Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:18:06 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Re: Lae Takeoff Video ric: your prop "spins" but the electra never taxis onto the runway or takes off on webtv! not all that unusual, as very few interactive programs work on webtv. don neumann ************************************************************* From Ric Uh, Don, we're not talking about the Electra on the home page. All it is supposed to do is sit there and spin its prop. The Lae Takeoff Video is a separate feature on the site. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:07:05 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: sactodave, fraud, and conspiracies Well we do have an interesting range of responses to sactodave's accusations. Here's today's crop: *********************************************************** From Dennis McGee 0149 I say let sactodave rant on. So far all he has done is blow smoke and -- as is usual of many conspiracy types -- offers no INDEPENDENT research of his own. Hell, this guy doesn't even bother to offer his own theory about what happened! His alluding to TIGHAR defrauding the public is equally porous, offering no proof, of course. No, sactodave's ranting is that of the ignorant, the lazy, and the hapless. The raving follows the pattern of many conspiracy-types that in their own souls feel powerless to effect their own destiny. To compensate, they create "conspiracies" against themselves to explain their own failings or short comings. This attitude creeps into their everyday actions and manifests itself in habitual negative thoughts regarding just about everyone and everything. I say let sactodave rant and we'll all get a good lesson in the psychology of the conspiracy crowd -- plus that you'll save the cost of a subscription to "Psychology Today." *************************************************************** From Dave Bush 2200 Regarding the person who thought we had little evidence and were running a scam - This person sounds like they just haven't gone through all the "clues" that have been found, the historical documents that have been researched and the "hypotheses" that have been put forward based on that research. It is easy to look at just what is said on the forum on a daily basis and reach the conclusion that not much evidence is put forth. In the past you have advised new forum subscibers to look at the postings of evidence before making a judgement about the validity of the work done by TIGHAR. I would suggest that this person do likewise. But there is no reason to be adversarial with anyone about anything. They are welcome to their beliefs. After all, it is hard to give up a lifelong belief, no matter how uninformed it may be. We can only ask people to look at all the evidence, ask questions when they aren't clear on a point, and try to make an INFORMED opinion after they have really considered all the information that TIGHAR has amassed. I was skeptical at first because I believed all the previously published hypotheses that were put forward as "truth". But being a pilot and using the scientific method, I realized that the most likely scenario was that put forward by TIGHAR. I want AE/FN found, and I want the truth out there. Your wealth of research data has gone a long way in convincing me. The logs from the Itasca, the reports from the Brits, etc., show that TIGHAR has spent a great deal of time in approaching this scientifically, not emotionally, as some have done. I believe quite strongly that your hypothesis is the correct one because it is so well documented and fits the evidence (clues) that have existed, but were either overlooked or only recently came to light. Love to Mother, Dave Bush #2200 *************************************************************** From Dean Alexander I think that all of the comments about fraud etc. are based in ignorance and perhaps jealousy, although a lot stranger things have happened. I think it is wise to remain skeptical of people, organizations and causes, however I feel Ric and Tighar have done a great job so far. You continue to have my support. **************************************************************** From Bill Leary Jerry Hamilton wrote: > While you may have accepted his comments with reasonable calm, I didn't. > I say tell him to stuff it! And censor him from the forum. Although I'm cleary not as deeply into the search as some of the rest of you are, I think I can still understand your feeling here. But, there are (at least) three reasons which come to my mind that illustrate that Ric's approach is the right one. First, this sort of view WILL happen, and now it's been addressed and the answers are on record. Future instances can be referenced to Deja-News or perhaps Ric could make up a "No, this isn't a fraud" page for the web site with the material already written on the subject. That could then be referenced when the next instance occurs. Second, maintaining calm in the face of adversity shows that you are aware of why you're doing what you are doing and are not just going off half cocked or just trying to suck bucks out of people. Third, posting (and handling) these "negative posts" shows that this isn't just a mutual admiration society (or mail list). Including the opposition and critical views promotes thinking and illustrates honesty. - Bill *************************************************************** From: Monty Fowler This discussion on "Fraud on Niku" and "planting evidence" dismays me for several reasons: 1) I have never been to Niku, but based on past postings, it is not a place I would voluntarily go to simply to make someone else 5,000 miles away look silly. I can think of much better ways to make someone look silly that cost a whole lot less; 2) You never lie to the media. They will eventually find out (I know, I used to be in that game), and then you will be publicly drawn and quartered for all the world to see and for all eternity; 3) Other forum readers may disagree, but I find the moderator and major TIGHAR layers to be distressingly level-headed, and not the type who would stoop to that level of lunacy. Bottom line - if you haven't walked a mile in their Cat's Paw replacement heels, then butt the heck out. ************************************************************** From Kris Tague Dear Ric, While you may find our crier of "fraud" insulting for his accusations, I'm kind of insulted he doesn't think we'd come up with much "better" artifacts than that if we were "faking" it. Kris ************************************************************* From Ric I hope that you don't have to have seen Kris covered from head to toe in dirt and sweat after hours of archaeological grubbing on Niku to appreciate how funny that posting is. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:08:54 EST From: Marty Subject: Bananas forever Ref Bananas forever (museum) Got a nice personal e-mail from a lady on Vashon Is.WA She has been there, done that. Unfortunately I managed to delete her name after I replied, and I don't remember the nice lady's name. Marty 724C ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:19:03 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Lae Takeoff Video I've had a similar problem with the download version - I got the player, which works fine, but when I run the downloaded version, it's just a black screen. I'm running it on a P2, 233mhz w/3d graphics,etc... **************************************************************** From Ric Hmmmm... Is anyone NOT having problems with the download version? How much of a problem do we have? *************************************************************** From Tom Robison >>From Michelle >I just tried to take a look at the Lae takeoff video on the TIGHAR >website. I just saw the takeoff from Lae on TV. (well, I think it was genuine) The local PBS station just showed a half-hour program called *Heroines of the Sky*, about the Linda Finch flight, but most of it was archival footage of Amelia. I didn't tape it, alas, but I assume TIGHAR has a copy of this program? If not, let me know, I'll call the station and ask them to play it again. Tom #2179 *************************************************************** From Ric Heroines of the Sky doesn't ring any bells, but my stomach isn't strong enough to watch Linda Finch. Most TV shows that use the Lae footage edit it because the unedited version is pretty choppy. What we have on the website is the whole thing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:21:34 EST From: Roger Kelley Subject: Re: Fraud You guys are doing just fine with the evidence you've collected, and that which will be collected in the future. I think yer getting real close to AE and/or her Electra. Keep up the good work. It always makes me grin when folks get mad at success. Carry on! Love to mother, Roger Kelley, #2112 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:50:58 EST From: Deb Subject: Re: corks Yes, I thought about the possibility that someone else had already scavenged the site before bringing it to the attention of the officials. After all, two metal canteens, each cut in half, would make four nifty metal dishes! If this was the case, then little wonder the stoppers were left behind. I really don't think coconut crabs would be interested in making metal dishes, unless there's a giant, mutant variety no one knows about ... yet. Deb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:58:56 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Re: Game? there is a web site that has a simulation of the earhart/noonan "around-the-world" flight: www.abacuspub.com/catalog/s337.shtml don neumann *************************************************************** From Ric I took a quick look and they have it set up for Microsoft FlightSimulator which (being a Mac user) I can not use. Could somebody take a look at this program and give us a review? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:09:04 EST From: Don Newumann Subject: Re: Lae Takeoff Video i knew that, i'm talking about the section of your web site that accesses the video of the lae take-off, it just won't "roll" on webtv, unfortunately. don neumann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:13:13 EST From: Dan Postellon Subject: Re: Bananas forever Has anyone checked with the International Banana Club yet? http://www.Banana-Club.com Dan Postellon ************************************************************** From Ric Not that I know of, but I sort of think that with all the new information we have there are some potentially more rewarding avenues of research we can pursue. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:16:33 EST From: Vickie Subject: Re: Lae Takeoff Video The Lae Takeoff Video downloads and plays in the smaller version just fine on a Power Mac with RealPlayer version 5.0 plug-in. The longer version I downloaded and got computer speak on the page within my browser (Netscape 3.0), saved the document to my desktop and then opened it up with RealPlayer. It converted the saved document and ran a larger screen version of the Takeoff Video. Hope this helps. Vickie Indiana ************************************************************** From Ric Indeed it does. Thank you. That's just the way it's supposed to work. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:51:58 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: Abacus "Earhart Flight" look-see Abacus has produced what they call "theme scenery" that can be added to any flight sim program. I did a real quick look at a review by one Sean "Crash" Reilly of Westwind Virtual Airlines. Mr. Reilly did a good job of wringing out this bad boy. He flew the program from California to St. Louis (in Africa) covering about 10 days of the original planned 28-day trip. Along with his review he published many different virtual views of the trip, including views from the cockpit of the L-10E, from an "overhead camera" watching the Electra take off/landing, of the Electra (well, not really but more on that later) overflying various points and doing things the virtual FAA will eventually ground him for. One of the interesting stunts he did was buzz Miami just before landing and the program showed him about 100 feet off the Miami causeway and about 50 feet above Miami Bay. I'm sure the virtual letter from the virtual FAA is in the mail. Because the Electra was so slow (about 160 kts?) Reilly often switched planes in mid-flight to speed things up. Therefore some of the scenery shots include 737s, 747s or Electra IIs instead of the L-10E. The overall quality of the graphics was very good for both interior and exterior shots, especially the panel for the L-10E -- no VORs, GPSes, etc., only ADF. What fun, hey? All in all, it looked like a fun program, even though other reviews said that it takes time (lots of time!) to set things up for the Earhart flight. It sells for $40 and if a TIGHAR member was able to spend the money, time, time, and time setting the program up, it would certainly be a nice feature to donate to the TIGHAR site. And if they were good -- I mean REALLY good -- they might be able to simulate the final few minutes of flight as it ended at . . .ah, well, let's not rush to a final decision here. Happy times! LTM Dennis McGee #0149 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:31:20 EST From: John Marks Subject: Love to Mother Would someone be so kind as to explain the context and significance of the "Love to Mother" closing salutation? Congratulations on a remarkable web site and a most impressive achievement. TIA, -- John Marks ************************************************************** From Ric For new forum subscribers who may be wondering what this Love to Mother (often abbreviated to LTM) business is all about, here's the story: A few years ago, a woman named Patricia Morton was doing Earhart research at the National Archives and stumbled upon a telegram dating from 1945 which contained a whole list of messages to friends and relatives from internees at a recently-liberated camp in China. One was addressed to Mr. G.P. Putnam, 10042 Valley Spring Lane, North Hollywood, California The text reads: Following message received for you from Weihsien via American embassy, Chungking: Camp liberated; all well. Volumes to tell. Love to mother (*). The (*) is explained at the bottom of the page as meaning signature omitted. The State Department forwarded the message to Putnam via SpeedLetter (a type of quick-notice letter) on August 28, 1945. The letter was sent by Eldred D. uppinger, Assistant Chief, Special War Problems Division. The document has no stamp to indicate that it was ever classified, nor does it have a stamp indicating that it was ever declassified. Anyone who has ever obtained formerly classified documents at the National Archives knows that they are real careful about that. There appears to be no indication that the document was ever classified. That's hardly surprising given the explanation of what a SpeedLetter is, which appears in the upper right corner of the document; "This form of communication is used in the interest of speed and economy. If a reply is necessary, address the Department of State, attention of the Division mentioned below." In Putnam's reply he merely updated his address and asked to be notified if anything else was heard. Weihsien was not a prisoner of war camp. It was a Civilian Assembly Camp - an internment camp. According to a 1995 letter by one of the American soldiers who liberated Weihsien on August 17, 1945 there were no Japanese military personnel in charge of the camp. It was run by a Mr. Izu of the Japanese Consular Service. All internees were well documented. Amelia Earhart was not there. On the 18th a general inspection was made of the camp and twelve internees were hospitalized and selected for early departure due to poor health. They were evacuated by C-47 on the 28th, the date of the telegram and the SpeedLetter. Why was such a message sent to Putnam? Sadly, it was most likely a hoax. In the years following Amelia's disappearance GP was beset by dozens of false leads and scams. Some were financially motivated. Others were apparently just cruel jokes. Whether the Weihsien message was a joke or a mistake, it's quite clear that it was not from Amelia Earhart. Nonetheless, the letter is frequently held up by conspiracy theorists as evidence that Earhart was "captured" by the Japanese, held prisoner, and returned to the U.S. after the war. This telegram and the nonsense which has surrounded it in recent years has prompted those of us most involved in TIGHAR's Earhart research to adopt the "Love to mother" closing as a reminder to keep our objectivity and skepticism intact when evaluating any new evidence. Love to mother, Ric You can order your very own Love to Mother shirt and refrigerator magnet on the TIGHAR website at http://www.tighar.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:09:30 EST From: Skeet Gifford Subject: Fraud After exhaustive research, I have discovered that *sactodave* is a pseudonym for Richard Gillespie. The faux-postings were apparently intended to enhance his sagging 11:00 p.m. ratings. Happy Birthday, Ric. What day is it? *************** This is Pat... Ric's birthday is December 8. But, as his wife and partner in various crimes, I can guaran-damn-tee you that he is *not* SactoDave..... As Kristin mentioned, if he were going to pull a fraud it would be much better, or at least more artistic, than what we've got now! P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:11:22 EST From: Duncan MacKinn Subject: Re: Game From memory this software was reviewed in "Computer Pilot" magazine a couple of issues ago. (Let me know if you're really interested and I'll dig out my copy.) It is also covered in Nick Dargahi's "Ultimate Flight Simulator Handbook". (On a separate note he writes about AE/FN, mentioning your research but gets some of his facts wrong and reports common myths such as FN being an alcoholic.) The software is an add-on for Microsoft Flight Simulator. It provides period scenery of the airports AE used, as well as a replica Electra aircraft, including panel and appropriate performance characteristics such as fuel consumption, to recreate the feeling you would have of flying her actual journey. I understand that one of the major differences is how it treats Howland Island. I think that it puts a NDB (Non-Directional Beacon) there for ease of navigation, supposedly simulating the CG vessel, but in reality making landfall very easy as long as you head off in the right direction from PNG. Please let me know if you want more info. Duncan Wollongong, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:10:29 EST From: Marty Joy Subject: Re: Fraud Re fraud Soooooo Wic, you cwever wascal ! Planting all of those artifacts to finance trips to that garden spot of the Pacific, Niku, for you and your band of brigands,eh? Next time find the stuff on Maui, I'll go with you. I was beginning to miss the "color" that Dick Strippel and Ed Dames added to the Forum, it seems we now have a worthy replacement. Marty 724C **************** Hey, I'm holding out for St. Maartens in February, myself. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:15:01 EST From: Mike Everette Subject: Re: a technical analysis of the Western Electric > Subject: Re: A TECHNICAL ANALYSIS OF THE WESTERN ELECTRIC > > Did you look at that strange box-like object in the Wreck Photo? Ring any > bells? > > Ric Yes, I did... it is very interesting indeed. At the very first glance, this was my reaction: I said, quote: "Damn... that kinda looks like a Command Set." IF this is a radio.... and, IF it is of American origin.... (and we cannot be certain that either question may be answered in the affirmative) THEN... it looks awfully much like the front panel of a Command Set Transmitter... either a Navy ATA, Army SCR-274N or one of the AN/ARC-5 transmitter units. These are of World War II vintage. (Not only the US used these radios. The Allied air forces did as well.) I base this opinion on the "round object" in the center, which looks very much like the "frequency" dial on the Command Set transmitter unit; and also on the apparent presence of a small white "fleck" which could be (note: COULD be, not IS) the metal tuning chart which was found in the upper left-hand corner of the front panel of any of these transmitters, on which a technician would pencil in the dial settings for the various controls to operate on a given frequency. There are other things about the photo, however, which argue against this being what it is. Something is right below the surface of my brain, which has not yet come to light.... The Command Set transmitter front panel measures 5 inches wide by about 7 inches high. The transmitter would be mounted in a shock-mounted rack which, depending upon the installation, would hold one, two, or three physically identical units (each operating on a single frequency) side by side. If this is a Command Set, there is some stuff beside it which I have yet to identify; and which does not seem to belong there. There is only one transmitter present, if this is what it is. Most American and Allied military aircraft were fitted with two transmitters. The receivers would have been in a separate rack, and usually the aircraft carried three: beacon band 190-550 KHz, HF bands 3-6 and 6-9 MHz. Certain Navy aircraft may have carried more transmitters or receivers, or both; but usually larger planes like PBMs, PB2Ys or PB4Ys. If the aircraft in the Wreck Photo is a Lockheed 10 of US Military origin, I dare say it would have carried only 2 transmitters and 3 receivers, much as a Beech SNB/C-45/Model 18 did (but that bird has its radio gear in the tail section). I say this LOOKS like it MIGHT be a Command Set at first glance... if it is a radio, it could be British, Aussie or even Japanese. I don't know a lot about the vintage avionics from any of the above; but do have access to a wartime TM-E Signal Corps reference which has pictures and data on German and Jap radio gear. I will go take a look. Also, recently discovered some more web sites dealing with Aussie gear, but most of it is not aircraft. I need to look closer, and for others. Is there any likelihood that this aircraft is an Australian bird? Did the Aussies get any Lockheed 10s or 12s? I do not think anything in this "box" is Western Electric stuff... at least, not yet. I don't think it is big enough to have been the cockpit console in which the receiver control head, with the tuning dial, is mounted; but let me blow it up some more and turn it over and over.... hmm. Were any of the articles I sent helpful in any way? If it will help, I can send you (by mail, don't have a scanner) some copies of pictures of a Command Set transmitter, and complete installation. Judge for yourself. 73 Mike #2194 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:18:19 EST From: Pat Thrasher Subject: About the forum and the press Hi everyone.... As I type Ric is getting on a train in Wilmington to go to New York and be on the morning news shows tomorrow, or at least ABC... the CBS shows he will be on won't be the rush hour show, I'm not sure just what the heck is going on. And he will be on NBC Today on Friday morning. Catch him on Good Morning America at (latest word, may change) 7:09 am. This last big bit of publicity is quite encouraging. Please check your local papers, we like to have clips. Please include the name of the paper, city, date if you send us something. This is ammo for helping get sponsors, so it's important to show as much stuff as we have. Let me know what you see. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:19:49 EST From: Jim Kelly Subject: Mouse pads and plants Ric: I got my mousepad [and a darn nice one it is]! AND I believe! If I was to plant evidence I'd probably go to the wrong island... LTM Jim Kelly #2085 ************* Well, I'm glad *someone* got a mousepad. No kidding, they really did get sent. I guess I will need to compile a list of who didn't get them and send out more..... Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:15:44 EST From: Forest Blair Subject: Army records center3 Can any of you provide an address for the US Army records center that may know the addresses of retired Army officers? Am trying to contact another helicopter pilot who was at Canton when Bruce found the engine. Hoping the pilot can give us more air crew names and information . The only info we have on the pilot is his rank/name, Major Harold Martin, and that he was stationed at Fort Rucker (Alabama, I think) before coming to Canton. Martin is also in one of the slides Bruce is reviewing. All kinds of thanks for any help. Forest #2149 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:21:21 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Lae takeoff video Both work for me, but I cannot find the downloaded version anywhere on my computer under the name amelia_3.m*. It never asked me where to dump it! > I've had a similar problem with the download version - I got the player, > which works fine, but when I run the downloaded version, it's just a > black screen. I'm running it on a P2, 233mhz w/3d graphics,etc... *************** I am going to have our gurus look into all this and see what they say. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:26:05 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: corks In a message dated 98-11-30 08:15:37 EST, you write: >I have a hard time attributing all the missing stuff to coconut crabs. I have >a pretty good hunch where the two missing shoes went. I've got 'em right here. I was thinking (sic). How far do you think it is from -- what was it Gallagher said, 5 feet from the high springs? -- and the location of the TIGHAR shoes? Maybe in 1940 a good deal of stuff -- including our shoes -- were scattered back in the bush beyond the radius that Gallagher et al searched. They say I can expect a good crowd for my schpiel on Thursday night here in Madison. I'm lunching with Jim Kelly tomorrow. LTM TK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:31:01 EST From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: sactodave, fraud, and conspiracies Ric, there's a good point in all the posts about Sactodave and alleged fraud, etc. The few folks I have talked to about TIGHAR and the good work ongoing are very skeptical, for a variety of reasons. Try as I might, it is hard for a layman such as myself to convince others that TIGHAR is (very likely) on the right track. (many folks seems to be unclear on TIGHAR's motives. storical research for it's own sake doesn't seem to be credible enough, urprisingly) *********************** Yes, we run into this as well. We *must* have some ulterior motive, why would anyone waste their time with this otherwise? *********************** How about a new page on the web site, addressing some of the concerns of the naysayers, one document that the skeptics can start out with and get a better understanding of TIGHAR's motives. Entitle it "Newbies and Naysayers, Read Me First! or something like that. ************************ This is a good idea. I will mess around with it some and see what I come up with. ************************ And if I were writing it, I might mention Kris Tague's point, that if the extant evidence had somehow been manufactured, wouldn't you have "manufactured" something a little more dramatic? ************************ Well, I'd like to think so. ************************ And for those who question why TIGHAR is continuously begging for money, how about a page showing the itemized costs of the last Niku expedition? And perhaps some comparisons to other scientific expeditions. How much did it cost to dig up King Tut? What did it cost the long-suffering American taxpayer to find the Titanic? ************************* All good questions. All you researchers out there, help us out! I can surely show where the money goes (we print this occasionally in TIGHAR Tracks, for one thing). But how much *did* it cost to find the Titanic? Bunches, I bet. ************************* Love to mother. Tom #2179 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:33:53 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Re: corks and chains Ric wrote: >Did civilian canteens in the 1930s still use >corks rather than screw-on caps? How wierd would it be for the chains from >two canteens to come loose and the canteens themselves disappear leaving only >the corks and chains at the site? On the other hand, whatever container(s) >the corks stoppered somehow went away. I dont know about the 30's, but during my childhood forays into the deserts of the American West with my father looking for fossils during the 60's , we often carried a canvas water container that, if memory serves, had a cork stopper on a chain. The canvas sweated just enough to allow the evaporation to keep the rest of the water cool. The Whole arrangement had a rope handle, and the only other metal parts was a round mouth piece that the cork stoppered, and perhaps some grommets for the rope handle. A canvas water bag would certainly have rotted away on Niku leaving only the metal parts and possibly the cork. Since the metal mouth was not attached to the cork or the chain, the cork and chain could easily be found detached. We may still have one somewhere. Want me to look? Andrew McKenna #1045C ******************** Thanks Andrew, please do. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:32:46 EST From: Marty Joy Subject: Re: the Lae film About 12 seconds into the film there is what appears to be, a Caucasion youth about 12 years old, standing next to the port side hatch. Wouldn't it be interesting to find out the identity of this child, and what he or she heard AE and FN talking about prior to take-off? Marty724C ***************** ??????????????? Someone want to examine the film very closely and report on this? Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:34:59 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Missing artifacts/bones Ric wrote in response to Tom K wondering why stuff was not found with the bones etc.. >>> I think that it's possible that some souvenirs in addition to the >>>Benedictine bottle were picked up before Gallagher got involved. It may also >>>be that there is still stuff laying around yet to be found. We know of one other artifact that was picked up....the "inverting eyepiece" for the sextant. It was allegedly lost by the native who found it. I have a gut feeling that a "cool" item like that was not lost. So yes, natives were grabbing stuff. Gallagher apparently expresses some mild alarm when he hears the bottle has left the island. He tells his native telegraph operator to send a message asking for the recovery of the bottle. It is possible that the native telegrapher spreads the word and the other natives decide to shut up about their precious finds......they think 1) I found some cool stuff that I do not want to give up and 2) I do not want to get into trouble. Obviously we were not supposed to be taking stuff or for that matter burying bones. I speculate that other artifacts were found and not reported. Could stuff still be laying around? yes, the scatter area/footprint, however, could cover a lot of ground, Ric and I speculated during the England trip that a giant crab could drag a bone at least 50 yards from where he found it without too much trouble (back to his hideout), that leaves a search area 100 yards in diameter or roughly 2 football fields, .....and, apparently stuff was scattered around, the natives found the skull but not the bones or the sextant box, surely they would have grabbed the box had they seen it (you grab stuff on a resource poor island, no shopping malls), a wider search was needed to find other stuff, the lack of belt buckles, rings, watches etc. is worrisome, however, that is the exact stuff (shiny) that is dragged underground by crabs and rats, I saw a forensics guy on the Discovery channel checking out a site where a skeleton was found, after doing a ground level search he started digging holes and climbing trees. You climb trees to find the persons hair in birds nests. The birds will grab every bit of it. (he found the persons hair in a nest). After clearing the ground he started excavating all the rodent holes. After doing this he found jewelry, a jaw bone (with shiny fillings) and many other smaller bones. All down in a rodents nest. As far as the missing skeleton goes, Mr. Bauro says two skeletons were found. One up by the Norwich City and one on the eastern end of the island. Yes, Bauro's story is anecdotal, but so far the anecdotes have held up to scrutiny. The Kilts story also says that the remains of two people were found. Two independent anecdotes mention that two sets of remains were found. It is possible that a skeleton was found in 1938-39 and then later (in 1940) the Gallagher related bones/skull are found (a liberal interpretation of Kilt's story even suggests this). This is the story that emerges if you put the Bauro and Kilts stories together. gotta go... Love to Mother Kenton Spading ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:39:22 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Corks and Thermos For Fred Madio If you have opportunity, it would be interesting to check out Thermos in Norwich. You might be able to find out whether they produced a Thermos bottle with a cork secured with a chain in some past time. If you should discover this to be the case, it would be interesting to know how the chain was attached to the cork and how the other end was attached to the bottle... to some part of the outer shell which was probably steel. Good Luck! It might prove an interesting experience in general. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:47:35 EST From: Kelly Small Subject: Re: Lae Takeoff Video I've been a member of the forum for awhile but have never sent in a post. I just saw on CNN that bones found on Nikumaroro may be those of Amelia Earhart. I assume they were talking about TIGHAR's research. Hey, I can never get Real Player to work on my computer so guess I won't get to see the Lae takeoff video. :-( Kelly Indiana PS (Hey Vickie...what part of the Hoosier state are you from?) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:51:00 EST From: Kelly Small Subject: Re: Bones and Silence I never really told you about myself. I have been interested in the AE story for as long as I can remember. (I'm 32) I probably have seen the Lae takeoff video, I tape anything on AE that I can from tv. I have read everything I can get my hands on about AE. In college I wrote a research paper on her life. I know the forum is not about her life but her disappearance and solving the mystery. I enjoy reading the postings from the forum and look forward to them everyday! I don't really have any skills that could help your research but I'm sure interested in this mystery being solved! You may have already thought of this but thought I'd mention it. Have you considered doing DNA testing on the bones that were found to compare to DNA from a living Amelia relative? I think they did this with the bones of Jesse James to prove they were really his bones. Just wondered. Thanks! Kelly Indiana ********************** We don't have any bones!!!! Ooooh, gee, I hope not too many people have gotten this impression. All we have is the *report* about the bones. If/when we find bones, yes, we *will* do DNA testing. The family has indicated a general willingness to participate. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:52:15 EST From: Subject: CNN article about bones Take a look at this! http://www.cnn.com/US/9812/02/amelia.earhart.ap/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:53:13 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: In the News So.... I'm just casually reading my morning paper and guess what catches my eye? Headlines: Bones Found In 1940 Could Be Earhart's. Even a quote from Ric, "We have probably the most dramatic archival and scientific evidence in 61 years..." Of course, as usual, the press manages to mangle the facts ("Precise dimensions of the bones taken from paperwork, discovered only two weeks ago, ..."). That is unless you guys found some more measurements across the pond on your recent visit. The last paragraph said, "Other Earhart experts...cautioned that Gillespie has claimed other discoveries...only to have their authenticity questioned." I'll scan the article and forward it for your clipping file. The SF Chronicle picked it up from the LA Times. blue skies, -jerry *************** Thanks Jerry P ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:54:09 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Game I picked up the Abacus "Around the World" Earhart recreation, and it's a pretty interesting simulation. It traces the original trip, uses an accurately performing L-10-E simulation, and (within the limits of the computer) is pretty good. I must admit that I skipped ahead to the Howland leg, and it was fun to find the Itasca sitting in the water off the end of the runway. This will be interesting for some, boring for others (it's not a combat simulation!). What it won't do is solve the mystery, but what it might do for some (like me) is point up how difficult a task it must have been to actually fly the legs of the flight with the primitive (by our standards) navigational resources they had available. Try flying from Lae to Howland with just the compass (of course the simulation doesn't give you the ability to do celestial navigation, but you can sort of fake it by popping in and out of "slew" mode in the simulator, to check your position in Lat & Long). For me, it was worth it. Love to mother, jon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:02:42 EST From: Paul Chattey Subject: Research and reporting Folks, I'm a little slow sometimes but I get there. Remember Ric's report from Eng-land, as it sounds to my American ears when pronounced by English friends? The one we all waited for with such anticipation? It more than lived up to my expectations and this is without taking into account jet lag, English food and warm beer, and researcher's overload. Moreover, I have it "on the highest authority" that the report was written somewhere above the north Atlantic--which meant we all got to read it weeks sooner than if I'd been there. Written. Written on a laptop, the TIGHAR laptop. The laptop that is still not paid for. I don't care how the grammar on that last sentence is supposed to work, we all know what we need to do. These few short weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas are the most appropriate time to return the favor. Nail my VISA for $50, it ain't much but it all helps. Paul ****************** Paul, you are a gentleman and a scholar. And American Express is getting restless..... Thank you very much. Pat (PS, aren't you glad I took your credit card number off your post?) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:04:01 EST From: Tom Ruprecht Subject: ATC So, can anybody recall if the editor of "Air Classics" has ever been interviewed on All Things Considered? Good interview, Ric. Rupe ************** I don't think so, but I'm no authority.... Thanks, Rupe, the guy did a nice job and even bought us lunch. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:08:46 EST From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: sactodave, fraud, and conspiracies > Yes, we run into this as well. We *must* have some ulterior motive, why would > anyone waste their time with this otherwise? I suppose I'm strange, but this is the one point I've never questioned. Why do people collect stamps? Build ship models? Go to see the battle fields at Concord? Visit historic ships? Heck, volunteer to do maintenance on these historic ships? Because there's something in us that wants to know, that want's to do things because they strike our interest, and cultivating interest is the root of what makes us human. If it weren't for simple curiosity we'd still be sending messages by banging rocks together... if that. Some people direct that curiosity into inventing new things, some into exploring old questions. I see it as just aspects of the same thing that makes us as a species what we are. - Bill #2229 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:49:42 EST From: Ted Whitmore Subject: Sand Pile Dave Sactodave undoubtedly considers himself an instant expert: one who has put forth an idea that no one can disprove - - - yet. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:51:46 EST From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Army records center Forest wrote: >Can any of you provide an address for the US Army records center that may >know the addresses of retired Army officers? Am trying to contact another >helicopter pilot who was at Canton when Bruce found the engine. Hoping the >pilot can give us more air crew names and information . The only info we >have on the pilot is his rank/name, Major Harold Martin, and that he was >stationed at Fort Rucker (Alabama, I think) before coming to Canton. Martin >is also in one of the slides Bruce is reviewing. There is a military locator online, but I can't remember the web site now. I think if you go into a search engine such as Alta Vista and search for "military personnel" or somesuch it might pop up. Tom #2179 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:56:53 EST From: Tom Robison Subject: News reports Pat wrote: >This last big bit of publicity is quite encouraging. Please check your local >papers, we like to have clips. Please include the name of the paper, city, >date if you send us something. This is ammo for helping get sponsors, so it's >important to show as much stuff as we have. The following was on the CNN web news this morning: ********** [my comments in brackets] **************** Report: Bones found on island may belong to Amelia Earhart LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Bones found on a Polynesian [it's actually Micronesian, but what the heck...] island may offer some insight into the mysterious disappearance of aviator Amelia Earhart, a researcher told the Los Angeles Times. The bones were found on Nikumaroro Island in the republic of Kiribati in 1940 by British soldiers [not soldiers, of course, but the British Cadet Colonial Officer]. They were sent to British headquarters in Tarawa, where a physician concluded they belonged to a man. Richard Gillespie, director of the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery, a nonprofit organization that has searched for evidence of Earhart's fate for 10 years, recently found records of the examination in Tarawa and England. Two forensic anthropologists who studied the records said precise dimensions of the bones taken from the paperwork indicate the skeleton was that of a white female of northern European extraction, about 5 feet 7 inches tall. "We have probably the most dramatic archival and scientific evidence in 61 years to indicate that we may soon know what happened to Amelia Earhart," Gillespie told the Times in an interview published Wednesday. Earhart vanished in 1937 while attempting to become the first woman to fly around the world. Most authorities believe she and her navigator lost their bearings, ran out of fuel and crashed into the Pacific while flying between Asia and Hawaii, but some think the two were captured by the Japanese as spies. Some experts were wary of Gillespie's findings, which he plans to present Friday at a meeting of the American Anthropological Association in Philadelphia. "I have always been skeptical about claims such as this," said Thomas Crouch of the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum in Washington. "When people ask me what I am looking for, I say it is fair to look for a smoking gun, something that could only have come from them Earhart and her navigator, Fred Noonan," he said. The new information doesn't qualify unless the bones are found, he said. Gillespie has presented other discoveries from Nikumaroro, about 1,700 miles southwest of Hawaii, only to have their authenticity questioned. Experts concluded that a piece of aluminum purportedly from Earhart's Lockheed A-10E Electra and a rubber heel supposedly from her shoe were not linked to the aviator. [Of course, they don't say what experts, or what conclusions they drew.... the "experts" were Elgen Long and some of the Japanese-man-take-lady- flyer-Saipan crew...] Tom Robison *************** Oh well, it could be worse. Cynically yours, Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:01:39 EST From: Jack Snee Subject: Re: a technical analysis of the Western Electric I sure wish I had a copy of the wreck photo your looking at. I can't see half the things people are seeing and I'm using bi-focals hi hi. I have pictures of what the Command Set looked like in a B-17. Your description is almost correct however the tuning chart on the transmitter is on the top RIGHT side not left. Are you testing us Mike to see if we are paying attention? 73, Dog six king Jack, 2157 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:59:36 EST From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: The Lae Film Here's a quick thought: for any film footage of Amelia et al., if there are any good facial shots during conversations, perhaps a teacher of the deaf, who reads lips well, can make out at least some parts of what people are saying during the silent filming. Just an idea! Thanks for your indulgence! Gene Dangelo 2211 **************** It's a thought. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:58:44 EST From: Tom Robison Subject: Time Travel? the latest research bulletin on the web page is dated 12/19/98. I accept the fact that you folks are way ahead of me, but 17 days? **************** well, it's like this. So I put the wrong date on it. Didn't notice until about two weeks ago. But by then, the new web site was up, my old software wouldn't cope, and I was attempting to get the new software up and running today (what a joke)... I'll fix it tomorrow, ok? Pat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:00:24 EST From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: a technical analysis of the Western Electric If you think it may be an ARC-5 transmitter of the T-19 variety, let me know, because I OWN one, and can give you EXACT measurements! Where on the wreck photo is this item located? I have it stored in my computer scanner files and can check it out. Dr. Gene Dangelo, N3XKS Tighar #2211 :) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:03:22 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Re: CNN article about bones Excerpt from CNN article: Experts concluded that a piece of aluminum purportedly from Earhart's Lockheed A-10E Electra and a rubber heel supposedly from her shoe were not linked to the aviator. Who concluded this? Sounds like rubbish to me. ************* Me too, Mike. P ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:47:24 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: TODAY Show not Late this afternoon, the TODAY Show decided not to have me on the show after all. No reason officially given but the scuttlebutt is that they felt that they would look second rate if they covered the story after so many other media had already done it. Such are the ways of television networks. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 23:02:06 EST From: C Spear Subject: GMA review Just observed Ric on today's GMA segment about the search for AE. His reference to the scientific method, absolutely rational approach to the evidence, and openness to review is why I will renew my TIGHAR membership for another year! And, oh yeah, that trace of humility too. Excellent presentation and credibility, Ric! (Oh, I still think AE needed larger shoes for the heavy socks to keep her feet warm at altitude [not unlike my wife]... if there has to be a reason for the larger shoe size) ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks. I try to hold it down to just a trace of humility. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 06:15:21 EST From: Ron Dawson Subject: Re: The Lae Film Regarding lipreading on the film. As a speech pathologist working with hard of hearing kids, I can safely say the best lipreader can only get about 60% if you are in the room with the individual and know the Context of the conversation. On a bad film at a distance, with no context, good luck! Smooth Sailing Ron Dawson 2126 ************************************************************** From Ric Just continues to amaze me the expertise we have on this forum. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 06:58:01 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Sextant boxes revisited (long) Of all the things that have turned up on Nikumaroro, the sextant box found in 1940 is one of the most likely to definitely place Fred Noonan on the island. That box is unique in that it bears stencilled identifying numbers. I persist in the belief that those numbers were put on that box by PAA. There are probably other things around that were once the property of PAA and with similar numbers. We just haven't come across them. The question of whether or not PAA would have had a lot of old marine sextants has been discussed here at some length. I believe it is very possible that they DID have quite a few marine sextants as well as bubble sextants and that both were typically carried on flights during the mid 1930s. This belief is supported by at least two documents written by Fred Noonan himself. In a document titled, "Making the Landfall," dated, October 3, 1935 (note 1), Fred wrote, in part: "Due to the spacious chart room aboard the 'Clipper' the navigation equipment need not be so severely limited as in smaller planes, hence the list of navigational instruments reads like that of a surface craft. It shows two bubble octants, a MARINER'S SEXTANT, aircraft chronometer... etc., etc." Clearly a mariner's sextant was standard equipment on the "Clippers" on Pacific flights in 1935. In a letter to P. V. H. Weems (Note 2), discussing an early PAA "Clipper" flight to Hawaii, Fred wrote, in part: "Due to the spacious chart room and large chart table aboard the Clipper, the navigation equipment need not be so severely limited as in smaller planes, hence the choice of equipment may be governed entirely by the individual's personal preference or the Company's desires in the matter. To date the Company has not decided upon any standard equipment, and therefore I chose the equipment used on the subject flight." And... "... several factors influenced the selection. Preeminent among them was the fact that most of the instruments had been used extensively by the writer and had proven satisfactory. ... and I suspect that plain prejudice, which actuates so many of us, carried some weight." One of the instruments that Fred had used extensively was the marine sextant. And this was true of the PAA navigators, in general. They had been seafaring navigators and they knew and trusted the marine sextant. The bubble octants were new to them and difficult to use. Finally... "Two sextants were carried -- a Pioneer bubble octant and a MARINER'S SEXTANT. The former was used for all sights; the latter carried as a 'preventer.'" Again, whatever is implied by the term "preventer," the mariner's sextant was clearly standard equipment on the Pacific "Clipper" flights. I'm told that, as used here, "preventer" is a nautical term originating in french. Prae = pre and venire (verb) = to come. Praevenire = precede, anticipate. Dictionaries say things like, "One that forestalls or anticipates another." And, "To satisfy in advance... To be in readiness. I suspect some of those former marine navigators may have used the sextant for a preliminary sight then, knowing about what the angle should be, used the bubble octant for a final sight. And, of course, the sextant could be regarded as a backup in the event of real problems with the octants. Note 1. "Making the Landfall -- Trans Pacific Air Navigation," October 3, 1935, by F. J. Noonan, Navigator, "Pan American Clipper." This is from the "Research Library," Pan American Airways, and appears to be a draft copy. There is a marginal note to omit one paragraph in the early part of the paper. Note 2. Letter from Fred Noonan published in "Air Navigation," 2nd edition, 1938, by P. V. H. Weems, McGraw-Hill. The date of the letter is not stated. It was probably about 1935. Much of the wording is identical to that in "Making the Landfall" It didn't appear in any printing of the 1st ed. of "Air Navigation." *** I believe a concerted effort to connect the numbers on those two sextant boxes to PAA is justified... If we can figure out how to go about it! Any ideas? Comments? Anyone? ************************************************************ From Ric The only question I would raise is the notion that PAA had a whole bunch of old nautical navigators running around. From what I've seen (and Randy, your impressions would be welcome here), Fred was about it. Only the Clipper flights carried dedicated navigators and Fred was the guy on original survey crew in 1935. Sounds to me like Trippe knew he'd need navigators for the new Pacific Division. He hired Noonan to develop the techniques and teach them to new hires. The bit about carrying a nautical sextant was, I think, more likely a personal preference of Fred's which may have been copied by his proteges. There is a curious line in a TIME magazine article which came out following the failed search. In it, Noonan is described as being dismayed when he first signed on for the first attempt by Manning's reliance upon an old fashioned nautical sextant. Fred made arrangements to borrow a modern bubble octant from the Navy. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:03:51 EST From: Marty Joy Subject: Birthdays HAPPY BIRTHDAY RIC! Mine is December the 7th ( this is not a drill) Marty 724C ************************************************************* From Ric Thanks Marty. But you come first. Happy Birthday! I understand that mine (the 8th) is the Feast of the Immaculate Conception but you'll have to ask Mom about that. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:08:21 EST From: Suzanne Subject: L.A. Times The same LA Times article to which Jerry refers was also picked up by the San Jose Mercury News on December 2! LTM Suzanne #2184 ************************************************************* From Ric That L.A. Times piece went all over the world. The biggest error in it (as has been pointed out) is that the reporter somehow got the idea that the bones were found by "soldiers" and that the records are "military." I've just got to learn to speak more clearly. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:15:25 EST From: Ann Hinrichs Subject: Press coverage The Cincinnati Enquirer also carried the Tighar article (12/2/98 edition).I'll send a copy for your files. LTM Ann #2101 ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Ann. Today at noontime we're doing a press conference in Philadelphia at the annual meeting of the American Anthropological Association. Kar Burns (our forensic anthroplogist) and I will be offering ourselves up for sacrifice. I really have no idea what kind of turnout we'll get. The story has certainly had a lot of "play" over the past few days. We'll see how it goes. (Film at 11) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:23:05 EST From: Leah Ouzinian Subject: Re: TODAY Show not I am surprised that the TODAY Show won't have you on their show. Every time I turn on the news channel there's second-rate coverage of Clinton (and so on)... I will be looking forward to ANY coverage I can find about your Earhart findings at the American Anthropological Association. Sincerely, Leah Ouzinian (a newbie to the Earhart Forum) *************************************************************** From Ric After the word got out that I wouldn't be on the show, an ugly mob with torches and pitchforks surrounded the NBC studios at Rockefeller Center chanting "TIGHAR, TIGHAR, TIGHAR." At the mayor's request I went over there and, with the aid of a bull horn. finally got them to disperse. And then I woke up. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:09:21 EST From: Dave Kelly Subject: Re: TODAY Show not They probably did feel that way Ric. But, if you and TIGHAR do find the golden nugget of evidence on your next expedition (I doubt it, but...) you will have the satisfaction of putting them on hold as the flood of network offers for appearances (and my apology) comes your way. Your group needs all the publicity they can get! Sorry about the disappointment. ************************************************************** From Ric This would have been my fifth appearance on the TODAY Show, so it's not exactly a crushing disappointment. We got page one ("above the fold") in the L.A. Times and most major U.S. papers carried the story as did most British papers. The Associated Press and Reuters have both put out wire stories. We had a really nice in-depth piece on National Public Radio's All Things Considered in a top time slot (5:37 p.m.). I was on ABC's Good Morning America and CBS Up To The Minute. I did dozens of radio interviews with stations all over the U.S., the BBC, Canadian Broadcasting, and various other places such as South Africa, Austria and Colombia (Amelia's popularity is really amazing). Whether the story continues to generate press or not largely depends upon the media's ability to generate some kind of controversy to keep the public interested. So far they're having trouble. Forensic anthropologists seem to be generally in agreement with the findings of Burns and Jantz, and no one can dispute the fact that the British files exist. We haven't made any claims that this new evidence proves anything except that further investigation is warranted. It's pretty hard to generate controversy around that. When we first decided to do a press conference at the American Anthropological Association meeting in Philadephia we thought that, if we were lucky, we might get some local TV coverage picked up by a network. I'm astounded by the response we have actually gotten. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 07:56:49 EST From: Tom Van Hare Subject: Re: Army records center3 Ric wrote: > Can any of you provide an address for the US Army records center that may > know the addresses of retired Army officers? Am trying to contact another > helicopter pilot who was at Canton when Bruce found the engine. Hoping the > pilot can give us more air crew names and information . The only info we > have on the pilot is his rank/name, Major Harold Martin, and that he was > stationed at Fort Rucker (Alabama, I think) before coming to Canton. Martin > is also in one of the slides Bruce is reviewing. Historic Wings has a highly experienced research arm in Washington, DC, including permanent presence inside the Pentagon with access to all historical records, though we are primarily focused on Air Force and Air Corps records. Would you like us to look into this for you? Thomas Van Hare Historic Wings **************************************************************** From Ric That inquiry was actually put up by Forest Blair (TIGHAR #2149), the former CO on Canton. He and Bruce Yoho (TIGHAR #2036E) -who found the engine in the first place - are chasing the helicopter pilots. I'm sure that they'll appreciate any help you can provide. Feel free to contact them directly. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:09:10 EST From: John Rayfield Subject: Old Radios I've got an old BC-696A sitting here on my desk. I always had the idea that this was the same as what was referred to as an ARC-5. Is that correct? This BC-696A was made by Western Electric, and covers 3 to 4 Mhz. John Rayfield, Jr. WB0NZM Springfield, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:32:22 EST From: Bruce Yoho Subject: TV You did a fine job on the Good Morning America show. It is amazing what the other person stated. Did not seem to have any evidence to back up his claims. LTM Bruce ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:57:14 EST From: Bill Zorn Subject: Re: News reports Albuquerque journal Dec 3 1998 final edition (print) earhart story w/ byline "Thomas h. maugh II Los angles times" location, front page, above the fold, below the banner (a most excellent position) same basic text as I have seen online (CNN version) plus a little more. Contiues on page A2, pictures of AE on both pages. Checked the journals website, but it wasn't up (yet)? Will try to find time to scan into my computer at work tomorrow. Have a file format preference, or do you prefer snail mail? Could also scan and try some OCR to turn it into a text file. Well, done. The pail is level. Love to mother william h. zorn ************************************************************* From Ric Thanks Bill. No real need to send an actual or electronic clipping. We have the content of Maugh's piece. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 08:32:24 EST From: Tom Cook Subject: GMA Ric : Happy Birthday in advance, if you're not too old to have another Birthday! My son called last night and said that the Dr. told our daughter-in-law that if she had not started in labor by Monday that he would start her, so I could get, a grandson on the 7th or 8th if not sooner! I saw you on GMA yesterday, boy that Crouch guy is really negative! The Evansville Press ran an AP article datelined Los Angeles Dec.2, stating that the bones were found on a "Polynesian island" by" British soldiers " in 1940 on Niikumaroro island in the republic of Kiribati (no mention of Gardner as it was known then) Mr Crouch made his usual comment about needing to see a "smoking gun" "The new information doesn't qualify unless the bones are found, he said" Final paragraph: "Gillespie has presented other discoveries from Nikumaroro, about 1700 miles southwest of Hawaii, only to have their authenticity questioned, Experts concluded that a piece of Aluminum purportedly from Earhart's plane and a rubber heel supposedly from her shoe were not linked to the aviator" They sure can screwup the facts and slant their articles, can't they ! They did mention that two forensic anthropologists have concluded that the bones were of a 5'7''white female, with no explaination of how else such a person's bones would turn up on Gardner island in 1940. "Some experts were wary of Gillespie's findings, which he is to present Friday to the American Anthropological Association in Philadelphia." BTW Mr. Crouch has some pictures at the Smithsonian that I took of Army Aircraft , I have seen a book (published in England) with my pictures credited "Smithsonian Institute" LOL in Phillie today!! TC 2127 ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Tom. No. I'm not in denial about birthdays. I'm turning 51 and I still have the mind of a 12 year-old. Say hi to your new grandson for me. Yes, the media get it wrong. It's one of the few things we can all rely on these days. My old buddy Tom Crouch negative? You think so? I'm sure that he would prefer to be called "cautiously skeptical." Rumor has it that he did a spot for CNN yesterday that was considerably less negative. It may just be that he can feel the way the wind is blowing and thinks it might be time to start shifting his sails. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 08:34:28 EST From: Mike Everette Subject: Aircraft Radio Corporation CQ CQ CQ... Does anyone out there have information on Aircraft Radio Corporation? The company dated from the 1920s, and was located in Boonton, NJ until it was absorbed by Cessna Aircraft Company in the 1970s. I am looking for the company's historical records from the early-to-mid 1930s to about 1940 or so. Anyone out there with Cessna, who could make some inquiries? Could these records still exist? Were they donated to some library, school, university, etc.? Let's hope they were not destroyed....! 73 GM AR Mike E. the Radio Historian #2194 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 08:45:21 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Sextant boxes revisited Ric - while it is probably a very long shot, it might be possible to process the sextant box for fingerprints, using modern development techniques, and depending on all the obvious factors (weathering, how many people have handled it, etc) it might be possible to develop fingerprints - particularly from inside. And IF (big if there) any prints are developed, it might be possible to compare them with Fred Noonan's fingerprints. If he wasn't fingerprinted formally, it might be possible to develop his prints from known papers, etc. A positive match would be a pretty strong piece of physical evidence... ltm jon ************************************************************** From Ric We don't have the sextant box that was found on the island in 1940, so it's pretty hard to check for fingerprints. The sextant box we have, which seems to be similar to the description of the one found on the island, is in the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola and we know that it belonged to Fred (so fingerprinting is pretty pointless). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:02:23 EST From: Bill Moffet Subject: Army records center For what it may be worth, if Maj. Martin was a pilot, he may well have been USAF, not Army. Does Bruce have the name/number of his unit? The US Air Force Historical Records Center, Maxwell AFBase, AL 36112-6678, phone (205)293-5723, has unit histories (not service records of individuals). It's possible that the missions/flights flown by the helo unit at Canton in '71 are listed. - Maybe Maj. M. is now retired and is a member of the Reserve Officers Ass'n--I don't have its address but your local library probably will. The Army-Navy Journal may still be in existence. It is/was a weekly (I think) newspaper that prints all sorts of info on active and retired officers--births, marriages, deaths, retirements, etc. Don't know where it's located, maybe Wash., DC. Check your library. Military service records are archived at National Personnel Records Center, 9700 Page Blvd., St. Louis, MO 63132 but it's unlikely they'll release information on anyone who's still living. I don't know if any of these sources have Web sites. Oh, one other 'long shot': Some of the 'net search engines will give free access to US white pages, 'phone directories. For a name like Harold Martin, this is liable to produce a huge list. Happy hunting! LTM Bill Moffet #2156 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:21:49 EST From: Tom Robison Subject: Reuter's report 12/4/98 Researchers To Present New Amelia Earhart Claim December 4, 1998 9:28 AM EST By David Morgan PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - Anthropologists were to hear new evidence Friday suggesting that legendary American aviator Amelia Earhart died on Nikumaroro Island after her plane disappeared over the Pacific Ocean on July 2, 1937. Earhart, in 1928 the first woman to cross the Atlantic by plane, was trying to become the first woman to fly around the world when she and her navigator, Fred Noonan, disappeared -- starting a mystery that has lasted more than 60 years. Researcher Richard Gillespie said the new evidence mainly consists of a 57-year-old medical report on a dozen bones and a skull that were found on the island in the Polynesian Republic of Kiribati by British soldiers in 1940 and later lost to investigators. The doctor who first examined the bones said they belonged to a man. But Gillespie and his colleagues, who used modern techniques to reexamined the original findings, suggest the bones actually come from a woman of North European extraction who stood five feet seven inches tall. And that, the researchers say, supports the theory which claims Earhart landed her Lockheed A-10E Electra on Nikumaroro, once known as Gardner Island, and died there. The new findings were to be presented at the annual meeting of the American Anthropological Association in Philadelphia. "These are probably the best clues we've had in 61 years," Gillespie, director of the nonprofit organization known as The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery (TIGHAR), told Reuters. "The case is not solved, certainly, but we have higher hopes than we've ever had. Everything about it seems to be consistent with Earhart." But Gillespie's claims only seem to have stirred skepticism among other Earhart experts. During four trips to the uninhabited island, Gillespie has collected a piece of aluminum said to be from Earhart's plane and a rubber heel alleged to be from her shoes. Neither has provided a convincing link to the long-lost aviator, however. "If they can find these little things, where are the big things? Where re the engines? They weighed 800 pounds (362 kg)apiece. The propellers weighed 200 pounds (90 kg) apiece," said retired U.S. Air Force Col. Rollin Reineck of Kailua, Hawaii, a member of the Amelia Earhart Society. "Why can't they find them? Because they were never there, that's why," he added. Earhart and navigator Noonan were on their way from New Guinea to Hawaii when they failed to locate tiny Howland Island for a planned fueling stop. The last radio report said they were almost out of fuel. Most experts believe the plane crashed into the Pacific after running out of fuel. But theories abound. One says Earhart was captured by the Japanese, another that she ditched her plane in a deliberate attempt to escape her public life and become an ocean-bound recluse. A third maintains she assumed a new identity and lived happily ever after, in New Jersey. Critics of Gillespie's theory believe the bones most likely belong to one of several European castaways who died on Nikumaroro about a decade before Earhart's flight. "There's no reason to believe these bones were Amelia's. This is not a smoking gun," said Thomas Crouch, a senior curator at the Smithsonian Institution's National Air and Space Museum in Washington. "And after all these years, after all these blind leads -- the Japanese, etc, -- it's fair for people to expect a smoking gun, something directly connected to Amelia Earhart." Gillespie says the next challenge will be to find actual bones onNikumaroro that can be submitted to DNA analysis. "This is an important new clue that we hope, frankly, will shake loose the money to help us get back out there. Everything we do has to be raised from charitable contributions and the general public," he said. *************************************************************** From Ric It's always a bit disappointing to see how consistently the media can screw up the facts, but what is most interesting about this piece is what is not there. In trying to find the "balance" that journalists are always looking for, do you suppose that Reuters did not think to contact leading forensic anthropologists in an attempt to find dissenters? I know for a fact that Good Morning America did, and they couldn't find anybody who disagreed with Burns and Jantz (the scientists who re-evaluated the bone measurements for us). If I were a senior official at the Smithsonian I'd start to get a little nervous if the only person the media could find to support my opinion was Rolly Reineck. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:32:51 EST From: Jerry Ellis Subject: Re: Old Radios I think I have an old BC-453, the Canadian version if I remember correctly. Have someone contact me if it is important. You should have recieved my 50 bucks by now, there are so many opportunities to donate, I was confused and didn't know what to ask for; a mouse pad, membership dues, matching funds, the laptop contribution, special membership deal,.... Oh well, I trust you'll make good use of the dough. *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Jerry. The old radios are Mike Everette's department. He'll be in touch if he needs info. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:35:00 EST From: Mike Everette Subject: Re: Old Radios John Rayfield wrote: > I've got an old BC-696A sitting here on my desk. I always had the idea that > this was the same as what was referred to as an ARC-5. Is that correct? > This BC-696A was made by Western Electric, and covers 3 to 4 Mhz. Yes, you are basically correct. The BC-696A is part of the SCR-274N Radio Set. This equipment is the Signal Corps version of the Navy ATA/ARA equipment... the "N" in SCR-274N stands for "Navy." The AN/ARC-5 is a later, improved version of the ATA/ARA. The earlier sets, and the 274Ns, used screen-grid modulation on AM phone. The ARC-5s were plate-modulated, and there are some minor circuit changes in the transmitters themselves. The ATAs and 274Ns use series plate-voltage feed, and the ARC-5s use parallel feed. The ARA and 274N receivers have no AVC circuit; the ARC-5s do. There are some minor mechanical differences as well, but it it basically the same radio. 73 Mike E. #2194 (aka WA4DLF) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:03:24 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Sextant boxes revisited Re: the source material referenced by Vern regarding Noonan sextant use. Both of the quotes which Vern references and which came from separate sources which he had, I believe, were derived from the same original source. On May 11, 1935, Fred Noonan wrote a letter to Weems which contained both quotes exactly. This letter looks like it predates both the sources quoted. He wrote it after having just returned from a Clipper trial run to Honolulu. This was the first flight to Hawaii after they brought the Clipper to San Francisco (based in Alameda actually) from Florida the previous March. The Hawaii flight was followed by increasingly longer flights to Midway in June and then another to Wake in August as they tested the route to Manila. The May letter was published in Popular Aviation three years later in May of 1938. Re the bubble octant for the flight, Butler (East To The Dawn) quotes a cable AE sent to Washington, "Amelia Earhart urgently requests air station loan Navy octant for projected trans Atlantic flight and shipment air express to Oakland immediately." Butler says clearance was granted March 16 by the secretary of the navy. The reference given for this info is Schlesinger Library, Radcliffe College. The clearance was just three days after Noonan was unexpectedly announced as a flight participant. blue skies, -jerry ************************************************************* From Ric And here's an excerpt from a TIME magazine article published July 19, 1937 (the search was called off on the 18th). "Several facts made it clear that much more than simple bad luck was involved. Before the hop-off, when capable Navigator Noonan inspected what he supposed was an ultra-modern "flying laboratory," he was dismayed to find that there was nothing with which to take celestial bearings except an ordinary ship sextant. He remedied that by borrowing a modern bubble octant designed especially for airplane navigation....." The bubble octant was actually borrowed in Harry Manning's name because he was an officer in the Navy reserve. On March 20, 1937, after the wreck in Hawaii, Fred gave Harry a handwritten receipt for "Pioneer Bubble octant #12-36 to be returned to U.S. Navy, North Island, San Diego, upon completion of Amelia Earhart flight." The original note is in Manning's papers at the Merchant Marine Museum in King's Point, N.Y. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:24:42 EST From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Fingerprints Of course, if we don't have any of Fred's prints on record, maybe we need to check the box in Pensacola for prints first, to see if we pick up anything that might match anything else later! (Remember type I & type II errors!) I understand that there is the outside possibility that, say, the same assembler made both boxes and deposited prints on them, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, eh? Have a good week, and Happy Birthday to Ric! Gene Dangelo 2211 :) **************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Gene. I'm not a forensics expert so I don't know how tough it would be to lift Fred's 60-some year old fingerprints from a box that has been handled by at least dozens of people since then - especially since we don't know what Fred's prints were in the first place. My layman's guess is that we're talking the impossible. Any fingerprint experts out there? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:36:28 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Special Newbie Welcome From Ric Gillespie Executive Director TIGHAR This latest media feeding frenzy has, to date, brought roughly seventy new subscribers to the Earhart Search Forum. That's an increase of roughly 17% within a few days. I'd like to extend a personal welcome to all of our new friends. Not all of you will stick around. Some will find the sheer volume of traffic to be too much. Others will find many of our discussions too technical for their taste. Still others may simply disagree with us. That's okay. You won't hurt our feelings. If you have trouble signing off using the instructions in the standard welcome message, just let me know and I can usually sign you off from here. Of course, we hope that you'll become an avid reader and active participant in our research. Please don't be shy about contributing your thoughts, ideas and opinions. That's what this forum is all about. But please do take the time to familiarize yourself with the facts of the case as presented on the TIGHAR website (www.tighar.org). As you know, you're tuning in to a "program already in progress" and at first you're going to feel pretty lost, but you'll soon come up to speed. Here are a couple of helpful notes: - You'll notice that many people who post messages to the forum have a number after their name. This is, in most cases, not an indication that they are serving time in a penal institution. It is a TIGHAR member number. These are the people who have put their money where their mouth is. We consider them to be the most highly-evolved life forms on the planet and we cordially invite you to join them. - You'll also notice the frequent use of the closing phrase "Love to Mother" (often abbreviated to LTM). This is a reference to some ridiculous speculation that made the rounds a few years ago about how a telegram delivered to Earhart's husband George Putnam in 1945 form a Chinese internment camp was proof that Earhart had been "captured by the Japanese." The unsigned, unclassified wire said merely, "Camp liberated. Volumes to tell. Love to mother." We use the closing to remind ourselves to always try to remain objective in our evaluation of evidence. We even have Love to Mother t-shirts and refrigerator magnets. Yes, we're a little strange, but we have a lot of fun and we do good work. Welcome to the forum! Love to Mother, Ric Ric Gillespie TIGHAR ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:36:34 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: TIGHAR Tracks ready The new issue of TIGHAR Tracks is just in from the printer and will be mailed out to all TIGHAR members on Wednesday/Thursday of this week. Our cover this issue features none other than Gerald "Irish" Gallagher, the British colonial official who just may turn out to be the man who found Amelia. The magazine includes the full paper prepared by Dr. Karen Burns, Dr. Richard Jantz, Dr. Tom King, and yours truly, entitled "Amelia Earhart's Bones and Shoes? - Current Anthroplogical Perspectives on an Historical Mystery." You'll also find an article on "The Crash At Sydney Island" and a review of the National Park Service's new "Guidelines for Evaluating and Documenting Historic aviation Properties" and much more. There's also a really cool pull-out with a detailed and annotated three-view of NR16020 (complete with correctly-orange leading edges). Stick it up on the 'fridge with your "Love To Mother - Check Your E-Mail" magnet. Of course, if you're not yet a TIGHAR member you'll miss out on all that so you might want to hurry up and join. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:06:42 EST From: Suzanne Subject: Re: GMA Just had the chance to watch your GMA appearance which I taped. Splendid job. Your answers were precise, well thought out and you used the limited time allowed to it's fullest, as each word you used conveyed a clear message. Have you thought about media consulting? On second thought, we'd hate to loose you. Congratulations, Suzanne #2184 *************************************************************** From Ric (blush) I am but the servant of the project. Media consulting? That's easy. here are only three rules: - Tell the truth as briefly and clearly as possible. - Never confuse marketing with science. - Remember that all television is entertainment. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:11:03 EST From: K L Wallis Subject: Re: Fingerprints I have a lot of experience over the years working with latent prints. The chance of lifting 60-year old latent prints is extremely remote. I'd strongly recommend that you enlist the services of a professional laboratory with some of the new laser equipment. It won't alter the box as powders, chemicals, or cyanoacrylate will, and will show what's there. Of course, the best lab to look at this would be the FBI lab, if you can get them to process it for you. They might be interested because of the potential historic significance. *********************************************************** From Ric I still don't understand how anyone could tell which fingerprints were Fred's. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:14:30 EST From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Re: Sextant boxes revisited Is it possible to think we have two(2) sextants borrowed for the flight. Could it be the Box numbers are Navy inventory numbers? Would there be a way to locate the Navy paper work on these loans to civilians. I know today you have to sign everything including your mother away to get even a bolt out of the military. LTM Bruce **************************************************************** From Ric Good thought, but Navy sextants had little brass plaques on the boxes which had the model number, serial number, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:16:29 EST From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Re: Special Newbie Welcome Yes, we are different, just ask Dr. Tom King what he calls a shovel. LTM Bruce *************************************************************** From Ric (Oh good Lord. Here we go again.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:21:14 EST From: JB9700 Subject: Re: TIGHAR Tracks ready I'm not familiar with the membership and/or subscription fee(s). Please respond with that info. Also, would I be able to purchase just the latest issue of TIGHAR TRACKS? Sounds extremely interesting and would add to my girl scout's troop's exposure to Ms. Earhart's incredible life and speculation of what may have happened on that fateful last flight. I read, on occasion, the riveting notes and mail you send to each other. Facinating. Sounds like a group of thoughtful and talented technicians in these discussions. Refreshing! Sometimes I do not have a clue what is being said, but it is still very interesting. I am not a technical person in any capacity with this subject but I do have a curiosity about Ms. Earhart and I pass this curiosity (or rather TRY to) onto my troop. Looking forward to your response. *************************************************************** From Ric Non-members can purchase current and back issues of TIGHAR Tracks for $10. Just send a check payable to TIGHAR to: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 Include a note telling us which issue you want. The current issue is Vol. 14, No. 2. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:23:37 EST From: Jim Tierney Subject: Re: TIGHAR Tracks ready HOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jim Tierney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:32:27 EST From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Your Comments Requested One point that need to be cleared up in my mind at least is the lack of comments or reference to AIRCRAFT WRECKAGE in Gallagher's messages to his superiors. If Gallagher speculated that the bones that were found might be those of AE it would seem like he would also make some reference in his messages to the old aircraft wreck. Could it be that the aircraft wreckage was not discovered until after 1940 when the bones were located? I would appreciate your comments on this. Perhaps I just missed the time line in my reading of TIGHAR TRACKS and the web pages. Dick Pingrey 908C ************************************************************* From Ric Let's be very clear that the bones (while once anecdotal) are now fact, whereas the aircraft wreck on the island is still anecdotal. Had Gallagher known about an airplane wreck it certainly seems like he would have mentioned it. It may be significant that we did not hear anything about the wreck ourselves until we started to talking to people who had lived there in the 50s and early 60s. The old-timers, who knew about the bone story, did not know about the airplane wreck story. It does, therefore, seem that the discovery of airplane wreckage (if it really happened) came sometime after the death of Gallagher and the outbreak of the Pacific war and the island's subsequent isolation. LTM, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:02:38 EST From: Bob Sherman Subject: Re: Aircraft Radio Corporation I believe ARC had an affiliation with Bell Labs for radio products, i.e. they may have built (or sold) the lab's designs (usually done by Western Elec.) but some of their stuff was not handled by W.E. If so, a letter to Lucent ... (I no longer have their addresss) should get you some details.... 73's RC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:12:39 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Re: Fingerprints As a matter of fact, we do have Fred's left thumb print. It's in his maritime records from the National Archives. Ric, you should have a copy. Now if we could only get his bones and find a female relative for Dna testing.... blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric You're right! I had forgotten about that. There is another possible solution to the Noonan DNA problem. Dig up his mother. Of course, we wouldn't do that unless we had bones that we had reason to suspect were Fred's, and we'd have to know where she's buried, but maybe we should go ahead and at least locate the grave. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:17:17 EST From: Monty Bar Subject: Ever closer You all do good work, Looks like step by step you are getting closer. I'm anxious to see if any of the material you brought back from England might give a clue to what happened to the bones and other items found by Gallagher. Good luck LTM Monty #2224 *************************************************************** From Ric The correction I would make to your posting is the pronoun. Anyone with a TIGHAR member number after their name is certainly entitled to say that it looks like WE are getting closer. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:35:30 EST From: Mike Rejsa Subject: Conspiracies & castaways Ric, you're doing a great job. It's starting to look like the conspiracy is on the other side... > "Why can't they find them? Because they were never there, that's why," > he added. Why isn't the press disputing this statement, or asking for his proof? > Critics of Gillespie's theory believe the bones most likely belong to one > of several European castaways who died on Nikumaroro about a decade before > Earhart's flight. Which female European castaways? On to more productive stuff: > "Several facts made it clear that much more than simple bad luck was involved. > Before the hop-off, when capable Navigator Noonan inspected what he supposed > was an ultra-modern "flying laboratory," he was dismayed to find that there > was nothing with which to take celestial bearings except an ordinary ship > sextant. He remedied that by borrowing a modern bubble octant designed > especially for airplane navigation....." Doesn't this indicate that the sextant and octant were *not* Noonans, and therefore we wouldn't expect a connection to the existing Noonan box or any Noonan-generated serial numbers? Hang in there... Mike Rejsa *************************************************************** From Ric It certainly does imply that the bubble octant used on the first attempt (and, at least at first, retained for ther second attempt) was borrowed from the Navy. I don't think that it necessarily gives us any information about what "preventer" Fred may have carried with him on the second attempt. And no. Of course there were no female European castaways. There were no known European castaways of either sex. The S. S. Norwich City went aground in 1929 with 35 men aboard. Twenty-four made it ashore and were rescued five days later. Three bodies washed up and were buried. That leaves 8 bodies unaccounted for, but for any of them to become a "castaway" would mean somehow getting ashore alive but not hooking up with the others and not getting rescued. Seems extremely unlikely. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:52:44 EST From: Dennis McGee Subject: donation 1. Sorry I couldn't join you Saturday in Philly as I had planned but several things (including a nap and some milk and cookies) came up that needed to be done. I'm looking forward to whatever report comes from the event. 2. Happy Birthday (51?? Hell, I thought they put people to sleep after 45.) 3. I checked my bank account and found an extra $50 that was just collecting interest and wanted to know to which account I should sent it -- the laptop paydown or the Niku IIII adventure? (By the way I told my girl friend the $50 is coming out of her Christmas-present fund, so the trip to McDonalds and the Wednesday afternoon bowling is out. I have just enough left to buy her a bottle of bleach and a box of Brillo pads.) LTM Dennis McGee #0149 ************************************************************** From Ric 1. It went well in Philly (at the meeting of the American Anthropological Association where we presented the forensic anthropological paper at a press conference). Good turn out. Good questions. Lots of interest. The paper is on the TIGHAR website. 2. So far no calls from Jack Kevorkian. 3. Thank you. We choose the laptop paydown. I'm not sure I want to know what you mean about the bottle of bleach and the box of Brillo pads. Reminds me of something another veteran of our early adventures in the Maine woods used to say, "Everything was going fine until the bag broke,the sheep died, and we couldn't find the rubber hose." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:31:10 EST From: Steph Thomas Subject: Re: Lae takeoff video As a tech doing support for IBM Aptiva computers, I may have some helpful suggestions here. >From Randy Jacobson > >Both work for me, but I cannot find the downloaded version anywhere on my >computer under the name amelia_3.m*. It never asked me where to dump it! Randy, try searching for something less specific. Click on Start, Find, Files and Folders. In the named field, type ame*.*, then make sure the drive selected is the c: drive (or the drive letter of the hd where you dl'd it to) and make sure "Include subfolders" is checked. > From Jon Watson > > I've had a similar problem with the download version - I got the player, > which works fine, but when I run the downloaded version, it's just a > black screen. I'm running it on a P2, 233mhz w/3d graphics,etc... For Windows95 or 98 Systems: For everyone who is having probs playing the video, I would say check your computer mfg's web site for updates to your video drivers. To find out the existing version, RIGHT click on My computer, choose properties. Up at the top of the System Properties windows, click on Device Mgr. Click on the plus sign next to the category that says "Display Adapter". Write down the info there. Check the mfg's web site. Most computer mfg updates (you may want to give them a call to verify if this is the case with your comp mfg) will not apply an upgrade if you already have the latest version. Also, you may want to check with the mfg of the particular video card or chipset that comes with your computer. Aptivas usually have an ATI chipset, and I know that users can dl the very latest updates from ATI's website way before the renovations are made to IBM's website to include the latests versions. Sorry, I do not have any info for Mac users. Just a few suggestions. Steph Thomas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:34:57 EST From: Roger Kelley Subject: Finger prints and sextant boxes. The suggestion of Gene Dangelo, # 2211, to check for finger prints on the sextant box being held the museum in Pensacola is a good one. I checked with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department , Scientific Services Bureau, Latent Print Identification section, and received the following response from their experts. "The lifting of prints from a 60 year old wooden box is possible. However, several factors will determine success. First, the box must have been sheltered from the elements and not exposed to drastic temperature and humidity changes. Second, the condition of the surface on which the prints might have been left is critical, (rough grain wood is not good, smooth like glass is best)." If prints should be lifted, we would immediately be confronted with the problem of identifying the person who left them. We must have high quality prints from all 10 fingers and 2 good palm prints of good 'ol Fred before any eliminations might be attempted. With out Fred's prints to compare, and considering the fact that possibly hundreds of people have handled the sextant box, and that the box might have been cleaned periodically, it's not likely Fred's prints could be identified on the sextant box in the museum at Pensacola. I suggest that we put this one on the back burner. Sorry. Love to Mother, Roger Kelley, # 2112 *************************************************************** From Ric I agree entirely. We have one thumb print in Fred's maritime records, but the main point is that I have no idea what good it would do us if we could find Fred's prints on the Pensacola box. We already know that it was his box. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:49:20 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: Fingerprints Ric, since you pointed out that we don't have the box in question, trying to get Fred's comparison prints is a moot point, but just for the record, they have chemically raised fingerprints from articles found inside the pyramids... ltm jon *************************************************************** From Bob Sherman It isn't often that I can contribute anything useful, so try this on for size. I tossed the fingerprint possibility to an expert of my aquaintence. He offered the following: A good finger, thumb, or palm print could remain on a good, protected surface for more years that we are concerned with. New laser procedures, with limitations, can do wonders. If we can come up with a possible print(s), he will do the rest. RC #941 ********************************************************** From Simon Ellwood Ric wrote:- > I still don't understand how anyone could tell which fingerprints were > Fred's. If it IS possible to lift prints from 60 year old samples - then surely we must have some article which we know Fred touched to lift comparison prints from. Admittedly, many other people may (will) have touched it since Fred, but if we can match two sets of prints then Fred's got to be the strongest contender - and the case could be strengthened further by looking for more of the matching prints on other items known to have been Fred's. Needs a lot of lab time though. LTM Simon #2120 ************************************************************** From Ric I can see how having Fred and Amelia's fingerprints documented could be useful if we find artifacts which could be tested, but I think that we're getting all wrapped up in specualtion about how to do something that we don't need to do yet. Am I missing something? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:52:51 EST From: Craig Fuller Subject: Re: Press Coverage You can chalk up another small town (well actually county) newspaper running the article. The Press Democrat, Santa Rosa CA. But more interesting is that one of its columnist, Gaye LeBaron, who has a column on local area history also picked up on the story. She tied it into local news being that "former Petaluma resident Dr. Thomas King will present findings from an examination of archival material about a skeleton found on Nikumaroro Island in the Central Pacific three years after Earhart's plane disappeared." Craig Fuller TIGHAR 1589C *************************************************************** From Ric Well, well... We always wondered where he came from. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:26:43 EST From: anonymous Subject: Attack It is something we are all waiting for I suppose, but I wouldn't get too cocky Ric. The bones, if found, should be checked, and this should be done with the full cooperation of Earhart's living relatives. After this has been done, and re-testing by different private factions is allowed, to include one or more chartered idependently by the Earhart Society of Researchers, I hope you eventually regret the lack of respect you have consistently shown to the World War Two historians and heroes that have spent so much more time over the years, and more of their own money, to learn more about this subject than you ever will. But this is yout tighar folly and you gotta keep those bucks commin in somehow, even if you're chasin Earhart in the wrong direction, with the knowledge that you are the only one Uncle Sam will never challenge because of your politically correct stance. If you are so sure that Rollin Reineck is the only one out there ready to face you with a challenge, (by the way, Reineck is a distinguished veteran who served our country as well... more why it puzzles me that you don't show these great Americans to whom we owe so much more respect than you do) you're a less formidable opponent than I thought. There are legions of great Americans that would welcome the opportunity to be there when you finally learn how the trivial information you came upon was originally categorized in England all those years ago. Unfortunately this will be something that chagrins you greatly, but for now we'll have to let the thing play out. How silly of you to be so naive... but then you've always been a little naive about Earhart anyway, so that comes as no surprise. You know, Gillespie happens to be a family name linked closely with the father of our country, George Washington. Remember Ric, he couldn't tell a lie... Another thing, your "love to mother" cynical comments at the end of your myopic driveling statements and on those silly buttons you proposed is not going over to well in a few halls in DC. You didn't need to carry that over from the National Geographic forum from earlier this year. That shows a reckless lack of maturity on your part. I'd be careful there if I were you. Does your wife agree with those types of reactive commentaries of yours? I know she agrees with your ninety grand a year checks Tighar pays you, to chase Earhart in the wrong direction, and always will as long as you can keep em fooled. Oh well, gotta go. Good jabbin with you. How was England by the way? Oh, less fruitful than you hoped huh? Oh well, hang in there. You're great entertainment for us all. By the way, several of your ex members continued to e-mail me with tid bits and anecdotes about your operatives. Most said non-supportive things about you. How strange. What do you make of that? By the way, you write too much stuff that says nothing. Economize Ric. Most of of it is so boring and kooky anyway, we don't need to hear it all. See ya. ************************************************************* From Ric In case anyone was wondering about the oft-quoted but seldom-named critics of TIGHAR's work, here is a classic example of what we're up against. His cowardly anonymous comments merit no response from me except to say that my annual salary at TIGHAR is less than $55,000 and this year the organization has only been able to pay me a fraction that. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:31:12 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Special Newbie Welcome No, no, Bruce, it's where you PUT the shovel that counts. LTM Tom King ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:33:07 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re: GMA Ric, don't forget the most important thing to remember about TV - it's primary reason for existence is to sell advertising... ltm jon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:47:46 EST From: Tom Van Hare Subject: Re: Sextant boxes revisited > Could it be the Box numbers are Navy inventory numbers? Would > there be a way to locate the Navy paper work on these loans > to civilians. I know today you have to sign everything including > your mother away to get even a bolt out of the military. What's the number on the box you are trying to look up? Also, please provide other information. This is something that we may be able to do on your behalf, though I'll have to check with the researchers -- if we can't we'll be able to find where the records are, how to access them, etc. More commonly, we get requests on serial numbers of military wristwatches, for which records were kept as well. Just give the word and we'll look into it. Another note, if may turn out that the box is registered to a Navy officer who is MIA, and its discovery will be very important news for someone's family out there. Either way, we need to follow up on this. If you hadn't realized it, one of the roles we play at Historic Wings is as a clearing house of wartime-related information for veterans, veterans' families, and friends -- we've put together many old friends, provided information to families who lost loved ones, and much more through our research arm and in the forums -- an example: http://www.historicwings.com/forums/b17/ By the way, we are still interested in doing an AE feature story (very positive toward TIGHAR, of course). Please drop me a note letting us know how we move forward from here.... Thomas Van Hare *************************************************************** From Ric I'm happy to help with a story. No need to make it positive toward TIGHAR. Just report the facts. Let me know what questions you have. The numbers reported to have been on the sextant box were 3500 (stenciled) and 1542 (apparently not stenciled). No mention of a plaque. The corners of the wooden box were dovetailed. That's really all we know. Our initial investigations revealed no similarity to U.S. Navy numbers but we're happy for any help we can get. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:56:00 EST From: Russ Matthews Subject: Newsweek Just received the latest copy of Newsweek (12/14/98) in the mail and we're on page 8. Looks like it's just the LA Times piece rewritten again (many of the same errors repeat themselves, though in a somewhat more smarmy way). MYSTERY Maybe It's Miss Amelia Sixty one years after Amelia Earhart vanished over the Pacific Ocean, her most dogged pursuer believes he has the finest evidence yet about where she drew her last breath. According to Richard Gillespie, founder of the nonprofit International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery, a handful of bones discovered in 1940 by British soldiers on the tiny South Pacific island of Nikumaroro may belong to Earhart. There's just one problem: no one knows where the bones are. Gillespie's conclusions are based on two anthropologists' rereading of a British doctor's examination of the bones after they were initially found. The doctor thought they belonged to a man; the scientists say he was wrong. Without the specimens though, it's impossible to know for sure. That didn't stop Gillespie, a pilot whose hotly disputed claims include finding Earhart's shoe and a piece of her plane, from touting the news at a major anthropology conference last week. In addition to Earhart's mortal remains, he's hunting some bucks - about 500,000 of them - to finance a trip to the region so he can search some more. The text is reprinted on the Newseek website at www.newsweek.com/nw-srv/printed/us/dept/ps/ps_4.html LTM Russ ************************************************************** From Ric We should also have a piece in the next U.S. News & World Report and possibly another article in the New York Times. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:58:42 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Re Army Records Ric - could the Major (helicopter pilot) have been a Marine? Sorry if this muddies the waters... ltm, jon ************************************************************** From Ric Not very likely from what I understand about the SAMTEC operation, but I'll let Forest and Bruce be the judge. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:10:59 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Conspiracies & castaways Ric says, of the Norwich City as a source of castaways: > That leaves 8 bodies unaccounted for, but for any of them to become a > "castaway" would mean somehow getting ashore alive but not hooking up with the > others and not getting rescued. Seems extremely unlikely. Well, yeah, but not impossible. Somebody falls off the ship, is washed through Tatiman Passage into the lagoon and down to Aukaraime or Kanawa Point, crawls ashore, maybe injured, unable to get back up the shore and isn't sure where s/he is anyway, survives a time and then dies. OK, it's unlikely, and made more unlikely by the apparent sex of the castaway, and the multisex shoes, but it's not completely beyond possibility. *************************************************************** From Ric Granted. This kind of dilemma comes up repeatedly. Few events are completely beyond possibility and complex sequences of unlikely events occur all the time, and yet, the correct answer is usually the most obvious answer. You can't find your car keys. They're not on the hook by the door where you always leave them. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that somebody stole them, but it's probably a good idea to check your jacket pocket before calling the police. LTM TomKing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:27:36 EST From: Jon Watson Subject: Fred's DNA Ric, ref Fred's dna, are we sure there were no siblings - maybe even cousins? There was recently a recap of the Romanov story on Biography (I think), and they were able to eliminate the woman from Berlin as Anastasia, due to dna comparison with Prince Phillip, who was a distant cousin of the Romanov's. Don't recall if anyone has ever indicated that Fred had any other family... ltm jon ************************************************************** From Ric No, we're not sure that Fred had no siblings, only that his mother died shortly after his birth. **************************************************************** From Jerry Hamilton RE: "There is another possible solution to the Noonan DNA problem. Dig up his mother. Of course, we wouldn't do that unless we had bones that we had reason to suspect were Fred's, and we'd have to know where she's buried, but maybe we should go ahead and at least locate the grave." We already know where she is buried. It's a cemetery on the South Side of Chicago. I have been in contact with the people there while searching for information on Noonan's various relations. blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric Okay. We're all set. All we need now are some bones we suspect might be Fred's; official permission to exhume; and a shovel. (We have the shovel.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:45:51 EST From: Dean Alexander Subject: Re: Attack Ric, This guy's definitely got some hang-ups and not small ones at that ! ************************************************************* From George Kastner Absolutely amazing what passes for ''thought'' these days. Sorry that you must put up with this, Ric. I could not do it. Thank you, and Good Holidays/G. Kastner 0862C ************************************************************* From Jim Tierney 0821 (JimErnieT@AOL.COM) 12/9/98 15:52 Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who is this guy??????????? Where does he come from?????????????? Why does he take off and dump all over you at this time?????????????? What is his agenda????????????? What are his reasons?????????????? Anybody know who he is????????????? I have to print his diatribe and read it at my leisure Any other comments from anybody...... Let me state my unwavering support for Mr/Mrs Gillespie and what they are doing and how they are doing it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jim Tierney--Simi Valley, CA PS- Ric-Thanks for publishing his comments... Shows guts... JT *************************************************************** From Ric No guts required. We have nothing to hide and the facts speak for themselves. His refusal to reveal his name is typical of the conspiracy crowd. That's okay. Once these guys are exposed to some sunlight they either shrivel up or slink back into their hole. *************************************************************** From Tom Robison >It is something we are all waiting for I suppose, but I wouldn't get too > cocky Ric. The bones, if found, should be checked, and this should be >done with the full cooperation of Earhart's living relatives. This fella obviously hasn't been on the Forum for a while, nor has he visited the website. I think Ric has made it clear that DNA testing will have to be done in order to prove the lineage of the bones, and that the Earhart family is cautiously cooperative. >Researchers, I hope you eventually regret the lack of respect you have >consistently shown to the World War Two historians and heroes that have spent >so much more time over the years, and more of their own money, to learn more >about this subject than you ever will. Ric, what does he mean by this? Now I've only been a Tighar member for about half a year, but I have been following TIGHAR's exploits for many more than that. I've never detected any lack of respect toward any other historical group, except perhaps the "crashed and sank" club. I, for one, am a [admittedly amateur] WWII historian myself, and I think you have done much to further WWII research in the Pacific. What is the writer's basis for his comments? >But this is yout tighar folly and you > gotta keep those bucks commin in somehow, even if you're chasin Earhart >in the wrong direction, with the knowledge that you are the only one Uncle > Sam will never challenge because of your politically correct stance. Ric, does he mean you are [gasp] a liberal? Dear me, that thought never occurred to me. Oh, well, I'll forgive you this one peccadillo. >Another thing, your "love to mother" cynical comments at the end of your >myopic driveling statements and on those silly buttons you proposed >is not going over to well in a few halls in DC. Love to Mother, cynical? Who is this whacko? Why would anyone in DC care about a sentimental tag line? Ric, please, if you can offer any enlightenment as to what planet this guy is from, fill us in. Tom #2179 ************************************************************** From Ric The planet this guy is from is called Conspiritar. It's a cold, bleak world in the Paranoid system and it's part of an alternative, parallel universe where all things have hidden meanings, where absence of evidence is proof of a cover-up and where reality is whatever you say it is. I've done battle with these creatures many times before and I've learned a few things about them. 1. They prefer to hurl their little missiles anonymously. 2. They never have their facts straight (as you note about the DNA issue). 3. They delight in distortion. I am not disrespectful of World War II heroes (my own father IS one). I am, however, disrespectful of anyone who claims to be a historian but eschews the accepted standards for establishing historical fact. Virtually all of the Earhart conspiracy authors and buffs fall into that category and, yes, I am decidedly disrespectful toward them. 4. They will never be convinced by any document or artifact or DNA match because their beliefs are not based upon facts but upon their view of the world. My political opinions are of no consequence, but since you ask, I am registered as an independent. I think that if the government which governs least, governs best, then we must have the best of all possible governments because these days it seems to be governing not at all. And if our critical friend believes for one second that we're intimidated by his vague threats about our "love to mother" tag line "not going over to well in a few halls in DC", he has sadly misjudged an organization which goes by the acronym TIGHAR. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:45:57 EST From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Waste of time My check is in the mail for membership in TIGHAR...I'm disappointed though that you continue to allow such dribble as the latest attack from sk82son... Most of us are professionals with little enough time on our hands for the IMPORTANT stuff... Let's cut out the garbage and get on with the business at hand... Patrick N. Robinson *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks. I share your sentiments about characters like sk82son but, at the same time, I don't want anyone to think that we're censoring criticism or stifling opposing viewpoints. It's always hard to strike a balance. This same anonymous critic has offered another posting which purports to defend the "love to mother" telegram but, of course, presents no documentation to support his claims. I've rejected the posting and told that I'll only put it up on the forum if he can show that it is anything but unsubstantiated anecdote. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:10:12 EST From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Fingerprint logic My premise as to what good it would be is this: Even if we only have one thumbprint on file, people usually only pick up rectangular objects, like sextant boxes, in certain ways with opposing thumb hands, as we have. (Being a piano major, I'm attuned somewhat to hand anatomy!) Given that situation, it may be possible to reconstruct the rest of Fred's prints from that box which we know was his. THEN----take THOSE prints to compare with any on the other box(the island box), which remains to be found. If you get a match there, WOW! Then you know that Fred did indeed handle the island box!!! Hurrah! THAT'S the value of it all. Thanks for your consideration.---Gene Dangelo, #2211 :) *************************************************************** From Ric Okay, I see your point. We know where the Pensacola box is (Pensacola) and if we get something from the island that might have Fred's prints we could pursue this line of investigation. Howzat? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:50:17 EST From: Forest Blair Subject: Re: Army records center3 To: Tom Van Hare Thanks for your offer to help find retirees. All we know (we think) is that the chap we're trying to locate has the following ID (which is not much to work from): Harold Martin, Major USA (Ret) Helicopter pilot Stationed at/near Fort Rucker before 1970 Had a Vietnam tour (most likely) Retired no later than mid 1970 All help will be greatly appreciated. One bit of info that may be helpful to Historic Wings is that one of the three CH-3's we had at Canton in 1970 was a "movie star". It had the same "tail" number as one used in the old space movie "Marooned". Don't remember the number but did confirm it at the time I saw the movie way back. If Historic Wings tracks by aircraft missions, however, this might be a help. Not much info to go on, I know. That's sort of the name of the game with the TIGHAR gang. Always great, however, when we do find something. Forest Blair ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:07:07 EST From: Tom King Subject: Re: Press Coverage (referring to disclosure in the media that the venerable Dr. King was born in Petaluma, CA) Just me and the chickens (Petaluma used to be called the Egg Basket of the World). Gaye is an old buddy of my sister (a retired local newspaper owner), and I pass on stuff to her. Which reminds me, can I order a couple of gift memberships for Christmas presents and get something to send the recipients? LTM TK ************************************************************** From Ric Gift memberships in TIGHAR as unique holiday presents? Say Tom, that sounds like a swell idea! What a great way to please that brainy, already-has-everything history enthusiast on your list, while also helping to find Amelia. Just let us know the name and address of the lucky recipients and we'll send them an attractive greeting along with their membership card, sticker and TIGHAR Tracks (and whatever other TIGHAR goodies you may wish to order) in time for Christmas (or to you if you prefer). And now, back to our program... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:10:26 EST From: Forest Blair Subject: Re: Army Records For Jon Watson, Yes, the helicopter pilots could have been from any of the DOD agencies, as well as the Coast Guard and civilian agencies. The pilots worked for a civilian contractor (Global Air) which in turn contracted services to the Air Force (SAMTEC). The pilots I remember, however, were ex-DOD types, and were retired from the military. None of the aircrews were on active duty with the military when working at Canton. Major Martin used to talk about performing exercises with Army troops. That's my only clue to his being ex-Army. Bruce may have some better info. Forest #2149 *************************************************************** From Ric Hmmm. Performing exercises with Army troops... I've done that. We called them push-ups. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:17:52 EST From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Anonymous postings Whilst understanding and agreeing with your sentiments regarding not censoring critical postings, surely it seems reasonable that people posting contributions at least identify themselves. Many news group moderators refuse to accept anonymous contributions - so I think you're well within your rights to withhold contributions bearing only cryptic e-mail addresses. LTM Simon #2120 *************************************************************** From Ric Yeah, you're probably right. We let ol' "sactodave" (David Baker) get away with it for awhile, and I just felt kind of sorry for this poor little guy. The world must be a very scary place for a dedicated conspiracy buff. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:30:43 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Back into his hole As reported earlier, sk82son submitted a posting which purported to explain the "love to mother" incident. I replied: >I have not posted your message to the forum because you provide no evidence to > support your allegations. I'll be happy to post it if you can show that it is > anything but unsubstantiated anecdote. To which sk82son has now replied: "Okay. Good luck to you." 'nuff said. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:33:17 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Noonan siblings RE: question of whether we are sure there are no Noonan siblings. Ric's response was correct. We are not "entirely" sure whether there were brothers and sisters or not. However, nothing has turned up after a reasonably exhaustive search so far. No census info, no birth records, no church records, and no references from any other written material we have. His mother died four years after his birth. But we haven't been able to establish his parents marriage date yet. We are still searching via church records (the state has nothing). While the search for siblings goes on, we are running out of avenues to explore. Personally, I am doubtful that we will find any siblings at this point. We are also trying to determine whether his mother had sisters. Female descendants of his aunts, if any, could be used for dna testing. To that end, we might need a volunteer to go to the regional National Archives in Chicago (7358 South Pulaski Road) to look up some immigration information. Please contact me if you are interested and can help with this. blue skies, -jerry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:20:22 EST From: George Mershon Subject: RealPlayer suprise I downloaded my new version of RealPlayer Plus G2 via the net and found "A.E.'s Last Flight" preloaded in the software ( with about four other choices ). Man, you are getting the world "booted up"! EeeeHaaaaa! George Mershon 2181 *************************************************************** From Ric Holy Guacamole! We had no idea. Hits on the TIGHAR website have been going through the roof. I wonder if we're reaching some kind of critical mass. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 17:21:54 EST From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: Fingerprint logic Zat's poifect! Have a great weekend! Gene Dangelo #2211 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:18:50 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Crabs & bones Just to open another can of worms (or crabs), Tom King recently got this input from a fellow archaeologist on Saipan: "Thinking back on WWII remains that we have found, there was one instance where we found a well preserved skeleton that must originally have been laid out on the ground surface (in an area where there should have been many coconut crabs). It was essentially intact, suggesting that crabs do not scatter bones". Which prompts me to wonder if we should ask ourselves: Who says that Gallagher's supposition that the bones were scattered by coconut crabs was correct? Was he an expert on the depredations of Birgus latro (the coconut or robber crab) any more than we are? In 1989 we saw an intact but very dead cat in the island's co-op store. Why didn't the crabs scatt