mention it now. LTM, Bob #2286 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:05:58 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Star(?) Witness/ Lt.Lambrecht MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Bright Ric, I'll bat cleanup. Lt Lambrecht's flight on 9 Jul over Niku has been well documented.Weather clear,visibility excellent, could see a life raft at "5 miles", tramp steamer broken in two, etc.But a few questions remain. It is almost inconceivable that GP or the Navy Department would not have initated an additional explanation and interview with Lt Lambrecht and his observer after reading that "signs of recent habitation" were clearly observed on Niku (place not described) just 7 days after Amelia's loss- a place where not only GP but many other knowledgeable officials thought she might have ended up. And a place that may have been transmitting post loss signals that Lt. Lambrecht would have been informed.. Lt Lambrecht clearly differentiated "previous habitation" seen earlier that day at McKean with the "recent" habitation signs at Niku. He zoomed and circled but "took it for granted" that noone was there. (Tighar's argues he missed her and the plane) It sounds like everyone just took his report of 16 July for face value and never pursued a better explanation. Questions: 1. Was Lambrecht ever reinterviewed sometime later re his definition,location and description of "signs"? (Sort of ala Bevington) Any record thereof. 2. Since Lambrecht is deceased has anyone ever pursued his relatiaves for any "oral history", dairy, memoirs, writings, etc., re his observation on Niku that fateful day of 9 July 1937. It may be that his possible "oversight" haunted him down the line. "Signs of recent habitation" and "bivouacked" must be the most ambiguous words in the English language; E.B. White would roll over in his grave. LTM, Ron Bright *************************************************************************** From Ric We talk about Lambrecht's "report" but it wasn't a report. It was an article written for the weekly newsletter of the Navy's Bureau of Aeronautics and only other naval aviators probably ever saw it. The official report of the aerial search was written by the Colorado's captain, Wilhelm Friedel, who said that no signs of habitation were seen on Gardner (directly contradicting the guy who was actually there). Goerner interviewed Lambrecht sometime in the late '60s, early '70s and said, in a letter to me, that when questioned about what he had seen on Gardner he said only that he had seen "markers of some kind." Second-hand anecdote, but it's all that we have. I spoke with Lambrecht's daughter at a U.S. Naval Institute seminar on the Earhart disappearance several years ago. She had nothing to add to the story. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:14:52 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: W40K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Warren Lambing Bob And Ric If Betty's heard AE and W40K on July 5, and Dana heard AE on July 4, in Rock Springs Wyoming, and Pan Am Mokapu in Hawaii here it's with in 15 minute on the same day, is there a GC between Rock Springs Wyoming Pan Am Mokapu in Hawaii and Niku? I don't if it means anything, but it might be of interest to see if there is a pattern. Also Dana is hearing at 1500Z and Pan Am Mokapu in Hawaii at 1515z, does that put Niku in the dark at that time? Regards. Warren Lambing *************************************************************************** From Ric Betty doesn't enter into this picture. Betty's event occurred between 21:30 and 21:45 GMT on an unknown day. Dana's event occurred around 15:00 GMT on July 4. The PAA Mokapu bearing was taken between 15:15 and 15:30 on July 4. The local time at Gardner during this period was 03:00 to 03:30. Yes, it was dark. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:15:36 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Navigation discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson The radiotelegram about Nauru's lights had a typo in it: 5600 feet, which was really 560 feet height. The Sailing Directions and topographic maps of Nauru bear out the correct 560 foot height. This incident should remind all of us that you can't always believe what you read, even if it is an original source. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:18:05 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Fred, aren't we overdue? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson Ric asked: >>Is that 27.9 at 2300Z a typo? I assume that these numbers are for observations taken at the surface.<< I don't believe that is a typo, as that is getting close to noon. The point of all this is that the LOP changes very little in the first few hours of dawn, then changes rapidly to near zero at local noon, where it changes slowly once again. Yes, these are for sea level. 1000 foot elevation changes the time of these fixes by about 8 minutes, IIRC. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:43:30 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: DQ Book Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bill Conover Ric; Data Quality has placed it's review of the Long's book on-line at: http://www.dataquality.com/999bkrv1.htm I find it rather impolite of James Hurysz to have not credited TIGAR in his rather short list of reference citations, given the volume of postings generated by both he and Ms Whitney under the DQ moniker. Especially since his summary of "data quality", or lack thereof, in the book refers to a number of items about which DQ posted questions, and received from this forum, quality information as answers. It's also amusing to me that DQ has seen fit to misrepresent the review as having been done in Sept. 1999. Hardly a quality fact. Guess that might just define a lot of things. LTM, Bill Conover #2377 *************************************************************************** From Ric Hurysz' review is little more than a boring recitation of the basic information presented in Long's book - and he can't even get that right. Factual errors abound, and in the end he (rightly) criticizes the Long's for poor "data qulaity". It's fine with me that he doesn't acknowledge TIGHAR's contribution to his research. He apparently wasn't listening anyway. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:44:49 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Antenna and propagation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Vern >>From Bob Brandenburg >The fuselage of the Electra was the ground for the dorsal vee antenna and, >being aluminum, was close to a perfect conductor. So the antenna had a virtually >ideal ground whether airborne or on the ground. And it was a pretty funny shaped ground plane, wasn't it? The fuselage was pretty much under the part of the antenna near the apex of the "V" and very close. Further toward the tail, the fuselage is below and to the side of either leg of the "V" and still quite close but gradually getting more distant. Who knows where the maximum current was in that strange shaped antenna for the fundamental frequency let alone possible harmonic frequencies? Do we have any idea what the radiation pattern of such an antenna arrangement might be other than it would be pretty high angle radiation? That sort of "V" configuratione was used a lot on airplanes. The radiation pattern must have been measured at some time. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:49:30 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Cold on Niku? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ross Devitt > >From Bill Moffet >In July "cold weather" doesn't make much > sense on an Equatorial island--nor even 25 miles north of Utica, but a "bad > cold" might. If Bill is referring to a radio call suggesting that Earhart/Noonan may have been experiencing "cold weather" in July at Gardner I'd like to suggest that they may have been. In my part of the tropics the temperature is around 80 degrees summer and winter. What happens is that in the middle of the year (the nearest we get to winter) the sun shines most days, but is not as hot as later in the year. Around Christmas, the sun is extremely hot, but cloud cover gives us a bit of shade. This is the time when we get major tropical storms. On the odd days with no clouds, we know it (gets to over 100deg). In July at night the temp does actually drop. One or two degrees is very noticeable, and if the temperature dropped to 75 or worse, 70deg after a few days around 80+ and near water, believe me they'd be cold. Even a breeze and some cloud in the daytime can feel quite cold at 75deg if it comes in suddenly. It is 86deg in here at the moment. If I run my airconditioner for a couple of hours it will drop to 82, and it would feel chilly after the heat of the day. Th' WOMBAT. *************************************************************************** From Ric AE and FN did not live in the tropics and 70 degrees is not cold. I've been chilly on Niku but only in a drenching rain with lots of wind. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:52:55 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Fred, aren't we overdue? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom MM Ric: 1745Z 66.9* 1800Z 67.0* 1830Z 66.8* 1900Z 66.2* 1930Z 65.2* 2000Z 63.7* 2300Z 27.9* Randy's time/azimuth data are correct. By 2300Z the sun's azimuth is shifting rapidly toward the north. Computed data such as these are from a geocentric perspective. Sights have corrections applied to them (refraction and parallax) to correct to geocentric for comparison using the altitude-intercept method (to an accuracy sufficient for navigation). TOM MM ************************************************************************* From Ric That rapid shift around local noon is really impressive. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:56:34 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Celestial Choir MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom MM (re: Doug Brutlag's project) Hmmm, this is a very interesting idea, but from another viewpoint I can't help but think that we should wait for the complete 8th Edition before attempting much. We don't exactly know what we'll see in the 8th Ed, but this might all be covered satisfactorily - in addition, the Choir acting alone will not have other info such as fuel management, weather data, radio propagation, or other supporting data which may have bearing on the overall nav problem. Once the 8th Edition is out, the Choir could tier off of much of that information with further analyses (if deemed worthwhile). We've got the Essential Conditions to check . Actually, although I'm pretty neutral in the Niku vs crashed at sea vs landed on some other island/reef debate, I'm certain that TIGHAR can put together a good navigational case for Niku. As fun as it is, the navigation does not seem to be the critical sticking point when looking at various alternatives. Doug, any of this make sense? Ric, any projected publication date for the complete edition? I realize that this is probably an unfair question considering the amount of volunteer labor involved, but I'll ask anyway. TOM MM *************************************************************************** From Ric I can't predict the completion date for the whole thing, but the navigation section (written by Randy Jacobson) will be the next segment mounted, probably within a week aor so. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:38:21 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: All Ashore FollowUp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Steve G, Dear Ric, First, I'd like to apologize for inadvertently creating an eyesore on the Forum. I'd composed the original posting on this subject over a few days using MS Word, then did a copy-and-paste to an e-mail. When I opened the next EARHARTFORUM digest, I was horrified to see all the inserted codes (=20, =92, =93, etc.), which make the posts extremely difficult to read (and *I* was complaining about MEGO!). Thanks for your explanatory comments about the expeditions. It was your response to someone else's inquiry months ago that first interested me on this topic: namely, that of how you allocate the fixed resources of an expedition in deciding what to do and what not to do. Both you and Dr. Tom King alluded to the poor weather on the '97 expedition. I checked out the Website details of that visit ("Hell & High Water") but didn't see mention of the 4 team members staying overnight. How did that come about and was it in fact impossible to retrieve these team members from the island? In postings long ago, the habits of the native wildlife were discussed, specifically, their ability to carry off pieces of carrion, bones, etc. When Dr. King and the others were spending those unplanned nights ashore (are they thus qualified as "castaways"? - if so, time for a new T-shirt slogan!), did they have any problems with nocturnal visits from the creepy-crawlies? I also have a few more questions about expedition basics: When the team arrives ashore on a typical morning, and the workgroups head off in different directions, do the groups keep in contact via some sort of radio, or is there only a pre-arranged regrouping time? I'm guessing that to minimize the ship-to-shore transport of supplies, lunch is the only meal typically enjoyed on terra firma. Is the practice to meet somewhere on the island for a team feast, or does each group just break at it's own convenience? When the team arrives ashore on a typical morning, and the workgroups head off in different directions, do the groups keep in con tact via some sort of radio, or is there only a pre-arranged regrouping time? How many deployable boats does the Naia carry? If just one, I can imagine that it's care and well-being is high on everyone's nightly prayers. If there's more than one, are they of different sizes? Are they Zodiac-type inflatables or are they wood/fiberglass hard-shelled boats? I recollect seeing an old Jacques Cousteau clip (who knows, maybe it was Sea Hunt or Flipper) in which a boat - not the Calypso - towed divers underwater, who used a kind of flipperboard apparatus to steer themselves, in an attempt to search a large, relatively shallow area. Given the desire to search underwater areas at Niku, does this approach sound feasible, or would it simply provide an entertaining twist for the local sharks in obtaining their daily meal? Niku III wasn't able to use the ultralight because of bad weather. Was it even taken off the ship, and if so, how difficult was that? Do you intend to try to use it again on Niku IIII? LTM (who promises shorter posts in the future) Steve G., Tighar # something or other *************************************************************************** From Ric >>How did 4 team members staying overnight come about and was it in fact impossible to retrieve these team members from the island?<< Nai'a's crew had catered a special dinner on the beach (the only time that happened) and had brought ashore all kinds of food that had been prepared aboard ship. There were lots of left overs. As we were getting ready to return to the ship we received word that the weather forecast for the next day was for significantly higher seas, and since it was already a near-death experience just getting on and off the island, I was resigned to losing a day or so riding out the worst of the weather aboard ship. It was at that point that 4 team members approached me with the prospect of staying on the island, using the left-overs from the dinner as provisions. The up-side was that some work would get done despite the bad weather. The down-side was that if I left people ashore we were committing ourselves to staying on station at Niku no matter how bad the weather got - and nobody knew how bad it would get. We were, in effect, gambling that it would improve enough to let us get them off. I decided to take the gamble but I didn't like it. In the end, it worked out okay. The next day was bad but the day after was better and we were able to resume normal operations. The "castaways" got some work done and very much enjoyed their two-night stay on the island, but ironically the people at risk were the ones on the ship. If I had it to do over again - with similar weather considerations - I would turn down the request. The little bit of additional work that got done was not worth the risk to the expedition. Letting people stay ashore in good, stable weather however is a different situation. >> did they have any problems with nocturnal visits from the creepy-crawlies?<< I'm sure Tom King will be happy to answer that. >>When the team arrives ashore on a typical morning, and the workgroups head off in different directions, do the groups keep in contact via some sort of radio, or is there only a pre-arranged regrouping time?<< We do keep in contact by radio but we don't generally regroup for lunch unless we're all working close by anyway. If one group will be on a different part of the island they take their lunch with them. >>When the team arrives ashore on a typical morning, and the workgroups head off in different directions, do the groups keep in contact via some sort of radio, or is there only a pre-arranged regrouping time?<< No cooking, and MRE stands for Meals Rejected by Etheopians. Nai'a makes up sandwiches and fruit and bags of chips and such. It's generally brought ashore in a big cooler with some bottles of frozen water to help keep everything cool until lunchtime. The thawed but still-cold water is also welcome. >>How many deployable boats does the Naia carry? << Usually she carries two "Naiads" which have rigid alumiun hulls and inflatable sides - best of both worlds. There's a big one and a little one ( I forget the exact lengths). We base the big one in the lagoon and use the little one to ferry to and from shore. >> who used a kind of flipperboard apparatus to steer themselves,<< Manta-boards. We used them to search part of the lagoon in '97. Plan to use them again, towed behind a launch. The ultra-light aircraft was never even completely asembled in '97. It became obvious that the weather was far too bad to use it. Our research has now progressed to the point that we have no real need for aerial observation or searching. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:41:44 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Mokapu antenna location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson For Bob Brandenburg: When I examined a 1937 map of Oahu, the Makapuu antenna was located at a southwest facing mountain range, and was at its highest point. I don't believe there was a mountain range intervening with Gardner. Are you sure about its location? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:19:07 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re W40K - new development MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric We have an interesting development in the saga of Betty's notebook. You'll recall that among the first notations Betty made was: "W40K Howland port or WOJ Howland port" WOJ proved to be nothing, but W40K sounded like it might be a HAM call sign. Janet Whitney dug out the information that, in 1937, W40K was the call sign assigned to Francis G. Carroll of Fort Worth, Florida. Betty has never heard of Francis G. Carroll. Why was his call sign in her notebook as something that had been said by Amelia Earhart, if indeed that is what she had said? The fact that Mr. Carroll, like Betty, lived in Florida seemed like an odd coincidence so Bob Brandenburg did some checking. He found that a Great Circle from Gardner Island to St. Petersburg, if extended, also passes through Lake Worth (and nearby Palm Beach where, it turns out, Mr. Carroll actually lived in July 1937). In other words, if Betty could hear signals it is also likely that Mr. Carroll could (theoretically) hear signals, but Carroll - unlike Betty - could also transmit and (again theoretically) establish two way communication. If that had happened it could explain why Earhart had said his call sign. Harry Poole did some checking and found that, wouldn't you know it?, both Francis and his wife Leona died just this year and had been living in the Ft. Pierce area. TIGHAR member Terry Linley (who also happens to be my cousin) lives in Ft. Pierce and volunteered to try to find the only surviving child, Nancy. Her search was quickly successful and she discovered that Nancy Carroll, a retired Marine Corps major, lives just down the road. Francis Carroll had worked for a local radio staion and was an avid HAM. Nancy couldn't recall her father ever mentioning Amelia Earhart but Nancy's housemate "Smitty" (also a retired Marine) recalled that some years ago (between 1987 and 1992) while watching a television documentary about Amelia Earhart, Nancy's father had remarked " "I talked to her; I wondered what happened". Nancy didn't hear the comment and Smitty dismissed it as an old man's ramblings. Nancy feels quite sure that she has her father's HAM logs somewhere among his personal belongings and is now eager to help us verify whether or not her father may have, in fact, "worked" Amelia Earhart after she disappeared. Of course, a thousand questions come to mind about what may have happened and why nothing was ever done about it - but let's take it one step at a time. Terry is working with Nancy to locate the logs. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:27:56 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Manta boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Frank Westlake > From Ric > Manta-boards. We used them to search part of the lagoon in '97. > Plan to use them again, towed behind a launch. I wouldn't recommend it, not while breathing compressed air anyway. The danger of arterial gas-embolism is too great and you are too far from a recompression chamber. It's deadly, especially in less than one atmosphere of pressure. If it is necessary to tow a diver on SCUBA, the speed of the towing vessel should be less than the swimming speed of the diver. At such a slow speed it will be much more difficult for the diver to inadvertently bounce up. But I still don't recommend towing a diver on SCUBA. On snorkel there would be no danger of embolism. Frank Westlake ************************************************************************** From Ric We're not talking great depth (about 20 feet) or great speed here. The visibility on the lagoon bottom is sucko and you don't want to get towed into a coral head. We're using the boards primarily to save the divers the exertion of self propulsion. But I'm not a diver. Any comments from experienced divers? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:26:03 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Bud MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bruce Yoho If I had a first name like Mr. Carrol had, I more than likely would have a nick name "Bud," should we ask the daughter this question. I do think your use of the ultra lite can be of service low level picture mapping of the island, for any further study, after returning home. Seems the forum grasps at any photo of Gardner they can get their hands on. LTM(who loves pictures) Bruce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:29:24 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Manta boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Frank Westlake > From Ric > We're not talking great depth (about 20 feet) or great speed here. That's where the greatest danger is, the danger increases near the surface. > But I'm not a diver. Any comments from experienced divers? Sure. I agree with Frank. My experience is that of a Navy EOD diver. We would tow swimmers on snorkel, but never divers on SCUBA. If I remember correctly, most arterial gas embolism (AGE) cases experience death within the first ten minutes after surfacing. Many are dead before reaching the surface. In EOD, because of the type of work we do (did, I'm retired), we have the greatest number of AGE victims. And a particular unit I was in was at the top of the list. We had a chamber that was only 10 minutes away so we were fortunate to not have had any deaths though. An experienced diver can be safely towed, but the danger still exists that the diver will become preoccupied and inadvertently ascend without exhaling. It only takes one or two feet in some cases. AGE needs to be treated IMMEDIATELY by recompression to 60 feet. It used to be 165 feet and some chambers may still use those old procedures. How long will it take you to get a diver to a chamber? Rhetorical, I'm sure it is much too long. If you were doing this off the coast of a civilized area I would not be as concerned. Frank Westlake ***************************************************************************Fro m Ric Hmmm. I'm glad this came up (no pun intended). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:30:11 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Mokapu antenna location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg For Randy Jacobson: If the PAA site was at Makapuu Point, that would indeed be at the southeasternmost tip of Oahu, at the end of the Koolau range. If you are sure the antenna was there, and not at Mokapu, then I stand corrected. I was relying on the official message traffic, in which the PAA site is consistently cited as being at Mokapu, which is up the east coast of Oahu a ways, at Kaneohe Bay. I assumed that the antenna was also at Mokapu. It's not clear why the PAA people would be at Mokapu, as they said in their reports, if the antenna was at Makapuu. Is it possible that the PAA people didn't know the difference between the two sites and their spellings? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:38:43 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: All Ashore FollowUp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King Ric, I don't want to be difficult, but -- hmm, how to put this diplomatically? Your version of our overnighter on Niku bears virtually no resemblance to my recollections. As far as I can recall, there was never any prospect that Nai'a would have to flee wildly before the storm, therefore putting those aboard at risk if she had to wait around for us; the only prospect was of a day or two lost work. We actually got quite a bit of work done in the time we were ashore, and just incidentally saved the GPS base station -- worth what, $40K or so? -- from being washed away, along with a fair amount of equipment on the lagoon shore. We observed conditions on the island that couldn't otherwise have been observed, and that improves our perspectives on the dynamics of the place. At the time you agreed to our remaining ashore, I was very pleased at what I thought was a dawn of collegiality -- a recognition that we are your adult, somewhat competent, colleagues, not 12-year old cub scouts who have to be kept in order lest we hurt ourselves. I'm sorry to see that I was in error. As for creepy-crawlies, there were juvenile coconut crabs that rattled about all night in the pile of aluminum cans left over from the party. Since they were in their hermit phase, we wondered if any of them would trade their shells for Fiji Beer cans, but alas, none did. Once it got dark I went back and sat quietly in the midst of the village to see what it felt like -- and it certainly did FEEL creepy-crawly, but I can't say that anything tangible assaulted me. Nevertheless I beat a hasty retreat back to the fire. *************************************************************************** From Ric As is - no doubt - abundantly clear to all, you and I have very different approaches to the conduct of expeditions. That will have to be resolved before we get on another boat together but this is not the place to do it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:38:40 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Book Review of Longs' Earhart Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From Janet Whitney I did the research for the book review. It's a book review, not a book. In=20 the end, we decided there wasn't enough information about Earhart and=20 Noonan's disappearance to draw any conclusions. We qualified much of the=20 Longs' information with the statement: "according to the Longs." We used=20 "The Sound of Wings" as a primary source of information, since this book=20 seems to be a respected source. I did a lot of "extra" research for my own=20 knowledge. For example, I read much of Margaret Mead's published=20 anthropological reaseach from her years in the South Pacific...and also some= =20 later criticism of her research. Our conclusion was that we couldn't draw an= y=20 conclusions. What's wrong with that? What did TIGHAR want us to say? "Yabba=20 dabba doo...Let's find Earhart on Gardner in 2002?" If so, we're sorry to=20 disappoint you. Janet Whitney *************************************************************************** From Ric "We used 'The Sound of Wings' as a primary source of information,.." Well, when you use a secondary source as a primary source you can expect=20 trouble. I have no problem with the conclusions you didn't draw. What disappointed m= e=20 were things like: "...the Longs follow Amelia Earhart from her purchase of a Lockheed Electra=20 for "research purposes" late in 1935, ..." The Longs don't say Earhart purchased the airplane in 1935 and, in fact, the= =20 order wasn't placed until March 20, 1936. "A third ship, the Coast Guard cutter Swan, was stationed between Howland an= d=20 Oahu" The Longs know that USS Swan was a Navy seaplane tender. "Coast Guard time on the Itasca at Howland Island was 1 hour behind Honolulu= =20 time and 12 1/2 hours behind GMT. " The first two were picky. This one is not. Zone time for the Itasca was=20 Greenwich minus 11.5 hours. The Longs know that too. "Amphibious scout planes from the battleship U.S.S. Colorado searched the=20 Phoenix Islands between July 7th and July 12th, ...". The Longs know that an amphibious aircraft is one that can land on either=20 land or water and that the Colorado's aircraft were float planes that could=20 only alight on water. They also accurately describe the search of the=20 Phoenix Group as commencing on July 9th. Shall I go on? And by the way, if your statement that: "A sister-ship of the Lockheed Model 10-E Electra that Amelia Earhart flew i= n=20 1936 and 1937 is now hangered at the Western Aerospace Museum. This restored= =20 Lockheed 10E was flown around-the-world=A0by Linda Finch in 1997 in a 60th=20 anniversary commemoration." is true it must be a very recent addition to the museum. As of about two=20 weeks ago the only Lockheed 10 at the museum was the 10A that has been there= =20 for years. Last I heard, Finch's bogus 10E was still in Texas. And not to=20 be picky, but the thing in your closet is a hanger. Airplanes are kept in=20 hangars. At least Jim kept your name off the review. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:47:41 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Star(?) Witness/ Lt.Lambrecht MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Bright Ric, What would "markers of some kind" be in July 1937? Survey stuff??? Ron Bright ************************************************************************** From Ric From what survey? The New Zealand survey was the first one done and that wasn't until December 1938. HMS Leith was there for about 20 minutes on February 15, 1937 - just long enough for a boat crew to put up a flagpole with a Union Jack and a placard proclaiming the island to be the property of His Majesty. They did the same thing at other islands in the Phoenix and when Lambrecht sees flagpoles that what he calls them. One thing we can say with certainty is that whatever Lambrecht saw did not cause him to think it might be a sign that AE and Fred were there. The other thing we know for sure is that there was a castaway on the island in the years before 1940. "Signs of recent habitation?" You betcha. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:53:40 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Antenna and propagation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Cam Warren Vern & Bob B. - I'm on the road, and hence away from my files, but Paul Rafford did a complete analysis of the radiation patterns on both 3105 and 6210, and even built a scale model of the Electra to verify his findings. This was done some years ago, and I believe Paul's report is in the NASM library. It included detailed information on skip zones and harmonic behavior as well. Paul recently surfaced on the Net, but I don't have his e-mail address at hand. (He does live in Florida). Cam Warren ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:54:31 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Manta boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dave Givens I'm a Dive Rescue/Recovery Unit Leader for a County Sheriff's Department here in California and we do not tow divers as a rule. We do have some instances of towing Divers in the California Aqueduct but again it is only sometimes. It is simply to easy to get hurt doing this as some other postings have described better than I. And you are going to be a long ways from help. -Dave Givens ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:55:37 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Book Review of Longs' Earhart Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom King OK, Janet, I'll bite. What does Margaret Mead's research have to do with Earhart? LTM (who wishes she were as formidible as MM) TKing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:03:03 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: W4OK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Everette Here is a question to put on the Forum. There was some discussion of this matter about a year ago... the probability that AE had organized some kind of backup communications plan, which included hams. I think someone, maybe Cam Warren or Bill Moffett, came up with a list of call signs. I thought I had saved this, but cannot find it. Would be interesting if W4OK showed up on this. If someone has copies of "Radio" magazine from 1936-37 (I do not have access to this) they should search within these for any articles on AE and hams. "QST" magazine from the era does not appear to have any such references, but I do have access to these files and will check again. I can also check "Radio News" from the period (but this is not principally a ham radio publication). Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:59:44 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Yellow signal kite? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ric; In re-reading the N.Y Times article of July 3, 1937, there is a quote attributed to GP that goes: "There was a two-man rubber lifeboat aboard the plane, together with lifebelts, flares, a Very pistol and a large yellow signal kit which could be flown above the plane or the liferaft." I wonder if the "large yellow signal kit" was meant to be kit(e) ? Obviously he would not know if it was still on the plane after Lae, but it does seem that for the 2nd attempt there may very well have been some type of item that could be flown as a distress signal placed aboard. We already know that she had the box kite with her for the first attempt. There just might be something to this kite business. LTM, Bill Conover #2377 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:04:50 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re W40K - new development MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dean A. 2056 Just thinking out loud; if Earhart couldn't receive Howland/Itaska because of receiver/antenna problems and she was in the air fairly close to them, then how could she receive a ham from Fla.. ************************************************************************** From Ric I don,t know, but that's not the first question we must ask. The first question is, "Is there compelling evidence that she did receive signals?" and that's where the analysis of the entire body of alleged post-loss transmissions may be instructive. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:09:30 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Antenna and propagation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg For Vern: > >>From Bob Brandenburg > >The fuselage of the Electra was the ground for the dorsal vee antenna and, > >being aluminum, was close to a perfect conductor. So the antenna had a > virtually > >ideal ground whether airborne or on the ground. > > And it was a pretty funny shaped ground plane, wasn't it? The fuselage was > pretty much under the part of the antenna near the apex of the "V" and very > close. Further toward the tail, the fuselage is below and to the side of > either leg of the "V" and still quite close but gradually getting more > distant. > It surely was a funny shaped ground plane, and you have accurately described the situation. But it's not the shape of the ground plane that matters, only the distance from the antenna to the ground plane. > Who knows where the maximum current was in that strange shaped antenna for > the fundamental frequency let alone possible harmonic frequencies? The location of maximum current on the antenna, in and of itself, is not us eful for evaluating the antenna. The key thing to know is the shape of the antenna radiation pattern, which includes its gain at any given azimuth and elevation angle. The antenna model I use (see the 8th Edition) does a nice job of computing the 3-dimensional gain pattern for any antenna. The model does, however, assume a flat ground plane. To accommodate the model, I measured (using TIGHAR scale drawings) the 3-D distance from the antenna wire to the closest point on the fuselage at 2-foot intervals along the longitudinal axis of the airplane and computed the root-mean-square value over all distances, which I then used as antenna virtual height over a plane ground in the model. To check on the reasonableness of the resultant gain pattern calculations, I ran a second set of model computations in which I defined the antenna as a set of connected discrete wire segments where the endpoint heights of each segment were the corresponding 3-D distances from the fuselage surface. The resultant gain pattern computed by the model was not significantly different from that obtained in the first set of runs. Since the model gave me essentially the same results in both cases, I opted to stay with the simpler antenna characterization. > Do we > have any idea what the radiation pattern of such an antenna arrangement > might be other than it would be pretty high angle radiation? Yes. We have a complete 3-dimensional radiation pattern for the antenna at any frequency of interest - - I'm running the harmonic cases now - - at 1-degree resolution in azimuth and elevation. Actually, the radiation angle of interest in any given case is the launch angle for the ray bundle that propagates along the ionospheric path to the receiver. For example, in the case of the Betty intercept, the launch angle for a signal from Niku to St. Petersburg is about one degree. But at harmonic frequencies above 10 MHz, the launch angle is in the range of 10 to 15 degrees, depending on frequency. The propagation model (see the 8th Edition) uses the appropriate transmitter antenna gain for each case. > That sort of > "V" configuratione was used a lot on airplanes. The radiation pattern must > have been measured at some time. It has indeed. There was some in-flight work done on a very similar vee configuration in 1938, to measure radiation resistance (see the 8th edition), which I have used to derive the radiation resistance of Earhart's vee, so I could get to the radiation efficiency of the antenna. I'm not aware of any measurements of the radiation pattern. Bob #2286 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:12:38 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: W4OK Questions Addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194: Another possibility for mention of AE and hams might possibly be found in yet another ham publication of the era, "R/9" Magazine... but "R/9" and "Radio" Magazines merged some time in 1936. I don't have access to any files of "R/9" either... can someone help? If somebody else wants to take a look at "QST" Magazine from the period, I rather suspect that any mention of AE would be found in a little column called "Strays." These things are not indexed and will have to be read one at a time. Another long shot possibility for finding mention in "QST" is within the "How's DX?" columns, which will have to be read as well, no index. Yet another possible mention might be seen among the editorials "It Seems to Us..." I have looked through most of the QSTs from 1935-1938 but could easily have missed something; they deserve another look and several pairs of eyes are better than one. I do not recall seeing any feature article on AE in QST. My feeling is that "Radio" and/or "R/9" will yield something. Just gotta find the files. LTM (who'd rather read the mags than get nauseated looking at microfilm) and 73 Mike E. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:16:18 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: W40K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg > >From Warren Lambing > If Betty's heard AE and W40K on July 5, and Dana heard AE on July 4, in Rock >Springs Wyoming, and Pan Am Mokapu in Hawaii here it's with in 15 > minute on the same day, is there a GC between Rock Springs Wyoming Pan Am > Mokapu in Hawaii and Niku? I don't if it means anything, but it might be of > interest to see if there is a pattern. Also Dana is hearing at 1500Z and > Pan Am Mokapu in Hawaii at 1515z, does that put Niku in the dark at that > time? > > Regards. > > Warren Lambing Unfortunately, there's no common great circle through those three places. The GC bearing from Niku to Rock Springs is 044.7 degrees, and from Niku to Mokapu it's 031.6 degrees. Best, Bob #2286 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:21:11 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Star(?) Witness/ Lt.Lambrecht MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Holt > One thing we can say with certainty is that whatever Lambrecht saw did not > cause him to think it might be a sign that AE and Fred were there. The other > thing we know for sure is that there was a castaway on the island in the > years before 1940. "Signs of recent habitation?" You betcha. Did I miss something, or was there another person recognized to have been trapped on Gardner? Are you talking about AE and FN? *************************************************************************** From Ric We know there was a castaway. We don't know for sure (yet) who it was. There was no other person known to have been marooned on Gardner. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:22:48 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Markers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Dave Bush Do we know if or how the supply cache left after the Norwich City rescue was marked? LTM, Dave Bush #2200 ************************************************************************* From Ric No. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:26:31 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: ham network? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From David Evans Katz It is my recollection (from one of the myriad Earhart biographies) that she had arranged a network of ham operators to assist with communications with the first attempt at the World Flight, but that she had abandoned this network for the second attempt. I don't know if I am remembering this correctly, but I will check some of these (secondary) sources. Perhaps Ric knows the correct information off the top of his head. David Evans Katz ***************************************************************************Fro m Ric Nope. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:28:22 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: DQ Book Review of Longs' Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Janet Whitney I did the research for the book review. I don't have a background in aviation. In fact, it's been several years since I've flown on a commercial airline. I don't remember ever posting anything significant about airframe and powerplant matters on the TIGHAR listserver. I did comment about the illusion that the Electra's pitot tubes *appear* to not be parallel to the Electra's fuselage when the plane is taking off. I will correct what's "wrong" in the book review. It was written by someone who is VERY busy right now. The ISO 9000-2000 international quality standards are about to be released. The review was based on my research, but I didn't write it. FYI, papers (and some book reviews) are published in Data Quality as they come back from the reviewers. That may take over a year. Janet Whitney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:31:57 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Mokapu antenna location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson Oh my God! I never realized there were two different places, and two different spellings. This really confuses things, doesn't it? I've seen both referenced in the documentation, and never really thought anything of it. The antenna site I found was at the southeasternmost tip of Oahu. If Makapu is a city in and around Kaneohe Bay, at nearer to sea level, then I suspect my position of the antenna is more correct, but I won't bet mine or Ric's life on it at this point. *************************************************************************** From Ric The Pan Am station was at MOKAPU (according to their memos). (There's a great line from Apocalypse Now that seems appropriate here but it's too politically incorrect to quote.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:45:59 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: A million thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Pete (edited by Ric) to Ric and the entire Forum: Thanks to all of you! Before the Forum: my average 2.6, currently 3.8! Mike E has discussed propagation with me, K Spalding has been happy to talk tides with me, Cam and Janet have given me things to think about, and I know I've missed other credits but I thank you all! BTW, the Niku LTM was to be restricted to 80 pounds, with the pallet (normally 20 pounds, and the packing to survive the trip to Samoa) is where the 200 pound limit came in. It survives only as a design exercise for a CADD student in my Sociology class. ... I saw the actual air photo of Niku on the TIGHAR site, them saw for myself what factors would be up against to emplace the thing outside the reef, and how far tow it into the channel to get it into the lagoon. Time is not on the side of Niku IIII everyone, I'll foster crazy ideas and see what I can do, but Ric has the last call on all this. Remember, a camel is a horse made by a committee. Ric, If it is alright with you, I already know I must give yet another Presentation to the whole class (two down, two to go), but in Quarter 8 I'm alone when I do it, may I have my presentation be on how to mount an expedition in modern times? To those lucky enough to be there, despite what Niku will hand to you, keep in mind that you are personally on-site searching for Amelia Earhardt and Fred Noonan and can solve a very old mystery, and say right after to the world, and decades later to your grandchildren, "I helped find her". Once again, I thank you ALL! Thank you for your patience, your indulgence, your understanding, and your commitment. I myself can do little for Niku IIII, but let me get a chance if Niku 5 is needed! Pete (who really is working on not getting so wordy) ***************************************************************************** From Ric Pete, you don't need permission to do a presentation on how to mount an expedition in modern times. I will, however, give you a hint. It hasn't changed since ancient times. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:49:06 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Flares or meteors? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ricj Seapin Hello Ric/Forum: Regarding the New York Times newspaper article, dated July 6, 1937, the Itasca reported seeing flares. Later they reported they saw meteors. I have seen hundreds of meteors, and they hit the earth's atmosphere at least at 17,000 mph, how can you mistake the two, who made the final call? ************************************************************************* From Ric That's not clear from the message traffic but the senior officer aboard Itasca was her captain, Warner Thompson. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:50:25 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: HAMS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ron Bright Ric. Dick Strippel ,commenting on the fate of Howland Island after July 37, said that "ironically,amateur radio operators,seeking to transmit to thier colleagues from ...remote places,set up " DX-peditions" to Howland, and the first was in 1938,less than a year after her disappearance. For the Ham researchers with access to 1937 articles,etc, it would seem that the results of their experiments with Ham equipment and receivers from Howland to the United States should be documented somewhere. It would be a newsy event and may have yielded some radio results pertinent to the Earhart/ Short-wave connection in the US including Florida. Maybe Ham Researcher Janet Whitney could help out. LTM, Ron Bright ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:01:25 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re W40K - new development MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Holt > >From Dean A. 2056 > > Just thinking out loud; > if Earhart couldn't receive Howland/Itaska because of receiver/antenna > problems and she was in the air fairly close to them, then how could she > receive a ham from Fla. It seems to me that whether or not AE heard the ham isn't too important right now. The first thing to know is whether the W40K tried to transmit to her. I've been on one side of several radio conversations in which the other guy couldn't hear me, but I kept trying to talk, hoping that if I stayed on topic that he'd hear me. What's on that GC line through Niku and St Pete, the other way around the world? Michael Holt *************************************************************************** From Ric Using the highly sophisticated string and globe method - Australia. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:05:09 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: The unknown castaway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Holt Ric wrote: > We know there was a castaway. We don't know for sure (yet) who it was. > There was no other person known to have been marooned on Gardner. Well, rats. What is known about this mystery person? ************************************************************************** From Ric Only what can be deduced from the bones and artifacts that were found and which have been the subject of rather lengthy discussions on this forum. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:09:00 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: DQ Book Review of Longs' Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson To Janet Whitney: We all make mistakes, even myself. Ric does too, although we don't like to admit that. Being busy is not an excuse for errors, especially from an organization that prides itself on "data quality". It is very hard to write anything about Earhart running more than a few paragraphs without any errors...been there, done that. The best thing to do is to correct them as soon as possible. Ric is an excellent source for finding mistakes in any written, verbal, or video material. I sure wouldn't want to go to the movies with him...he'd point out all the flaws and spoil the fun for all of us. *************************************************************************** From Ric In my own defense, I come by it honestly. Try watching "12 O'Clock High" with my Dad sometime. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:12:03 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Mokapu antenna location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Randy Jacobson The station (where people worked) may have been at Makapu, but the antenna at Makapuu...just a possibility...there were only a couple large antennas in 1937 in that part of Hawaii. Here's the location I have for the antenna: 21* 18' 43"N, 157* 39' 14"W, based upon a May 6, 1963 map of the Makapuu Pt. Radio Beacon (antenna farm at that time). Makapu is further north and slightly to the east, roughly 20-25 miles on a peninsula at Keneoe Bay, near sea level, and is now the site) of a Marine Corps base (also the site of Coconut Island, where the exterior shots of Gilligan's Island was shot...had to bring in other shipwrecks...). I just have to believe (undocumented) that PAA would have put their antenna on the highest available ground, not down in a valley surrounded by tall mountains, shielding them from Pearl Harbor! Trivia question: where was/is Wailupe, site of the US Navy radio station? Hint: don't look at today's maps... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:17:10 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Mokapu antenna location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg Mokapu is a point of land, as in Mokapu Point. It's adjacent to the Marine Corps Air Station at Kaneohe Bay, about 12 miles up the coast from Makapuu Point, as the crow flies. Makapuu Point has a lighthouse. Mokapu Point does not. If you found the PAA Adcock antenna at Makapuu Point, then that must be the place. Seems strange, though, that PAA would consistently use the wring place name. Bob ************************************************************************** From Ric "Found" the Adcock antenna as in found it on a map? Where did the Clippers land? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:17:58 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Antenna and propagation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From JHam 2128 Re Paul Rafford - I'm in touch with Mr. Rafford currently and will be happy to provide contact info. Just contact me at jham@mindspring.com. blue skies, -jerry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:18:53 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Wristwatch/Chronometer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From JHam 2128 re FN wristwatch: I am travelling away from my files, but this is what I remember about second setting watches. Weems was involved in the development of the second setting watch while he was still in the Navy, before he retired and set up the Weems School of Navigation. The first ones were used by the Navy. Weems says the first civilian to receive one was Lindbergh. I think Longines may have been the only company making them at the time. I believe FN had one. I think there is a picture of one in one of Weems' navigation books. blue skies, -jerry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:22:52 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Mokapu antenna location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg For Randy Jacobson: Right after I sent my previous reply, I did a web search for Mokapu and Pan Am. Turns out there was a Pan Am radio station at Mokapu. NOAA has a summary of cyclones that have hit Hawaii over the years - - see http://www.nws.noaa.gov/pr/hnl/cphc/summaries/1900-52.html . One of the storms cited was the "Mokapu Cyclone" which hit August 18-19, 1938. The NOAA report consists chiefly of extracts from the August 19, 1938 issue of the Honolulu Star Bulletin. The pertinent extract states: "Between midnight and 3 a.m. a gale tore over the island, reaching proportions of 'whole gale' with a velocity of 60-3/4 miles per hour at the Pan American radio station at Mokapu". I'm wondering: if the PAA radio station was at Mokapu, then why wasn't the Adcock antenna there as well? There are several instances of PAA messages in which they mention closing down DF search for Earhart so they can work an arriving or departing PAA flight. I also recall reading (perhaps at the Pan Am web site) that their homing procedure required the ground radio operator to tell the aircraft operator to hold his key down long enough for the ground operator to get a DF bearing, which he then would pass to the aircraft. This suggests that the radio station and the DF station were collocated. Could there have been two PAA stations? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:24:21 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: ham network? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Cam Warren For David Evans Katz - Yes, there was a ham network dedicated to tracking AE on the first R-T-W attempt. Walter McMenamy (NOT really a ham) was involved, along with several other real hams - mostly from Southern California. Sorry, I don't have the source material on hand - but probably next week. Cam Warren ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:29:31 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Bradford Washburn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From William Webster-Garman I just ran across an AP story, from earlier this year, about the Explorer's Club in NYC, which contains a brief interview with a 90 year old cartographer and mountaineer from Boston named Bradford Washburn. After mentioning that Washburn was a friend of Richard Byrd, it mentions that he was interviewed for the job of navigator on Amelia Earhart's round-the-world flight, but lost interest because he thought the radios were inadequate. Washburn is currently honorary director of the Boston Museum of Science, according to the article. I wonder if he'd be interested in talking to TIGHAR about his memory of AE's radio config (if he hasn't already). ************************************************************************** From Ric I talked to Brad way back in the early days of the project. His abortive involvement with the World Flight dated from very early in the planning before the airplane was even delivered. He met with GP and AE in Rye, NY and was, frankly, appalled at AE's cavalier attitude toward navigation and quickly decided that he wanted nothing to do with the whole affair. He never saw the radio set up in the airplane. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:33:24 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re W40K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Vern >Nancy feels quite sure that she has her father's HAM logs somewhere among his >personal belongings and is now eager to help us verify whether or not her >father may have, in fact, "worked" Amelia Earhart after she disappeared. If he "worked" Amelia, he had to be transmitting in a Ham band -- to be legal, that is. Amelia would have had to tune her receiver to his frequency in one of the Ham bands. Amelia was stuck with 3105 and 6210 (and the possible harmonics) for transmitting, and none of these are in Ham bands. It sounds unlikely. Did Mr. Carroll "work" another Ham who was pretending to be Earhart? If so, the whole thing must have taken place on a Ham band frequency. If Carroll's log books show an Earhart contact in one of the Ham bands... then we know it was NOT Amelia Earhart. *************************************************************************** From Ric No argument, but let's remember that all we have at this point is a remembered comment "I talked to her; I always wondered what happened". Heck, he could have met her at a dinner. We need paper. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:55:03 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: W40K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Don Neumann Ric, You mentioned that: >>...'Nancy's father had remarked " "I talked to her; I wondered what happened".... Is it within the realm of reasonable 'speculation' that the gentleman _could_ have ...'talked to her'... by radio, sometime after she took off from Florida for San Juan, Puerto Rico, at the _start_ of the 'second' flight & that AE _might_ have 'jotted' down his call sign (at that time) in her notes, which 'notes' she _may_ have referred to (calls for even greater 'speculation') after landing at Gardner (or wherever), in 'desperation', after her radio broadcasting efforts to raise anyone else failed? In her 'notes' about the takeoff from Miami, AE did mention the fact that she was ...'tuned in to Miami's radio station WQAM, which was broadcasting summaries of weather conditions prepared by PanAm meterologists'..., though no mention of any other any other radio 'contacts', except ...'on a Spanish station'... where she heard her 'name' mentoned. ('Last Flight'...The Start'...) In the same chapter of that book, AE also comments..." What with such expert navigational help & the assistance of the Sperry gyropilot, I began to feel that my long-range flying was becoming pretty sissy. The ease & casualness were further accentuated by the marvelous help given by radio."..., interesting that the same deceptive 'ease & casualness' accentuated by that same radio, would ultimately prove to be a significant factor in the flight's undoing! Don Neumann *************************************************************************** From Ric As has been pointed out, there are some real frequency incompatability issues that argue against AE having any two way conversation with any HAM. The ONLY instance of true two-way communication I can recall is the July 1st test flight at Lae. I have to wonder how the "HAM network" allegedly set up to follow the first WF attempt was supposed to work and what it was intended to accomplish. Among the "books" aboard the aircraft at the time of the Luke Filed inventory were: - "Radio Aids, Navigation" - "List of Broadcasting stations" (Berne?) - "List of Coast Sations and Ship Stations" (almost certainly the Berne list) - " List of Aeronautical stations and aircraft stations" (Berne again?) - "List of Stations performing special services" (Was there such a Berne list?) No mention of a list of amateur stations. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:00:36 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Flares or meteors? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Frank Westlake > From Rick Seapin > Regarding the New York Times newspaper article, dated July 6, 1937, > the Itasca reported seeing flares. Later they reported they saw > meteors. I have seen hundreds of meteors, and they hit the earth's > atmosphere at least at 17,000 mph, how can you mistake the two... Lookouts on ships are the newest and least experienced sailors that can be found. A young lookout not having seen a flare before, and perhaps not having seen as many shooting start as you, could easily confuse the two. > ...who made the final call? Given the circumstances I can't imagine the skipper ignoring such a report. Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:01:47 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Ham Radio in 1937 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Janet Whitney I am not a ham. I don't have any interest in becoming a ham. I understand that almost all the back issues of the ham magazine QST are available from the ARRL (www.arrl.org). This would seem to be a way of discerning who was talking to whom in 1937. Since propagation conditions today are similar to 1937, perhaps some hams could design some experiments using AM transmissions. I believe that almost all ham transceivers sold during the past 10 years can transmit AM with 40 watts or so of power. Perhaps a ham in Wyoming could try contacting a ham in St. Petersburg on various frequencies at various power levels. Janet Whitney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:04:26 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re W40K - new development MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Marty Moleski > From Mike Holt > ... I've been on one side of several radio conversations in which the other > guy couldn't hear me, but I kept trying to talk, hoping that if I > stayed on topic that he'd hear me. Is it possible that Betty heard two overlapping transmissions, one with a man's voice and one with a woman's? Marty #2359 *************************************************************************** From Ric That's a possibilty I'm hoping we can get a better handle on when I interview her on Sunday. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:15:10 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: No forum Sunday & Monday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric Pat and I are leaving Saturday noontime to spend Sunday with Betty and Monday at Purdue University; home Monday night. I'll do the postings Saturday morning but there will be no forum on Sunday (as usual) or on Monday 11/6. Business as usual on Tuesday. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:12:06 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: W40K - new development MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike Holt Ric wrote: > Using the highly sophisticated string and globe method - Australia. Are there any reports from Australia? I'll have a look at the site for the unknown castaway discussion. Michael Holt *************************************************************************** From Ric I'm aware of no reports of alleged post-loss messages heard in Australia. I'm not sure you're getting the point about the "unknown castaway". The bones Gallagher found were those of a castaway. He thought at first that he had found Earhart but the examinations of the bones by Isaac and Hoodless apparently convinced him and his superiors that it wasn't Earhart. Hence, an "unknown castaway" on Gardner Island. I think his first impression was correct. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:38:18 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Book Review of Longs' Earhart Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Van Hunn Ric, In your comments to Janet Whitney, you said the last you heard, Linda Finch's bogus 10E is in Texas and not in the Western Aerospace Museum. I just called the Denton airport and confirmed that, yes, Linda's aircraft is still there as part local museum. For the benefit of forum menbers that may not know, Denton is a city about 30 miles north of Dallas/Fort Worth. The airport is small and uncontrolled(no control tower operators): however, it is probably the only airport in the world that has TWO Lockheed 10's. Besides Linda's, there is a 10A (s/n 1079) that belongs to a medical doctor. LTM, Van ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:46:05 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: W4OK -- Rethinking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Vern Rethinking the possibility of Mr. Carroll having "worked" Amelia. If it's true that Amelia contemplated working with Hams on the first attempt, that possibility may still have been in her mind when she was trying to contact anyone at all from somewhere in the Pacific. The Ham bands may have been about the only place she heard any activity. And the broadcast band? Of course, this all requires that her receiver was working again. If Carroll had been aware of any plan to work with Hams on the first attempt, he might have been looking for such communication possibility during the second attempt. In that case, no doubt he would have been aware the Amelia's transmitting frequencies. Harmonics? Was that business of hearing better on some harmonic such common knowledge at that time that he would have listened for Amelia on the possible harmonics of her two known transmitting frequencies? I'm suggesting the possibility that Carroll was hearing Amelia on some harmonic of her transmitter and she was hearing him in one of the Ham bands -- a frequency near her harmonic which was in the frequency region of the "skip" opening between Florida and the central Pacific at that time. Sometime it does work both ways. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:48:21 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Mokapu antenna location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Jim Tierney In answer to question on where the Pan AM Clippers landed in Hawaii---- They landed in the harbor at Pearl Harbor... The Clipper base/mooring was in Pearl City in the Middle Loch -North and west of the NB at Ford Island.... Pearl City is west of Honolulu/Waikiki on the north shore of the harbor... Jim Tierney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:52:52 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Manta boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Rick Seapin Hello Ric/Forum: Years ago, when I was into S.C.U.B.A., I had the opportunity to use a torpedo. No, not the kind that is shot from a sub, but an electrically driven unit which pulls a diver along the ocean floor. They were cumbersome and heavy. However, I'm sure that nowadays, the propulsions devices must be state of the art and light weight. ************************************************************************* From Ric Would the same concerns apply to a "torpedo"? *************************************************************************** From Van Hunn Ric, In response to some warnings posted by forum members concerning Manta Boards, I offer the following: The Manta Boards we used in the 1997 lagoon search were part of the dive equipment belonging to the live-aboard SCUBA ship Nai'a. These Manta Boards are made of plywood about three feet wide by two feet. There are holes to attach a towing rope, and two slots for the diver's hands. The diver is in complete control of assent and descent by either tilting the board up or down. While being towed, if the diver turns loose of the board, he/she will stop while the board continues on and soon floats to the surface. These boards were excellent equipment because: A. The diver did not have to do any navigation over the grid area to be searched. The boat driver did the navigating by visual sighting of bouys outlining the grid. B. Propulsion was from the the boat instead of the diver's legs, making it easy to search much more of the grid without exhausting the diver. Divers were towed at about swimming speed in order to see more and to make it easier to avoid coral heads. I am happy to no diver was injured; however, the Manta boards had a few scars from bumping coral heads! Is towing a SCUBA diver as dangerous from an embolism standpoint as some have said? Yes and No. For a noncertified or nonexperienced diver, Yes. For an experienced diver, No. I cannot imagine an experienced diver ever holding his/her breath while ascending--whether being towed or ascending for any reason. Additionally, divers all over the world use other devices for towing. One of the most popular is the battery operated diving Scooter--these could actually be more hazardous than boat-towing because the can take a diver much deeper. Also, we have all seen TV diving shows where a diver is being towed by manta rays, whale sharks, or other creatures. Again these are not for the inexperienced divers. Since this subject surfaced (!) a few days ago on the forum, I called two friends each of which owns a dive shop. Both said essentially the same thing--experienced divers only. By the way, our local fire department does employ towing of their experienced SCUBA divers when doing bottom searches. What about the experience of the TIGHAR Team divers? Both the owner/operator and the chief instructor of Nai'a are Master certified, instructor certified and have years of experience. Another diver, Tommy Love, is a medical doctor with specialties is decompression sickness and a lot of SCUBA experience. I am Master certified, Open water instructor certified(emeritus), and NACD Cave Diver certified. I hope the above helps forum members with the Manta board question. LTM, Van ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:25:01 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Birch Matthews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ric It is with great sadness and regret that I must tell you all that our friend Birch Matthews died suddenly and unexpectedly this past weekend. I don't yet know what happened. I have just now received an email from his family informing me of his passing. Birch was a fine gentleman who was always eager to share with us the Lockheed 10 data he had collected over the years and his impressive knowledge of aircraft and engine performance. We will miss him. I've told the family that I will forward to them whatever messages of sympathy the Forum may wish to express. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:26:03 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Cold on Niku? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Tom Van Hare > AE and FN did not live in the tropics and 70 degrees is not cold. I've been > chilly on Niku but only in a drenching rain with lots of wind. I suppose it may also get cold if you are all wet from wading in the surf and the wind is really blowing, but this would be a temporary thing -- until you dry out -- and not something you would see fit to comment about on the radio. Thomas Van Hare ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:27:26 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Mokapu antenna location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bob Brandenburg > >From Randy Jacobson > > Here's the location I have for the antenna: > > 21* 18' 43"N, 157* 39' 14"W, based upon a May 6, 1963 map of the Makapuu Pt. I plotted your coordinates on a 1:24,000 topographic map, and sure enough that position is at Makapuu Point at an elevation of 520 feet above sea level. And it does have an unobstructed "view" on the bearing 214 degrees true. That location is shown on the map -- dated 1983 - - as a U.S. Coast Guard Reservation. So, what was PAA doing up at Mokapu Point? > Trivia question: where was/is Wailupe, site of the US Navy radio station? > > Hint: don't look at today's maps... This is appears to be too obvious, so I smell a trap. But I'll play anyway. Wailupe is at 21* 16' 47" N 157* 45' 35" W, on the shore of Maunalua Bay between Koko head and Diamond Head. The Navy radio station was there until just after the attack on Pearl Harbor, when the station was relocated to Wahiawa. Bob #2286 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:28:19 EST Reply-To: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum Sender: The Amelia Earhart Search Forum From: "Richard E. Gillespie" Subject: Re: Mokapu antenna location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194: For Bob Brandenburg >I'm wondering: if the PAA radio station was at Mokapu, then why wasn't the >Adcock antenna there as well? I have no hard info but my interpretation is as follows: There could be two sites: a receiving station or DF station, plus a transmitter site... or maybe "communications" site, separate from the DF site. That would make good technical sense. If the transmitters were close by the DF, the noise and "splatter" generated by a transmitter could cause interference to the DF. 73 Mike E. _ ===========================================================