Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:37:57 EST From: Doug Brutlag Subject: "Lost Star" by Randall Brink As long as wre bringing up stuff from previous books, whatever happened to Randall Brink's assertion that AE was on an alledged spy mission over the Marshalls, landed, taken prisoner, witnessed by locals, and the airplane stored away in an underground hangar on an atoll? Doug B. ************************************************************************** From Ric Don't get me started. "Amelia Earhart Lives!" by Klaas and Gervais was a better book. At least their nonsense was entertaining. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:00:55 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Berths available on Nai'a In case anyone is interested, this just in from our friends at Nai'a Cruises (Nai'a is the ship we used for our expeditions to Niku in 1997 and 1999). "Explore & Discover Phoenix Rising : Kiribati 2000 Just three places remain on our 22-day exploratory diving and scientific research expedition throughout the Phoenix Islands in Kiribati, more than 1000 miles north of Fiji. This exclusive and ambitious project is a collaboration between NAI'A divers and New England Aquarium (NEAq) scientists. The eight uninhabited and mysterious Phoenix atolls lie in one of the last places in the world where coral reefs and coastal fish populations exist unaffected by human settlement and development. It is ideal from a conservation biology perspective as a point of global comparison. For divers seeking new frontiers, Phoenix Rising is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity! Our dives among mantas, sharks, fish schools and turtles off Nikumaroro during the Amelia Earhart quests (97 & 99) so stunned and amazed us that we vowed to investigate the entire region. Limited to 8 passengers, the project funds a 4-strong research team led by Greg Stone and Austen Yoshinaga of NEAq, to survey whale and dolphin populations, assess coral and algae health, find new fish species and film deep water and benthic creatures - sperm whales once gathered here in thousands! Please inquire directly for full details of this exciting expedition: June 24 - July 15, 2000: $15,000pp NAI'A Premier Pacific Diving Expeditions US Tel: 1-800-903-0272 Fiji Tel: + 679-450-382 Fax: + 679-450-566 E-mail: naia@is.com.fj PO Box 332 Pacific Harbour Fiji Islands ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:39:06 EST From: Ron Dawson Subject: Fred's Salary Got to wondering if we could access Fred's tax returns from 1930-36 (that is, if he filed), with an FOIA request. broached the subject to IRS. This is the response I got. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thank you for your question. The IRS would not have records dating that far back. You may order actual copies of tax returns going back to 1992. Basic account information and W2 data is available on microfiche going back into the 1980's. Prior to that, there are no records kept. The additional problem you face is a disclosure problem. Even through the FOIA, another persons tax return or tax return information is not available unless you have a valid, signed power of attorney form authorizing you access to the return information. Good luck. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ bet if they thought I owed money from way back, they could dig up the records. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:11:58 EST From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Post-loss messages Without buying the CD, is there a posting of the post crash radio messages that TIGHAR believes could be real ? Do these include those messages that were 'fixed' in the Gilberts or are there other messages TIGHAR believes are real ? LTM Patrick (2239) *************************************************************************** From Ric The full analysis of the post-loss radio transmissins will be dealt with in the 8th Edition of the project book, due out in March. But in brief: No messages were "fixed" in the Gilberts. DF bearings on four of six transmissions seemed to cross in the vicinity of Gardner Island but Bob Brandenburg's propagation analysis indicates that it is unlikely that these signals actually originated from the Earhart aircraft on Gardner. Likewise, the famous "281" message now looks like a hoax. On the other hand, the transmissions heard on 6210 by Nauru on the evening of July 2nd look very good. Also, apparent responses heard on July 5th by Navy Radio, Tutuilla to a request for "dashes" sent by KGMB radio in Honolulu, could have theoretically originated at Gardner. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:13:49 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Noonan & PAA >"Fred Noonan said, 'We've lived on promises for a year. I'm through.' > He resigned immediately." I think it's interesting to note that Grooch's book Jerry cites was published in 1939. That's not long after the fact and memories would have still been fresh. It's the last of several books Grooch wrote about PAA and flying the Pacific routes. It appears that Grooch died that same year -- 1939. The idea that Fred intended to start his own navigation school, presumably in California, also seems pretty plausible. Fred seems to have been well acquainted with Weems who ran a navigation school in Annapolis. Perhaps he could make a go of the same sort of thing on the west coast. According to Grooch, Fred was fresh out of a job. He needed to find something to make a living. He may actually have said to Amelia Earhart, as some of the books claim, "I need this flight." It would sure have been good PR for him and his fledgling navigation school. Fred Noonan, 'Round the World Navigator! He even found that fly-speck of an island in the Pacific Ocean called Howland..... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:23:36 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: Nai'a cruises The Nai'a Cruises do not go ashore at Niku, do they? Talk about an opportunity to REALLY screw things up, that's just what we (Tighar) need -- a bunch of tourists camping out on Niku. My colon twitches at the mere thought of it. LTM, who cruised in her youth Dennis O. McGee #0149CE *************************************************************************** From Ric Calm thy colon. Nai'a will spend maybe one day at Niku and divers want to be in the water, not on the island. If they do go ashore they'll poke around in the village debris near the landing (like every other casual visaitor to the island). Niku's secrets are well hidden, even from us most of the time. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:38:04 EST From: Clyde Miller Subject: Re: Nai'a cruises Any opportunity here for Nai'a personnel to do casual checks on the Shipwreck side to answer the debris question. Seems to me that might be a quick visual for the broad overview? Clyde Miller (who loves to squeeze pennies) ************************************************************************* From Ric We can certainly make the suggestion that somebody take a look at the suspect area on the relatively shallow (40 to 50 feet) shelf northward from the stern of Norwich City. I'll personally be surprised if there's anything there ( I suspect that everything went "downstream"), but I'd be happy to be surprised. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:34:43 EST From: Suzanne Subject: Lost Star "Lost Star" is an incredible waste of time -- not only does it contain unsubstantiated flights of fancy about Amelia Earhart, it is one of the worst written books I have ever read. I read it over 5 years ago and my disgust with it remains as clear as if I read it yesterday. Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:41:27 EST From: Ron Dawson Subject: Fred and Musick This item may have been discussed on the forum, but I don't recall. From an article in New York Times (4-18-35, p. 3) in which Edwin Musick describes the first Hawaii flight and writes a paragraph about each crew member. Here is what he wrote about Fred. "Our navigation officer, Fred J. Noonan, did not take his scheduled rest during the entire 18 hours, 40 minutes we were aloft. Swathed in a heavy flying suit, face mask and goggles, he made more than a dozen trips down the long aisle to the aft observation hatch to take his periodic sights of the stars. In addition to his navigation duties, he also recorded a complete analysis of wind and weather conditions on the entire area we covered". --------------------------------------- sounds like a work ethic to me. Ron Dawson 2126 ************************************************************************* From Ric Just watch. Somebody will say he had a bottle stashed back in the tail. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:05:17 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: Radio Nauru / Times of transmission In response to Patrick Baldwin's inquiry regarding the validity of post crash messages you believe that the transmission heard by Radio Nauru on 6210 "on the evening (sic) of Jul 2" looks good to support AE's survival after her last message to Itasca at 0844. I certainly agree but another source says the three voice messages intercepted by Radio Nauru came in the morning at 0901,0913 and 0924- not in the evening. This time discrepancy certainly makes a difference on the time she may have crashed,etc. Radio Nauru said they couldn't decipher the voice but it sounded similiar to AEs and that operator had heard her voice through the night. Do these times reconcile with your records? ************************************************************************* From Ric The source you're referring to is Safford. His miscalculation of the time was due to his mistaken belief that Greenwich Civil Time (GCT) was different from Greenwhich Mean Time (GMT). We had an exhaustive discussion about this last year on the Forum. There's really no doubt about it. The primary sources (14th Naval District Radio Transcripts and a telegram received by the U.S. State Department) agree that the Nauru messages were heard at 18:31, 18:43, and 18:54 Sydney Australia Time on July 3rd (in Australia, July 2nd at Niku). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:07:00 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Noonan & PAA Since Jerry had brought Grooch's books to our attention, I thought I would have a look at the others. I picked up the first one, "Skyway to Asia" just tonight. It was published in 1936. I've not seen much of it yet. I looked for an index at the back but there is none. However, there was the last page right in front of me. Grooch is at Alameda... "The China Clipper cruised at ten thousand feet, toward Alameda, a mile above the clouds, under a clear sky. Our radio operator heard her exchanging greetings with several ships at sea. Noonan got a fix every hour from the stars. Not once did she swerve from the great circle course." A paragraph later, I see that Musick was flying the plane. The Foreword is sort of interesting: This is a story of the first North Haven Expedition, dispatched to build commercial air bases across the Pacific Ocean -- the stepping stones for the flying clipper ships on their airway to the Orient. It is a story of personal experiences, my own -- not an official record of the Expedition. Nor is it a story of the Clippers themselves, of their design and building and their sky voyages, nor the moves that led to the conception of this singular American enterprise. This book will come as a great surprise to my associates who were not consulted in its preparation. The last thing they and the Company would expect from me would be a book! This book salutes them all in my name. Alemeda Airport June 1936 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:30:15 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: Noonan >From Ric > >Just watch. Somebody will say he had a bottle stashed back in the tail. Have you ever seen a heavy drinker manage to stay on his feet for 18+ hours? That dog don't hunt - as the saying goes (pardon the poor English). LTM Blue Skies, Dave Bush ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:59:25 EST From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Aeroplane Monthly In its March 2000 issue Aeroplane Monthly, a London-based British publication covering aviation history and classic aircraft, publishes an "exclusive" article on "New search for Amelia Earhart under way". It reminds that it "helped instigate deep water survey to find Lockheed 10". It might be interesting to read what Aeroplane says. For the benefit of those on the Forum who are unable to find the publication in their local bookstore I'm sending the complete text as published in the March issue. "News has just been released of an underwater search for the Lockheed 10E flown by American aviatrix Amelia Earhart, which was lost on almost the last stage of her attempt to fly around the world on an equatorial track in 1937. Aeroplane investigated her disappearance, one of aviation's great mysteries, in 1989- and our conclusion helped spark off the hunt. The deep water sonar search was privately funded and took place last November and December. It was organized by Holland Landing Ltd., William sons & Associates Inc. and Guy Zacone Productions, in cooperation with International Bridge Corporation and its vessel June T. Leaving the Marshall Islands in the South Pacific, the ship was on site near the tiny Holland Island for more than 30 days and surveyed some 600 square miles of ocean bottom, digitally mapping a hitherto unknown area. Using Williamson & Associates SM. 30 sidescan sonar tethered to more than five miles of cable the search reached depths down to 18,000 ft. Amelia and her navigator, Red Noonan, took off from Lae in New Guinea (then a mandated Australian territory) at precisely 0000 hr. GMT on July 2, 1937, to fly east to Holland Island, where the Americans had built an airstrip. Her ETA was 1800 hr. GMT. Two American vessels were in position to aid the navigation but the main method en route was astro observations. There were some voice-to-voice transmissions from Amelia which gave clues as to what happened. One o the reasons for the search was the two-part article "What did happen to Amelia Earhart ?" specially written for Aeroplane by Roy Nest and published in our January and February 1989 issues. Knowing that Amelia took off from territory which was part of the British Empire, Roy began by digging out crucial information at the Public Records Office. He obtained performance details of the aircraft from Lockheed, found details of the fuel on board from Australian newspapers in the British Newspaper Library, obtained weather reports from the Meteorological Archives at Bracknell, and used his own wartime experience of astro-navigation in combination with Greenwich Observatory. His conclusion was that the Lockheed could have ditched about 30 nautical miles north-west of Holland. Unknown to him, this corresponded roughly with a calculation made by the US Navy soon after Ameba's disappearance. As a result of recent ocean survey, a number of potential targets have been logged by specialists at Wilson's offices in Seattle. These are currently being computer enhanced. It is expected that phase two of the search will take place this year, using remotely operated vehicles (Roves ) capable of video and still imaging. if need bee, the area of search will be increased. This seems to be the maritime equivalancy of looking for a needle in a haystack - but, having been partly responsible for sparking off the search Aeroplane will be watching developments with special interest". *************************************************************************** From Ric They are, of course, talkng about the Timmer search and failing to even mention Elgen Long and the competing (although apparently still unfunded) Nauticos search. The editor at Aeroplane Monthly, Mik Oakey, and I are old friends. We exchange publications but I haven't seen the March issue yet. Roy Nesbit (not "Nest") has done some good aviation historical investigative work ( I enjoyed his article about the Glenn Miller mystery) but his Earhart piece was written before the Chater report came to light and he based his speculation upon fuel figures that he would probably now revise. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:38:43 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Fred and Musick Someone already has stated that FJN took bottles back to the aft observatory of the first flight to Hawaii/Wake/Manilla. It seems that first plane had no observation capability behind the pilot's cabin, except in the rear toilet, of all things. People claim FJN took a briefcase back with him every time. A good story is there about the toilet being open to the world when flushing, but perhaps another time. *************************************************************************** From Ric There are lots of good stories about toilets on airplanes. Some of them are even true. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:46:39 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Aeroplane Monthly Perhaps Holland Island is one of those islands that appear and then disappear, much like Winslow Reef. Probably claimed by the Netherlands. Or it could be a part of the Marshall Islands. Does anyone have a good Atlas to tell us where this island might be? LTM, with tongue firmly in cheek, and almost biting it off. ************************************************************************** From Dan Postellon Is Ameba Earhart too small to wear mosquito boots? ************************************************************************** From Ric You see Herman? This is what you get for trying to be a nice guy and transcribe an entire article for this gang. We should make them put up their next postings in Flemish. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:35:20 EST From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Aeroplane Monthly << His (Roy Nesbit) conclusion was that the Lockheed could have ditched about 30 nautical miles north-west of Holland. >> Nesbit is absolutely correct - the Lockheed COULD have ditched 30 miles NW of Howland (not Holland unless Fred really screwed up the last fix). It could have ditched any where. I am baffled as to how anyone could make such a determination based on the known facts. If I'm allowed to use whatever fuel flows, winds aloft, OAT, headings, and course I want I can ditch the plane where ever anyone would like. Please pick shallow water and close to shore. Makes the search easier. Alan #2329 *************************************************************************** From Herman Next time these guys can go out and buy their copies themselves. LTM from Herman (who is sorry he typed "Ameba" and "Holland" and whose computer does not have automatic spelling control in English). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:39:48 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Fred and Musick All those "trips down the long aisle to the aft observation hatch" - I bet he had a bottle stashed down there. ************************************************************************* From Ric Very funny. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:50:23 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: "Amelia Earhart Lives" What happened with the lawsuit against Klaas, Gervais, and whomever else? ************************************************************************** From Ric The Bolams brought suit against the publisher, McGraw Hill (go where the money is), who settled out of court for an undisclosed sum rumored to be high in six figures. That episode will be a chapter in my forthcoming book "The Search for Amelia Earhart - A Litigation History." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:35:22 EST From: Deb Subject: Re: Fred's salary The IRS doesn't have tax returns going back to the 1930s. If you went through the IRS to get anything and you weren't the taxpayer(s) in question, you would have to get a POA for disclosure purposes. You might try the Social Security Administration, or the employer(s) records for wages. I don't know how useful the National Records Center would be. There's one for each region. Deb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:01:39 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: Re: Aeroplane Monthly "LTM from Herman (who is sorry he typed "Ameba" and "Holland" and whose computer does not have automatic spelling control in English)." Herman: Judging from the typos on the forum, most of the subscribers' computers don't either. I think they were just having a bit of fun. Don't get discouraged, and keep coming back!! LTM, who also is spelling-challenged Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:52:24 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: The Mystery of the Bottle Some thoughts out of a bottle... I started my room-temperature evaporation experiment on February 1, 2000. The Benedictine bottle used is stated to contain 750 ml (3/4 liter). In the position it likes to assume when not standing upright, and unstoppered, it holds 530 ml of water (just over 1/2 liter). It might be said that this is going to be as exciting as watching water evaporate! I find it difficult to believe that we will find that a Benedictine bottle on Niku, even in the shade of a Ren tree, could possibly have still contained some drinking water after months or even years. How long might it have been? If we assume the bottle was with the individual who perished under the Ren tree, then it has to have been long enough for that individual to have become only a partial skeleton. I suspect that is a longer time than water would remain in an unstoppered bottle. We seem to assume an unstoppered bottle. Is there any good reason to believe that was the case? The relationship of the bottle to the skull -- and other bones and artifacts -- seems to me a little unclear. Gallagher's first telegram (Tarawa File) says, "... a certain bottle alleged to have been found near skull discovered on Gardner Island." In the second telegram he says, "Thorough search has now produced more bones (including lower jaw) part of a shoe a bottle and a sextant box." When the heck was the Benedictine bottle found? It seems communication between the Gilbertese and the British was not the greatest. The "when" of the finding of the Benedictine bottle could be very uncertain. The idea of it's being near where the skull was found (and buried) doesn't necessarily mean they were found at the same time. Maybe the bottle was found much earlier. Trying very hard to move the bottle back in time far enough that it might still contain drinking water.... Harry Maude and 19 Gilbertese were on Gardner Island for about three days in mid-October of 1937. Koata was one of them and he's the guy who had the Benedictine bottle in 1940. How long had he had it? Did he remember that it was found in about the same place where the skull was found a couple of years later? Or, was the skull actually found and buried as early as 1937? LTM (Who never touches the shtuff... *hic*) *************************************************************************** From Ric <> Only because no stopper is mentioned. We also don't know that the bottle contained water when found or that it was on its side. Kilts says it contained fresh water for drinking and was found "beside the body." Gallagher says (on October 6, 1940) "Benedictine" bottle but no indication of contents." The bottle is a strange element in an already strange story. Why does Koata have it with him when he goes to Tarawa? At Gallagher's instruction, and if so, to what end? Or does Gallagher only discover that Koata has gone off with it after the ship has left, thus prompting his telegram to Wernham asking him to intercept Koata and the bottle. Either way, Wernham does end up with the bottle but it apparently never gets sent on to Fiji and is, in fact, never mentioned to the authorities in Fiji. Why? I'm not very comfortable changing Gallagher's story so much that the skull is found in 1937 instead of 1940. Rather than move the discovery time back, perhaps it makes more sense to move the castaway's time of death forward. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that it takes three months for a nominal amount of water to evaporate from a nominal Benedictine bottle. Let's also say that it takes that same three months for a dead body on Niku to be reduced to a state at which it is no longer of interest to dogs (and we're assuming, for the moment, that dogs are responsible for the scattering of the big bones). Now let's assume that the bottle (with water) was found at the same time as the skull, which according to Gallagher, occurred around April of 1940. That would indicate that the castaway died in January 1940. Is that credible? That would mean that somebody was alive on that island when Maude and Bevington were there in October 1937, when the New Zealand survey party arrived December 1, 1938 and the first 10 man Gilbertese work party arrived on December 20th of that year, when the first settlers arrived in April and June of 1939, and when the Bushnell survey was done in November 1939. Could a weak and possibly round-the-bend castaway be languishing in the bush on the southeast end of the island unbeknownst to all those people? Well, of all those people, who do we know actually went down there? Bevington walked all the way around the atoll with a few Gilbertese in October 1937, but by the time he got down there they were not doing any exploring. They were just trudging up the beach trying to get back to camp. The New Zealand survey concentrated on the west end and the deeper parts of the lagoon. The Bushnell survey was only there for a week. One of their towers was maybe a half mile from the 1996 Site and one of the data points along the shore was perhaps within a hundred meters or so of the site. All of the clearing and planting work done by the colonists was way up at the west end except for some possible kanawa wood harvesting (which is what we suspect eventually led to the discovery of the bones). It's an admittedly bizarre hypothesis. A person alive on Gardner but deliberately avoiding contact with people who are there. What evidence is there to support it? - the (alleged) water in the bottle that should have evaporated away. - the scattered skeleton that should not have been of interest to the dogs who (perhaps) scattered it. - Gallagher's description of "birds killed" and "dead birds" at the site, rather than bird bones. Dead people don't eat birds. If the people bones are so ancient why aren't the birds reduced to bones? - And there is, much as I hesitate to mention it, an anecdotal account of a person on Nikumaroro in the early days of the settlement seeing a tall, fair-skinned woman with long hair back in the bush. The apparition was taken to be the island's guardian spirit Nei Manganibuka. Maybe it was. Maybe it was someone else. Music up. Fade out. Roll credits. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:03:13 EST From: Troy Carmichael Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle "And there is, much as I hesitate to mention it, an anecdotal account of a person on Nikumaroro in the early days of the settlement seeing a tall, fair-skinned woman with long hair back in the bush. The apparition was taken to be the island's guardian spirit Nei Manganibuka. Maybe it was. Maybe it was someone else." Maybe no one ever saw the tracks of the fair-skinned woman since she was wearing mosquito boots (which don't leave tracks). Mosquito feet are pretty darn small....... on a more serious note, if the weather is humid and it ever rains, water could remain indefinately in the bottle. Whether or not it would be considered "drinking water", I don't know, but my experience with old bottles in the woods and old out buildings of our ante-bellum plantation has shown me numerous bottles which, though abandonned for decades, always seem to have some water in them. As a mater of recollection, I cannot think of any instance having ever found any bottle that did not have liquid in it. Of cou rse, that's in Alabama where it is humid, rains, and mosquitoes don't wear boots (they can't afford them). and on the less serious, as to the stories of the bathroom in AE's plane, my grandmother (Mary Alice Beatty) installed the first bathroom ever in an airplane (if you really want to see it, go to the Alabama avaiation hall of fame in Birmingham). While most people were christened by Neptune crossing the equator, a lesser known fact is that she is the first woman to christen the equator (from the air). Wonder if AE or FN ever thought of that...... ;-) LTM troy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:03:16 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle >It's an admittedly bizarre hypothesis. A person alive on Gardner but >deliberately avoiding contact with people who are there. What evidence is >there to support it? Not so bizarre. You are stranded on an island with one other person, who dies a short time later. You are waiting for help that never, ever arrives. You slowly go MAD, CRAZY, NUTS, LOONEY TUNES. You think the people you see are figments of your imagination - or worse - THEY DON'T SEE YOU!!! Therefore you don't exist!!!! You have found a stash of food - where are the people who left it? Did you not see them? Can't they see you? You have lost your airplane, your career, worry gnaws at you like a dog with an old bone. Easy to follow such an hypothesis, actually. A poor diet could cause mental instability as well as the conditions of the island (including de-hydration, etc.). Poor Amelia (or was it Fred dressed like Amelia?). Without a haircut he would have long hair, wouldn't he? LTM Blue Skies, Dave Bush ************************************************************************** From Ric Oh good. Fred Noonan, Drag Queen. There has GOT to be a body of literature about people going crackers in isolation. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:38:41 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: Leo Bellarts Jr./Interview of On 2 Feb 00, I interviewed Leo Jr about the life and times of his famous father Leo Sr ,Chief Radioman aboard the Itasca. Leo Sr died c. l974 and Leo Jr inherited his father's documents, logs,scrapbooks,letters and so forth and in l975 he donated the bulk of this material to the National Archives.(He didn't mention he gave you guys a copy of the two hour tape and transcript of Elgen Long's interview with Leo Sr conducted by Long in l973. Leo Jr reecalled his father had a photo of the Itasca "smoking" dated l937 and that may very well be the origin of Long's apparently incorrectly dated photo of 2 Jul 37. Leo Jr didn't think that the Itasca made atrip to Howland in l936; he didn't hear about Lt Frank Stewart. A few bits and pieces: According to Leo Jr., Capt Thompson told Leo Sr. shortly after the disappearance to secure the original log in his quarters aboard ship as documents and reports were "disappearing". Leo Sr kept the original radio log in his possession secretly until Leo Jr inherited it. A copy of the log was given to Capt Thompson for his use in the official report. Leo Jr. speculated that the three radiomen, Thompson, Bellarts and Galten,sequentially typed AE's traffic on a single original log (a Coast Guard form) in one typewriter as each took over on radio watch. A carbon copy was given to Capt Thompson. Leo Jr didn't know which radioman kept a separate log (maybeO'hare) that was typed simultaneously with the original as the messages went in and out.(I've never seen the second log reproduced with the notorious 1/2 hour message ) Leo Jr was aware of the word "circle" typed over a word that appears to havve started with the letter "d". Leo Jr said his father was a "two finger typist" which may account for hitting the letter d instead of c just above it. He pointed out lots of typing errors. And Leo gave me a copy of his father's log that does contain some annotations and underlining that may have been added as the years went by; those annotations differ from the logs I've seen reproduced. Leo Jr had given transcripts of his dads interview to local media over the years and most recently to some researchers in SAn Franciso who are preparing a documentary for National Public Radio. Leo Jr said his dad corresponded extetnsively with Balfour after the war and that he still may have some of those letters in his private box. For example Leo recalled that Balfour wrote that AE was disposing of all kinds of stuff from the Elecrtra including her "pistol". Leo Jr was pretty adamant, based on his conversations with Dad, that Amelias last transmissions were frantic and "hysterical" (his word) but wanted to refer to his Dad's interview for an exact quote. Of note, Leo Jr said his father often told him that Amelias signal was coming in so loud,clear and strong that he,Leo Sr., went out the bridge expecting the Electra overhead! In sum Leo Sr had a lot of AE material most of which is in the public hands. These are some ancedotal recollections of a father and son. He was forthright in his answers but very reluctant to give up any other original docs to an amatuer researcher (me) at this point. He seldom talks now with authors or researchers although he said he has known Elgen Long for years; he continufes to get "crackpot" calls from other researchers. If circumstances permit I will recontact him to see if I could review what material that has not been published. LTM, Ron Bright ************************************************************************** From Ric We do not have a copy of the tape, just the transcript. This is what Bellarts told Long in 1973 about the way Earhart sounded: "Ah, actually her voice...we could here her voice just as easy as I'm hearing yours right now and I'm deaf in one ear now. But I'll tell you, you could hear her voice all over the shack and even outside the shack. you know, real loud and clear. I mean it. She was a woman. We heard her quite a few times, you know, but that last one, I'm telling you, it sounded as if she would have broken out in a scream, it would have sounded normal. She was just about ready to break into tears and go into hysterics. That's exactly the way I'd describe her voice now. I'll never forget it." According to the interview it was O'Hare who kept the separate log. Bellarts was quite derisive about O'Hare and the "1/2 hour gas left" notation in his log. The "d" under the word "circling" is more than a "d". It is the complete (but partially erased) word "drifting." The word "circling" is typed over the erasure in a slightly different platen setting. There is no doubt that the word was changed. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:29:05 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Noonan's salary <> Ha!! After my grandfather died, the IRS asked us for all the copies of his gift tax returns dating back to 1936!! Like we had 'em in the file here somewhere. We told the IRS that if they didn't have them, we didn't have them and let it go at that. I'd think the IRS route is a dead end. LTM (who hates filing her taxes) Andrew McKenna 1045 *************************************************************************** From Ric Sounds like an IQ test. Like when the air traffic controller says "Unidentified aircraft that just violated restricted airspace, please say your N number." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:32:06 EST From: Alan Subject: Re: Fred's salary << You might try the Social Security Administration >> Ric, I worked for the SSA in Baltimore before I went into the USAF and they had microfilm of records going back to cave man days. How far back they have records now would be the question. Alan #2329 ************************************************************************** From Ric Granted that Roosevelt's first term was decidedly Neolithic, I wonder if they were up to speed by 1936/37. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:38:27 EST From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Aeroplane Monthly << Next time these guys can go out and buy their copies themselves. >> Herman this was all in fun. I can do that because I am the world's worst speller. Personally I appreciated greatly your post. With a cynical sense of humor I could not lay off "Holland" however. If you could see what I write you would have a field day. The real point I was trying to make was not about your post but how foolish for Nesbit or Long or anyone to brashly predict a ditching location for the Electra. They could only do that if they knew precisely where the plane was at any given moment (which they don't) geographically and what altitude, and exactly how much fuel was available and exactly what the fuel flow rate was. No one knows that either. I can run them out of gas anywhere I want practically. Alan #2329 *************************************************************************** From Ric You wanna talk foolish? Nesbit and Long only wrote about it. Timmer and company went out and shoveled better than a million gold grickles into the Pacific Ocean based on it, and NOVA is apparently still looking for sponsors who want to shovel more. Talk about an IQ test....... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:40:03 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Aeroplane Monthly Please accept my humble apologies for making fun of your typos. I thought they were from the article itself. I often suffer from Foot in Mouth Disease, as Ric can easily testify to. ************************************************************************* From Ric I'm just lovin' this. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:42:36 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Leo Bellarts Jr./Interview of To Ron Bright: If and when you talk to Leo Bellarts Jr, please thank him profusely for the wisdom to submit his father's material to the National Archives. Much of what you described is in his scrapbook, and contains information found nowhere else. Bless you both Leo Bellarts! ************************************************************************* From Ric Amen. If it wasn't for Bellarts' original log we'd still be struggling with Thompson's version of events. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:52:12 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle I don't believe for a moment that AE or FJN survived until Jan 1940 at the far end of the island. Why? Both Bushnell and NZ airplanes flew over Gardner taking aerial photos, and surely someone would have heard them. Further, the colonists likely had fires going at some time or another for cooking at night, and the light from a fire might be visible across the lagoon. You're right: it is a bizarre scenario, and I just don't buy it. Meekly and humbly yours, Randy Jacobson. ************************************************************************** From Ric Like I said, it only works if Fred's dead and AE is totally round the bend and hiding from discovery. Maybe the various factors which make it appear that the castaway had not been dead all that long before the site was found are illusory. Maybe not. I'm just trying to come up with a scenario that fits what may be facts. it's certainly not worth being taken very seriously - yet. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:54:54 EST From: Val Subject: water in the bottle From Val how about simple condensation......forming over a long period of time....it is possible that the liquid just simply built up...... Val ************************************************************************* From Ric I'm not sure that works. If it did, then any bottle left abandoned for a long enough time would have water in it. In my experience that is not the case. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:12:08 EST From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle Without more information, I don't think that speculating on the presence of water in the bottle would be very productive. Fresh water could have remained in a stoppered bottle for years, and natural forces (like rain) could have been responsible for putting a little fresh water into an open bottle. However, as Ric points out, > - Gallagher's description of "birds killed" and "dead birds" at the site, > rather than bird bones. Dead people don't eat birds. If the people bones > are so ancient why aren't the birds reduced to bones? is interesting. I've always been under the impression that Gallagher was referring to bird bones. How did I get that idea? On the other hand, it seems to me that a bird would skeletize even faster than the remains of a human. What about the idea that dogs, arriving with the settlers, scattered the human bones before they were discovered? It's possible, but simply not confirmable. Finally, we have the story from magistrate Teng Koata's wife (quoted from the Tighar site, which cites Paul Laxton"): "The wife of Teng Koata, the first island leader, had been walking one afternoon and saw a great and perfect maneaba, and sitting under its high thatched roof, Nei Manganibuka, a tall fair woman with long dark hair falling to the ground about her, with two children: she conversed with three ancients, talking of her island of Nikumaroro, and its happy future when it would surely grow to support thousands of inhabitants." This story has always seemed to me to be more parts Gilbertese economic boosterism, so to speak, than reality. Stories of quasi-religious visions have a long history as tools of economic and social development that could be of benefit to the storytellers, and the reporter, after all, was the wife of the local magistrate. In the story, there is not only a "tall fair woman with long dark hair" (I would be surprised if Ms Earhart's hair could be described as "dark" by a Gilbertese, and the term "fair" is a relative one), but also two kids, three "ancients", a very well constructed (according to Gilbertese culture and otherwise) meeting house, and clairvoyance into the future (the details of which, to date at least, are wildly incorrect). Yes, it's possible that Teng's wife stumbled onto a female castaway and then projected onto the experience mystical and cultural elements that helped her make sense of a rather startling encounter. It's even possible that the castaway had gone more than a little mad during her isolation, making the meeting even more bizarre. In my humble opinion it's probably an artifact of Gilbertese culture, mostly unrelated to castaways, a motivational tale, an island fable, for a small group of Gilbertese workers enlisted by imperial (British) envoys to develop a small, isolated island. The details of the story tend to disconnect the reported apparition from any basis in fact related to Earhart. Perhaps the story was influenced a little by reports of mysterious bones of European origin having been found in the area. Considering the apparition again, however, is entertaining. william 2243 *************************************************************************** From Ric I can't say that I disagree with you. You make a very rational assessment of the possibilities. But let me throw another couple eyes of newt into the caldron. The place where Mrs. Koata allegedly had her encounter with Nei Manganibuka is Kanawa Point (based on Laxton's description of the geography). The lagoon shore at and near Kanawa Point is the only place on the island where we have found giant clam shells that were opened by human action. Some of them had been there for so long that they had become imbedded in the coral and Tom King originally considered them to be relics of the atoll's prehistoric period of habitation. We have since, however, learned that such imbedding can occur over decades rather than centuries. I asked Emily Sikuli about eating clams. She said that her father (who was an Ellice Islander) occasionally harvested clam meat but the Gilbertese people never ate the stuff. So who was eating clams a long time ago down by Kanawa Point where Mrs. Koata saw whoever she saw? Like you say. It's entertaining. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 08:53:19 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle Re: Eating clams at Kanawa Point. Couldn't it have been the Arundel workers from 1890's? Re: Bird bones...don't you think it strange that dogs would scatter human bones but not the bird bones? If the bird bones are pretty much in a pile, so would human bones, I would think. but then again, I'm not a dog, despite what some people claim. Well, at least THAT kind of a dog! ************************************************************************** From Ric The Arundel workers could be the clam eaters, if they ever went to Kanawa Point. We don't really know how extensive their plantings were, but the only groves that survived were far from Kanawa Point. Ever see a dog eat a bird carcass? I've seen them with deer and woodchucks but I don't recall birds - but then I'm not a dog person. Rocket (my cat), on the other hand, is a bird's worst nightmare. Then again, he'd eat a castaway too. Doubtless we have numerous canine authorities (or rather, authorities on canines) on the forum who can enlighten us on this subject. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:05:13 EST From: Dan Subject: LOP 157/337 Although there is no evidence, does it seem reasonable that AE/FN attempted to navigate to a point on LOP 157/337 approximately 20-30 miles on the north side of Howland. Then when they turned right on LOP 157/337, it would be likely that not only would they hit land, but the land would be Howland, and not some land that had no people on it, like Nikumaroro. ************************************************************************** From Ric This is, of course, one of the great debates among Earhart researchers. My take on it is: 1. Yes, the technique was known to Noonan. 2. He did not always use it. 3. There is no need to use it if DF is available for the final fine-tuning of the navigation. 4. This flight anticipated the use of DF. 5. There is (as you say) no evidence that he used that method in this case. 6. At least one of Earhart's radio transmissions can be interpreted as evidence that he did NOT use it in this case. At 19:12 GMT she says "We must be on you but cannot see you..." which implies an attempt to navigate to a specific point. My opinion is that Noonan did not employ offset navigation in his attempt to find Howland. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:07:27 EST From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: Fred's salary << << You might try the Social Security Administration >> Ric, I worked for the SSA in Baltimore before I went into the USAF and they had microfilm of records going back to cave man days. How far back they have records now would be the question. >> Here is a blurb from the SSA site. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Q1: When did Social Security start? A: The Social Security Act was signed by FDR on 8/14/35. Taxes were collected for the first time in January 1937 and the first one-time, lump-sum payments were made that same month. Regular ongoing monthly benefits started in January 1940. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Since Fred was gone from Pan Am by that time, I doubt he signed up for it. Smooth Sailing, Ron Dawson 2126 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:26:02 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Water in the bottle >>From Ric >> >>I'm not sure that works. If it did, then any bottle left abandoned for a >>long enough time would have water in it. In my experience that is not the >>case. I suspect there may be some inclination to think an island in the central Pacific with all that water around would be humid -- conducive to condensation, slow evaporation, etc. I think I'm correct in believimg such a local is typically very dry -- low humidity, rapid evaporation, etc. I think I once knew why that is true but it escapes me now. LTM (Who used to know all that stuff) *************************************************************************** From Ric Perhaps the best indicator of how dry it is on Niku is the fact that aluminum on land and known to be at least 50 years old exhibits almost no corrosion. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:25:43 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: Amelia "Crusoe" Earhart As much as this "lived-on-until-1940" hypothesis has us all excited, I'm not yet convinced regarding several aspects of it. On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Richard E. Gillespie wrote: > < believe that was the case?>> > > Only because no stopper is mentioned. That doesn't say much to me. If I found a pen on the floor, I probably wouldn't bother recording whether or not it had a cap on it at the time - if I was going to note the event at all. Just because I might have written that I'd found a pen (but not described it in any more detail than that), doesn't mean I would be telling you that it had not had a cap at the time. > We also don't know that the bottle contained water when found or that it > was on its side. Kilts says it contained fresh water for drinking and > was found "beside the body." Gallagher says (on October 6, 1940) > "Benedictine" bottle but no indication of contents. Once again, just because there was "...no indication of contents" doesn't rule anything in or out, it just means we don't know either way. Given the excellent point (that another forum person already made) about the many variables associated with gain/loss of water from a bottle sitting out in the open for long periods, I don't think we should read very much into the state of the liquid that may or may not have been in it when found (even if we could establish what that condition was). > ...the castaway died in January 1940. Is that credible? Supposing that Amelia did survive for two-and-a-half years by herself on that island, it would tend to indicate a certain level of mastery with regards to fresh water collection, utilization of local flora and fauna for food, etc. Given all that, the big question in my mind is WHY, after all that successful time by herself, would she have presumably expired just shortly after the other folks arrived? Sure, it could have been a heart attack, or any number of other natural causes, but the timing seems peculiar to me. Also, if she was taken ill for a brief period before her death, wouldn't she have laid down well back in the shade, especially if she was loopy and didn't want to be found, instead of so close to the beach? (Unless I've been forming the wrong mental picture, I think you've described the castaway's bones as being between the water and the edge of the jungle.) > Could a weak and possibly round-the-bend castaway be languishing in the > bush on the southeast end of the island unbeknownst to all those people? If airplane wreckage near the Norwich City didn't catch their attention, and the castaway didn't want to be found, then it doesn't seem impossible to think that she could have concealed herself. The things that might have given her away would have been the remnants of clam shells, bird bones, and whatever fish she'd been able to catch. Maybe some coconut crabs even graced her "dinner table". > - the scattered skeleton that should not have been of interest to the dogs > who (perhaps) scattered it. Okay, so if we're going to presume that the recently arrived settlers' dogs were interested enough in Amelia's fresh remains to drag away some of her large bones, why wouldn't the dogs have completely eaten/removed the birds' remains, either first or around the same time. (Do dogs eat birds at all? I'm a cat owner, so let me know!) Also, what about the well-documented carnivorous tendencies of "Crabzilla" and his cohorts? Even if the crabs didn't touch the castaway's remains, wouldn't the birds have made a nice, light snack? Perhaps the crabs aren't in that area of the island, but to me, the idea of so much activity happening to the castaway' body, with so little interest in the adjacent birds, doesn't quite jive somehow. > - Gallagher's description of "birds killed" and "dead birds" at the site, > rather than bird bones. Dead people don't eat birds. If the people bones > are so ancient why aren't the birds reduced to bones? Let's be careful not to read too much into what was or was not said. Just because he described the birds as dead, doesn't automatically mean they were any more than skeletons at the time. Whether or not he chose to specifically mention the state of the deceased creatures is likely a similar case to my pen example above - the reader just can't tell either way from what was written. A few final points about these birds, assuming that Amelia caught them: What type of bird would they likely have been? Would there have been much good eating on them? How would she likely have gone about catching them? How elaborate would her equipment/technique have had to be for success? There is a lot of potential public fascination with the idea that she lived on for so long, (reporters would love to get their paws on this one!) but proving it would be a challenge indeed! LTM, (Who may be going batty, but is not reclusive!) David :-) ************************************************************************** From Ric Your points are well-taken. I'm not going to agressively defend the hypothesis because, as you say, it depends too much upon interpretations and possibilities rather than established facts. I'm just too much of a romantic to resist considering the idea. What kind of birds can you catch on Niku? The easiest to catch are the Red-tailed Tropic Birds who nest on the ground in the shade of the low-lying vegetation along the shore. You can literally walk right up to them and grab them by the neck ( I have done the former but not, of course, the latter). I did pick up a young Booby once and got roundly disciplined for it by his mom. Juvenile Frigates will sometimes hover within inches of your head as you walk along the beach and even bop you with their beak. Fairy Terns (known locally as "KiaKia" after the sound they make) will often flutter in front of your face as if asking to see your passport. In some respects it's a magical place and there is certainly no expertise or equipment required to catch birds there. I've never eaten any of the avian inhabitants but I can't imagine that they'd be very tasty unless you're really into fishy fowl. Could somebody hide out on Niku? Absolutely. Why might they die after having survived for more than two years? Any of a dozen reasons, infection and disease being the most probable. I wonder what kind of evidence we might find that would establish a time of death within, say, one year. Of course we can fantasize about a journal, but other than that, could we carbon date a tooth to that tolerance? Or a bird bone? We know there are bird bones at the 1996 Site right now. Suppose we were able to carbon date one of those bones and learned that the bird had died after 1937 but before 1939. Wouldn't THAT be interesting? What kind of tolerances are obtainable from carbon dating these days? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:27:01 EST From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Fred's salary << Granted that Roosevelt's first term was decidedely Neolithic, I wonder if they were up to speed by 1936/37.>> I think so, Ric. My dad went to work for SSA in 1938. We moved from Ohio to Baltimore that yeqr so my dad could take the job with an unheard of fabulous salary of $1900 a year. We were in hog heaven. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:31:05 EST From: John Dipi Subject: Re: Fred and Musick There is a monument on Canton Island dedicated to EDWIN MUSICK ************************************************************************* From Ric Yup. Captain Ed was killed in the explosion of a Sikorsky S-42B off Samoa while pioneering the South Pacific route for PAA. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:32:39 EST From: John Dipi Subject: Re: clams In my 5 months on CANTON we went out on the reef and got some large clams pried open with our bayonet thinking that we would find a pearl but it never happened. We did find an assortment of beautiful shells. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:39:21 EST From: Roger Kelley Subject: Hair Rick wrote: "an anecdotal account of a person on Nikumaroro in the early days of the settlement seeing a tall, fair-skinned woman with long hair back in the bush." Does anyone know the approximate time span between the anecdotal sighting of Nei and the date of AE's final flight? How long was Nei's hair? How long would it take for AE's hair to grow to the same length as Nei's? What gives wings to my imagination is the question, "How long could two people (or one person) survive on the contents of the supply cache left near the Norwich City?" LTM, Roger Kelley, #2112 ************************************************************************** From Ric Well, let's see. The anecdotal sighting could not have happened before April 1939 when the first families of the workers arrived on the island, and could not have happened before roughly April of 1940 when the work party allegedly first found the skull. AE had pretty short hair when last seen in July 1937. How much will a person's hair grow in (ballpark) two years? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:44:10 EST From: Ken Feder Subject: Carbon dating Radiocarbon dating would not be of any help here for two primary reasons: 1. the error factor is far too great; even with the most precise method available, accelerator mass spectrometry, we're still talking decades and 2. Even if the error factor wasn't an issue, the Niku materials are just way too recent for carbon dating. The half life of radiocarbon (carbon-14) is 5,730 years. 1939 is only 61 years ago (just a little more than 1% of the halflife). Since radioactive decay is a statistical phenomenon, that's simply not enough time; so little of the c-14 has decayed, an accurate estimate of age based on how much has decayed would be impossible. The major radiocarbon labs tell you that anything less than a couple of hundred years old is simply too young (and anything much over 40,000 or 50,000 years is too old, though dates up to 70,000 are theoretically possible). Ken Feder ************************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Ken. Oh well. Hey, anybody ever wonder what really happened to Helen of Troy? *************************************************************************** From Randy Jacobson Carbon dating is not precise down to a year or two, and the technique is not particularly well regarded for times less than 100 years of age. There are other dating techniques, however, that can be used, but are not typically based upon organic content. ************************************************************************ From Ric Like what? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:49:02 EST From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle The apparition story might also have been deliberately developed and circulated by Teng Koata and/or his wife as a means to present the discovery of the castaway bones in a positive way, to counteract mystical fears among the work group after the skeletized remains were found. william 2243 ************************************************************************* From Ric Possibly, but in the two versions of the apparition story we've heard there is no connection to the bone story and in the many versions we've heard of the bone story there is no mention of an apparition. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:53:59 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: IQ tests >From Ric > >Sounds like an IQ test. Like when the air traffic controller says >"Unidentified aircraft that just violated restricted airspace, please say >your N number." Or like when you're going thru the baggage check at your local friendly airport and the security personnel ask you if anyone has put anything in your baggage without your knowledge! Like you would KNOW if anything was put in your baggage WITHOUT your KNOWLEDGE? DUH! LTM Blue Skies Dave Bush ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:57:01 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle >From Ric > >Like I said, it only works if Fred's dead and AE is totally round the bend >and hiding from discovery. Maybe the various factors which make it appear >that the castaway had not been dead all that long before the site was found >are illusory. Maybe not. I'm just trying to come up with a scenario that >fits what may be facts. it's certainly not worth being taken very seriously- >yet. FRED - DEAD? I was thinking about that. Remember that the island chief's wife said that she saw the spirit (which I can't spell) with two children? Could it be that they were more than an apparition and Fred and AE had children? If so, were those infant graves you found really native children? Were they tested to see if they were polynesian or european? Also, it is very easy to miss other people in a sparsely populated area by feet and not see or him them due to the noise from the waves, birds, wind, etc. Campfires - depends on where they were built and how big. Were they bonfires or small cooking fires. Certainly weren't used for warmth in the tropics, so did they even cook or have fires at night? As I have mentioned in a previous post, when searchers are looking for lost children in the woods, they often walk right past them without seeing them - and they are there specifically to find someone they know is missing. Someone not looking for someone might be even more prone to totally miss even signs they do see - dismissing them as belonging to something else. I don't know if AE/FN survived any length of time, but I do know that it is possible, but unlikely. But how many people have managed to live and thrive in unlikely circumstances. As you have stated, it was reported that there were dead birds and fish next to one of the skeletons. If the skeleton is there, why aren't the birds and fish skeletonized? Maybe someone else, still alive, but somewhat looney, still sits down to eat next to their one and only ally on that deserted island! So the dead birds and fish didn't belong to the skeleton, but to the deceased friend who is still alive! LTM, Blue Skies, Dave Bush #2200 (?) *************************************************************************** From Ric I had to go and shoot off my big mouth. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:29:20 EST From: Margot Still Subject: Cats n' dogs Aaarrgghhhh a CAT person! (Actually I like cats.) Whatdya want to know about dogs eating birds? ************************************************************************** From Ric Being owned by a cat is not necessarilly the same thing as being a cat person. My dog questions are: Do dogs eat bird carrion? If given a choice between mammal carrion and bird carrion, do they have a preference? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:31:52 EST From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: LOP 157/337 << My opinion is that Noonan did not employ offset navigation in his attempt to find Howland. >> Ric, I suspect you are correct but I think it may have had more to do with his navigation than DF. The only comment I've seen on their DF attempts was that it either didn't work or there were problems with it. Coasting into Africa I recall (accurately I hope) there was a problem with it and then on the test hop out of Lae it didn't work and I think AE thought it was because she was too close in. In any case I believe FN had what he believed to be highly reliable fixes and if so he would have headed straight fot Howland. If they didn't see it he would have turned on the LOP and flown a few minutes (probably SE), long enough to shoot a quick sun line and had AE do a standard rate turn left or right to parallel course to the NE. The smart thing to have done is just that, to cover his target area and STILL be able to plot what they were doing so as to not get lost. CIRCLING would have been a navigation disaster. It's easy to compute what his turning radius would be at a given air speed to see how wide those tracks could have been. Even at 130K they would only be a mile or two apart depending on whether they used a 3 minute turn or a 1 1/2 minute turn. Somebody check that as it's off the top of my head. If, for example, they flew to the erroneous Howland position, turned right, flew for a few minutes and then turned LEFT to head NE you can see roughly how far east of Howland they might have been. Noonan might have then again turned to the east to 157=BA before working their way back to the west in the same manner. They should have erred to the east first so they would be between the sun and Howland working back to the west. On each leg FN could recheck his position if weather permitted. Sure sounds logical sitting here comfy in my home in the year 2000. Alan #2329 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:42:42 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Carbon dating One can date relatively early historical material with thermoluminescence, if the material has been out of the sunlight; with certain radioactive materials based upon lead and Uranium; Carbon 14 to Carbon 12 ratios with known calibration curves for the past 100 years, etc., etc., etc. Most of these have real problems with calibrations and assumptions. That is why historians and archeologists abound! ************************************************************************** From Ric Sounds like we'll just have to keep abounding. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:59:52 EST From: Frank Westlake Subject: Lambrecht Photo of Gardner Is. Has the Lambrect photo been analyzed yet? In the copy I'm looking at there appears to be one of Lambrect's aircraft about 500 feet above the northwest corner of Gardner. This isn't the right position for either wreck and it actually appears to be airborne. I just finished reading nearly everything available on the web site and saw no reference to this object. If this is an aircraft it may answer the two questions "when was the photo taken" and "at what altitude did they fly?" Frank Westlake *************************************************************************** From Ric That's a flaw or a speck of dust, not an aircraft. It's way too big. The size of things on that island is very deceiving. An O3U-3 flying along the stretch of beach closest to the camera plane would be very hard to see. A person standing on that beach would be invisible. (the Lambrecht photo is at: http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Documents/Lambrecht_Photo.html) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:01:25 EST From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle >...but in the two versions of the apparition story we've heard there > is no connection to the bone story and in the many versions we've heard of > the bone story there is no mention of an apparition. Which, of course, tends to reinforce the idea that the apparition story has at best a tenuous connection with the castaways (and reality). william 2243 ************************************************************************** From Ric Agreed. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:39:03 EST From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Hair > How much will a person's hair grow in (ballpark) two years? Depending on health, age, genetics, and other factors, on average, between 1/4 and 1/2 inch per month, which could yield 6-12 inches of hair in two years. On a woman who started with cropped hair like hers, this would make the hair approximately shoulder length-- not what I would readily interpret as being long hair on a woman, as described by another woman. william 2243 *************************************************************************** From Ric Mrs. Koata (via Laxton) describes her as "a tall fair woman with long dark hair falling to the ground about her." Tall and fair is good and if AE's hair was long it would probably look fairly dark, but this sounds more like Cousin It. Photos of Gilbertese women on Niku in 1944 show that most kept their hair pulled back tightly. One woman's hair is almost shoulder length. Clearly, Mrs. Koata's story as rendered by Laxton is very fanciful. The attendants and the prophecy make it sound very much like a vision of The Virgin Mary (Our Lady of the Scaevola?). The version told to Dirk Ballendorf by Erenite Kiron in the Solomons in 1995 (which we have on videotape) is much more matter-of-fact and simply says that there is a place on the island called "MooRAHB" (which may be the place sacred to Nei Manginibuka we've heard about called Niurabo) where a woman (not named) saw a female ghost (no mention of Nei Manganibuka) wearing a grass skirt and with a face that was very blank. Although ghosts ("anti" pronounced "ahns") were a big concern among the Gilbertese, this is the only ghost story we've heard about Nikumaroro. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:43:01 EST From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: IQ tests Dave Bush wrote >Like you would KNOW if anything was put in >your baggage WITHOUT your KNOWLEDGE? Actually, they ask if you (the airline passenger) packed your own bags, if the bags have been in your control since you packed them, and if anyone asked you to carry anything on the plane for them-- all things that someone should be able to answer without telepathic ability . william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:44:13 EST From: Suzanne Subject: SSA Thanks to the Social Security Web Page www.ssa.gov I have the following information: FDR signs the Social Security Bill into Law August 14, 1935 Baltimore office for Record Keeping Opens November 9, 1936 First applications for benefits filed January, 1937 LTM, Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:49:46 EST From: Suzanne Subject: Re: Hair According to my handy Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia in humans short hair grows at an average of 3/4 of an inch per month until it reaches a foot long. At that time the rate of growth is reduced by 1/2. In two years, assuming Amelia's was about 3 inches to start, she would have hair approximately 16.5 inches long. Below I am, as Sr. Alma Mary used to say. "showing my work". First year: .75 multiplied by 12 months = 9 inches. 9 + 3 = 12 inches at the end of the first year. Second year growing at half the rate 9 divided by 2 = 4.5 inches. 12 + 4.5 = 16.5 inches approximate total length of hair at the end of the second year. LTM who may or may not have had long hair, Suzanne *************************************************************************** From Ric I wonder how much age, climate and nutrition effect rate of hair growth? Probably not enough to make a huge difference. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:55:10 EST From: David Subject: Re: Hair On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Richard E. Gillespie wrote: > AE had pretty short hair when last seen in July 1937. How much will a > person's hair grow in (ballpark) two years? If I'm not mistaken, I thought I'd read somewhere that a person's hair grows about six inches per year, (admittedly, I can't quote the source off hand) which would mean that her hair might have been almost a foot longer than in the last known photos. Wouldn't that put it down to between the bottom of her shoulder blades or so? Next question is: If the chief's wife claimed that the stranger had "long hair", then does this potential length jive with the pacific islanders' definition of long hair, or is that still more on the medium end of things? Then again, even if she was alive, would her hair always grow normally the whole time, or would a potentially nutrient-depleted diet have caused it to ever slow down or stop growing altogether? Are there any medical types out there who can answer this one? Also, what about the colour of her hair (was it somewhat dark blonde, as I've always imagined?) and would the native woman have remembered the colour as unique from anything else she would likely have seen before? (I ask because it's always hard to tell from only black and white photos!) Of course, after two years without soap, her hair might have become somewhat darker and matted from grime. Then again, after lots of bright sunlight, it may have become bleached and even lighter than it had ever been before. What do people think of these possibilities? Finally, this somewhat outlandish idea of the infants' graves being somehow connected to AE has got me wondering: Shouldn't there be some paper record of for whom and when they were dug? Surely we could rule out a certain amount of ambiguity without having to apply for permission to exhume and forensically examine them? Just in case a likely sample of something (European children's bones, teeth from the 1996 site, etc.) should ever turn up in future, do we have any way of obtaining a known sample of AE's DNA for comparison? (Lock of hair, baby teeth in a jar, etc.) LTM, (Who keeps her hair trimmed, but doesn't keep the trimmings!) David :-) *************************************************************************** From Ric The rate-of-hair-growth question has been answered quite precisely by Suzanne. We know of no paper records of deaths and burials on Niku. Wish we did. A sample of Earhart's mitochondrial DNA should (in theory) be easily obtainable from living female relatives. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:57:08 EST From: Frank Westlake Subject: Itasca's Smoke Screen I remember reading something many years ago about the use of smoke screens and smoke screen tactics during WWII. It's been so long that I may be confusing the memory with something else, but I recall that smoke screens were created with a device that was placed on the fantail of a ship. I don't recall that this device was very large or complex, I think it was shorter than knee-high and used oil to create a smoky mist. Does anyone else have recollections of such a device? Did it exist prior to WWII? Do the Itasca's logs show that their smoke originated from their boilers, or could it have originated from such a device? Frank Westlake ************************************************************************** From Ric You're talking about a Smoke Generator. There is no indication that Itasca had one. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:11:03 EST From: Jim W. Subject: Search Radar NASA is testing a synthetic aperture radar for searches. Their "engineers use a Douglas DC-8 with synthetic aperture radar (large panels on side of aircraft) that will search large areas through cloud cover, at night, and through vegetation." "NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center is working on a "beaconless" search-and-rescue aircraft equipped with synthetic aperture radar. The system could be used to find aircraft that crash on land. The advantage to radar is that it can be used through cloud cover, at night, and through vegetation. The technology successfully located a crash site in a remote region of Montana last year after rescuers had called off search efforts. To test the new method, simulated airplane wreckage sites have been created in North Carolina, Maine, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Alaska, and Oregon. Wreckage from a long-lost aircraft in Montana was found during testing." The technology was not ready for deployment as of early last fall. When this radar is ready for use it may have practical application for radar mapping Niku. Although it is not described as ground penetrating radar, test results indicate it works well in vegetation. Maybe it would save quite a lot of time, as well as expense, by better detailing and locating potential sites for ground archaeological search. Of course it would be expensive to use initially but the cost savings through a more specific and efficient ground search may be the result. Sure would be nice if the radar system tests out well and is reasonably cost effective. Jim W. ************************************************************************** From Ric We struggled with this for a long time and it always comes down to a question of resolution. The big impetus to develop technology that will find downed aircraft is, of course, centered around SAR operations - saving lives. This naturally assumes that most of the aircraft will be present - even if in kit format. In archaeological applications we're usually looking for relatively small objects. The most promising (but still not avaialble to us) technology now being developed is airborne synthetic aperture radar designed to help map minefields. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:20:12 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Climate Over the period of the 5 months, what was the average weather like? Dry? Humid? Variable? Might be interesting to know... RossD ************************************************************************** From Ric I'm not sure which 5 months you mean. 1938 saw one of the worst droughts the Phoenix Group ever experienced. When Maude and Bevington visited Niku in October of 1937 the place was quite lush. When Maude returned with the first colonists in December of 1938 he was appalled at how withered and dry the island had become. Anyone trying to survive on the island during that period would have a tough time. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:27:47 EST From: Frank Westlake Subject: Various Variation Randy Jacobson wrote: "Noonan knows that they can only afford to run up the line (337) for a little way and he probably has AE fly that course (348 magnetic) while she tries to use the loop. By the time AE makes the final transmission heard by Itasca at 2013GMT, Noonan has had her reverse course to 168 magnetic." I believe the magnetic courses would be 332/132. I found a section of a digitized navigation chart covering Howland and the compass rose indicates that the variation was 10°30'E in 1986 and that the annual decrease is 5'. I calculate (1986-1937)*5'+10°30'E as 14°35'E. So the magnetic courses would be 157°T-14°35'=142°25'M and 337°T-14°35'=332°25'M. Frank Westlake *************************************************************************** From Ric Well, I disagree with both of ya. The charts prepared for Earhart's first world flight attempt by Clarence Williams show that he used a variation of 9 degrees East which would make it 346 and 166. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:29:12 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Hair Well, how accurate was the report on the length of the hair? I remember when I went on my first deer hunt and I got the deer in my sights. I would have sworn that it had a big rack, but it was a first year buck - tiny pinpoint horns, not a big rack. How long was the hair of the person or the appartion - we will never know for sure, even if an original drawing done from the person's memory is found. LTM, Blue Skies, Dave Bush ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:31:15 EST From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Carbon dating >From Ric > >Thanks Ken. Oh well. Hey, anybody ever wonder what really happened to >Helen of Troy? Yeah, she moved to Montana and that's where we got Helen o' Montana. LTM - Love to Montana (the state, not the mini-van) Blue Skies Dave Bush ************************************************************************* From Ric Ask a stupid question....... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:44:51 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Two Shoe Sizes The following appeared recently on the Forum: >We do know that Earhart's feet were quite narrow. But what of the >discrepancy between Gallagher's "probably size 10" and Kilts' "size nine >narrow"?... > >...Kilts' information about the shoe came from his informant. The > >fact that his informant's version of the shoe size is different from >Gallagher's is interesting and seems to indicate that there was some >disagreement even among the people on the island as to the shoes probable >size, but not its gender. I think there are two apparent sources for reported the shoe sizes 1) Gallagher's field estimate [obviously] and 2) the results of a detailed analysis that was most likely done in Fiji. Lets look at this a little closer. Gallagher examines the shoe artifact(s) on Gardner Island in the later part of 1940 and makes a field estimate of the size..... quoting Gallagher in part ".......probably size 10" [British Size 10]. The obvious reference tool for his estimate would have been his own shoes. He probably compared the shoes he was wearing to the remains of the shoe artifact(s) and made his best guess. It would have been easy for him to have been off by a half size or so even if the shoe(s) was in very good condition (which it seems it wasn't). In May 1941, Gallagher returns to the headquarters office in Fiji (WPHC) where the artifacts now reside. We know from the Fiji WPHC documents that various people (including Gallagher) undoubtedly examined the artifacts in some detail in Fiji. It is likely that the officials in Fiji made an attempt to nail down the size of the shoe from which Gallagher made his field estimate. The study of the artifacts in Fiji is most likely the time at which the "Size 9 Narrow, American Kind" determination was made. Gallagher and Dr. Macpherson then return to Gardner in September of 1941 and deliver the results of the analysis of the bones and artifacts (including the shoes) to the very curious natives. They tell the natives the shoe appeared to be an American kind, size 9 narrow. That information is subsequently passed from the informant to Kilts. I don't think there was any disagreement amongst the people on the island as to the shoe size. They are simply relating what Gallagher and/or Macpherson have told them. The size estimate evolves over time as the analysis moves from a field estimate to a more rigorous examination in Fiji and the subsequent return of the infomation to Gardner in Sept. of 1941. LTM Kenton Spading ************************************************************************** From Ric Sounds like a reasonable hypothesis. What puzzles (or perhaps disappoints) me is how Gallagher caves in and follows the party line once he is back in Fiji. On July 3, 1941 (two days after Dr. Steenson records his comments about the shoe parts and corks with brass chains) Gallagher writes a note to the file: "The Secretary, I have read the contents of this file with great interest. It does look as if the skeleton was that of some unfortunate native castaway and the sextant box and other curious articles found nearby the remains are quite possibly a few of his precious possessions which he managed to save. 2. There was no evidence of any attempt to dig a well and the wretched man presumably died of thirst. Less than two miles away there is a a small grove of coconut trees which would have been sufficient to keep him alive if he had only found it. He was separated from those trees, however, by an inpenetrable (sic)belt of bush. GBG" Aw c'mom Irish! An unfortunate native castaway collecting precious corks with brass chains and bits of shoe soles? LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:47:10 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Aeroplane Monthly << Next time these guys can go out and buy their copies themselves. >> Herman, I also apologize. I just couldn't resist Ameba Earhart. Dan Postellon 32263 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:50:07 EST From: Phil Tanner Subject: Official Website of the Republic of the Howland and Baker Islands Try this link for an elaborate fantasy based on an "alternate history" for Howland and Baker. Apparently the genre is "a way of exploring what might have happened if some aspect of the past had turned out differently". The "fictional timeline" is predicated on a successful Earhart flight prompting a fictional Texas billionaire to buy and colonize the island post-war, the author told New Zealand radio. Harmless fun, I suppose. http://www.metro2000.net/~stabbott/Visithowlandbaker.htm <> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:22:20 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: Hair growth Ric said: AE had pretty short hair when last seen in July 1937. How much will a person's hair grow in (ballpark) two years? Personal experience: I don't know how much it would grow in a ballpark (syntactical problem here?) but during normal indoor and outdoor activity my near-G.I. hair cut grew out to about 1-2 inches below my shoulders between Aug. 1972 and Dec. 1974, when I had to get it trimmed for a (UGH!) job interview. Since then it has gotten even shorter and at times disappeared all together. LTM, who has good hair genes Dennis O. McGee #0149CE ************************************************************************* From Ric Yeah, there was a real epidemic of hair growth in those years. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:35:35 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: Two Shoe Sizes Ric, was Gallagher's "note to the file" that you mention a note that he basically stuck in the file to close the matter intending for no one in particular to read except if they read the file, or was it actually a note meant to be sent to someone ("To the Secretary....")? ************************************************************************* From Ric The way the system worked was that when a matter worthy of a file (for example, the discovery of human remains on Gardner Island) came up, a file was started. In the front of the file was a chronological diary of handwritten, and sometimes typed, notations by various people who looked at the file and wished to comment on something. Telegrams and letters that came in, or copies of correspondence that was sent out referring to the subject of the file were put in the file and "logged in" on the diary. Gallagher's note of July 3rd, 1941 was a hand-printed entry in the diary. Anyone subsequently reviewing the file would be able to read his note, although it was specifically addressed to The Secretary (Vaskess). It was his way of officially stating his opinion. Of course, very few people had acces to this file. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:38:01 EST From: Margot Still Subject: Re: Cats n' dogs Yes, dogs will eat carrion, but only very hungry dogs. Most dogs will roll in it for the scent. Having trained Labrador retrievers I can tell you that well fed dogs will not eat the birds they retrieve, but they will chomp or "mouth" the bird, if they have not been properly trained, destroying it for purposes of mounting it or saving it for your own table. Dogs that are desperate for something to eat will eat a bird, but will shake it fiercely in an attempt to rid it of feathers. They will eat it almost in its entirety, including bones, but will not eat feathers if they can avoid it. I cannot answer the question on preference at this time. I'll have to poll my dogs and get back to you. LTM (who also owns a Lab) MStill 2332 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:18:16 EST From: Margot Still Subject: Rate of hair growth Actually, you would be suprised. If you eat a diet high in protein, your hair grows faster, is much thicker, and is much healthier. This is also true of your fingernails. ************************************************************************** From Ric How about a diet of Benedictine, seabirds, turtles and clams? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:23:20 EST From: Frank Westlake Subject: Re: Lambrecht Photo of Gardner Is. Thank you. I'm not convinced because the dot doesn't appear to be in the foreground as do other visible defects, but I guess I'll have to accept your statement. Frank Westlake ************************************************************************** From Ric I'm sure that if you could see an actual print of the photo you'd feel better. The dot is quite clearly on the surface of the neg. The internet is a wonderful means of mass communication, but it does have its limitations. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:29:18 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Lambrecht Photo of Gardner Is. If the spot is actually above the beach, then I agree, it's way to far away to be another plane. It wouldn't be a speck of dust, though, because that would show up as a white spot, not dark. It could be another aircraft a lot closer to the camera, though, and at a higher altitude. We have no way of telling how far away the object really is; if it really is an object... Still could be a flaw. ltm jon 2266 ************************************************************************** From Ric You'll have to trust me on one this one guys. It's just a big ol' round black dot. I would LOVE for it to be something else, but it ain't. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:37:47 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Itasca's Smoke Screen I'm still researching this, but USCG museum advises me that the Lake Class cutters, of which Itasca was one, were not equipped with smoke generators when they were built. They advise it could have had one added later, but I have not pursued this yet through the archives. ltm, jon 2266 *************************************************************************** From Ric I can't imagine why they would have smoke generators. Smoke screens are a naval defensive tool. At that time the Coast Guard was part of the Treasury Department and was most often involved in anti-smuggling operations. In the Pacific, Itasca was supporting Dept. of Interior "colonizing" activities which were aimed at enhancing American commercial interests. Only much later during WWII did the Navy come under the War Department and engage in naval-type operations. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:48:30 EST From: Frank Westlake Subject: Re: Various Variation that would show if the variation varied significantly between Lae and Howland? >From Ric > >Well, I disagree with both of ya. The charts prepared for Earhart's >first world flight attempt by Clarence Williams show that he used a >variation of 9 degrees East which would make it 346 and 166. Going from True to Magnetic you subtract East, so a variation of 9°E makes the courses 328/148. Why did he use a variation of 9°E when a 1986 chart of the area indicates that it would have been 14°35'E? Which is correct? You say "The charts ... show that he used a variation of 9 degrees East...." Was that a hand written notation or was that the variation indicated for the chart? Does anyone have a chart or charts that would show if the variation varied significantly between Lae and Howland? I spend several hours on the Internet looking for charts, new or old, of that area of the Pacific with no success. Frank Westlake *************************************************************************** From Ric <> Ooops. You're right. <> Because he didn't see the 1986 chart? Any chance that was 5" of change, not 5'? <> Clarence Williams' charts were hand-drawn sketch maps specifically for AE's use. <> Williams' chart for the Howland/Lae leg shows 9 degrees Variation near Howland, 7.5 degrees near the midpoint, and 6 degrees near Lae. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:56:27 EST From: Ron Bright Subject: AE's voice I hate to dwell on a subject but your answers to the sound of Amelia's voice during her last transmission are contradictory.I think it is an important clue on what was going on inside the cabin and the decisions made by AE and FN. In my characterizaton of Amelia's voice during the 0843 transmission (in a posting on 28 Jan )I said in essence she was yelling frantically,almost incoherently into the mike. You replied that she was not "yelling frantically and incoherently..." But in the very next sentence you quote Capt Thompson describing her voice as "hurried,frantic...not complete...and that toward the end Earhart talked so rapidly as to be almost incoherent." You believe that Capt Thompson was biased but others in the radio room heard the same message-one of which was Leo Bellarts. And for some reason you stated that Chief Bellarts "mentioned nothing about the way Earhart"s voice sounded in Elgen Longs interview in l973. Not so. After my interview of Leo Bellarts Jr., indicating his recollection of his dad's description was near "hysterical" but he defered to his father 's description in l973 and you quoted Long interview: "...but I'll tell you,you could hear her voice all over the shack and even outside the shack (pretty loud)...real lound and clear. I mean it...we heard her quite a few times... but that last one, I'm telling you, it sounded as if she would have broken out in a scream...she was about ready to break into tears and go into hysterics...thats exactly the way I'd describe her voice now. I'll never forget it." That is powerful first hand testimony you must respect. Now I submit that that kind of tenor and emotion to AE's voice certainly suggested an emergency and deductively indicative of her perilous situation at 0844- lost, looking for Howland ,gas running low,and now forced into the decision of continuing to look for lHowland or begin a contingency plan. Whether she then calmly regained her composure and headed for a contingency landing area southeast in the Phoenix Is on that LOP and crashing on or near NIKU is,of course, the mystery TIGHAR is trying to unravel. For you airplance crash investigators, voice analysis and content,etc, must be quite valuable in determining aspects of a pilots situation and behavior. Thompson and Bellart, the two reporters, and others in that radio room are the next best think to a cockpit recorder. (By the way were any of her transmissions recorded?) Are any of the reporters (AP and UP) releases available ? LTM Ron Bright *************************************************************************** From Ric I was obviously mistaken when I originally said that Bellarts mentioned nothing about the way Earhart"s voice sounded in Elgen Long's interview in l973. It's a very long interview and the subjects covered skip around quite a bit. I simply missed the reference the first time I looked for one. Okay, so the issue at hand is: What primary source, contemporaneous evidence is there which describes how Earhart's voice sounded during the last transmission heard by Itasca? First question - What primary, contemporaneous sources are there which describe what happened that morning? Well, the most contemporaneous, virtually real-time sources are the two radio logs kept aboard the Itasca and the log kept by Ciprianni on Howland. None of them mention anything about the quality of her voice except that the later transmissions were heard at Strength 5. The next closest sources are the transmissions sent out by Itasca informing headquarters about what happened. None of those mention anything about how her voice sounded. The first reference I could find was by the United Press reporter aboard Itasca who filed his report at 15:45 Hawaii Standard Time on July 2nd after the search was well underway. He said that in her last message "her voice sounded very tired, anxious, almost breaking." The other two reporters who filed stories earlier made no mention of how her voice sounded. Bottom line: The first mention of Earhart's voice is by a newspaper reporter in a story filed many hours later. Clearly, Earhart's perceived emotional state was not deemed worthy of mention by official sources at the time of the disappearance. As for Bellarts' 1973 story being "powerful first hand testimony", it's anecdote - nothing more, nothing less - and no more worthy of respect than any other reminiscence. It's an old memory, colored by many years of telling and retelling. Maybe it's accurate, maybe it's not. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:41:20 EST From: Frank Westlake Subject: Re: Lambrecht Photo of Gardner Is. >From Ric >I'm sure that if you could see an actual print of the photo you'd feel >better. Maybe so. I resampled the image and sharpened it quite a bit and the dot turned into a blur with this in the middle of it (without the breaks in construction): | ----|---- ----|---- | (fixed pitch font required) It looks like a bi-wing aircraft to me, but I suppose it could be just a product of the enhancement. I have no experience it this area. Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:48:23 EST From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Various Variation Ric, for what it is worth I will repost the note I received from the Canadian government site regarding variation at Howland in 1937. I recognize that what it actually was or even what it now computes to have been does not necessarily equate to what was used by FN. ************************ Alan, The magnetic declination at your coordinates in 1937 was 9° 29' E. For comparison, the current declination is 10° 02' E, so there hasn't been much of a change. Regards Larry Newitt ****************************** Alan #2329 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:49:47 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Various Variation that would show if the variation varied Magnetic variations are variable! Hahaha! They are actually due to fluctuations in the Earth's fluid core, and slowly change. Every decade (at the xxx0 year), a new map is created, and changes/year are provided to describe the past decade, and hopefully into the future. One should never go past ten years for magnetic variation projections. I have access to a true 1937 map, not based upon the 1930 measurements, and Williams' values were correct. Map provided in a book published by the Carnegie Institute of Terrestial Magnetism. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:51:29 EST From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Rate of hair growth It is true that diet and environment (including stress), as well as age and physical health, have a big impact on hair growth. I don't think one can get terribly precise in a hair growth estimate for a castaway on Gardner in the late 30s (too many variables), other than to say that in two years the longest the hair would have grown, for someone starting with hair the length of AE's, would have been around shoulder length. william 2243 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:02:41 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Irish Was Gerald Gallagher ever referred to as "Irish" other than by members of TIGHAR or this forum? Inquiring minds wish to know... Randy Jacobson ************************************************************************** From Ric Nicknames were apparently very much the thing in the Western Pacific High Commission. Gerald Gallagher was known among his fellow Colonial Service officers as "Irish." (He even signed informal notes that way.) Dr. Duncan MacPherson was "Jock." Eric Bevington was "Erb" (his initials). Patrick MacDonald was "Paddy." Ian Thomson was "Mungo." etc. etc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:06:40 EST From: Frank Westlake Subject: Re: Variation From Ric: >Because he didn't see the 1986 chart? Did I word it poorly? (From Ric: No. I was just being a smartass. Sorry) From Ric: >Any chance that was 5" of change, not 5'? From Frank: There's a slim chance. I don't have access to a paper chart so I'm using a digitized portion available at the University of Texas . The rose on the chart of Howland reads ANNUAL DECREASE 5 but the chart of Baker reads ANNUAL DECREASE 5'. Since it's a digitized copy it could have easily been altered. Can anyone here with a paper chart confirm 5'? If Noonan used a variation of 9'E when it was actually, let's say 14°35'E as I calculate it, then his actual course would've been 5° south of what he thought he was flying. Somebody please check that, I've been staring at numbers too long today. It's interesting that the axis of Howland is oriented very nearly on the line 337/157. I'm working out a formula to determine what the visible profile would be at various distances and altitudes on that line. A rough guess is that it would appear as long as it is wide. Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:07:54 EST From: Ty Sundstrom Subject: Re: Various Variation Aviation memorabilia collector/dealer Jon Aldrich of Groveland, California, I believe may have the vintage charts you are looking for. I saw prewar charts of the Pacific in his collection when I was looking for a few vintage items of Pacific Rim origin for a client from Hong Kong some time back. I also know that the variation changes with time as can be witnessed by charts California for the last sixty years that I have. Ty N. Sundstrom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:14:26 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Rug Rats of Niku <> TIGHAR meets the Blue Lagoon. amck ************************************************************************* From Ric Sounds like a sequel to Jane Mendelsohn's immortal work "I Was Amelia Earhart." Maybe call it. "Nutiran, Aukeraime, and South Park." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:37:19 EST From: Hugh Grahama Subject: Was Amelia tearful? ------Let me see, we are discussing how long AE's hair would be after two years' hiding on Niku, because two natives have recounted seeing an apparition of a fair, long-haired lady, yet we are questioning what two trained observers(Bellarts & UP reporter) heard on the Itasca's radio which is a predictably apprehensive AE. What is wrong with this story? LTM(who thinks a military radio operator's anecdote is more reliable than natives' ghost stories), HAG 2201. ************************************************************************** From Ric You raise a point that is fundamental to the investigative process. We start from the premise that all anecdote is suspect because the human memory is fallible. A military radio operator's anecdote is NOT automatically more reliable than natives' ghost stories. We examine all recollections to see if there is hard evidence to corroborate them, recognizing that culture predjudices inevitably color a person's observations and impressions. A Gilbertese colonist on Gardner Island is going to relate an unusual event to preconceived notions about how the world works (i.e. ghosts are a fact of life). We inquire about how fast hair grows in order to try to assess a possible alternative explanation. A Coast Guardsman aboard Itasca in 1937 is, likewise, going to relate an unusual event to preconceived notions he has about how the world works (i.e. women get panicky). We look at the available sources and assess Earhart's known actions in order to try to assess a possible alternative explanation. In the first case, we find that the known rate of human hair growth makes it virtually impossible for Earhart's hair to have reached the length described in Laxton's version of the ghost story. Either his version of the story is embellished or it was not Amelia. In the second case, the fact that Earhart's radio transmission was made at her scheduled time and the reported content of the message seems entirely rational, plus the fact that allegatons about her emotional state apparently did not become part of the story until later, tend to make that part of the tale no more beleivable than Mrs. Koata actually seeing Nei Manganibuka. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:39:09 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: LOP 157/337 I haven't been in a position to do my little Island spotting check (crystal clear skies first thing in the morning) yet, but I did have an interesting flight a week ago. We had to fly 20 miles out to an island, 30 miles to another then 50 miles back over water. There is an island on the way back about the size of Howland, but much higher. Cloud cover was about 2/8 and when we left the ground the sky looked beautifully clear. Once in the air though, the light haze and the low angle of the sun ahead of us meant that at sea the Island didn't come into view until we were almost on it. At 1500 feet a 3 mile wide (from our approach angle) island was invisible (partly below the horizon)until we got to around 20 miles. This intrigues me, so as soon as I can justify the time I'll steal one of the planes and have a look on a clear morning. It's pretty much irrelevant, but I for one would like to know just how far you can pick an island the size of Howland in really clear conditions. That said, the Itasca report was that 30% of the sky was covered by cloud. I just went out and looked at 30% cloud cover - it's a heck of a lot of white bits! RossD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:40:20 EST From: Suzanne Subject: Re: fastest rate of hair growth In the same Encarta Encyclopedia article on hair it stated that the fastest rate of hair growth occurs in women 16-24 years old. It didn't explain why. LTM Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:41:07 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Climate Sorry, the question was to John Dipi in reply to his post about being 5 months on Canton. RossD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:44:20 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Various Variation The variation (including the annual change) on the chart is relevant to that specific chart. The variation will always be about 9deg E (or whatever) on a giver chart for the area. The only time the annual change is used is if you are using a chart from 1937 to navigate in 1986 or 2000. In that case you'll need to calculate the difference over the years. If you are using a recent chart, then you'll still be working off the declared variation because the grid on the chart will be aligned for the variation each time the chart is updated. RossD *************************************************************************** From Ric I think we all understand that part. The question is why the back-calculated variation Frank Westlake did from a 1986 chart differs so much from what seems to have been the case in 1937. The answer, apparently, is that variation varies. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:04:12 EST From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Amelia's voice Ric mentioned, > The first reference I could find was by the United Press > reporter aboard Itasca who filed his report at 15:45 Hawaii Standard Time on > July 2nd after the search was well underway. He said that in her last > message "her voice sounded very tired, anxious, almost breaking." Subjective descriptions by 19th and 20th century journalists are notoriously unreliable. Newspaper and wire service accounts from the time of an historical event are usually somewhat accurate about the broadest facts ("City Hotel ravaged by fire"), but frequently distorted or simply wrong in the details ("12 injured as terrified guests gather in street to watch conflagration, faulty wiring in linen closet sparked blaze"). To gain an appreciation for this, go to your local public library's newspaper microfiche section, pick a random date before, say, 1960, and read the entire first section of a large metropolitan daily. The experience will probably surprise you, and you'll learn scads of interesting cultural history from the most unobjective elements of the newspaper-- the ads. william 2243 ************************************************************************* From Ric The stories filed by the reporters aboard Itasca contain numerous factual errors. It's really very instructive to plow through the progression of messages sent from the Itasca and then read the official reports prepared after the search failed. You can watch the mood change from hope, to despair, to "Hey, man. It ain't our fault." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:21:34 EST From: Ross Devitt Subject: Re: Hair growth Does this mean all forum members who are not current financial members of TIGHAR will be required to participate in a 2 year hair growth experiment starting on 2nd July 2000 ?? RossD ************************************************************************* From Ric No. We'll ask Tom King to conduct that experiment. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:30:31 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle Before we all go too far around the bend with the bottle and the living castaway hypothesis, just a couple of thoughts: 1. I suspect that Koata took the bottle because he wanted a bottle for something and it was a nice bottle. 2. The fact that Gallagher mentions "birds," not "bird bones," doesn't mean the birds weren't reduced to bones; it may just reflect the exigencies of telegraphic communication. 3. The story by Kilts' informant that the bottle was full of water could easily reflect an assumption on the part of the informant about why the bottle was with the skeleton. We really have no way of knowing whether the bottle had anything in it or not. 4. We still don't know what besides dogs and pigs might have scattered the bones, but crabs remain prime suspects. I think we could go very, very far afield speculating about nutsoid castaways on Niku. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:33:07 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: No recording of messages Don't believe I've ever read that any of AE's radio messages was 'recorded' or if they even had any recording equipment available on the Itaska. Have read some conflicting versions of whether or not AE's messages were broadcast over a loudspeaker so others, than the radio operator, could hear her. Don Neumann *************************************************************************** From Ric Nothing was "recorded." Earhart's early transmissions were heard only on earphones by the operator on duty. At some point later on her voice was put over the speakers. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:34:08 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle Ric says of the surviving castaways hypothesis: >it's certainly not worth being taken very seriously That's Manganibuka's truth. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:35:24 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Sunset at Lae Could anyone on the Forum inform me where I could determine the time of sunset at Lae on the date AE/FN took off for Howland? Thanks for your help, Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:43:56 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle I think William's interpretation of the Nei Manganibuka story is right on the money -- though personally I wouldn't discount the notion that Nei Anna actually DID see the ancestress herself. But that's another matter entirely. Just one small correction on an obscure point: "Teng" is simply a respectful term signifying that the person referred to is a male -- like "Mister" in English. So "Teng" (or "Tem," or "Ten") Koata is Koata, not Teng. LTM Tom King ************************************************************************** From Ric Just so I'm clear on this.... You feel that the possibility of a surviving but whacko castaway is not worth serious consideration but you wouldn't discount the notion that Koata's wife actually saw Nei Manganibuka. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:57:25 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Hair Incidentally, just as "Teng" is the equivalent of "Mr.," "Nei" is the equivalent of "Ms." LTMs TK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:44:33 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Hair Ric, Ballendorf's written account of Erenite Kiron differs from your rendition. On page 11B of Ballendorf's report, he has Teng Erenite, when asked about the bones, saying: "I have heard the others talk about the bones that were found on the island, but I don't know anything about them. I never saw them. But I did see a ghost once on the beach near the lagoon. The ghost was that of a woman without a face. She came right up to me and I saw her. I told my mother about it, and other people. I saw this ghost only once." Teng Erenite was something over 60 years old when Ballendorf interviewed him in February '96. LTM Tom King *************************************************************************** From Ric Unfortunately, much of Ballendorf's written account differs from the videotape his associate made of the interviews he describes. Erenite Kiron is a Nei, not a Teng. She was interviewed in December 1995. She did not say that she had heard others talk about the bones. In spite of numerous leading questions from Ballendorf she insisted that she had no knowledge of the bone story. She did not say that she saw the ghost on the beach near the lagoon. In fact, when asked specifically if she had ever seen the ghost herself she replied, "No. A woman who saw the ghost told me about it." She said nothing about telling her mother anything. Her attempt to describe the ghost's face was apparently difficult to translate. She passed her hand over her face and Ballendorf asked if the ghost had no face. She said, "No, but up close the face was blank." There was no mention of long hair but the ghost was said to be female with light skin, but not necessarily a white person. No mention of Nei Manganibuka or children or a maneaba. She did say that the ghost was wearing a red shirt and a grass skirt. She said that this sighting occurred at a place the translator called "mooRAHB" but when she says it it sunds to me more like "nooRAHB." Risasi Finikaso, whom we interviewed on Funafuti in 1997, was born and raised on Nikumaroro in the 1950s. She told us that there is a place on Nikumaroro (she didn't know where) that was said to be sacred to Nei Manganibuka and was called Niurabo. LTM Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:46:53 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Two Shoe Sizes The only problem I have with Kenton's scenario is the notion of the colonists being deeply interested in shoe size, and Gallagher and Macpherson, in the midst of the latter's unsuccessful operation on the former and the former's death, going into this kind of detail with them. It just doesn't seem plausible. As for Gallagher's "caving in" -- GBG was nothing if not a devoted and patriotic civil servant, he was tremendously devoted to the PISS, the situation with the U.S. in the months and years preceding his death was very complicated, and he was getting heavily involved in preparations for war. I can't imagine him NOT going along with the "party line" on a matter as peripheral to his concerns as the identity of the dead person on Niku. LTM TKing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:56:58 EST From: Alan Caldwell Subject: Re: Earhart's voice Ric, obviously no one actually knows how Amelia sounded during her last known transmission but the content of the transmission does not indicate hysteria. Her last few messages were matter of fact. There was no call of mayday, no warning of an imminent danger. She may well have been tired, upset, frustrated and anxious but the recorded words of her transmissions do not indicate a hysterical nearly crying woman to me. Alan #2329 ************************************************************************* From Ric Right on. For example, she did not say, "Why doesn't someone answer?" She did say, "Have been unable to reach you by radio." She did not say, "We're going down!" She did say, "We are on the line 157 337..." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:59:15 EST From: Margot Still Subject: Re: fastest rate of hair growth << 16 to 24>> The reason for peak hair growth rate at this time is because of peak estrogen production at this time. MStill 2332 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:01:34 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: The Mystery of the Bottle Ric asks: >Just so I'm clear on this.... >You feel that the possibility of a surviving but whacko castaway is not worth >serious consideration but you wouldn't discount the notion that Koata's wife >actually saw Nei Manganibuka. That's right. The whacko castaway "hypothesis" exists in our Euroamerican frame of reference, our world view, and has to be judged in terms of our versions of truth, proof, etc. It ought to be efficiently testable. The actual meeting with Nei Manganibuka exists in a traditional I Kiribati frame of reference, and is subject to its own set of rules; it's inappropriate to impose our own on it. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:03:02 EST From: Tom King Subject: "preventer" Recalling that Noonan said he carried a nautical sextant in addition to a bubble octant as a "preventer," in starting a memorial re-read of the works of the late and much lamented Patrick O'Brian, author of the world's greatest set of sea stories, I noted with interest the following on page 98 of his first such novel, "Master and Commander" -- (Speaking of the foremast on a brig): "It is supported by shrouds on either side -- three pair of a side -- and it is stayed for'ard by the forestay running down to the bowsprit; and the other rope running parallel with the forestay is the preventer-stay, in case it breaks." So it appears that in nautical lingo -- of which O'Brian was a past (unfortunately) master (and commander), a preventer is a backup in case something one relies upon goes bad. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:43:28 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Re: "preventer" Recall, also, Tom, that Noonan was in the merchant marine so could have been familiar with the term "preventer" as a term of art. --Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:16:38 EST From: Tom King Subject: Enerite Ric wrote: <> Ah, well, another good example of the importance of primary vs. secondary sources, even when the secondary source is the guy who collected the information. TK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:18:17 EST From: Frank Westlake Subject: Visible Length of Howland From Altitude On the 1986 chart I measure Howland at 1.4NM x 0.55NM. On the line 337/157 the apparent length will be roughly as indicated in the following chart: DISTANCE ALTITUDE 30NM 40NM 80NM 1000' 6.7' OTH OTH 8000' 276' 191' 34' 10000' 352' 249' 63' 12000' 429' 307' 93' Visible length in feet OTH=Over the horizon So at 1000' and 30NM Howland would appear to be 6.7' x 3342'. I imagine it would blend in very easily with the horizon. I don't see how this data is of anymore use than as a curiosity but the math follows for anyone interested. R=3443.92NM (Earth equatorial radius) A=Altitude in NM (NM=FT/6076.12) D=Distance along earth's surface from near end of flat island in NM L=Length of island along axis of perspective in NM N=sqrt(R^2+(R+A)^2-2*R*(R+A)*cos(D/R)) (distance to near end) F=sqrt(R^2+(R+A)^2-2*R*(R+A)*cos((D+L)/R)) (distance to far end) P=sqrt(N*(L^2-N^2+2N*F-F^2)/F) (length of visible profile in NM) Frank Westlake ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:25:36 EST From: START HERE Subject: Lae Radio Logs From Frank Westlake From: Frank Westlake ------------------------------------------- Somewhere along the line I read a comment, which I think was made by Ric, that the position information in the Lae radio log was probably erroneous. I had already read the log (Chater report) and remembered that is seemed odd so I went back and examined it more closely. Here is the relevant information from the Chater report: 2.18 pm: "HEIGHT 7000 FEET SPEED 140 KNOTS" and some remark concerning "LAE" then "EVERYTHING OKAY". The plane was called and asked to repeat position but we still could not get it. 3.19 pm: "HEIGHT 10000 FEET POSITION 150.7 east 7.3 south CUMULUS CLOUDS EVERYTHING OKAY". 5.18 pm: "POSITION 4.33 SOUTH 159.7 EAST HEIGHT 8000 FEET OVER CUMULUS CLOUDS WIND 23 KNOTS". What struck me as odd is the order in which the information was logged, which indicates that it is the order in which it was transmitted. It is very likely that Noonan recorded position in the standard format: latitude, longitude, altitude. I don't know if this format was standard in 1937 but it is today and I suspect that it was then. It is also very likely that Earhart read the position information directly from Noonan's notes as she transmitted it. It is also likely that through her own experience with poor communications she realized the importance of formatted reports. In reviewing the Lae radio logs I see this: 2.18 pm: (failed to recv position) HEIGHT 7000 FEET SPEED 140 KNOTS (???/status) 3.19 pm: HEIGHT 10000 FEET POSITION 150.7 east 7.3 south (wx/status) 5.18 pm: POSITION 4.33 SOUTH 159.7 EAST HEIGHT 8000 FEET (wx/???) WIND 23 KNOTS Her report format appears to be: LAT, LONG, ALT, SPEED, WX, STATUS/REMARKS I think it is likely that the operator recorded the numbers correctly and in the proper order (6.10) -- 150.7 -- 7.3 then later, when logging, filled in the rest of the information incorrectly. You have already seen from the Itasca's log how operators typically fix the log to read what they THINK was said, this was necessary and expected because of the state of radio communications at the time. I think the Lae operator saw the 6.10 (or whatever it really was) and assumed it was recorded wrong (it didn't look like an altitude), or perhaps he only heard some of the numbers (10) and