Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:55:37 EDT From: B. Conrad Subject: Amelia's Flight Jacket Ric: By now you are probably getting excited about this trip back to the island! Anyway, I was sitting at work thinking what it would be like to just to follow you guys on your mission back to Niku! With all the imagination I was doing, I kinda of was thinking...did Amelia wear that flight jacket on the day she disappeared. If so, was the jacket made of leather! O.K! Now, would leather deteriote in sand after all these years, Ric! Let's just say that it's buried or hidden from sunlight! Anyway, a question for you to ponder on! Anyway, have a great time and remember to bring us back a wing or two! A little KFC humor. Maybe, you can get KFC involved with this! Hey! A KFC Promotion! If you find one wing of the plane...everybody gets a one piece meal for a certain price and TIGHAR gets a certain percentage of the profits. OR if you bring in the whole plane will throw in an extra roll with your meal! O.K! I'll stop! Anyway, Good Luck and God Bless, Ric!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:04:13 EDT From: Jim Kelly Subject: Funding Ric: Checks in the mail [where have I heard that before?]On vacation so its late. Good luck! Jim Kelly 2085 Leader, follower, driver, Parker Pen expedition **************************************************************** From Ric Thank Jim. Although I've been too busy to put up a daily accounting on the forum, pledges and contributions continue to come in on a daily basis. We've been able to put together the necessary funding for the expedition, but just barely (ain't that always the way?). The advance sales of the video have been, and continue to be, a BIG help. Also, be sure to check out the photos of the Electra model on the website and get your order in. Production is under way. Your support makes the work possible. I think it was Churchill who said, "Give us the tools and we will finish the job." LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:08:19 EDT From: Dustymiss Subject: Re: Macbeth, Shakespeare and Amelia I said I knew theatre - I did not say I knew English - although one would suspect they should go hand in hand. It's amazing how alike antidote and anecdote seem at 3:00a.m - (she said with a sheepish grin) - practically synonyms - Love to mother (who is currently denouncing all knowledge of her daughter) ***************************************************************** From Ric I just figured you meant that there were anecdotes about an antidote to the bad luck of quoting the Scottish Play in a theatre. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:27:18 EDT From: Ric Subject: Until I return... This will be my last posting to the forum until I return from the Pacific on July 28. While I'm away Pat will hold the fort, beat back the creditors, and moderate the forum. (Don't get her riled. She's a lot tougher than I am.) I'd like to take this opportunity to say something profound and moving about how grateful the team and I are for the fantastic support of the forum and the TIGHAR membership, but I've still got to get all this stuff packed in time to make my flight. In the end, words don't count for much anyway. There have been plenty of words - maybe too many words - about what happened to Amelia. What is important now is truth, and the truth is not in words. The truth is in the evidence, and that's why we're headed out there. We wouldn't be going unless you sent us. All of us on the team are keenly aware that we are going for you, the people who will find Amelia. And we thank you. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:05:42 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Until I return... Don't forget to let the rough side drag . And remember that holding true to your principles will make success, whatever you find. william #2243 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:06:45 EDT From: Kabumpo Subject: Anecdotes and dozeydotes... Re: Dustymiss' cure for uttering the name of the Scottish play in a theater.... Anecdotes are fine, but give me an antidote any time. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:11:04 EDT From: Saturn Subject: AE on TV From Saturn (well, not really, but that's part of his/her email address) I just saw a clip on CNN HEADLINE NEWS on the 7 am edition about AE. As a part of THIS DAY/THIS CENTURY they featured the Pacific leg of her journey. One thing they did say was that the media attention now hasn't diminished any after all this time. Hopefully you can post this so others can see it on TV LTM ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:32:30 EDT From: Pat Subject: The Earhart Forum Well, now that Ric's gone off to the wars, it seems no one wants to play.... not a single posting. Does this mean everyone is simply holding his/her breath for the next four weeks? Is everyone merely busy with family and friends for the Fourth? Or have we become so dependent on the Master as to be paralyzed when he is gone? Let's hear some chatter in the outfield! Pat, in her best cheerleading uniform.... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:23:12 EDT From: David Powell Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum > Does this mean everyone is simply holding his/her breath for the next four > weeks? Is everyone merely busy with family and friends for the Fourth? Or > have we become so dependent on the Master as to be paralyzed when he is gone? > > Let's hear some chatter in the outfield! > > Pat, in her best cheerleading uniform.... The Fourth what? ************************* The Fourth of July... Independence Day.... 1776 and all that. Big holiday here in the States, everyone eats too much and drinks a lot of beer and shoots off fireworks. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:24:10 EDT From: Mike Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum Pat, I think we are all holding our breath!! Mike, in South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:25:09 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum Ric who? ******************* You're asking me? P ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:25:49 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum zzzzzzz william #2243 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:27:14 EDT From: Don Subject: Re: The Earhart forum Here's my posting Pat. Sorry to see you are sitting there idle! I hope Ric and his group will travel to the island without incident and I am watching the postings closely for any word of them. I hope they return with the whole aircraft, or another shoe or something. Happy 4th of July! Don ********************* Many thanks. We have weathered one storm already: a lost bag. The one with the bush knife, canteens, hand tools.... and laptop computer in it. It has arrived in Los Angeles and is on its way to Fiji tonight. Whew!!! Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:29:17 EDT From: Marilu Corwin Subject: Stories wanted..... Hey you guys, I'm new to the forum, but have always been interested in the mystery of Amelia. My mom, Jerry Anne Jurenka, is on the trip to Niku; and I'd love to hear once in a while how the team is doing, or any individual anecdotes. I understand that the information from Niku during this mission will be sketchy... Thanks a million, Marilu Corwin *************************** Well, do you want to hear the stories about the hurricanes last time? Forty foot waves and stuff? Not too likely this time, thank heaven. Anyway, I will post what they send, if anything, and meanwhile we'll have to think of ways to amuse ourselves. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:30:31 EDT From: Dustoff Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum Hey, we can generate chatter!!! Long history of that. Should it be on or off-topic? Where's Dick Stripple when you need him. ************************* Well, on topic would be nice, but I have great faith in this gang and their ability to avoid that. Dennis, where ARE you? Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:31:48 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum Aw shucks, ma'am...really don't have anything to say. You tasked me to write a chapter or two for the 8th Edition, and, well, I haven't yet started. You see, there is this "honey do" list a mile long; all my material is boxed up pending new carpet in my home office on Monday. I do have a question for the folks on the west coast...Capt. Stanley Parker of the USCG SF Division was quite a character: he kept interdicting the Itasca, then kept on saying it wasn't the CG's fault. It turns out there is another Stanley Parker, who was a Commandant of the USCG later, but their middle initials were different. Has anyone tracked down own SP for diaries and any internal documentation? Any known pictures? Later this week, I can provide employment records for him with the CG, if that would help. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:53:57 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum Don't worry. If the 4th of July is on your side of the pond what 14th of July is in France and 21st of July in Belgium, then it's because everybody is packing and going on holiday. When the money will be spent they'll all be back. I surfed through the Smithsonian yesterday and discovered they keep AE's beautiful red Lockheed Vega there. And the only pressurised Lockheed 10E ever built. Do you have any idea where the other L10 is, I mean Linda Fynch's. I saw that airplane at Le Bourget two years ago where it attracted as much attention as any of the new planes. Without being on sale. By the way how many Lockheed 10's are left today ? And how many are airworthy? Herman ***************** Same thing---independence/nationalism holiday. We don't know where Finch's airplane is. There were 130 or so 10s built, of which only... what, 13 or 14 were 10Es. Does anyone know the current census? Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:01:23 EDT From: Mary Jane Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum Please let me know if you receive this. I am new to the forum and this is my first message. Also, by accident I deleted the information on sending a messages but do recall something about putting a number after your name. I have been reading all of the messages sent to you and rick-what a wonderful forum. In 1977 I worked in Mass. at the City of Medford Planning Dept. and there was a woman who came in a couple of times for the Historical Society. Much later I was told that this was AE sister. Never saw her after because I moved. Do you know if she lived in the Medford, Mass. area. I always wonder about that. Well hope this fills in some space for the forum-The Master may be away for awhile but as always there is a woman keeping the show going!!! Mary Jane ********************** As you see, it came through fine. The number after some names is a membership number---membership in TIGHAR, that is, which is $45/year and carries with it much cachet and any number of benefits. See the web site for details . Muriel Earhart Morrissey did indeed live in Medford. She died just two years ago, at a great age. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:03:19 EDT From: Terry Ann Linley Subject: Re: Stories wanted I'd be happy to let Marilu borrow my copy of the Niku 1997 tape....please send me her e-mail address, and I will contact her directly. Thanks! Terry ********************* Marilu-- we have stopped posting email addresses on the Forum because people were getting junk mail. If you'd like to have the tape, send me the email and I'll forward it on to Terry, then you guys can touch base directly. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:05:34 EDT From: Shirley Subject: Logs, notes, journals? I have had a thought (question) in the back of my mind for awhile, with regards to the possibility, or lack thereof, of there being anything left of the log, or a note or journal, etc. What might be left intact of anything like that? Though, this calls for speculation, what does anyone else feel about the possibility of AE or FN trying to make a journal of happenings after the landing on Niku and perhaps trying to bury that in order that someone later on might find it? Of course, this would call for the survivor to be keenly aware that he or she wasn't going to survive to a rescue. I'm sure that fact was realized at some point in time. If this point hasn't been discussed before, perhaps we could have some banter about it. If it has, just tell me to shut up. Sorry, I haven't been on the forum too long but I'm certainly very intrigued by it all and have been interested in the subject for some years. I read all I can find for books and try to find "stuff" on the web besides TIGHAR in the hopes that I might find some little clue or sign that could possibly have been overlooked. I can dream can't I ? Thanks for listening. LTM and fingers crossed Shirley 2299 ************************************** Well, we've thought a lot about the treasure that would be a journal or log.... on the one hand, it would seem reasonable that someone marooned on a desert island would try to leave a record. On the other hand, where does one even begin to look? We are sure hoping for some sort of record, though. If wrapped well, and well above the waterline... it *might* survive. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:06:44 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Quiet Forum. 'Twon't last! Pat, >Well, now that Ric's gone off to the wars, it seems no one wants to play.... >not a single posting. Okey, I've got a couple of things you might check out while you're just sitting around waiting for someone to post something! First one: I probably need to ask Jerry about this but i'll try it on you too. It sounds like a real possibility to resolve the question of whether or not Fred Noonan had any children. Tom Abran asked: Did Fred's Goddaughter have any recollection of children? I'd think she'd at least remember that. Do you know whether this was ever checked out? Do we know how to contact her? ********************************** OK, guys, here's a valid question..... let's have at it. P ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:10:14 EDT From: Willilam Subject: live witnesses Hi gang: Does anyone know if there are witnesses (still alive)to AH & FN take-off on Lae? I'd like to know exactly what gear they had on board and if they may have left somethings behind which could have helped them land on the right island. And, were there bars on Lae and was Fred seen in them? William LTM ******************************** Don't know if there are still witnesses alive, other than one or two fellows in Australia... Randy? What gear they had on board is a matter of some fact and some speculation, and eyewitnesses won't help. What would help is an inventory, in writing, done at the time. I don't think there was one. FWIW, those who were there say FN was sober and straight, and was mainly concerned with getting his chronometers set to the time signal, which took a couple of extra days. Lae is a city in PNG---so it would be "in" not "on". It wasn't much of a place then (still isn't, actually), but probably had some bars. There is no indication that FN spent any time in them, nor is there any evidence that he had a problem with alcohol. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:12:23 EDT From: Hugh Graham Subject: Earhart forum doldrums So you want some off-topic ruminations. Previously, someone on the forum implied that Gen. Chuck Yeager thought himself a very good pilot. But he might tell you that his buddy Bob Hoover is a better one. Why? Maybe because Hoover does something I thought impossible. He does an inside loop from 20 foot altitude in a twin Lycoming propellor-driven executive aircraft, designed about 1948, originally called an Aero Commander. I always thought that a wing-mounted propellor-driven aircraft generated too much gyroscopic force from the propellors to do a loop without twisting the wings off. Could someone please explain? Of course Hoover eliminates this problem by repeating the trick with both engines shut down, followed by an 8-point hesitation roll at about 300 feet, still without power. And he is a 77-year-old WW2 vet! LTM(who was impressed) HAG 2201. ******************************* Well, this is pretty off-topic, all right. And the aeronautical engineering stuff is way outside my pay grade. Is there some way to link it to the Earhart flight? I know, she did a loop on departure from Lae.... well, no, I guess not. P ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:13:16 EDT From: Kelly Subject: Leather jackets Hey all, Someone had posted a question about whether Amelia was wearing her leather flight jacket when she took off the last time....don't know if anyone answered this yet or not but I was always under the impression that her flight jacket was one of the items that she packed up and sent back home to make room for the needed fuel for the last leg of her final flight. I recall reading this in one of the many books on Amelia. Am I wrong? Kelly ************************** dunno, someone want to look it up? P ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:15:11 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Film of takeoff Just managed to watch the film of the last take-off at the project home page, having at long last acquired a non-steampowered computer. Who's the guy in the white shirt seeing off AE and FN? LTM Phil Tanner 2276 ******************************* Good question. I bet Randy knows the answer. LTM, who is too lazy to go look it up herself P ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:16:29 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Questions, questions.... Pat, Since you did ask for more traffic on the Forum, I do have some questions I've been pondering for some time. After reading through the web site & most of the books/articles (over many years) dealing with the AE/FN disappearance, I still find it puzzling that there was never any recorded instance of anyone hearing any SOS call from the flight giving their best estimated position (assuming they did indeed ditch the ship at sea) or any announcement of sighting another landfall. Even during the early days of WWII the B-17, with Eddie Rickenbacker aboard, continued to send a Mayday signal, including an estimated position report, right up until the plane hit the water, even though they were flying in hostile territory where Japanese forces could intercept their signal. I know, there are many explanations as to why no such broadcast from the AE/FN flight was heard, including the obvious one, that they did send such messages, but that no one heard them. However, except for the many post-loss reports of hearing signals from the AE/FN plane (presumably, because of the time frames, after the plane had landed somewhere), all or most all of which were determined to be "hoaxes", there does seem to be a strange "gap" between the last message received by Itaska & the onset of the many radio signals reported by numerous sources (including the Navy & Pan Am) after the flight was presumed to be down. Since it was reported, on several occasions, that AE stated that she would continue to broadcast position reports throughout the flight on a regular basis "even if no one is listening", might we dare assume that she did make such broadcasts? If, in fact, such broadcasts were sent, why didn't someone, somewhere hear them? It has been assumed that the Itaska couldn't have heard any such broadcasts because shortly after they received the last message from the flight, they went steaming off to the West/Northwest, which would presumably have placed them out of receiving range, assuming that AE/FN were heading SE on their LOP toward the Phoenix chain. It has also been stated that there were very few two-way radio sets or networks in the mandated islands during the 1930s (the one known station on Hull Island was not in working order) however we know there was a radio operator on Nauru Island that heard AE broadcasting during the flight & there were stories about someone on Tabiteuea, in the Gilbert chain, "hearing" the plane pass over or near the island (uncertain whether they heard any radio broadcast from AE). Getting to my main point, in all the reading I've done on the subject, I've never found that any serious research has been done to establish exactly what the status of radio receivers was in the mandates in 1938. There was a Pan Am radio network in the South Pacific, including Guam (where the U.S. Navy had established an advanced radio listening post in the 1920s, to intercept Japanese Naval fleet messages & that Naval personnel on that island maintained their own "ham" radio facility, which could reach Hawaii & San Francisco), however there is no information available about radio networks operated in the Japanese mandated (including the Marshalls) islands or similar networks operated by the British (particularly in the Gilberts). Recently, I exchanged E-mail messages with a Japanese journalist, Fukiko Aoki, who authored a magazine article & a book in the 1980s, seeking to debunk the many Japanese conspiracy theories that have arisen over the years, regarding the AE/FN disappearance (unfortunately her book & article were never published in English). Since she had interviewed many of the surviving Japanese Naval personnel who served in the mandates during that era I asked her if she had ever inquired as to the operation of any civil or military radio networks the Japanese may have established during their occupation of the islands. So far she has not responded to my latest inquiry (hope I didn't scare her off by being so specific). Sorry I've taken up so much space & time on the forum, but these questions still "bug" me & I will continue to try & dig-up more info on the subject myself & let you know if I come-up with anything interesting. Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:10:59 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Earhart Forum doldrums This may be off-topic, but since you say you want more traffic, I'd like to say a few words concerning Hugh Graham's comment on Bob Hoover while we are all waiting for the others to bring back AE's L10. While i know Chuck Yeager because he is part of history for being the first to break the sound barrier, I know Bob Hoover because I saw him roll his Aero Commander on TV. The only other guy I know who rolled a twin near the ground was also a good pilot. He rolled one of the one remaining airworthy WW II Lockheed P-38 Lightnings in the UK at the Duxford air show, came out too low and flew into the ground before TV. Only later did someone find a WW II flight manual for the P-38, which said rolls were not allowed below 3,000 ft. So although I agree Bob Hoover is a good pilot, I'd like to remind everybody that there are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but that there are no old bold pilots. If I met Bob Hoover I would remind him of that a safe way to fly an airplane is "to pull to get the houses become smaller and keep the blue side up". From Herman (who threw about a few airplanes in his lifetime, is younger than Bob Hoover, not as bold however, but still around) ****************** always a good reminder....... P ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:22:16 EDT From: Ken Knapp Subject: Re: Stories wanted Hello all! Here is a little story for the forum. Today I drove out to the Viewmont Mall in Scranton (must need my head examined in this heat!). Anyway, I noticed this car ahead of me, signaling a turn into the Circuit City plaza. It was a white chrysler LeBaron convertable. The thing about this car that caught my ey was the license plate... the bracket said "Lady pilots don't stall around". And the license number was (get this) "AME1IA". Cool, huh? As I passed the car on the right, I saw it was being driven by a man, not a lady. Could this have been Fred? Could he have been going to Circuit City to pick up a TV/VCR combo for the Electra which had been refitted as a flying RV?? Too many questions and no answers. Perhaps we should recall Ric and initiate a new search in Scranton! What a place to disappear from the world! Ok, I really did see that car, but I'm kidding about the rest. Wanted to make that clear before you called the men in white coats to get me. :> Hope everyone has a nice 4th. And remember, "If you drink a fifth on the fourth, you're not likely to venture forth on the fifth". LTM, Ken Knapp ******************* Of course, I was the one who said chatter in the outfield, uh huh.... can I take it back? P ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:26:36 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Logs, notes, journals? Pat, when you were on Niku, was there any paper products that survived since the abandonment of the village? I would think that paper would deteriorate quite quickly, but your observations would bear witness to this question. ************************* Heck, the paper products *we* brought to the island didn't usually survive the experience... For paper to stay intact there it would have to be very well wrapped in a water and bug and rodent proof container of some kind. Between the rain and the heat.... When we excavated the grave and found the remains of an infant, we reassembled the site as we found it. This included a flat slab of coral rock about 12 inches by 12 inches which was at the head of the grave, lying flat, underneath the covering layer of white shells. Underneath that rock we left a note explaining what we had done, and how to reach us, in two zip-lock style bags. It was the only way we could think of to save another archeologist the trouble of re-excavating it... but we all agreed at the time that there was a high chance that the bags wouldn't work and the paper would melt away. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:27:45 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: live witnesses No info from my side...Balfour, the radio operator, last correspondence was from the late 70's, IIRC. > From William > > Hi gang: > > Does anyone know if there are witnesses (still alive)to AH & FN > take-off on Lae? I'd like to know exactly what gear they had on board and if > they may have left somethings behind which could have helped them land on > the right island. And, were there bars on Lae and was Fred seen in them? > > William LTM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:28:47 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: RE: film of takeoff Wasn't that Colonel Sanders hawking his chicken? Nope, I've no idea...not kept up on people on Lae, but Ric may know. > From Phil Tanner > > Just managed to watch the film of the last take-off at the project home page, > having at long last acquired a non-steampowered computer. Who's the guy in > the white shirt seeing off AE and FN? ********************* Well shoot, guess I'll have to find out. P ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:30:11 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Questions Responding to Don Neumann's question: Others may have opinions beside mine, but... AE's radio was not of great power, and she used voice instead of morse code, which would make reception at range more difficult. Apparently, she changed to 6210 KHz at her last transmission, which had very short range during daylight. To hear her, you had to be at one of the skip distances, and listening as well. As far as we know, only the Ontario, Swan, Itasca, Nauru, Lae, CG Honolulu and Radio Tutuilla were even attempting to listen to AE during the flight. Lae, Nauru and Honolulu were hopelessly out of range, as were the PAA stations, particularly during the day. Ontario was on her way home, and had no reason to listen in; Swan never heard a thing, as did Tutuilla and Honolulu. There were several stations in the Gilberts that could have been used as radio beacons, but they were broadcast stations only. There were probably a few 2-way stations up and running, but they were never informed as to what frequencies to tune into, nor did they know when AE took off. That pretty much sums up the situation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:31:40 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: Noonan's Children > It sounds like a real possibility to resolve the question of whether or not > Fred Noonan had any children. > > Tom Abran asked: Did Fred's Goddaughter have any recollection of children? > I'd think she'd at least remember that. > > Do you know whether this was ever checked out? > Do we know how to contact her? I tracked down Fred's god-daughter from a lead in an article in a 1937 New Orleans Time-Picayune article about FN. Her father (now deceased) was called Fred's best friend and FN became her godfather. I talked to her over the phone and exchanged a couple of letters with her. Without going back to review the letters, I think she was about 14 when AE and FN came thru New Orleans in May, 1937.Remember, Fred would have been gone from N.O. about 7 years by this time and we don't think they kept real close contact. He didn't visit the family in May, '37, but called his god-daughter from the airport and talked to her awhile. She sent me a color copy of the postcard he sent her from Calcutta.. Also a copy of an envelope which contained a letter sent to her father by FN from Oakland in 1935. She declined to reveal the contents of the letter. She is a gracious lady, delightful to talk to. I believe she has a family member or close friend who monitors the forum. She does not remember any children or stories of any FN alcoholism. Regarding children. Fred and Josie were married ten years. New Orleans Catholic diocese did a search for baptismal records from 1927 to 1930 when they lived there and no luck. I have a contact in Miami who did a birth index search for Dade Co. and no luck (they were either there or in port-au-Prince, Haiti from 1930-35). I asked the State Dept. about births of Americans overseas during this time period and got a lot of governtmentese which meant they weren't interested in looking. If I EVER get the Juarez divorce record, I am hoping it will say whether any children were born to the union or not. Smooth Sailing. Ron Dawson 2126 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:32:49 EDT From: Smartfix Subject: leather jackets I believe Amelia's leather jacket is on display at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum. **************** If memory serves, a leather jacket that belonged to AE is also in the Purdue University Library Special Collection. P ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:36:20 EDT From: Mark Cameron Subject: Re: Stories Wanted Just found out there is a 1997 Niku tape - are there any copies left? Or could I ask another member to copy theirs and send it to me? I'd be glad to pay any expenses necessary to copy and mail it LTM and thanks Mark Cameron #2301 ************************* Well, you see, it's like this. We have a good master of the two shows made about the 1997---ABC Turning Point, and a Discovery Channel show. We have been just running off copies for people for ... I dunno, I think $20 each to cover time and materials. Not exactly a great system, but it works and we have permission to do this. Problem is.... I don't know how to set up the dubbing system. Ric does video, I do computers. Can you wait until August? LTM, who is not real good with tv type technology Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:40:34 EDT From: Sactodave Subject: Wing structures and maneuvers3 Bob Hoover is indeed one of the world's greatest pilots. His recent FAA medical difficulties allegedly resulted from an anomoly during his FAA Qualification Flight. It was told to me by a less-than-reliable source (an Air Force Fighter Pilot) that Mr. Hoover was suffering from some sort of brain damage, ostensibly resulting from his accident in San Diego. Though I cannot confirm this rumor, the general consensus from the pilot population was that the FAA was "out to get him" I have close personal friends in the FAA. The man who taught me to fly back in 1973 is now an FAA Check Airman, and a highly experienced pilot in his own right. The FAA is not in the business of "getting" anyone. In my twenty five years of flying, I've had several checkrides, medical examinations, and certifications issued by the agency, and never have I been withheld from obtaining any rating, medical certification, or other service administered by the FAA. Now, as far as the maneuver you discuss, an inside loop in a highwing twin is as possible as the roll performed by "Tex" Johnson in the 707. Aircraft that are rated in the Normal Category are able to withstand certain structural loads of positive and negative Gs, depending on wing design, internal structure, etc. They must be designed to sustain a certain "Load Factor" to be certified to operate in the Normal Category. Mr. Hoover, in performing his inside loops and other incredible feats, simply operates the airplane within those design limits. You may be alluding to the Partenavia that shed it's outer wing surfaces during a show in Arizona (I knew the pilot) That was a clear case of exceeding the design load factor of the wings. You mention the effect of propellers during an inside loop. There is a tremendous gyroscopic precession, created by the rotating propellers, that occurs when the aircraft is accelerated in the horizontal axis during a loop. But as I stated earlier, the design limits do take these forces into account. ********************** This is really quite interesting, even if it *is* off-topic. Ob-Earhart---- when you look at the structure of an Electra, it looks very over-engineered for the job the aircraft was supposed to do. The wing is built like a girdered bridge, and that whole center section is massive. This helps give us the hope we have that at least that much will have survived and be identifiable. Any comments on structure re: Electras? I don't think any modern aircraft are built like that. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:41:25 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: Wings and maneuvers >From Hugh Graham 2201: > > I always thought that a wing-mounted propellor-driven aircraft generated > too much gyroscopic force from the propellors to do a loop without > twisting the wings off. Could someone please explain? Forget the 'gyroscopic force'. DC-3's, C-46's, B-17's, DC-7's and all 2. 3, & 4 eng. planes do loops and rolls just fine. [Its a good idea to be sure that there is nothig loose in the cockpit, cabin or bomb bay...] And any other manuever within their safe G range. RC 941 PS Bob Hoover is not only one of the best pilots that ever lived but a fine gentleman as well. He was Chuck's chase pilot when he broke the sound barrier, and again 50 yrs. later when Chuck 'recreated' the event. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:43:25 EDT From: Ang. Subject: Re: the forum >Let's hear some chatter in the outfield! I suggest we stick very close to the script to avoid reader burnout. IMHO a rest (minimal activity) from this pace would be very welcome. Let Gillespie do his thing and lets keep the channel clear for his communiques. Ang. ********************** There probably won't be much in the way of communiques, actually. It's a pretty laborious process---SSB to Fiji, fax or email here, nothing long or informative can be passed. Some *on-topic* discussion would be useful... unless everyone is just so durned tired they want a rest? P ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:45:19 EDT From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Expedition results I think we all need to keep things in proper perspective. While we hope that this expedition will result in either DNA identifiable bones being located in Suva or Lockheed parts being located on the island with identifiable serial numbers there is every probability it will not happen. The bones are more likely to have been tossed out and the aircraft or aircraft parts that may have been in the bushes in the 1940s and 1950s may no longer be there. Neither of these cases mean that our hypothesis is wrong but it means we may need to press on with continued commitment in our search for what really happened to Amelia and Fred. This kind of scientific investigation is seldom simple and seldom capped with very dramatic success. If the investigation is worth undertaking, and it surely is, then it is worthy of dedication to carry on even when there may be failures along they way. I say all this because I think it is important that we not get our expectations raised to high. I would love to see this expedition crown our efforts with great success but I am prepared to continue giving my support to TIGHAR regardless of the outcome of this present effort. Dick Pingrey 0908C ******************** Of course you are 100% correct. And this kind of support is what makes it possible for us to keep going when the successes are few and far between... P ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:47:02 EDT From: Deacon Michael Cantrelle Subject: FN children Tom Abran asked: >Did Fred's Goddaughter have any recollection of children? >I'd think she'd at least remember that. > >Do you know whether this was ever checked out? >Do we know how to contact her? I spoke to FN's godchild this morning. I live about a mile from her. She doesn't recall any children. She says Fred was married twice. First wife was from Mississippi. She said her father never spoke or mentioned anything about Fred having children. It seems that she lost touch with Fred for some time. In fact, she didn't really know what he looked like until I gave her a picture of him and than later she received information and pictures from Tighar. Deacon Michael Cantrelle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:00:44 EDT From: JMKSM Subject: Lockheed 10s, etc. Here are a couple of excerpts from postings to and from the forum, plus other stuff. What is the difference between an Electra 10E and 10A? The model 10 Linda Finch flew had been grounded at a small grass strip near my home for several years as a result of engine failure, and was quite a mess. It had been used for skydiving. When local interest built up, the local papers, the owners, and the aircraft registration papers all called it a model 10E. Its history was, in part, as a member of the Brazilian national airline, Varig, where speculation has it, it was they who outfitted it with the 550 hp P & W engines. A while back I recalled and sent some information about Linda Finch's airplane (to Ric). I have found a couple of articles from our local newspaper describing some of its history. It was flown here on Memorial Day weekend,1977, by a pilot named Gary Hannah. It had engine trouble and landed at a small grass strip used by skydivers. Hannah was later reportedly killed while flying in Alaska. The left engine was removed and the plane sat idle here until 1983, then was claimed by a group called "Amelia Air" in possession of a very suspect bill of sale. That group towed the airplane to Amery, WI, and apparently took it apart, as Linda Finch stated the airplane was in pieces and stored in Amery when she bought it in 1992. What may be worth more than the article are two pictures (sent to Ric); one showing a head on frontal shot while being towed, with the left engine removed. The other is from a more recent article showing Finch with the restored airplane in Oakland, CA. As for the suspect bill of sale it was from the group "Amelia Air" presented to the owner of the private airport, who had claimed possession of the airplane because it had been abandoned. And yes, it certainly seems the title to the plane is cloudy, at least from 1977 - 1992. Ric replied: "The only difference between the 10A and the 10E are the engines. Earhart's was a 10E Special, the "Special" signifying the addition of long-range fuel tanks. Finch's airplane (c/n 1015), accurately described, is a 10A modified to 10E standard." As for where the airplane is now, don't know for sure. But, it was for sale in Texas, where Finch is from, for well over one million. However, Finch is/was in substantial legal wrangling and the plane may have been tied up in that. Much of the World Flight 1997 information directly from Finch is not accessible on the web any more. The following web address has information about it though - ssc.nasa.gov/htmls/tseierc/flight.htm#Menu There were 15 Electras 10E's produced, according to internet sources, with only two existing today. A question could be, is one of them Finch's, since hers was a converted 10A. Off this subject, I have an acquaintance who visited his son on Guam. They used Guam as a staging ground for exploration to an outlying island where an old resident showed them a room in an old prison where he had seen the bodies of the "two American fliers" after they were killed by the Japanese. This acquaintance is now firmly embedded in the conspiracy theory camp. ********************************** Thanks much!! Pat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:02:57 EDT From: Jack. J. Subject: Re: Lockheeds According to "Lockheed Aircraft since 1913," by Rene J. Francillon, there were 15 Lockheed model 10-E's built. The pressurized Electra, c/n 3501, was designated the XC-35 and was a "one-off" model of the Electra series. The construction number, c/n-35 was a special number assigned by Lockheed, rather than falling within the series 1000 to 1148 range of all the other Electra's. The aircraft was ordered by the War Department for research relative to pressurized cabins. The aircraft still exists, and is part of the collection at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC I hope the readers find this bit of Electra trivia of interest. As to the current status of existing Electras, I'll start digging through my archives for some reliable data. The Electras were dispersed throughout the world from their very beginning, so this information may be near impossible to obtain. As for Linda Finch, the AE "wannabe", and her poor attempt at a L-10-E NR16020 look-a-like, it should be found at the bottom of the Pacific with the wannabe in it! Best wishes and blue skies to the expedition crew. Jack J. LTM ******************************************** Now now, mustn't be too hard on Linda Finch.... surely there's a reason why not...... P ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:06:13 EDT From: Tet Walston Subject: Lockheeds and radios I know this is off topic, but in 1941 (when I was a RAF u/t pilot) we were flying Tiger Moths from Calgary Airfield (Alberta, Canada), when it really was a grass field, The Canadian National Airlines, called Trans Canada Airlines, were flying Lockheed 10s, using the same field. We knew them as Electras. They had radio, and thus communication with the (then) primitive Air Traffic Control. They also obviously had very experienced pilots -- whereas WE were learning to fly, and thus knew little about the art/science of being a pilot. Despite the lack of radio, we learned very quickly to "see and be seen" and TCA had priority in take-off and Circuits and Landings. There were no mid-air collisions, nor any "near misses", a creditable record. I recall my thoughts at the time, that Amelia was flying a similar a/c when she disappeared. Best wishes on the search, LTM, Tet, ex Spitfire pilot WW ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:07:57 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Logs, notes, journals? > Well, we've thought a lot about the treasure that would be a journal or > log.... on the one hand, it would seem reasonable that someone marooned on a > desert island would try to leave a record. On the other hand, where does one > even begin to look? We are sure hoping for some sort of record, though. If > wrapped well, and well above the waterline... it *might* survive. As I remember, there was mention of a mound of oyster shells that had cemented themselves together. Could this be a cairn, left there as a marker to future visitors to the island? Has anyone thought to look under them or around them to determine this? Could they perhaps be a tombstone of sorts? Blue Skies & LTM, Dave Bush #2200 **************************** It wasn't a pile.... more like a loosely affiliated scattering. Tom King thought it looked like a place where someone had lunch . Patv ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:09:38 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum > >From David Powell > > > Does this mean everyone is simply holding his/her breath for the next four > > weeks? Is everyone merely busy with family and friends for the Fourth? Or > > have we become so dependent on the Master as to be paralyzed when he is > gone? > > > > Let's hear some chatter in the outfield! > > > > Pat, in her best cheerleading uniform.... > > The Fourth what? > > ************************* > > The Fourth of July... Independence Day.... 1776 and all that. Big holiday > here in the States, everyone eats too much and drinks a lot of beer and > shoots off fireworks. > > Pat I was having lunch with an friend, expatriate English, when the subject of the Fourth of July came up. I asked him if they had a fourth in England and he said no, they didn't. I replied, with mock surprise, "You mean their calendar jumps from the third to the fifth?" Fortunately I survived. But I cannot repeat his diatribe here on the forum for fear of offending delicate ears. Blue Skies & LTM, Dave Bush #2200 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:10:26 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Noonan children To: Deacon Cantrelle Ron Dawson Thank you for rather quickly clearing up the question of whether or not Fred's God-Daughter was aware of any Noonan Children. All things known at this time seem to pretty definitly indicate that there were no children. One question leads to another. Mrs. Crosson, whose husband knew Fred well, had the impression that Fred had taken a leave of absence from PAA to go with Amelia as her navigator. I wonder if that letter the lady has was written at such a time that it might shed some light on that question? Did Fred leave PAA, or take leave of absence? She could answer that essentially yes or no. She might have to check the letter with that in mind. Do we know if the letter was written in late 1936 or early 1937? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:12:49 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Bad news, if accurately reported Found this bad news at www.fijilive.com. phil 2276: ########## The American research team, TIGHAR (The International Group for Aircraft Recovery) have been denied by the President, Ratu Sir Kamisese Mara, to search the Government House premises. TIGHAR is an American Volunteer search group searching for the famous female aviator Amelia Earhart's remains. "The President was a medical student at the Central Medical School at the time the bones were sent from Nikumaroro to Suva so that it could be examined," said a researcher with TIGHAR, Dr Thomas King. "And we welcome the opportunity to have someone who knows what we're looking for," Dr King said. "We were given a letter which was from the President's Private Secretary which stating that the search is not considered appropriate. "But we hope that they will reconsider and give us a more positive response," Dr King said. Part of the research group left for an island, Nikumaroro in the Republic of Kiribati. TIGHAR's Earheart research has been focused on the uninhabited island some 400 miles southeast of Howland Island, Earheart's last destination at the time of her loss. Four archeological surveys and test excavations have been conducted to date on the island with the co-operation of the Kiribati government, and extensive archival and oral historical research is ongoing. According to Dr King, TIGHAR has a few strong leads to the whereabouts of the remains of Ms Earheart. "We have a few wireless messages that were relayed back and forth from the Pacific Western High Commissioner and an officer who was on the island of Nikumaroro who believed that he had found part of the remains of Ms Earheart," he said. "We got the information and the copies of the messages from the National Archives in Kiribati on an island of Terawa and from the Archives of the Western Pacific High Commission which is on the outskirts of London," Dr King said. "We, (TIGHAR) believe that maybe substantial pieces of the plane (which we believe landed safely on Nikumaroro) are still intact and identifiable," Dr King said. "But if we are not going to be able to find anything on this search in Suva and Nikumaroro, we will give up," he said. "But we still have a few strong leads to follow," Dr King said. ############## Thanks, Phil. When I talked to Ric last there were some pretty positive things going on in terms of rumor chasing and so on. I dunno what the story is today, of course. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:14:01 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: TIGHAR press coverage Hi Pat, I just saw this... william #2243 ----------- Tuesday July 6 3:12 AM ET Fiji Bones May Hold Key To Earhart Mystery By Shaun Devitt SYDNEY (Reuters) - A team of American volunteers are scouring government buildings in the Pacific island state of Fiji for a box of bones that could finally solve the mystery of U.S. aviation pioneer Amelia Earhart. Earhart disappeared over the Pacific on July 2, 1937, while trying to fly around the world with navigator Fred Noonan. American archaeologists said a link had been formed between medical reports dating from 1941 and the disappearance of Earhart and Noonan. "Earhart and Noonan are the only people we know of that description that disappeared in the area, so there's a high probability it's them," archaeologist Thomas King told Reuters. King, who is leading the team, said 13 bones including a skull, and a woman's shoe and a sextant, had been discovered on the island of Nikumaroro three years after Earhart disappeared. Nikumaroro was then in the Gilbert and Ellice Islands, which are now the independent state of Kiribati. A British doctor in Suva, Dr. D.W. Hoodless, had studied the bones and made a comprehensive inventory of the remains. His report was discovered by the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery (TIGHAR), but the actual bones are missing. King said a modern anthropology database had shown that the bones would match someone of Earhart's appearance and northern European descent. "If we can find the bones, DNA testing will confirm they actually are Earhart's remains," King said from Suva, where he believes the bones are lost within government buildings and hospitals. Archaeologists had been scanning islands in the Kiribati region for aircraft remains matching Earhart's plane and had spoken to villagers about the suspected crash site. "The problem is that the colonists who were around when Earhart disappeared moved away to the Solomon Islands and other regions," King said. Several metal parts, similar in consistency and age to Earhart's plane, had been found on the island but locals may have used the wreckage for jewelry purposes, scattering the remains. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:15:35 EDT From: Tom Abran Subject: Purple Don Neumann wrote: "I've never found that any serious research has been done to establish exactly what the status of radio receivers was in the mandates in 1938. There was a Pan Am radio network in the South Pacific, including Guam (where the U.S. Navy had established an advanced radio listening post in the 1920s, to intercept Japanese Naval fleet messages), however there is no information available about radio networks operated in the Japanese mandated (including the Marshalls) islands or similar networks operated by the British (particularly in the Gilberts)." I know that U.S. intelligence broke the Japanese code and deciphered all of their transmissions. Does anyone know when this happened? I'm sure they never heard anything about Amelia and Fred, but if we know they were listening at that time, it would place another nail in the conspiracy coffin. - Tom Abran **************** anyone? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:17:59 EDT From: Subject: Re: Expedition results From Peter Boor: Well put, Dick. My feelings exactly. Peter Boor - 0856C > From Dick Pingrey > > Pat, > I think we all need to keep things in proper perspective. While > we > hope that this expedition will result in either DNA identifiable bones > being > located in Suva or Lockheed parts being located on the island with > identifiable serial numbers there is every probability it will not happen. > The bones are more likely to have been tossed out and the aircraft or > aircraft parts that may have been in the bushes in the 1940s and 1950s may > no > longer be there. Neither of these cases mean that our hypothesis is wrong > but it means we may need to press on with continued commitment in our > search > for what really happened to Amelia and Fred. This kind of scientific > investigation is seldom simple and seldom capped with very dramatic > success. > If the investigation is worth undertaking, and it surely is, then it is > worthy of dedication to carry on even when there may be failures along > they > way. I say all this because I think it is important that we not get our > expectations raised to high I would love to see this expedition crown > our > efforts with great success but I am prepared to continue giving my support > to > TIGHAR regardless of the outcome of this present effort. > Dick Pingrey 0908C > > ******************** > > Of course you are 100% correct. And this kind of support is what makes it > possible for us to keep going when the successes are few and far > between... > > P ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:18:52 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Another Fiji web site report From Phil Tanner This is from www.fijivillage.com ############ No luck yet in search for American navigators bones The search for the bones of the famous American pilot Amelia Earheart continues without much luck. Team leader Doctor Tom King says although they have been denied access to Government House to look for the missing bones, they will be looking in a number of other locations where the bones may have been tucked away in. However he was hesitant to say where because approvals were still being sought. Dr King says they will also be talking to people who might have any recollection of the bones as well as study records at the National Archives. Meanwhile, King and his team return to the United States on the 26th of month. They will be replaced with a forensic anthropologist who will continue where King's team would have left off. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:43:32 EDT From: Gene Bialek Subject: Pan Am, Noonan and Gatty The Naval Historical Center's Library has acquired a 1997 book entitled "Pacific Pioneers: A Pictorial History of Pan Am's Pacific First Flights 1935-1946" Jon Krupnick is the author. Several photos of Fred Noonan with the Sikorsky S-42 seaplane. He was navigator during the first Pan Am survey flight in 1935, and of course subsequent flights. Interesting to note that Pam Am gave up carrying a separate navigator after a period, giving those duties to the first officer. Also mentioned in the book is Harold Gatty. He was employed by Pan Am to scout out potential landing sites after Kingman Reef proved undesirable. It is obvious that Gatty knew the Islands very well. The book contains a nice summary of why the US took over the British Islands at that time. Gene Bialek gbialek@knight-hub.com. *********************** Thanks, Gene, sounds like an interesting source. P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:42:19 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Report From Tom King in FIJI Bula from Fiji! We've had trouble getting access to e-mail, and I don't think my last report made it to TIGHAR Central, so here's a current situation report: Nikumaroro Team: Nai'a sailed yesterday, July 5 in Fiji, with all present and accounted for. Godspeed to ship and crew. Fiji Team: Karen Burns has left with Nai'a and Barbara Norris has arrived. Thus far we have: * Gone through all skeletal material at the Fiji Museum not associated with known Fijian archeological sites, and found no matches for the Nikumaroro bones. * Gone through the skeletal collection of the Anatomy Department, Fiji School of Medicine (successor to the Central Medical School) with the same results. * Searched the attic of the old Central Medical School (now the dental clinic at the Colonial War Memorial Hospital) with negative results (several wooden boxes, but none Kanawa, all with red crosses on them, all empty). * Searched the attic and underfloor space at Dr. Hoodless' residence, with negative results. * Searched the attic of the gazebo in Thurston Garden (built 1914, part of the Fiji Museum complex) with negative results. * Held a number of interviews, a press conference, and been featured on Fiji TV One and in the local newspapers; this is bringing in a small number of contacts and suggestions, which we're following up. We've been able to make this level of progress because of tremendous support by the Fiji Museum, which has opened many doors for us, made arrangements, and guided us through the government protocol system. Through the Museum we've also obtained the services of four volunteers who are assisting in the search. In the immediate future, we have several more buildings to search, a number of people to interview, and a number of archives to check. Though results have thus far been negative, hope springs eternal. In a somewhat peripheral development, Kar Burns has helped the Suva Police identify a skeleton found in the forest not far from here, in an environment not unlike Nikumaroro's. Interestingly, it appears likely that the individual represented died only about 4 months ago, and was completely reduced to a skeleton, substantially scattered and somewhat chewed, probably by dogs and/or pigs. We hear that some of you have picked up the rather overblown news story (based on a leaked document) about the Government refusing us access to Government House, the old HQ of the Western Pacific High Commission. In fact, while the Government is naturally sensitive about people from another country searching its buildings, we had a very good meeting this morning (7/7) with the President's Official Secretary, and are quite hopeful that someone (perhaps not we) will look through the buildings with an eye to finding bones and boxes. We also had a good interview this morning on the Australian Broadcasting Company's National Breakfast Show, and a good talk with Reuters yesterday. We're getting lots of press, which is bringing more information, ideas, and possibilities to light. So the bottom line here is - no bones or boxes in hand yet, but progress is being made, and we're cautiously optimistic. Love to Mother (who says to clean your attic; you never know what you'll find) Barb Norris, Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:44:38 EDT From: Dennis (The Troublemaker) McGee Subject: Re: The Earhart Forum Hey, battah, battah, hey. C'mmon battah, swing it. Let's go, let's go, let's go. Ok, Dusty, let's have a little chin music. Come on babe, put 'er in there. Zing it on by 'em. Go get em'.. don't let this bulsa bat scare ya'. Hey, battah, battah! Swing baby, baby swing. Come on man I'm getting hot out here. 'Fraid to hit me the ball? Come on man, swingthat lumber, Show me you gots some b***s. Hey, battah. hey, battah. Is that enough chatter from the outfield?. If I go any deeper into my repertoire I'll get fined by the FCC. LTM, who's a .241 lifetime hitter Dennis McGee #0149CE ************************************* Dennis, I knew I could count on you in a pinch.... P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:47:30 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: membership numbers Pat said: "As you see, it came through fine. The number after some names is a membership number---membership in TIGHAR, that is, which is $45/year and carries with it much cachet and any number of benefits. See the web site for details ." And don't forget to mention that TIGHAR also sells expired membership numbers to allow oldsters and newsters to get a highly prized double-digit number or mildly sought after triple digit one, too. **************************************** You are quite right, Dennis, that is a benefit of membership . Dennis' number is 0149CE--he's been around for ages. Must be gettin' old like the rest of us. Seriously, folks, we do welcome your participation on the Forum, and also as members of TIGHAR. Our strength is in our numbers and our knowledge---when we work together we can accomplish anything. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:48:46 EDT From: Tom Van Hare Subject: Gardner Island Surveys Regarding the extensive searches we've been undertaking at the National Archives, we have nearly wrapped up the process. The depth of our search has been considerably farther than others have gone in this regard, but even so, we have not turned up any useful data. We do have a wonderful hydrographic chart, which shows water depths in and outside the lagoon. This has its uses, of course, but sadly, the detail on the shore is left blank. The shore site survey maps are not in the system. I should reiterate that the entire island (Nikumaroro) was extensively surveyed and imaged as part of the pre-construction phase for the LORAN station during the 1940s. This was one of our key items to search for and examine, however, it is now clear that the data is not in the National Archives system. While this is a bit unusual, it is not completely unexpected. Before the conspiracy crowd claims another USCG or USN cover-up, please keep in mind that only 2 percent of all documents are ever saved and made part of the system. Too bad. If the plane was there, there would have been photographs in the survey file. Apparently, it was not deemed worthwhile to be saved by the system. Of note, if we had found even a single survey document from that trip, we would have had the names of those who were involved, which would have opened up a new avenue of examination. Still working on that from another angle, but it is a fairly remote possibility that we will uncover their names since the rest of the files were destroyed / not saved. This too appears to be a dead end unless someone somewhere remembers the survey itself or knew the team. The only remaining area of search, which remains pertinent whether or not the team finds bits of the plane on Nikumaroro this trip, is our search through BuAir records for the loan letter of a sextant to Fred Noonan. This involves examining every letter in the file and will take some time. We already completed the effort with the BuNav records, which revealed that USN aviation sextants do have a four number identification system (not unlike the numbers reported by Gallagher), but nothing more. There may yet be a "smoking gun" in there in the BuAir records -- a letter which records the loan of a sextant by those numbers to Noonan. We'll let you know. Thomas Van Hare ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:49:53 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Lockheeds > From Jack J. > >... > > As for Linda Finch, the AE "wannabe", and her poor attempt at a L-10-E > NR16020 look-a-like, it should be found at the bottom of the Pacific with the > wannabe in it! Never, ever wish for a good airplane to be at the bottom of the ocean, that is sacrilegious to the extreme. As for Linda Finch, well, we should practice God's love towards all, so at least give her a life preserver before you dump her in the ocean. Blue skies & LTM, Dave Bush #2200 **************************************** Charity is a Good Thing. Lifesavers are also nice, especially the lime-flavored ones.... P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:50:34 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Purple The US definitely did NOT decipher all Japanese code during 1937...most of the intelligence was collected by DF'ing and inference. Some codes were cracked, but certainly not all of them. This is true, even in WWII. On Tuesday, July 06, 1999 12:16 PM, Richard E. Gillespie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:51:45 EDT From: Pat Ward Subject: Auto licenses and holders > Lady pilots don't stall around". And the license > number was (get this) "AME1IA". Cool, huh? That lady pilot is a member of The Ninety-Nines (Int'l Organization of Women Pilots). The 99s sell those license plate holders,,,,,pmw ************************** Thanks, Pat. I wonder what sort of license plate holder TIGHAR ought to produce.... P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:53:58 EDT From: Janet Powell Subject: Re: TIGHAR Press Coverage From Janet Powell There I was this morning, stuck in a traffic jam on the M6, (those this side of the pond will understand fully!), when, having had a TIGHAR free week, I was daydreaming of news awaiting my return home. What of Ric and Co. I thought? Was it as hot on Niku and Fiji as it was on the M6? What of Tornadoes such as I experienced yesterday? I was just contemplating the relationship between tornadoes and cyclones, when day-dreaming merged uncomfortably with reality - BBC Radio 2 news talking of 'A small group of Americans out in Fiji looking for Amelia Earhart's bones and a Sextant box'! (It was as brief as that I'm afraid!) The uncomfortable feeling of having temporarily 'lost it' was only confirmed when in the next news item, TIGHAR's activities were replaced by some apparently more exciting news! (I won't bore you with the details - suffice to say it's replacement was hardly news!) On my return home I was shocked and amazed to learn of these so called 'rumours'! What's happening Pat? - I assume they are rumours??? As for my namesake.... >The Fourth what? 'Expedition darling, - Expedition!' Is this a relative? I suppose that if you go back far enough we all are - so what are any of us to Amelia and Fred??? LTM - whose off on yet another tangent! Janet Powell ******************** I trust you have now read the message from Tom King in Fiji. I know that Nai'a is on its way, I got a *very* brief message this morning. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:55:22 EDT From: Tom Van Hare Subject: Re: Purple Tom Abran wrote: > I know that U.S. intelligence broke the Japanese code and deciphered > all of their transmissions. Does anyone know when this happened? This was near the start of the war, not much before, with the acquisition of the so-called PURPLE machine, a Japanese cypher system, 97-shiki Oubun Injiki. But even then, without the key codes, the system was of only limited use -- it did, however, give great insight into the Japanese philosophy of cryptography. The real revolution happened in the months leading up to Midway in 1942 when Admiral Yamamoto transmitted a series of messages (actually involving over 45,000 codegroups!). It took months for the small, basement team of US intelligence analysts with IBM machines and punch cards to get, finally, 90% of the coded messages deciphered. This lead to the first real success of the US codebreaking effort, culminating in the defeat of the Japanese fleet at Midway. The reason that US codebreaking skills were so poor prior to that date was that leading up the WWII, the codebreaking side of things was quite underfunded within the military and foreign policy systems. "Gentlemen do not read other gentlemen's mail." -- that was the quote from the then Secretary of State, Harold Stimpson (I believe that was the name). Later, after he became Secretary of War, suddenly he had a change of heart -- it was, after all, wartime and we were dealing with the Axis powers. Anyway, I think that it would be quite unfounded to have any belief or hope that Japanese message traffic about Amelia's last flight would have been intercepted, recorded, and deciphered -- in actual fact, given the true nature of the time, it seems to me quite unfounded that any of those messages would have been sent in code anyway. Thomas Van Hare ********************* Thanks, Tom, very complete. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:59:19 EDT From: Tom Van Hare Subject: USS Bushnell Here is some more data from the Archives run we just completed, this being from two separate ships, the Bushnell and the Balsam. The logs of the "Survey Vessel" USS Bushnell were made during 1939. These are a few outtakes as well as a couple of notes. It is of interest that the Bushnell made repeated landings of supplies, men, and equipment, through November 1939 and December 1939 on Gardner Island. To give a flavor of the logs, some of the pertinent portions read as follows: Saturday, 4 November 1939 ------------------------- 12 to 16 (ed. note: time of day) Steaming as before on course 002 degrees T., 003 degrees PGC, 252 degrees PSC, at standard speed 10 knows, 92.7 R.P.M. 1206 Sighted Gardner Island bearing 005 degrees T., distance 13 miles. 1340 Ahead 2/3 standard speed. 1349 Stopped. Lying to off Gardner Island. Sent party ashore to make reconnaissance of landing and island. Average steam 200. Average R.P.M. 42.5. V. L. LOWRANCE, Lieutenant, U.S. Navy. 16 to 20 Lying to as before off Gardner Island, landing equipment. 1904 Underway on course 271 degrees T. and GC, 259 degrees PSC, at standard speed 8 knots, 73 R.P.M., to run night sounding line. 1935 Changed course to 177 degrees T. and PGC, 166 degrees T PSC. 1951 Took departure from Gardner /Island with wreck bearing 058 1/2 degrees T., distant 5.5 miles. Average steam 200. Average R.P.M. 22.8. T.D. SHRIVER, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy. Sunday, 5 November 1939 ------------------------- 4 to 8 Steaming as before on course 003 degrees T. and PGC, 353 degrees PSC, at 8 knots, 73 R.P.M. 0447 Changed course to 089 degrees T. and PGC, 078 degrees PSC. 0530 Sighted Gardner Island, left tangent bearing 091 degrees T. and right tangent bearing 100 1/2 degrees T., distant approximately 10 miles. 0640 Changed course to 110 degrees T. and PGC, 100 degrees PSC. 0650 Commenced steering various courses at various speeds, approaching west side of Gardner Island, Captain conning, navigator on the bridge. 0700 Mustered crew on stations; no absentees. 0708 Stopped, lying to, lower # MWB. 0715 Lowered #1 MWB. 0730 Hoisted out WB and one A.C. surf boat. 0742 #2 MWB with WB in tow left ship with equipmenet for shore party. 0743 #1 MWB left ship with A.C. surf boat in tow. Average steam 200. Average R.P.M. 54.6. J.H. FORTUNE, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy. 8 to 12 Lying to as before to westward of Gardner Island, using engines as necessary to maintain position. All boats transporting tower parts, supplies and equipment to the beach. Made daily inspection of magazines and detonator boxes; conditions normal. Average steam 200. B.B. CHEATHAM, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy. 12 to 16 Lying to as before to westward of Gardner Island, using engines as necessary to maintain position. Average steam 200. T.D. SHRIVER, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy. 16 to 20 Lying to as before. 1738 Ahead at standard speed 8 knots, 73 R.P.M., on course 158 degrees T., 159 degrees PGC, 148 degrees PSC, on passage Gardner Island to Carondelet Reef. 1730 Took departure from Gardner Island; wreck bearing 037 degrees T., distant 4 miles (ed. note: this wreck is probably the S.S. Norwich). 1742 Commenced sounding line. 1747 Changed course to 152 degrees T., 153 degrees PGC, and 143 degrees PSC. Average steam 200. Average R.P.M. 40. W.V. PRATT, Lieutenant (jg), U.S. Navy. ============================= ...and the logs continue in this way for quite some pages. If anyone sees anything of interest in this, please let me know. I could type even more entries for those interested. I would think that there should be some focus on the entry on 28th of November 1939, where: "1401 Discontinued running sounding lines, stood in toward lagoon entrace and stopped. Lying to. 1410 Commenced lowering boat and loading equipment for shore party. 1512 Lagoon survey party, with Lt. (jg) J. H. Fortune, U.S. Navy, in charge, left ship with equipment, provisions, and water for 23 men for 7 days." -- on Gardner Island. We now have complete crew lists for the ship as part of the log. ======================= Now jump ahead to 1944: ======================= Here is the entry in the logs for the USCGC BALSAM, which took on men for transportation to Gardner Island on 23 July 1944 and dropped them there on the 24th: "The following men reported aboard for transportation to Gardner Island: Lt. (jg) J. H. McGuire, USCGR; Ensign Charles Sopko, USCG; TURNER, Louis R.(522-544)C.M.1c; BIDZILLA, Peter(546-481)MoMM1c; BRASSER, Benedict J.(247-2280)C.M.1c; BREECH, William E.(665-742)S.C.1c; BURFORD, Glen L.(571-878)Sea.1c; DINKO, George(670-030)Sea.1c; EBEL, Albert V.(503-150)MoMM2c; FOREMAN, Kenneth E.(532-442)B.M.1c; JAMES, Jimmie F.(7009-396)F.1c; JAMES, Robert T.(598-184)MoMM3c; JOHNSON, Virgil L.(590-905)MoMM2c; LOWE, Donald P.(580-952)PhM3c; STASNEY, Gordon C.(535-736)C.M.2c; WAYCASY, Harry(527-710)MoMM3c; ZUKOWSKI, Raymond L.(666-903)Sea.1c:Ref- HQ/L 8 January, 1944 (POA)(CG-71-72-73-531)(Confidential). Also two (2) passengers for the British Government. Authority of Command Unit 203." ============== And that is about all she wrote. Much of this is probably rehash for the TIGHAR group, but is is interesting to note that there are no conclusions or mind-shattering discoveries in these logs -- does anyone see any significance that I am missing with regard to the November and December 1939 activities of the Bushnell hydrographic survey ship? Should we go back in and see if any of images or records remain (not likely) of the Bushnell's shore party activities? Also of note is that, if I am not mistaken, the shore party on the 28th of November would have put ashore not far from where Ric and the party are going to be shortly.... Thomas Van Hare ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:58:13 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: Purple >I know that U.S. intelligence broke the Japanese code and deciphered >all of their transmissions. Does anyone know when this happened? The US was reading Japanese diplomatic code just before Pearl Harbor (Dec 1941) and had their naval codes by late April 1942, in time for the Battle of the Coral Sea in the first week of May. william #2243 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:01:05 EDT From: Bob Brown Subject: Suggestion I have a suggestion. How about an addition of a "stock" message with each digest, for those who read the list as a digest, with a brief status. I don't mean current reports but just a brief abstract stating that previous expeditions have found some artifacts and now another expedition has been launched. I am suggesting it for any new readers who may not have the history of this very active forum. Bob *************************** It's a thought. I'll have to look into the technical aspects, the software interface for this maillist is a bear. Meanwhile, for anyone wishing an overview, I strongly urge that you go read the Highlights, which date all the way back to the beginning of the list. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:03:45 EDT From: Tom Abran Subject: Divebomber Jack J wrote: >According to "Lockheed Aircraft since 1913," by Rene J. Francillon, >there were 15 Lockheed model 10-E's built. The pressurized Electra, c/n >3501, was designated the XC-35 and was a "one-off" model of the Electra >series. The construction number, c/n-35 was a special number assigned by >Lockheed, rather than falling within the series 1000 to 1148 range of all >the other Electra's. The aircraft was ordered by the War Department for >research relative to pressurized cabins. The aircraft still exists, and is >part of the collection at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC. The pressurized Electra, XC-35, has a featured role in the movie "Divebomber" (1941). The movie stars Errol Flynn as a military doctor, trying to prevent pilot blackouts. Fred MacMurray plays one of the test pilots. (The Electra plays itself.) One of the more memorable scenes is a test flight of the new, pressurized aircraft. Although the interior shots are all soundstage sets, there is some great footage of the real thing. (Olive Drab does nothing for an Electra!) - Tom Abran (#2296) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:04:56 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Re: Intercepting Japanese code Re: Tom Abran's post of 7/6/99 The U.S. Navy established a covert, advanced radio listening post on Guam in 1928 to intercept Japanese Naval Fleet radio transmissions. This post was in operation through 1941, until the Japanese invaded & captured the island in early 1942. I've obtained a copy of special edition CRYPTOLOG, a publication of the U.S. Naval Crytologic Veterans Assoc., titled: Special Edition for Guam/Fall 1993, which provides a very comprehensive view of the listening post operation, through stories from individuals serving on Guam during that time frame. Unfortunately, none of the writers in this edition were stationed on the island during 1937, however I still hope to I.D. any personnel who were serving duty at that time & try to interview them (if still living) regarding any "unusual" radio traffic emanating from the Japanese Naval units in the area at the time of AE's flight. Actually, none of the personnel on the island (in the 1930's) was able to deciper or translate the messages they intercepted & all of the traffic accumulated was shipped to Washington, D.C. in bundles, with much of the intercept traffic never being deciphered or translated, as it was generally regarded as "routine" unless it pertained to any large scale, Japanese Fleet operation. (Most of the work accomplished by the station ("Baker") was to try & identify & locate individual Japanese ships in the fleet by monitoring their radio transmissions, even though they were unable to "read" the messages themselves.) One interesting sidelight revealed the fact that the Navy personnel from the listening post operated their own "Ham" station from the island & regularly communicated with Hawaii & San Francisco. (I hope to be able to I.D. any survivors & talk to them about whether they ever "scanned" the frequencies used by the AE flight during the Lae to Howland leg of the flight.) In one of the articles, written by a sailor stationed on the island, the fear was expressed that the Japanese on the mandated islands surrounding Guam were aware of their operations on the island & wondered what would happen to them if war came & they were captured. (Another sailor, actually captured when the island was invaded, insisted the personnel manning the listening post were treated no differently (lousy) than the other, civilian personnel on the island.) Recently, the question has arisen as to whether the British Navy or Intelligence may have operated a similar "listening post" in the Gilberts, as they had in Singapore. So far I've uncovered no evidence that they did, but I'm still searching. Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:31:05 EDT From: Bob Perry Subject: Re: Purple The Purple code was introduced in February, 1939 and was broken 18 mo. later, i.e., August, 1940. Many Japanese diplomatic messages, which used earlier codes, were being regularly deciphered as early as 1936. Bob #2021 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:32:05 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: TIGHAR license plates Pat asked: "I wonder what sort of license plate holder TIGHAR ought to produce...." How about one of polished aircraft-grade aluminum with the blue TIGHAR logo and a black tagline (a couple of these might be a little pretentious, but what the hell . . .): A. "To Save From Mistaken Zeal" B. "All Dead Aircraft Go To Heaven" C. "Archeology On The Wing" D. "History IS Important" E. "Aviation Archeology With An Attitude" F. "Find 'Em, Save 'Em, Love 'Em" G. "Rewriting History" H. "History, Preservation, Knowledge" OK, ya'll get the idea . . .let's see some more entries here! LTM, a reformed (advertising) copy writer Dennis McGee #0149CE ********************************** You know, I have this sinking feeling that I'll be sorry I brought this up.... P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:32:45 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Gardner Island Surveys Tom Van Hare: Are you talking about the 1939/40 Bushnell Surveys? I have made negatives of the original boat sheets from the National Archives Map collections. The field notes associated with those surveys are lost in the National Archives: I uncovered the documents transmitting them to the Archives, and the boxes that should contain them stop immediately prior to the Gardner Island survey. Sigh. I was looking at the Suitland Annex, prior to their movement to NARA II. Good luck, I know I didn't have any! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:33:21 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: Re: Pan Am, Noonan and Gatty That book has been out for over a year. It is one of the best sources of info/details on the Clippers across the Pacific.. Many details and pictures and the first cover mail details and the personal stories of two specific people make the book a very good addition to anyones library... It will be reprinted this year to correct a number of errors,typos, etc.... Jim Tierney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:35:00 EDT From: Daryll Bolinger Subject: Japanese Codes Red Book, Blue Book, Purple. Red Book; Cover name for the " Imperial Japanese Navy Secret Operations Code- 1918." "The 'Red Book' remained in effect until 30 November 1930." "Naval Intelligence obtained a photostat copy in 1921 or 1922 and a later photostat copy, including recent changes, in 1926 or 1927. This code was translated in the Navy Department by Dr. B.C. Haworth, assisted by his wife, and the translation was typed by Miss Castleman and Mrs. DuVerger. The original translation was completed early in 1926, but Dr. Haworth was permitted to verify the translation of the vocabulary, and did not complete his final translation until 1927.". The code contained 100,000 expressions, 10 volumes, 2 copies typed in 1927. Retyped in 1929 into " red buckram Mc Bee Binders", 2 volumes. 4 copies were made. Blue Book; "The ' Blue Book ' ( named after the color of its binder ). was our covering name for the 1930 edition of the Japanese Navy Secret Code, which was effective from 1 December 1930 until 31 October 1938. We acquired this code the 'hard way' - that is, by cryptographic analysis and reconstruction.". "The code consisted of about 85,000 code groups." "It was used only with super-encipherment,.....". Distribution of Blue Book: Navy Department (OP-20-G) CINCAF COM 16 COM 14 Purple code was in effect just before and during WWII. Source Capt. L.F. Safford U.S. Navy : SRH- 305. The same Safford that some believe can't tell the difference between GCT and GMT. Daryll **************************** Can any of this be verified from other sources? or is this just Safford's recollections? P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:37:19 EDT From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Postal covers and the Earhart flight Hi Pat, keep fielding those grounders. You're doing just fine. Somewhere in the dark recesses of my memory is the notion that AE & FN were carrying some number of special round the world airmail covers to be specially marked and posted by the Postal Service or some other entity. My recollection is that these postal covers were to be sold after the flight to help pay for the costs. What is the real story behind this memory, can anyone help me out? Seems to me that if the Electra came to rest on Niku, and if the locals scavenged aluminum from it, they would also have come up with these postal covers, if in fact they were still being carried in the plane. Have any of the former residents been queried as to having or seeing such an item? Granted, paper doesn't last too long out there, but if one surfaced and could be verified as authentic, we would have a smoking gun to work with. Andrew McKenna 1045C *********************************** Well, the postal covers did exist, and were aboard the plane. That's all we can say about them at this time. They were supposedly wrapped well.... I guess it's *conceivable* they would exist, at least in the sense of being identifiable in a forensic lab. We've never heard of any stories concerning paper, and frankly, I wouldn't think the Gilbertese settlers would have much use for or concern with paper. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:38:11 EDT From: Jeff Glickman Subject: Re: Purple complete information regarding purple remains classified to this day. Jeff Glickman Emergent Computer Corporation ***************************** !!!!!! thanks, Jeff. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:40:41 EDT From: Pat Subject: If you're looking for Mike Everette If you are looking for Mike Everette, he called today to tell us he's had a glitch in his email and will be getting it sorted out soon. As soon as he is back on line he'll let me know and I'll let everyone else know. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:03:41 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: License plate holders > Thanks, Pat. > > I wonder what sort of license plate holder TIGHAR ought to produce.... > > P TIGHAR - CAN YOU DIG IT? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:02:45 EDT From: William Webster-Garman Subject: Re: TIGHAR license plates Only one plate holder tagline would be appropriate, in my most humble opinion: "Love to Mother" ****************************** You're right, of course :-) P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:05:27 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: USS Bushnell I see a lot to be discovered here. If nothing else, we will rule out that this ship DID see the Electra or even any sign of habitation. ANY INFORMATION FROM GARDNER should be of EXTREME INTEREST and every tidbit should be studied to insure that it does not pertain to the matter of interest. Is it possible that the Bushnell or Balsam is the ship from which came our mystery photo? Crew lists should be scanned for all survivors and surviving family members for diaries, photos, etc. After all, even if there are no entries in the "official" logs, many servicemen kept diaries and may have included info not contained in "official" logs. Blue Skies & LTM, Dave Bush #2200 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:07:45 EDT From: Bill Moffet Subject: Re: Purple Ronald Clark's "The Man Who Broke Purple", Little, Brown & Co., 1977, says Japanese naval codes were "Red" and the US Navy had the standard solution to them by the start of 1939. We began receiving "Purple" at that time but only succeeded in deciphering it on Sept. 25, 1940. This was done by Col. Wm F. Friedman. This may not be very helpful. Clark says "the Japanese had nearly a hundred (codes) by the 1940's". I think it's safe to say that all sorts of people and places were intercepting ciphered messages since away before radio was invented. This hardly brings us any closer to who - and with what equipment - was eavesdropping in 1937. One problem with our quest is that 3105 & 6210 kHz were standard aircraft frequencies used by US planes - & undoubtedly others - around the world. This would limit the number of stations listening to them. LTM Bill Moffet 2156 ******************************** Yes, it's worth recalling at this point that the frequencies used by Earhart were absolutely standard---she was hardly trying to hide. P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:09:18 EDT From: Jon Greenberg Subject: Re: TIGHAR license plates Pat, it's a great idea. We can't all afford models, but license plate holders are another matter. How about one like the Earhart Project Fund donation card: Earhart Project logo, Niku IIII logo, and "Courage is the Price." LTM, Jon Greenberg 2047 ******************************* Tell ya what, guys, I'll look into it a bit and see what the realities are. Sometimes stuff like this you can only order in lots of 500 or something dumb, which we can't really do, but if it's possible to get a small enough order at a reasonable price, maybe we can do it. P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:14:30 EDT From: Roger Kelley Subject: Re: TIGHAR License Plate Holders I kinda like, "Archeology On The Wing." Another fund raising project ?? Roger Kelley #2112 ################### And a couple more from Dave Bush: WHERE'S AMELIA? ONLY THE TIGHAR KNOWS TIGHAR FLIES ##################### And from Patrick Gaston, a veritable fountain: Take your pick of the following: "TIGHARS do it ... on Niku" ... in Size 9 blucher oxfords" ... from 157 to 337" ... but the Japanese didn't" ... on 6210 kc, or was it 3105?" ... for Gallagher, too" ... with their wheels down" ... and have volumes to tell" ... on the fourth attempt" ... for The Fun of It" Please pardon the questionable taste of some of the foregoing. It's late. LTM (Whose license-plate holder reads, "MY DAUGHTER SOLOED ACROSS THE ATLANTIC AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS STINKING LICENSE-PLATE HOLDER") Patrick Gaston #################### From Tom Van Hare: All I can think of is... "To Earhart is Human, To Find Her - Devine" "Noonan is my CoPilot (ok, navigator - close enough)" "Nikumararo Beach Club" Thomas Van Hare ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:17:36 EDT From: Marty Joy Subject: Ships and small worlds I guess this is neither here nor there, but the name popped out at me. I worked for RADM V.L. Lowrance as a member of the Marine Detachment on board the U.S.S. Bremerton in 1958, a small world, no? Marty Joy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:20:38 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Postal covers and the Earhart flight >Well, the postal covers did exist, and were aboard the plane. That's all >we can say about them at this time. They were supposedly wrapped well.... >I guess it's *conceivable* they would exist, at least in the sense of >being identifiable in a forensic lab. We've never heard of any stories >concerning paper, and frankly, I wouldn't think the Gilbertese settlers >would have much use for or concern with paper. Ah, but these were interesting pieces of paper with curious pictures.. and colorful stamps, If I really know what a postal cover is. I doubt any would still exist but they might be remembered. ********************************* Well, these were folks who were working very very hard at putting together a village and a life in a way they couldn't have back home... they weren't "savages" or kids, just hardworking guys; I can't really see them as being amazed by colored printing ..... but you may be right, who knows. P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:21:55 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Re: Purple Here is a very comprehensive paper, authored by Capt. Duane L. Whitlock, USN Ret. & published by the Naval War College Review (Autumn issue/1995), covering the history of the U.S.Navy's involvement in the interception, deciphering & translation of the various Japanese diplomatic & military codes, from post WWI through WWII. ********************************************** The Silent War against the Japanese Navy Address:http://metalab.unc.edu/pha/ultra/nwc-01.html Changed:11:03 AM on Wednesday, April 30, 1997 *********************************************** Don Neumann ********************************* Randy/Bob/whoever, do you have time to take a look at this? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:23:37 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Re: Purple Another excellent source of information about the U.S. Navy's codebreaking efforts prior to & during WWII is a book authored by Rear Admiral Edwin T. Layton, USN (Ret.), titled: "And I Was There"....Pearl Harbor & Midway-Breaking the Secrets. Admiral Layton was the Pacific Fleet's Intelligence officer for Adm. Kimmel at the time of the Pearl Harbor raid & continued in the same capacity for Adm. Nimitz through the end of the war. His book provides some very interesting insights regarding the Navy's cryptological efforts as well as the personalities involved, he also spent time in Japan (during the same timeframe as the Earhart/Noonan flight) & enjoyed a good personal relationship with Adm. Yamamoto, during his tour in Japan. Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:22:33 EDT From: Tom Van Hare Subject: Re: Gardner Island Surveys > Are you talking about the 1939/40 Bushnell Surveys? I have made > negatives of the original boat sheets from the National Archives Map > collections. The field notes associated with those surveys are lost > in the National Archives.... That confirms our findings as well. We have charts, but all documents are apparently lost. We've covered extensive ground across the NARA system and can't find them either. Thomas Van Hare ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:26:05 EDT From: John Dipippo Subject: The Man in the White Shirt Does anyone have any info on who the man in the white shirt was that watched ae&fn take off from Lae on the last leg of the flight? ********************* Anyone? I think this came up earlier and no one could pinpoint it. Ric probably knows. I sure don't. P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:27:46 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: License plate holders Or maybe . . . "The First and Best in Aviation Archeology" "Dig It, Baby!" (Austin Powers would understand) "Going To Any Lengths" "High Flight Revisited" LTM, who will not tolerate double entendre Dennis McGee #0149CE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:03:09 EDT From: Barb Norris Subject: Report from Fiji Bula. Fiji is 8 hours behind and one day ahead of you. We have an interview today with a New Zealand magazine; thought I'd try to make a deal of the Kiwi survey party, but have little info here so thought I'd refer them to you for details. So -- be forewarned you may get something from them about dates, people, etc.. Hope this info is at hand. If nothing else, we're providing good media coverage; the press is really jazzed by the bones. LTM Barb and Tom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:03:51 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Another Report From Fiji Maybe it's a good sign that today we talked with someone who had seen the sextant box. Foua Tofinga was an officer of the Western Pacific High Commission -- knew Gallagher, Sir Harry Luke, et al, has been on Niku, and was involved in closing down the WPHC and shipping away its files. We were talking of Sir Harry's deputy, Vaskess, and he said "Oh, I've seen that box. Mr. Vaskess kept it on his desk, on top of his papers. A red-brown box, rather shiny, maybe from being dusted a lot." He doesn't know what happened to it, but Vaskess died here, and Mr. Tofinga has identified his last residence, which is only about a block from where we're staying. He didn't know about the bones box. He gave us a great deal of useful information, though, and we'll doubtless be talking with him again. Tomorrow we plan to interview Sir Leonard Usher, who was apparently here during the War and was the Queen's representative during the negotiations leading to Fiji's independence. Progress is being made. No word from Nai'a. LTM (who would like to have that box) Tom and Barb (who would wrist-wrestle Mom for it) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:05:01 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Re: Fiji Expedition Has anyone checked the cemetery records for unknown interments after the bones arrived in Fiji? Does Fiji have a "potters field" for interments of unidentified, poor, or transient remains? If so, who maintains those records. Given their nature, I can't believe the British would throw away or dispose of human remains "improperly". Given the report issued on the bones, it doesn't appear that they were sent on to Australia and I don't see the British "saving" them, but I could see them "properly" burying them. ************************** Tom and Kar/Barb/Kris are checking on this. P ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:15:02 EDT From: Mike Muenich Subject: Re: code breaking Mr. neumann beat me to the system reference Layton's book. It has a fairly detailed history of code-breaking between 1925 and 1941, identifies the various naval codes, the listening stations, and addresses some of the British and Dutch efforts. It is worth a review to identify where to look for some of the messages and radio traffic in early July 1937 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:16:01 EDT From: Daryll Bolinger Subject: Who's listening? This is in response to Bill Moffet's Thu. July 8 posting. >.......This hardly brings us any closer to who - and with what >equipment - was eavesdropping in 1937. One problem with our quest is >that 3105 & 6210 kHz were standard aircraft frequencies used by US >planes - & undoubtedly others - around the world. This would limit the >number of stations listening to them." The following, I believe, is an order issued by Comdr. Safford himself at the beginning of AE's first around-the-world attempt. It should be noted that AE's frequencies that she used is in the high frequency band. It is this same high frequency band that the Navy felt carried the most radio traffic that contained significant intelligence information. _____________________________________ OP-20-GX / AFC (Br 27) RESTRICTED From: OPNAV ACTION: COMTWELVE Released by: Comdr. McClaran Date 13 MARCH 1937 0013 IF PRACTICAL TRACK EARHART PLANE BY HIGH FREQUENCY DIRECTION FINDERS AVAILABLE PURPOSE OF THIS TRACKING FOR FURTHER COMPARATIVE TESTS NAVY AND PAA EQUIPMENT 1310 _____________________________________ Daryll ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:16:43 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: A resource available To forum members: This may or may not be relevant to the topic. I have in my custody via interlibrary loan two large volumes titled 'Combat Connected Naval Casualties in WWII' until 14 July if anyone needs a name looked up. Catch is it is indexed by home state of the serviceman. I already checked all states for Seaman J.L. Marks of the Colorado - not listed. E-mail me at if needed. Smooth Sailing Ron Dawson 2126 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:18:50 EDT From: Bob Brandenburg Subject: Re: Purple Pat: I'll be glad to have a look. Happens to be up one of my alleys. Bob >From Don Neumann > > Here is a very comprehensive paper, authored by Capt. Duane L. Whitlock, > USN Ret. & published by the Naval War College Review (Autumn > issue/1995), covering the history of the U.S.Navy's involvement in the > interception, deciphering & translation of the various Japanese > diplomatic & military codes, from post WWI through WWII. > ********************************************** > The Silent War against the Japanese Navy > Address:http://metalab.unc.edu/pha/ultra/nwc-01.html Changed:11:03 AM on > Wednesday, April 30, 1997 > *********************************************** ******************************* Thanks, Bob, and keep us all posted. P ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:21:47 EDT From: Max Standridge Subject: Headline. (From Pat: Why do I have a feeling I will deeply regret posting this?) HONOLULU (ap) A startled TIGHAR team was met on the beach at Niku Atoll today by the long-missing Amelia Earhart. Team members said they were surprised to see Amelia, alongside her navigator, Fred Noonan. Smiling and laughing loudly, Amelia and Fred finally greeted the team, which they said they've been observing off and on, from a secret vantage point on the atoll, for many, many years. "We made the Pacific Islands our home," the long-sought missing aviatrix said joyfully. "We are just so happy out here and life is so simple. We've traveled from island to island in our small boat," she said, referring to the craft that she and Noonan had constructed from parts of their aircraft. The pair landed on Niku Atoll in July 1937, stayed there for many weeks and then made their decision to live forever in the Pacific Isles, unmolested by modern civilization. "We were in love anyway," Amelia revealed to the world. "What better way to fulfill our fantasy of perfect love, than to stay in these Pacific paradises forever?" the glowing aviatrix asked. For his part, Noonan said he has no regrets. Slapping expedition head Richard Gillespie on the back, Noonan said he was "sorry for any inconvenience to anyone." "We just had to do this," he said. After a brief visit with the team, the two said their adieus and departed in their craft for yet another Pacific islet, one of the thousands they've lived on over the years. They refused, however, to tell their destination, and Gillespie agreed not to reveal it to reporters. "It's better this way," he smiled. **************************** Just in case.... OK, folks, this is a JOKE. All right? P ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:23:18 EDT From: Bob Perry Subject: Re: Purple Thanks, Don, for pointing out what I believe is a prime, authoritative source on this subject: <> Whitlock's paper, based on a talk, is an interesting, brief story on activities of the time. Layton's book is an whole historical picture of intelligence activities of that era. That story, about which other authors (such as John Toland, "Infamy") have also written, goes way beyond the scope of this Forum. However, it provides extremely fundamental lessons both on politics as well as human frailty that, one hopes, succeeding generations will have learned. I think we've worked this one over, Pat. Ltm, Bob #2021 ******************************* Hey, man, I'm just the conduit here... But maybe it is time to show cause why this thread should be continued? Like relevance to the project? P ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:24:01 EDT From: Dean Alexander Subject: Re: USS Bushnell > INTEREST and every tidbit should be studied > to insure that it does not pertain to the matter of interest. Is it possible > that the Bushnell or Balsam is the ship > from which came our mystery photo? Crew lists should be scanned for all > survivors and surviving family members for > diaries, photos, etc. After all, even if there are no entries in the > "official" logs, many servicemen kept diaries and > may have included info not contained in "official" logs. I agree that this info. should be looked at however one must keep in mind that the Bushnell and/or Balsam went to Gardner fairly soon after Earhart's disappearance. Interest in her fate was still at a pretty high level until the war broke out.I would think that anything remotely resembling an aircraft( or anything that could have remotely been associated with Earhart) would have seen a LOT of interest, and would have been studied. Even in 1947 when the wreck photo was supposedly taken I would have thought that the people who took it would have somehow followed up on it. This fact makes me somewhat suspicious that the wreck photo was not Earhart's. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:25:12 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Purple >From Don Neumann > >Another excellent source of information about the U.S.Navy's >codebreaking efforts prior to & during WWII is a book authored by Rear >Admiral Edwin T. Layton, USN (Ret.), titled: "And I Was There"....Pearl >Harbor & Midway-Breaking the Secrets. In my opinion, one of the finest first-person books about code-breaking efforts in the Pacific was "Double-Edged Secrets" by W.J. Holmes. Published by the Naval Institute Press, it's probably available from Amazon, B&N, etc. (Layton's book was excellent, too) Tom #2179 Tom Robison *************************** As of the end of the day today, this thread will die---be forewarned. P ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:26:04 EDT From: Suzanne Astorino Subject: Re: License plate holders I agree "love to mother" is it - I'd certainly be willing to buy one! LTM, Suzanne #2184 ********************* I'll make some phone calls. P ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:28:06 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Postal covers I'm sorry to belabor the point, but there were children on Niku, Children who (anecdote) played with the airplane wreckage that was there. These are the ones who would still be around, somewhere, and who might remember the covers, if any were found. Just curiosity... Is it known what those covers looked like? Anyone? ************************ Well, we've talked to some of those children, and they didn't mention anything, FWIW. Don't know what the covers looked like.... does anyone? P ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:28:59 EDT From: Mike Rejsa Subject: Re: License plate holders > From William Webster-Garman > Only one plate holder tagline would be appropriate, in my most humble > opinion: > "Love to Mother" That ones pretty hard to beat for class! Here's a few from me: "Around the world in 60 years" "TIGHARS do it with Amelia" "TIGHAR - it's Electrafinding!" My thoughts and dreams are with the teams In far off la-la land Where sextant, shoe, and ship, and she Lie buried in the sand (It's hard to turn this stuff off when you get goin!) Mike Rejsa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:29:53 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Re: USS Bushnell Re: Dave Bush post of 7/8/99 Dave makes a good point. Seems to me that any visitation to the island around the time frame including the date AE/FN would have landed there, should be investigated, especially if we can ID specific individuals who may have actually set foot on the island. If nothing else develops, we would at least have their descriptive recollections as to the physical appearance of the landscape & possibly be able to ruleout areas of the island they actually visited, as areas less likely to yield any useful material in our continuing search efforts. Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:23:09 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: Update on Gallagher info? Any word from our contacts in England who are trying to track down Gallagher's surviving (?) family members? The last I heard they were hot on the heels of learning the identity of the vivacious and elusive "Ruby." New info available? LTM, who thrives on information overload Dennis McGee #0149CE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:25:53 EDT From: Tom Van Hare Subject: Re: USS Bushnell Don Neumann wrote: > Dave makes a good point. Seems to me that any visitation to the > island around the time frame including the date AE/FN would have > landed there, should be investigated, especially if we can ID > specific individuals who may have actually set foot on the > island. Ok, here is the U.S.S. Bushnell officer list for the November-December 1939 period: COLEMAN, W. B. Commander 7-1-39 Commanding WALTON, C. L. Lieut-Comdr. 3-28-39 Executive Officer MILLER, C. H. K. Lieut-Comdr. 2-24-39 Navigator HARTT, B. A. Lieut-Comdr. 2-23-39 Eng. Officer 3rd. Div. Officer LOWRANCE, V. L. Lieutenant 7-1-39 Astronomical Officer FORTUNE, J. H., Fr. Lieutenant (jg) 2-1-38 Gunnery Officer Sound Boat Off. CHEATHAM, B. B. Lieutenant (jg) 2-1-38 Sound Boat Officer PRATT, W. V., 2nd Lieutenant (jg) 2-1-38 1st Lieutenant Commun. Officer CARROLL, H. F. Lieutenant (jg) 3-7-38 Tower and Sig. Off. 4th Div. Officer SHRIVER, T. D. Lieutenant (jg) 1-20-39 1st Div. Off. Sound Boat Off. TALMAN, B. L. E. Lieutenant (jg) 2-3-39 Sound Boat Off. Asst. Eng. Off. HUBBARD, H. D. Commander (MC) 12-30-37 Medical Officer KLAUER, L. A. Lieut-Comdr. (SC) 2-28-38 Supply Officer 2nd Div. Off. Again, though, I think that these leads have all been examined by others already, so it might be a good idea to ask around first. Thomas Van Hare ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:26:48 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: USS Bushnell I have copies of the Bushnell deck logs, including all servicemen aboard. Anyone in particular you would like me to look for? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:57:05 EDT From: Can Warren Subject: Re: the man in the White Shirt I haven't watched the take-off film in some time, but if the man is not wearing a tie, it's most likely Eric Chater, Manager of Guinea Airways. If striped tie (and the man's bald), that would be F.C. Jacobs of New Guinea Gold Fields; if patterned tie, it's L. I. Joubert, manager of Bulolo Gold Dredging Ltd. re the Earhart souvenir covers, there's a b/w reproduction on page 247 of "Amelia, My Courageous Sister" by Morrissey/ Osborne. Joe Gervais (Las Vegas) has a color copy of the only surviving example (no doubt mailed by a small Polynesian from Nikumaroro). Cam Warren ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:58:05 EDT From: Phil Tanner Subject: Re: Update on Gallagher info? >Any word from our contacts in England who are trying to track >down Gallagher's surviving (?) family members? The last I heard they >were hot on the heels of learning the identity of the vivacious and >elusive "Ruby." Ruby Margetts was traced as a staff member of Malvern Girls' College, a music teacher, but it seems to have been a dead end - she was 20-odd years older than Gallagher and I don't think anyone established a link. I wrote to the chairman of the local hunt who replied that he had forwarded my letter to a leading local hunting figure with a huge knowledge of hunting families, but I heard no more. I spoke and exchanged a few emails with Deirdre Clancy, whose adoptive mother ran the nursing home in Malvern to which Gallagher's effects were sent, and her husband, but have had no contact after an initial flurry. She knew of Gallagher, which was interesting enough in itself, I suppose, but didn't seem to have anything germane to the Earhart search and didn't know anything about Ruby. My effort to track down members of another offshoot of the family hasn't borne any fruit yet, but to date this consists only of a letter to the one person listed under the right surname in the right town. Again, no reply. ltm Phil Tanner 2276 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:59:40 EDT From: Jerry Ross Subject: Re: USS Bushnell [in response to the officer list for the Bushnell] I see a lot of chiefs. Where are the indians? ******************* I dunno. Is there a complete crew roster available, or are the Other Ranks just an amorphous blob? P ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:05:29 EDT From: Randy Conrad Subject: Re: Another Report From Fiji As I was reading the report from Fiji...it has occurred to me that maybe, and maybe just maybe...that you're looking in the wrong place. Yes, you are in the right country and looking in the right places; but just stop and think! Put yourself in Gallagher's shoes for a minute. You've found a sextant box and remains on a island; in most cases if you were a child and you found something neat in your backyard where would you keep it. In your little box of treasures! Did Gallagher have such a place! His resort home, a safe, a museum, or etc. Anyway, this is becoming exciting; but you have to stay focused on who the person is and what he would do with such a find! If I had such a box (box of bones), I would have them secretly looked at to see how old they are! Next, I'd probably put them in a place where no one could get to them! A museum vault until further notice maybe! Another thing, is these the only things that Gallagher had found! I haven't been up to date with his findings! Please, tell me more, about his travels to the island! Also, how big is this box? The size of a shoe box, a radio, or what? Also, does anyone know what happens to this wood after being exposed to moisture, or exposure to the elements over periods of years? Wanting to know! Give my love to mother, Randy ************************* Randy, I think you need to read a good bit of the stuff on our web site. Exactly what Gallagher did with the bones is *NOT* in question---under orders, he forwarded them to the custody of the authorities in Fiji. That's why we're looking in Fiji. Please see the Forum FAQs for most of the other answers to your questions. http://www.tighar.org/forum/Forumfaq.html Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:06:34 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: USS Bushnell > From Randy Jacobson > > I have copies of the Bushnell deck logs, including all servicemen aboard. > Anyone in particular you would like me to look for? Well, if no one has researched these, maybe their names should be provided to those who have the experience and knowledge to research them, or put them on the forum in case any of us know of any of these people. My wife's dad was in the Navy, but where he was stationed or what he did, none of us know. Guess we could try to find out from the gubmint, but I don't know where to start. Blue Skies & LTM, Dave Bush #2200 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:08:42 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Gallagher/Clancy/Ruby >From Dennis McGee > > Any word from our contacts in England who are trying to track >down Gallagher's surviving (?) family members? The last I heard they >were hot on the heels of learning the identity of the vivacious and >elusive "Ruby." New info available? I guess it's time for an update. I'll try to get that posted this weekend. As for Ruby, she has been identified but that doesn't get us anywhere. Ruby Helena Margetts was on the staff of the Malvern Girl's College. She was a music teacher. She was not the young woman we had supposed her to be. Her date of birth: July 3, 1885. Easily old enough to have been Gallagher's mother. We have no idea what her relationship to Gallagher might have been. I suspect it had to do with the horses and the stables. Gallagher may have spent holidays with his aunt who ran the nursing home, "Clanmere" in Malvern and he may have been into horses and riding, as Ruby seemed to be. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:09:24 EDT From: Suzanne Astorino Subject: Re: real things The quote about "the three things that are real" attributed to JFK was actually on a mug which Dave Powers gave to Kennedy as a birthday gift. I haven't been able to find an attributed source. From an old Kennedy Campaigner, Suzanne #2184 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:11:17 EDT From: Herman De Wulf Subject: Re: Lockheeds Sorry folks, but there must be some geographical gap. Reading your comments on Linda Finch from across the Atlantic I feel you know something that I don't know. What has Linda Finch done that you wished her and her airplane at the bottom of the ocean ? All I know about her is that I saw her plane at the Le Bourget in 1997. It was a beautifully restored airplane. Wish I could afford one like this. Herman *************************** Hyperbole, Herman. She didn't win a lot of friends with her approach to certain things, and she also has turned out to be not a really nice person in connection with her business life. P ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:11:52 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Re: USS Bushnell Tom & Randy, Re: USS BUSHNELL Providing no one else has already ploughed this field, it would seem reasonable to try & determine those on the list who may still be alive. If we can ascertain the dates of birth for the crew members & whether the Navy still has any present addresses for them, it would facilitate to some extent any attempt at contact. Unfortunately, such efforts are very time consuming & there is a need to evaluate whether any information that might be developed justifies the time being spent pursuing same. Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:12:02 EDT From: various Subject: Re: Headline On the topic of Ric Meets Amelia and Fred: from Don.... I knew it all along. *************************** From William Dohenyguy Hi: Find out what Max has been drinking and order me a case. William LTM ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:24:26 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: USS Bushnell I have the crew list for the Bushnell cruises, but it is too long to reproduce by hand transcription. If someone wants a copy, they can contact me for a photocopy. Didn't I give a copy to TIGHAR??? ************************** Randy, what you have given to Ric/TIGHAR is not necessarily known to me..... Ric's filing system is one of the great Mysteries. It certainly doesn't fall within MY job description . I'm just the business manager. P ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:25:46 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: USS Bushnell Personally, I don't believe that pursuing old crewmen of the Bushnell would be worth MY time, as memories get screwed up over the years. I'd much rather try and find those original field notes, if I could! ********************* Oh, yeah. I have to agree with Randy----unless someone kept a detailed day-by-day journal, it would just be stories. But those field notes....... P ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:26:28 EDT From: Mark Cameron Subject: Re: USS Bushnell If any crew members or their children (or anyone else we want to contact) turn out to be in the Chicago or Lake Michigan area, I would be glad to research and contact them for the Project --- my services are at your disposal Mark Cameron #2301 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:47:14 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Postal covers >From Cam Warren > >re the Earhart souvenir covers, there's a b/w reproduction on >page 247 of "Amelia, My Courageous Sister" by Morrissey/ >Osborne. Joe Gervais (Las Vegas) has a color copy of the >only surviving example (no doubt mailed by a small polynesian >from Nikumaroro). Yeah, I still wonder if we missed something by not asking those folks interviewed on Funafuti about those covers. It's not the sort of thing they would remember, or associate with the "pieces of an airplane," if the subject was not brought up. If the covers were remembered, it would change anecdotal generic airplane pieces to anecdotal Earhart airplane pieces. Cam, do you know whether Joe Gervais would make a copy of his color copy available as a JPEG file, or as an on-paper copy? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:53:33 EDT From: Pat Robinson Subject: MIlitary records To answer Dave Bush's question about his father-in-law being in the Navy (and not knowing where he was stationed, etc)... How to obtain personnel records Notice - By law records can only be released to the individual whose records they are, or if that individual is deceased, their next of kin. Records of personnel separated more than 15 months ago The Navy does not maintain the service records of individuals who have separated more than 15 months ago. These records are held by the National Personnel Records Center. The National Personnel Records Center holds the official individual personnel records of: Navy commissioned officers separated after 1902 Navy enlisted personnel separated after 1885 What is in these records: These records include: the full name of the serviceman next of kin (at the time of service) date of enlistment date retired or separated units with which served and any medals and awards to which the veteran was entitled. How to obtain these records: Information from these records is available to the individual, or if deceased, to the next of kin. A separate request should be sent for each veteran. If signed by the next of kin, the relationship to the veteran must be specified and proof of death presented. To expedite, getting information on an individual's naval career, you need download the Standard Form 180 [This is a .PDF file. To view and print this file, obtain the free Adobe Acrobat reader if you don't have it.] Fill in the Standard Form 180 (SF 180). You will need to provide the following information: full name under which service was performed, service number and/or Social Security number, branch of s