Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 06:59:56 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Lae Movie Film We saw a couple seconds of the old film of the takeoff from Lae on the TV programs a while back. It would be very interesting to see more of that film. Who has the film currently? Would there be any possibility of getting it put on a video cassette? Copies could be made available -- for a price. This might be something Barbara would like to be able to show to her kids. It's pretty much the point where the mystery all begins. It's a bit like going back in time and actually seeing the Electra make it's last takeoff run and climb into the air... and into history. They seened to be off to a good start. Then the communication problem began to appear. In a few hours Amelia and Fred will have vanished into one of the most challenging mysteries of the century. It's a mystery that seems to intrigue children... as well as some other people! I think that film would arouse their interest and curiosity as much as the books and documentaries do. And that's where we get to them... that curiosity!! ************************************************************** From Ric You're absolutely right. The Lae film is tremendously poignant. But like everything else, it requires an informed observer to understand its significance. Unless you know about the mystery, it's just a scratchy old piece of film showing a man and a woman getting into an airplane and taking off. Fortunately, the mystery is well known and kids are riveted by it. Making it more widely available is hampered by the fact that the entire sequence is only about 30 seconds long. You can't exactly market a 30 second videotape. However, we definitely plan to include it (along with lots of instant replay, stop action analysis) in the film(s) we'll be making with the funding that we're hoping will be forthcoming for the Voyage of Discovery educational program. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:25:28 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Bone discovery analysis (long) I've been doing some thinking (always dangerous). The following treatise will only make sense if you're up to speed on the bones that were found on Nikumaroro in 1940. If you're not (and if you'd like to be) I'd recommend that you read "The Tarawa File" which can be found on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org. You'll find the link on the Earhart Project page at the bottom under For More Information. You might also read "Paradise Lost - a brief history of Nikumaroro" which can be found in the same place. *********************************************************** Our first indication that bones had once been found on Niku came back in 1989 when we became aware of a 1960 newspaper article which related a tale told by a Coast Guard veteran by the name of Floyd Kilts. It was pure anecdote, describing alleged events from 1938, related to Kilts in 1946 when he participated in the dismantling of the Loran station on Gardner, and told to a San Diego newspaper reporter in 1960. Pretty shaky. Parts of Kilts' story seemed to track well with the island's known history. Other parts were clearly not true, and much of it just seemed fantastical. Ten years of research have produced far more documented information than we ever would have dreamed possible and we can now look at the Kilts Story and make a reasonable attempt to understand how it relates to actual events. Also, for some time I've had a suspicion that a careful reconstruction of known events on Niku during the time period when the skull could have first been found might yield some clues about when it actually WAS found. Gallagher doesn't seem quite sure when it was found. In his September 23rd telegram he says the skull was found "some months ago" but it is still buried at that time. In his December 27th letter he says that the skull "has been buried in damp ground for nearly a year." But it's not at all clear when the skull was dug up. I now suspect that the skull was found much earlier - in Jaunuary of 1939. I've assembled a detailed timeline of the events we know about from the arrival of the NZ survey party on November 30, 1938 until Gallagher's first telegram referencing the bottle and skull on September 23, 1940. A few of things really strike me. - During that entire time there are very few working men on the island - ten at first and then four more - that's it. The rest are women and children. - There's no radio until Gallagher gets there. - There are at least two births on the island during that time, but no deaths. It's also interesting to note that for one week in early 1939 there are 23 people on Niku - the number which Kilts says are on the island at the time the bones are found. Other key elements of the Kilts story are satisfied during this brief period: "latter part of 1938" (well, Jan. of '39) "native island doctor" (Tutu) "no native women on the island" (at least up until then) "New Zealand officials" (doing the survey) These elements of the Kilts story come together only during this time known in the island's folklore as The Great Search For Water - the first time when there is a real exploration of the island by the Gilbertese. Here is the Floyd Kilts story as it appeared in the San Diego Tribune on July 21, 1960: ********************************** A native tried to tell me about it, but I couldn't understand all of it so I got an interpreter. It seems that in the latter part of 1938 there were 23 island people, all men, and an Irish magistrate planting coconut trees on Gardner for the government of New Zealand. They were about through and the native was walking along one end of the island. There in the brush about five feet from the shoreline he saw a skeleton. What attracted him to it was the shoes. Women's shoes, American kind. No native wears shoes. Couldn't if they wanted to --- feet too spread out and flat. The shoes were size nine narrow. Beside the skeleton was a cognac bottle with fresh water in it for drinking. The island doctor said the skeleton was that of a woman. And there were no native women on the island then. Farther down the beach he found a man's skull but nothing else. The magistrate was a young Irishman who got excited when he saw the bones. He thought of Amelia Earhart right away. He put the bones in a gunnysack and with the native doctor, and three other natives in a 22-foot, four-oared boat started for Suva, Fiji, 887 nautical miles away. The magistrate was anxious to get the news to the world. But on the way the Irishman came down with pneumonia. When only 24 hours out of Suva he died. The natives are superstitious as the devil and the next night after the young fellow died they threw the gunnysack full of bones overboard, scared of the spirits. And that was that. This same account was related by the doctor to New Zealand officials. ********************************** Here is the Floyd Kilts story broken down phrase by phrase. "A native tried to tell me about it, but I couldn't understand all of it so I got an interpreter." In 1946 there must be an islander who knows some, but not enough, English and was present on the island at the time of the incident. There must also be an islander who has sufficient English to act as an interpreter. "It seems that in the latter part of 1938 there were 23 island people, all men," There was no time in the latter part of 1938 when there were 23 island people on Gardner, regardless of gender. There was, however, a period of one week from January 4-11, 1939 when there seem to have been exactly 23 "island people" present. It's likley that at least one of them (Mautake's wife) was a woman but up until that time the population had been "all men." "and an Irish magistrate planting coconut trees on Gardner for the government of New Zealand". Several elements get pretty confused here but they're all true: - the magistrate didn't arrive until later but his nickname was "Irish" - the point was indeed to plant coconut trees - New Zealand officials were present "They were about through..." This probably refers to the events of 1940 when the clearing and planting of the main plantation was "about through." "and the native was walking along one end of the island." This is the same problem we have with Gallagher's description of the bone site. What end of what island? How far did they really range during TGSW? The Gilbertese who were with Bevington in 1937 judged the country beyond Bauareke to be "poor." "There in the brush about five feet from the shoreline he saw a skeleton." Again, this appears to describe the vents of October of 1940 when Gallagher orders the search for bones based upon the story of the skull. "What attracted him to it was the shoes. Women's shoes," We're still in 1940. Gallagher corroborates the discovery of women's shoes. "American kind." Not "American", but "American kind." As opposed to what? British kind? It seems likely that this description comes about through Kilts' inquiry as to what kind of shoes they were and the informant's reference to shoes Kilts was wearing. That would match well with Gallagher's description of a "stoutish walking shoe." "No native wears shoes. Couldn't if they wanted to --- feet too spread out and flat. The shoes were size nine narrow." This is really an incredible piece of detail. If Kilts isn't just flat making this up, where does it come from if it's not an essential part of the folklore? If we can't find a reference to AE's shoe size you can bet that Kilts couldn't either. Does a Gilbertese in 1946 who doesn't wear shoes know enough about the way American shoes are sized to provide this embellishment? Gallagher said that he found part of the sole. That's where the size would be printed. He didn't mention that the size was legible, but that doesn't mean it wasn't. This smells to me like real information. "Beside the skeleton was a cognac bottle with fresh water in it for drinking." We're back to ca 1938 again. We know that the bottle was found with the skull, not the skeleton. Kilts is correct, however, that it was a cognac bottle - Benedictine to be exact. Gallagher says the bottle was empty, and by the time he saw the bottle it probably was. Kilts' informant is describing the bottle at the time of discovery and may have better information than Gallagher. This is an important detail in determining cause of death. You don't die of thirst if you have a bottle of water. "The island doctor said the skeleton was that of a woman." Things are all confused again. Is this1939 when Native Medical Practioner Tutu may have offered an opinion about gender based entirely upon the skull? Or is this 1940 when Gallagher, not an island doctor, thinks the skeleton is that of a woman? Or is this 1941 when Dr. MacPherson may have expressed some opinion contrary to Dr. Hoodless? "And there were no native women on the island then." This seems like an unnecessary comment. He has already said that the 23 island people were all men. He just got through saying that these are women's shoes and natives don't wear shoes. It' apparently very important to the story that there is no other explanation for a woman being there. "Farther down the beach he found a man's skull but nothing else." Now we're back in 1939 again. Yes, the skull was found independent of the other bones but how, I wonder, does the idea get started that the skull and the skeleton are two different people? How much "farther down the beach" was the skull found from where the skeleton was later discovered? Apparently far enough to create the impression of two different people. If it was all one person, what moved the skull? Coconut crab seems the likeliest answer. "The magistrate was a young Irishman who got excited when he saw the bones. He thought of Amelia Earhart right away. " Yes, that's right. "He put the bones in a gunnysack" I suspect he did. The bones were found prior to Gallagher's initial September 23rd telegram. On October 17 they were "in locked chest in office pending construction of coffin." How else would you carry them from the site to the office? "and with the native doctor, and three other natives in a 22-foot, four-oared boat started for Suva, Fiji, 887 nautical miles away." As we've said before, there was such a boat and Gallagher and the bones did go to Fiji (although not together). "The magistrate was anxious to get the news to the world. But on the way the Irishman came down with pneumonia. When only 24 hours out of Suva he died." By the time Gallagher left for Fiji, both Dr. Isaac and Dr. Hoodless had shot down the idea that he had found Amelia Earhart. But what did Gallagher think? Was his visit to Fiji in any way connected with the bones? Change pneumonia to peritonitis and change 24 hours out of Suva to 24 hours after his return to Niku and the story is correct. "The natives are superstitious as the devil and the next night after the young fellow died they threw the gunnysack full of bones overboard, scared of the spirits. And that was that." How does Kilts know that the Gilbertese are worried about the "spirits" associated with the bones unless they tell him? And the story of the bones being thrown overboard doesn't hang together. - Gallagher dies in the open boat 24 ours out of Suva - The bones are not thrown overboard until "the next night." Why would they wait? We know that Gallagher died at night. By "the next night" they should be in Suva. This is actually the only part of the Kilts story that doesn't track well with known events. "This same account was related by the doctor to New Zealand officials." Kilts was clearly under the impression that the island was under New Zealand administration. This opens the possibility that he was told only that the doctor related the account to "officials" and Kilts assumed that he meant New Zealand officials. However, we certainly have come across no reference to a report by a "native doctor" to any official and it's hard to image what would occasion such a report, given that Gallagher was in communication with the WPHC throughout the whole affair. A better possibility (I think) is that it happened exactly as Kilts says. The skull is found in January 1939 and is reported by Tutu (naturally) to the New Zealand officials who are on the island at the time. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:29:04 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film Why not convert it to MPEG format and distribute it on your web site? *************************************************************** From Ric I'll check into that possibility. Depends on how big it would be. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:50:24 EDT From: Jerry Ellis Subject: "Courage" Ric and all, I know this is off topic but I'm looking for info about the value of an old copy of the sheet music of "Courage", the 1934 AE poem set to music by Charles Ridgway in 1937. Your help would be greatly appreciated and please respond to me at cfjwe@eiu.edu. Thanks. jerry ellis #2113 **************************************************************** From Ric I didn't know it had been set to music. We'd sure like to have a photocopy for the file. There have been several songs written about Earhart. The earliest one I was aware of was a real period piece in a proto-country/western style called "Amelia Earhart's Last Flight" with a classic chorus that went "Happy landings to you Amelia Earhart. Farewell, First Lady of the Air." ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:24:01 EDT From: Jack J. Subject: Re: Federal Standard Color # 12197 I looked up this FS # in my FS 595B color "fan" (color chips on strips that fold in and out like a fan). The color look much to dark. Did I understand you correctly that you were able to match the color of an actual piece of the L-10 E NR16020? The reason, or lack thereof, for my doubts are as follows: 1) In a book about AE's advisor, Paul Mantz, the author relates Mantz's story as to how the color was chosen. That is, Putnum wanted the aircraft painted black and gold (which are the colors of THAT university in central Indiana where AE was an advisor. Mantz insisted the aircraft be trimmed in bright orange so that it could be seen from a distance if it were to go down. IF I remember the story correctly, a big IF (at my age), Mantz wanted the color to be "aviation orange" or international orange (I don't remember which one of these it was and I can't remember who I loaned the book to refresh my memory. The bottom line of the story was that Mantz won out over George Putnam. 2) The Time Life books series had an edition dedicated to women in aviation. This book has a colored drawing of the L-10 E NR16020, and upon inquiry Time Life assured me that the color used in the book is correct as it had been supplied by the American Aviation Historical Society. They (Time Life) refused to Identify the source further. Maybe you would have better luck getting them to identify their source. There is the possibility that the dark orange you believe to be correct, is correct. Maybe Putnam had the last word after all. The dark orange could be referred to as "Gold." Throw in the black trim, and Putnam could tell the powers that be in Indiana that "The" aircraft was painted Black and Gold. This would be perfectly in character with G. P. Putnam. Ric, as a modeler of some 40 years I can tell you that there is nothing worse than an incorrect scale replica of a historic aircraft. I sense that you are dedicated to the idea of getting this model right. I believe as you do that it, the scale replica (model), should be as accurate as possible. AE would not have it any other way, and deserves nothing less. Lastly, I will share with you an old adage I have heard all of my life. Water seeks it's own level! (tongue deeply planted in cheek) Chuckle, Chuckle. LTM Jack J. *************************************************************** From Ric The color match was indeed done to the only known existing piece of metal from the airplane. A former Lockheed employee salvaged it during the repairs which followed the Luke Field crash. It has been protected as a personal treasure ever since. Unless the color has chemically deteriorated over the years, I don't know what could be more accurate. I remember reading about the color debate between Putnam and Mantz also, but I don't know where it was or what it's source was. As for the TIME/LIFE cutaway drawing (which has appeared in many places), it has many inaccuracies but I'm not at all surprised that they would assure you that it is correct. Bottom line is, we gotta go with the best source. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:51:05 EDT From: Lew Bone Subject: Niku - thoughts from the other side of the Pacific The Niku bones summary from last night was interesting. Throughout the time I have been watching on progress I have been constantly thinking that Tighar is heavily dependent, and relying, upon securing hard costly physical evidence at Niku which if found would certainly bring things to a conclusion, but I can't help thinking that part of the answer to this mystery might like so many other investigations also be simply within the knowledge of ordinary people. So often, there are people who frequently and sometimes even unbeknown to them hold very significant information that can contribute a big part of a jigsaw such as this one. Yes, which is all very fine of course, but as you well know the trick however is to (1) find out exactly who these people are - i.e. identify them., (2) then locate them., (3) then properly debrief them and secure the particular info you need, by sifting the relevant from the irrelevant. With particular relevance to the bones, and other more human (as opposed to physical) evidence at Niku, what I'm getting at is that I feel there may be relatives, if not living members at least, of two sectors that may assist your search, either of whom I may be able to help with. These are (1) the former islanders themselves and (2) the New Zealanders. With regard to the islanders, I haven't got a feel for this (yes, I need to read up on it more...!) but I understand they later dispersed all over. Nonetheless, locating them, or their relatives, may not be as daunting as it seems as to my (admittedly little) knowledge, such communities are quite close, and tend to stay in touch with one another or at least know where folk can be found. Auckland for instance has a massive ex-pat island population. Some inquiries with community leaders there might be a starting point. Or have you already got this under control via Kiribati sources? I see from the main Tighar site that Tighar is in fact needing help with the New Zealand survey party connection. If you are requiring someone to track down members of these parties, or their relatives, I could try and help you on this if that is the sort of help you need. To do so I would need to have all the available associated information you have to date, a large part of which I assume you may have obtained perhaps from NZ Archives? Is such help still needed? If so, please give me some more basic details and I will then provide you with an outline of what I think I could do here. Two other matters. - Are you quite happy that Tighar has a thorough knowledge of current New Zealand/Australian/Fijian etc maritime activity in the Kiribati region of the type that might provide Tighar with better/cheaper expeditionary access to, and logistical support on, Niku? Lastly, - a totally wild idea which will probably throw you and Pat off your seats in fits of laughter, but in view of the quite bizarre past allegations and theories of Japanese involvement in the matter, would it be a naive suggestion to float the whole search scenario past an appropriate Japanese source (University, company, corporation, airline, aviation group whatever) in an attempt to secure their interest (and their $$$$) and actively involve them? Who knows, they may see some nationalistic pride involved in laying to rest the crazy theories of western conspiratorial factions who have been giving them a bad press over the years. Despite the Asian economic downturn, you might find a body which is willing to financially and philosophically back the next Niku expedition. All you have to do is ask. And professionally package it to give it credibility to such a market. Corporations that quickly come to mind are those with an already strong commercial presence in the US such as Mitsubishi etc who as you know had wartime aviation involvement and may now consider there to be some commercial benefits in participating, as well as nationalistic ones. I believe that there is a strong aviation archaeology following in Japan which has included physical recovery, restoration and display of WW2 Pacific theatre aircraft. Or is this idea too much off the wall?? Let me know if any of this is of help. Best regards Lew Bone **************************************************************** From Ric We'd appreciate your help in trying to track down any surviving members of the New Zealand survey party who were on Gardner in late 1938/early 1939. It would be especially nice if you joined the organization. Here's what we know about the individuals in question: At 11:30 a.m. on November 30, 1938 - The British Pacific Islands Survey Expedition arrived at Gardner from Suva, Fiji aboard the chartered vessel Yanawai." Their purpose was to determine whether the lagoon was suitable for seaplane landings and to assess the practicality of constructing an airfield on the atoll. The survey team focused on taking soundings in the lagoon and mapping the island's northwestern tip - the only land area big enough for a runway. The team comprised six of the following, but we're not sure which six except for Henderson and Lee. J.A. Henderson, Surveyor (but he was injured and soon evacuated) E.W. Lee, Aerodrome Engineer and acting OIC after Henderson's departure R.A. Wimbush, Imperial airways, Echo-Sounding Expert (Great Britain) R.B Roberts, Engineering Assistant (Fiji) C. Harlen, Surveyor (Fiji) B.J. Patten, Draughtsman (NZ) T.W. Hoult, Chainman and Instrument Man (NZ) B.O. Carr, Launch Coxwain/Survey Assistant (NZ) Lt. J.A. Ritchie, RNR (Ret. '38) Commissariat and Stores (NZ) Acting Petty Officer M.H. Hay, Telegraphist RNZN They departed on February 5, 1939. I agree with you in principle that there are probably living individuals who have important information which may help us, but anything they have to say is useful only to the degree that it points us toward hard evidence. We will never solve the Earhart mystery with anecdotes. The Japanese-capture crowd has been trying to do that for many years. We do have a pretty good handle on maritime activity in the area but we have no desire to "piggyback." We need a dedicated support vessel, operating at our direction and on our schedule. As for Japanese support, the 1991 Niku II expedition received over $75,000 in contributions from Japanese sources via the Pacific Society, a Tokyo-based nonprofit historical foundation. Further fund-raising attempts in Japan have met with less success due to economic factors and they already consider TIGHAR's findings to be conclusive enough to exonerate the Japanese from any culpability in the Earhart disappearance. I guess we've been too successful. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:55:05 EDT From: Walt Holm Subject: NZ survey Has any archival research work been done in New Zealand with regard to this '38-'39 survey? -Walt ************************************************************** From Ric Lots and lots. We have what reports there are and a whole bunch of snapshots taken by the survey team. What we need now is to find out if any of the guys are still living. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:11:14 EDT From: Chuck Jackson Subject: Psitech wreck site is this old news to you???????? http://www.trv-psitech.com/projects/map.asp?page=4 *************************************************************** From Ric Well, I knew that Ed Dames had used his magical remote viewing techniques to come up with a place where he thinks Earhart's wreck is. I didn't know (and don't much care) where that place is. The map shown in the above referenced URL is of Kuria Island in the Gilberts group (Kiribati) just south of Tarawa. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:26:48 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Psitech site HI GANG- I JUST VISITED PSITECH (ED DASMES'S WEB SITE). I THINK HE HAS A HELLUVA BETTE\R CHANCE OF FINDING THE WRECKAGE THAN YOU GUYS DO. AT LEAST HE SEEMS TO HAVE DONE MORE RESEARCH. YHSN RIC:) STB - DICK STRIPPEL ************************************************************** From Ric You disappoint me, Dick. ======================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:29:56 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Ada -- last chapter From Vern... My last way off-topic wandering. Honest!! Continuing thoughts about the Earhart disappearance as vehicle for interdisciplinary teaching. A. A. Lovelace's program Ada's program doesn't much look like programs we see today, whether in Assembly language or some higher level language. But it's a series of steps each of which does a rather simple arithmetic operation -- adding two numbers, multiplying or dividing one by another, etc., and stores results in "memory" locations. In this case, "memory" is the position of number wheels rotated by the mechanism. The position of wheels can also be sensed mechanically. There has been a lot of argument about whether or not Ada really knew what she was about. But when I study her program, exactly as she published it, I see clear evidence that she intended the machine to loop back and run through certain parts of the sequence again. The iterative loop and the ability to change one or more variables each time through are at the very heart of computer programming today. At least two different people, at one time or another, have tried running Ada's program on modern computers -- and succeeded! It will run and compute correct results. It calculates the coefficients of a polynomial expression. A few years ago, my friend Merilee was doing a presentation for her daughter's 7th grade math classes at the end of each school term. She called it "Visual Math" and the idea was to show the kids that they really could do some of the same stuff the "scientists" do. She would set up several computers and she had some toys that demonstrated one thing or another. We thought the story of Lady Lovelace and her hundred year old computer program would interest the kids. We re-wrote ada's program in the BASIC computer language. We figured a few of the kids might know something about BASIC. If you write simple, one step at a time, instructions you can place the two programs side by side and see that each line of the programs are doing the same things. And you can run the BASIC program to compute as many of the coefficients of the polynomial as you wish. These are the so-called "Bernoulli Numbers" that can be found in mathematical tables. (This is not the Bernoulli who makes airplanes fly, This is that one's father. There were a lot of them, and most were mathematically inclined.) I don't know what the heck Bernoulli Numbers are, or what they're good for. I think they're something statisticians use. It was just something to demonstrate how the engine would be programmed. A century after the fact, a few people have remembered Ada and recognized her attempt to show what could be done. Some may have heard of the programming language called "Ada." That programming language is defined by government STD-1815. Ada Byron was born in 1815. She died in 1852 at the age of 37. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:41:25 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film >Making it more widely available is hampered by the fact that the entire >sequence is only about 30 seconds long. About 30 seconds... just the boarding sequence? I have the impression there is more on the film that was referenced relative to the "loosing the antenna" theory. Where to plane was parked, etc. Maybe there's nothing very interesting to see in the rest of it. I don't suppose there would be any possibility of getting the part that is interesting computer processed to improve it. They've done this with some of the old movies and got them better than the original ever was. I'm sure it would cost a bunch of money if one had to pay for the work. Still another thought... Could you get photographic prints, on paper, made from a few frames through the boarding sequence? Even I could do some digital processing of those! Can you see any good use for prints of this kind, or for JPEG files from such prints? *************************************************************** The entire film is only about 30 seconds long. The boarding sequence is maybe 10 seconds, the taxiing sequence about 10, and the takeoff about 10. I've checked with our website hosting company and it should be no problem to mount the entire 30 seconds on our website so that it's viewable and also downloadable. We'll get that process started next week. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:43:32 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Psitech web site I just love the scientific method of evaluating things. But betting is a lot of fun. I'll bet these guys don't have a full house between a dozen of them. Well, my remote viewing technique just kicked in and I see, I see, I sea, I c, I si', aye yi yi. You don't want to know what I see. Okay, you forced me to tell you. I see a bunch of people trying to get money to pay for their expensive and very weird life styles. Love To Mother, Dave Bush #2200 ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:54:51 EDT From: Jim Kelly Subject: garbling On a technical note; your [fascinating] note on the bones is filled with) equals signs [=], 2) numbers in the 90's [92, 93, 92 , etc.] and 3) one or two letters at the end of a line with word wrap problems. Not to be picky [and certainly not to cast aspersions on Macs, which I think you use] but I do read your stuff with more than a passing amount of interest. Also, from one of the past forums you mentioned that forensic photography may not be useful because of hairlines, etc.? Would it be accurate enough to determine if the skull would be of European descent or not? BTW, I was talking to a friend of mine from Janesville who was talking to a friend of his @ Parker Pen, and the discussion was about the 'fellow who was looking for Amelia Earhart' and measuring pens. My friend figured that it was me; not knowing anyone else who would take a day of vacation for such foolishness. LTM Jim Kelly 2085 *************************************************************** From Ric Sorry about the garbling. I don't know it happens unless someone tells me. Thanks. It happens when I write something in Word and then paste into over into AOL. I hate it when that happens. As for forensic imaging and hairlines - I'm not sure what the tolerances are. However, I expect to have some word on the modern evaluations of the bone measurements later this week. I do appreciate your Parker Pen research. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:02:36 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Psitech website > From Dick Strippel (Rgstrippel@AOL.COM) > 10/2/98 11:35 > > HI GANG- I JUST VISITED PSITECH (ED DASMES'S WEB SITE). I THINK > HE HAS A HELLUVA BETTE\R CHANCE OF FINDING THE WRECKAGE > THAN YOU GUYS DO. Why is that? Because he's got prettier pictures up? Because he's got a precise "X marks the spot" ? > AT LEAST HE SEEMS TO HAVE DONE MORE RESEARCH. Well, he's got some real pretty pictures up. Very impressive. But I don't see the "more research" indicated on the web site. Please indicate upon what you judge the "more research" part of your statement. As Dogbert points out in The Dilbert Principal, you can get a lot of mileage out of a great presentation, even if the data is garbage or missing. The (web) site is very impressive and certainly gives the impression that the author knows his stuff. However, anyone can put an X on a nicely printed map. What I'd have liked to see (and couldn't find on the web site, could've just been me, of course) was WHY he thinks the engine and wing are where he claims they are. At least I understand WHY TIGHAR thinks the plane got to Gardner. - Bill ************************************************************** From Ric I suspect Dick says stuff like that just to yank my chain. As for Ed Dames' research, the reason you can't find any on his website is because he hasn't done any. What he does is "technical remote viewing" which is just another way of saying "reading tea leaves." Dames is nothing more than the Psychic Friends Network packaged in hi-tech terminology. W.C. Fields had it right: "You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time - and that's enough to make a decent living." ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:12:05 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Psitech wreck site The Itasca visited the west side of Kuria Island at 1610 local time on 14 July 1937. A magistrate came out in a canoe and "said no information had been obtained of Earhart plane passing over from any of the natives in his group of islands consisting of the Kruia, Manouki and Apamama. This is precisely where the Itasca laid off of Kuria where the plane is currently being searched for. ************************************************************** From Ric I love it. Thanks Randy. It's also worth noting that the reason that the British began settling the islands of Phoenix Group about this time is that the Gilbert Islands had become grossly overpopulated. The only correction I'd offer to your comment is that no one is currently searching for the Earhart plane where the Psitech X is placed. Dames claims that he is mounting an expedition to go there and search this fall. If I had a nickel for every loudmouth with an Amelia Earhart theory who is about to mount an expedition to go find her, our funding woes would be over. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:17:04 EDT From: Vern Kelin Subject: Sextant boxes, again ... Searching for ideas Aside from the Canton Engine and the airplane itself, the sextant box found by Gallagher with that tantalizing number stenciled on it could establish an awfully solid tie between Fred Noonan and Gardner Island. I think it will be difficult to make as solid a tie to Amelia Earhart on the basis of the shoe parts, either those found by Gallagher or by TIGHAR. Assuming the sextant box was Noonan's, it may be that the numbers on it (3500 and 1542) are a connection to some ship, but I believe it more likely that they are a connection to Pan American Airlines. Are there any more avenues to explore in an attempt to discover whether Pam Am marked equipment with such numbers? TIGHAR has searched for sextants and boxes bearing numbers and found only one. That one does have a similar kind of number (3547), hand written -- and once belonged to Fred Noonan. I presume that search would have taken note of any bubble sextants that may have turned up as well as marine type sextants. There may be other things that would have been marked with numbers related to some kind of inventory system. Some such things may still exist somewhere, perhaps in some kind of collections. Maybe some people who were associated with Pan Am during the late 30s and early 40s are still around and might remember stuff being identified by such numbers. Does anyone have any thought about what to look for, or where to look, or who might be around who might remember something??? ************************************************************** From Ric When we were in San Carlos, Ca for our Earhart conference there, Pan Am veteran and TIGHAR member Bob Williams had an interesting comment on that subject. Tell 'em Bob. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:21:55 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Psitech site For Dick Strippel I just visited the Dames site as well. You say that "at least he seems to have done more research." Exactly what research would that be? The only information provided is an uncredited Al Breznik photo of AE sitting on the Electra and a couple of cutesy maps with labels like "presumed wing and engine locations." I'd love to debate you on this one, Dick, I really would...but there's no solid information, no reasoning, no basis for a logical discussion. You may recall, I once moved that the Forum always provide a thing called a "reason" when making definitive statements (a motion that was seconded several times). Mr. Dames couldn't live by this policy and chose to withdraw from our esteemed company. Real research involves more than a crystal ball or throwing a dart at the Rand-McNally. When you come up with any way to substantiate Psi-techs claims, I'm sure we'd all be happy to debate them further. Until then, let's try to stay on course. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:42:42 EDT From: Lew Bone Subject: New Zealand Survey Party O.K. I'll do what I can to track down the Survey party members or relatives. Let you know on progress as and when it develops. Lew B. ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Lew. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:51:20 EDT From: MontyBar Subject: bones and womans shoe Help me on this one please. I thought the womans shoe, sextant box, and bones were found on the far southeast end of the island by gallagher. The same place where you found a womans shoe sole a heel and a replacment heel that matches the sole. Now I read that you found the shoe parts inland from the lagoon on the southwestern side of the island. Also where is kanawa Point? Is kanawa Point that peninsula pointing south on the western end of the Lagoon? Montybar *************************************************************** From Ric Sorry for the confusion. Gallagher makes reference to the southeast end and also the southest shore. He also says that the site is near the lagoon shore. Where we found the shoe parts in 1991 was near the lagoon shore in a location which could be reasonably be described as the southeast shore but less so the "southeast end." Obviously, we don't know for sure where the heck he means. However, our current suspicion is that his discovery took place on the feature labeled "Kanawa Point" on the New Zealand Survey map. It's a small peninsula sticking out into the lagoon on the southwest part of the island. We'll write it up with maps and everything in the next TIGHAR Tracks. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:01:17 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT CLAIMING THIS IS THE LAE TAKEOFF. THE BACKGROUND (MOUNTAINS) DON'T LOOK LIKE THOSE SHOWN ON THE STILL PHOTOS FROM AUSTRALIAN CIVIL AVIATION. -TYPICAL TIGHAR LACK OF RESEARCH. ATB -- DICK *************************************************************** From Ric I haven't seen any photos from Australian Civil Aviation. I have seen still photos taken of the Earhart Electra taking off from Lae and the mountains are the same as in the film. I've also seen the disinctively New Guinea local folks in the film and I've seen that the departure end of the runway fits the runway at Lae which ends at the edge of Huon Gulf. If you have photos or information which document a reason to believe that the film is not what it is purported to be - produce it. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:05:10 EDT From: Jim W. Subject: PSI TECH/TRV There are ideas of mine expressed on this forum that have been bit by Ric, but I hope this is one that those who read the forum don't chew on too hard. This PSI TECH stuff from Ed Dames is a bit off track. Yes, it would be great if he could help solve the mystery of the loss of the Earhart/Noonan flight, but this guy is a 900 number. His relationship is PROFIT. This forum appears to have a higher level of conscienciousness and value standards than the Ed Dames crew. Dick Strippel for a free TIGHAR benefits? Hope his comments about PSI Tech are tongue in cheek. Also, am sending this message e-mail, esp will not do. Sure wish TRV worked, then my lost watch would be found. Jim W. *************************************************************** From Ric Dick Strippel has not responded to the offer of a sponsored membership. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:17:36 EDT From: Cameron Warren Subject: STRIPPEL REMARKS Dick is basically right - in his sometimes blunt way. All the really serious researchers have eventually realized that Fred/Amelia didn't survive much past 9 am on that fateful morning in July, 1937. The Marshall Islands/Saipan scenario has a lot more circumstantial evidence going for it than Gardner Island, but it doesn't hold up either. I know it's fun to put on your pith helmet and fearlessly lead yet another pseudo-scientific expedition to the island of your choice, but isn't it time you stopped flogging a long-dead horse? TIGHAR (read Randy Jacobson, primarily) has done a lot of really good research, and there is still more to be done, although the trail has gotten awfully cold. Here's a lead for you - Winslow Reef looks like dry ground from 1000 feet in the air. If Amelia tried to land there in a last desperate moment, the Electra may be only a short way down on the shoulder of the reef. I've been there but I'd like to check it out further. So sell a few T-shirts for me! Cam Warren ************************************************************** From Ric Gee Randy, what do you think? Should I retire that pith helmet I always wear and stop leading these pseudo-scientific expeditions to the island of our choice? I haven't looked at Winslow Reef from the air (as I guess Cam has), but I recall that you did look into the history of that elusive feature. ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:40:19 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Bone discovery analysis Your story sounds plausible...based upon the aerial photo evidence, where were the villagers working during this time? This might be the biggest clue to determining where the bones were. *************************************************************** From Ric An aerial mozaic taken by a plane deployed from USS Pelican on April 30, 1939 shows that clearing activity at that time was limited to the area which later encompassed the village. Kanawa Point and Aukaraime district (where we found the shoe parts) appear untouched. The next aerial photography we have dates from June 20, 1941. Unfortunately it's not another aerial mozaic of the entire atoll but a series of low oblique shots. The village area looks pretty much the same. The clearing there does appear to have been expanded, but the infrastructure is much improved (buildings, roads, etc.). It is also apparent that a great deal of clearing work has been done in Aukaraime district and even some property demarcation lines laid out, but if cocos have been planted they are not visible from the air. None of the photos taken at that time give us a good look at Kanawa Point, but later photography seems to indicate that while the Kanawa trees may have been harvested for lumber, the penisnula was never cleared and planted to coconuts. Our suspicion is that this may have had something to do with the site's identification with Nei Koata's supposed encounter with the goddess Nei Manganibuka and the subsequent designation of the spot a "Niurabo" - a place sacred to the goddess. We're quite sure from a description of that legend (by P.B. Laxton in his article "Nikumaroro" in the Journal of the Polynesian Society) that the encounter happened in this same location. Bottom line: the photos aren't a whole lot of help. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:44:05 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: Psitech website Ric wrote: > I suspect Dick says stuff like that just to yank my chain. Well, it did get a few of us to add our hits to the Dame's web site. > As for Ed Dames' research, the reason you can't find any on his website is > because he hasn't done any. What he does is "technical remote viewing" which > is just another way of saying "reading tea leaves." Dames is nothing more > than the Psychic Friends Network packaged in hi-tech terminology. Ach! I've been in this business (I program computers) for far too long. It didn't occur to me to wonder what the "Psi" in the company name meant. - Bill ************************************************************** From Ric Don't feel too badly. You're not the first or (sadly) the last to be sucked in. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:02:57 EDT From: MontyBar Subject: artifacts I agree ,the sextant box is probably about the hottest item found on the island that could be connected to Fred Noonan, unless the bones and sextant was from a castaway from the S.S. Norwich City are some where else. The finding of and reporting of a womans shoe is about the only thing that really supports a woman possibly being on the island prior to 1938. The bones of less of one skeleton were collected, and that seems to lean toward being male. What happened to the other skeleton? The natives mentioned the remains of a man and a woman, none native type. From this time till Gallagher collected the bones was a space of nearly a year. Wonder where the other skeleton is? If there was another skeleton. Was it buried? Sacked and thrown into the lagoon? Secretly carried off the island? Are maybe just left there to be scattered and lost in the vegetation , sand etc. I'm wondering , if they died of thirst depends on the amont of rainfall before and after their arrival. What is the weather like most of the time during July on niku? I doubt if they had much drink with them left on the plane. and searching the island for water in the heat wouldn't be long at all till they would really get thirsty. other articles that possibly could be found today that AE and FN might of had with them. A watch, pocket knife, most men carry pocket knives if nothing else to clean their finger nails are sharpen a pencil. How about a flash light? Battery powered light they sure would of used that at night if they had one. Natives are some one might of found some things but maybe not all. *************************************************************** From Ric Let's briefly review what we know - and what we don't know. We know: - that a skull and a bottle were found prior to Gallagher's arrival on the island in September 1940. - that the skull was buried. We don't know: - just when the skull and bottle were found and whether anything else was found at that time that Gallagher never knew about. - whether the skull was actually from the same body as the partial skeleton found later. We know: - that the partial skeleton found as a result of the search Gallagher mandated in 1940 and the exhumed skull were shipped off to Fiji along with the sextant box and the shoe sole. - that the skull and the other bones were examined by Dr. Hoodless in Fiji and judged to be those of a short, stocky, middle-aged male of European or mixed-race descent. - that the likelihood of the bones being those of a survivor of the 1929 Norwich City disaster is extremely remote. The 24 NC survivors were on the island 5 days awaiting rescue. All were taken off. We don't know - - whether the opinion of a colonial doctor in 1941, based upon his examination of a partial, badly damaged skeleton, was correct. We should have more information on that topic shortly. We know - - that island folklore consistently holds that two sets of bones - one male, one female - were found on the island. - that the available documentation describes the discovery of only one set of bones which were presumed to be from the same person. - that Gallagher says that he made a concerted but unsuccessful effort to find other objects at the site. We don't know - - what else may have been found that Gallagher didn't know about. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:13:23 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Psitech wreck site Ric wrote: > If I had a nickel for every loudmouth with an Amelia Earhart theory who is >about to mount an expedition to go find her, our funding woes would be over. Forget your next Niku expedition. Amelia is living with Wiley Post on Kodiak Island. It came to me in a (Jack Daniels-induced) dream. (hhmmm... I think I'll flesh out this story and send it to the Enquirer... might be worth a nickel or two). ;>) [and never mind what the great unwashed say about Mac-compatibility vis-a-vis the Internet. The only reason formatting problems crop up is because the majority of those who create Internet sites and software choose to ignore the far superior platform.] Tom #2179 Tom Robison *************************************************************** From Ric Mac an Toisch go bragh! (Scots Gaelic for "Macintosh forever!") LTM, Ridir Ghilleaspuig ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:19:50 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film Vern- Unfortunately, the original print of this historic film appears to have been lost. The EAA made a Beta transfer 10 or 15 years ago and incorporated the footage into their documentary on Buddy Brennan's Saipain trips entitled, "Witness to the Execution." When the antenna theory first came up, TIGHAR made a concerted effort to obtain the original film for evaluation. We were told that was in the possession of an elderly member of the 99s. She was very ill at the time and our efforts came to naught. As far as we know, it's still in her basement somewhere - if it hasn't been thrown away. EAA was kind enough to lend us their master copy and Jeff Glickman was able to work enough magic to see that the antenna is there when parked and missing on take-off. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ P.S. So Dick, I guess EAA and the 99s never do any research either. How about those "Australian Civil Aviation photos?" *************************************************************** From Ric The story is actually even weirder than that. The 99s had the film plus a bunch of other Earhart film that they loaned to EAA. the only film that EAA used was the takeoff film. The rest was sent back to the 99s and duly receipted. The takeoff film disappeared sometime after EAA dubbed it off onto Beta. EAA says they returned it to the 99s. The 99s say they never got it back. There is a possibility that it went to a former president of the 99s (the elderly lady) who later died and her resentful son then auctioned off her aviation memorabilia. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:23:29 EDT From: Suzanne Tamiesie Subject: Psitech I have to admit I got a good chuckle when I went to the Psitech site on Friday after reading Dick's email. I heard from long ago the voice of Sr. Paul Francis, my 7th grade teacher, summarily dismissing any student efforts which were not backed up by research and "showing how you came to your conclusion". Suzanne Tamiesie #2184 ************************************************************* From Ric Pity that Sister Paul couldn't have a chat with Dick Strippel. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:29:12 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Winslow Reef Cam Warren wrote: >Here's a lead for you - Winslow Reef looks like dry ground from 1000 > feet in the air. If Amelia tried to land there in a last desperate > moment, the Electra may be only a short way down on the shoulder of the > reef. I've been there but I'd like to check it out further. I wrote an article for EOS, Transactions of the American Geophysical Union regarding the search for Winslow Reef by the pilots of the Colorado planes. They searched three separate times in the right area (based upon satellite geodetic maps (these maps based upon gravity anomalies which are quite good for finding subsurface islands). By carefully reconstructing the flight paths, I am quite sure they flew in the right areas, but they did not see anything. Why? The reef is now known to be below sea level except in unusual sea conditions (low tide, high swell/sea state) that would expose breaking water on the reef. Based upon contemporaneous seastate and weather info, the Colorado pilots had nearly perfect seeing conditions, and did not find it; ergo, the Winslow Reef is under water. AE would have had similar difficulties finding it; even if she did, she would not attempt to land. ************************************************************** From Ric Perhaps Cam would favor us with an account of just when and how it was that he visited Winslow Reef? ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:10:02 EDT From: Marty Joy Subject: A Strippel Anthology I think your letting Dick get to you, it's obvious he is just jerking your chain, lighten up and place Mr. Stripple where he belongs, an amusing break from all the antenna / Noonan ancestors talk, on and on ad nauseum. Marty Joy 0724C ************************************************************** From Ric Taking Marty's advice, the following are Dick's offerings to the forum for today: On the Lae takeoff film - "Too many interesting thing, Vern (a) the mountains are 'wrong,(B)" there's water on the field (witnesses agree it was (DUSTY). (C) THERE'S NO 'BUMP' AT THE END OF THE STRIP. TO ME :IT'S NOT LAE." (Note from Ric: When we get the film up on the website I'd like to know if anyone else sees "water on the strip." I see no water. I see dust.) ***************************** Commenting on Cam Warren's posting - YOUR LAST SENTENCE DESCRIBES RIC AND TIGHAR PERFECTLY--LIVING ON O.P.M. OTHER PEOPLES' MONEY TO SUPPORT THEIR LIFESTYLE! ******************************* Commenting on Jim Kelly's posting about his research trip to Parker Pen - << who would take a day of vacation for such foolishness. >> my thoughts exactly!!!!!!!!!! GET A LIFE! -DICK ************************************************* Commenting on Russ Matthews posting about the Psitech site: <> HIS TEXT SHOWS HE UNDERSTANDS THE FLIGHT BETTER !!! --DICK ************************************************** Responding to my posting about the lae takeoff film - <> Frank Holbrook's US Naval Institute PROCEEDINGS ARTICLE . SOMETHING YOU PEOPLE NEVER READ, I'LL BET (Note from Ric: You'd lose that bet. You're referring to the February 1971 article. It has one photo of the Electra on takeoff from Lae. There is a mountain in the background partially enshrouded by mist. What appears to be the same mountain is visible in another still photo alleged to be of the final takeoff (but which I strongly suspect was taken of the takeoff for the test flight on July 1st). There is only one mountain and it is opposite the approach or inland end of the runway. The takeoff film was taken from near the departure or seaward end of the runway and doesn't pick up the airplane until it is well into the takeoff run and so does not show the mountain. What it does show is the same runway bordered by the same line of trees and with the same misty conditions in the background.) *************************************************************** And, finally, responding to my question - << Should I retire that pith helmet I always wear and stop leading these pseudo-scientific expeditions to the island of our choice?>> yes, yes ********************************************* Thus endeth today's offerings from Mr. Strippel. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:12:25 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: garbling >Sorry about the garbling. I don't know it happens unless someone tells me. >Thanks. It happens when I write something in Word and then paste into over >into AOL. I hate it when that happens. Very strange... I don't see the garbling. It must have to do with the E-mail server and/or the E-mail software as well as the source document pasted. I'm running an IBM/DOS kind of machine and Windows 3.1 (Yeah, I know, but it's been good enough). I do E-mail with Eudora Lite. I think that, One way or another, the text pasted needs to be a straight ASCII file. Not a Word formatted file. But I don't know how you get that done with the Mac and the software you're using. ======================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:20:40 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Bone discovery analysis Re. coco planting on Kanawa Point: a photo I took during our brief inspection of the point in '89 shows a coconut palm in the background. This doesn't mean much, since cocos have doubtless spread beyond the original plantings, but it does raise questions about whether Kanawa Point was planted. I can't recall seeing any evidence of planting, but we weren't looking for such evidence. Re. KP as the location identified by Laxton as the site of Koata's wife's vision, I'd say we're about 75% sure. Laxton describes the village and its environs in terms of a walk that he takes, starting at the Rest House and proceeding in what seems like a sort of counterclockwise direction, eventually proveeding southeast from the village and passing the site of the Ghost Maneaba vision. Kanawa Point fits into the sequence of places he mentions in the course of this walkabout, and it has shallow coves on either side that resemble the fish ponds he describes being at the GM site. So I'd say the KP- GM equation is pretty good, but I'm certainly not positive of it. LTM Tom King ************************************************************* From Ric The cocos in the distance in your photo appear to be quite young. The question is whether they sprouted from nuts dropped from an alder planting in that location or from nuts that washed up from the lagoon shore. The remnants of the old stumps of the long-dead trees of the original planting are still detectable down on Aukaraime. If Kanawa Point was ever planted we should be able to find similar evidence there. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:45:27 EDT From: JJJ Subject: Re: Federal Standard Color # 12197 First, let me apologise for doubting your color selection. FS # 12197 it is. I was under the misunderstanding that the owner of the piece of AE's electra would not give TIGHAR access to it. Bravo to you and TIGHAR and thank you, thank you, thank you. You have provided me, any many others, with one more of the many missing pieces of detail regarding this aircraft. Another thought, if you don't mind. Another one of many books and/or articles I have read regarding AE, and anyone associated with her, came to mind after my last E-mail. Paul Mantz, AE's technical advisor, puportedly handled all of the modifications and preparations of the L-10. From what I have read about him he was a fastidious record keeper. After his death his FBO, somewhere in California, was gradually shut down and all of his records and memoriabilia were donated to one of the museums out there. I think it was the same museum that has the Spruce Goose, but I can't remember for sure. I'm trying to find the article where all this was discussed. Here is the point. Somewhere in Mantz's records may be the details of every nut, bolt, rivit, radio, wire, paint, etc. Has anyone ever looked into this possibility? Just a thought. If you plan on doing a special edition of the TIGHAR publication re. the L-10 NR16020, I would very much like to contribute my ideas on what kinds of details should be depicted, discussed, and or provided in diagrams, e.g. an overhead plan view of the aircraft showing the paint demarcation lines and Reg. # location. Thanks again for the attention to detail, and not accepting anything less than "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." Please let me know if I exceed 30 degrees of bank! LTM J.J.J. ************************************************************* From Ric No apology necessary. We should always be able to cite our sources. Mantz's papers ended up at the EAA Museum in Oshkosh. When the boxes arrived a few years ago, a TIGHAR volunteer was right there. Alas, no Earhart or Electra -related material was present. Puzzling. Mantz was heavily involved with Earhart's first world flight attempt, but much less so for the second attempt. He didn't even know she was leaving for Miami until after she had left. I'd be happy to have your suggestions about what kind of NR16020 details would be of the most interest to modelers. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:47:37 EDT From: Bob Subject: Re: Sextant Boxes Again To: Vern, TIGHAR Member 2124 When I first saw a picture of the Pensacola Sextant Box, I did a double back flip! It was spooky! The box was identical to the standard instrument box that Pan Am made, and used until the day they went out of business, for keeping all delicate instruments. On the older boxes, this included the same type of hardware on the box and the dove tail corners. The serial number of the instrument inside was also either written on the top of the box in black ink?, or stenciled on with black paint. It confirmed, in my mind, that the Pan Am pilot who had donated the sextant and box to the museum was telling the truth when he said that he got it on loan from Noonan when he took a navigation course from him. I don't think it was Noonan's personal property but was owned by Pan Am. I doubt that Noonan would have loaned anyone his personal sextant. Especially a pilot! Could it be the sextant and box found on Nikumaroro had been loaned to Noonan by Pan Am for his trip with Earhart, or could it be Noonan had "borrowed" it from Pan Am when he had been instructing navigation? Love To Mother Bob ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:52:57 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film Aren't there supposed to be records of estate auctions for legal purposes? It may be possible to determine who, if anyone, purchased the film in question. Best Wishes to All, ----Gene Dangelo 2211(Love that number!) *************************************************************** From Ric Except this was apparently more like a garage sale. And, of course, we have no idea whether the old lady had the film in the first place. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:17:36 EDT From: Tom King Subject: How many bodies? >Re: We know - >- that island folklore consistently holds that two sets of bones - one male, >one female - were found on the island. It's pure speculation, but I wonder if the "male and female skeletons" story arises from the attribution of two different sexes to the same set of bones at two different times. The bones are thought by Gallagher to be maybe female, then Isaac and Hoodless decide they're male, and the way the word of this gets garbled in transmission to the colonists is that there are two bodies, one male, one female. Again, pure speculation, but I don't think we need to assume the discovery of two skeletons based on the two-body stories. Love to Mother Tom King ************************************************************** From Ric But then there's Bauro Tikana, who says that he was Gallagher's clerk and interpreter in 1940. Bauro says (in a fax to me dated August 12, 1991): "When we first arrived (in 1940) I saw the shipwreck and asked Mr. Gallagher about it. He told me that it was the Norwich City. Later when the laborers were cleaning (clearing the bush) they told me they found bones near the ship. I do not know if Mr. Gallagher knew about the bones as I didn't tell him about it. The laborers also told me they found bones on the other end of the atoll when they were cleaning the land in that area. I don't believe Mr. Gallagher knew of these as he was the only white man there and most of the laborers didn't speak English and were afright (sic) to talk to him and Mr. Gallagher didn't speak Gilbertese. I did all the interpreting for Mr. Gallagher and pass on all his instructions to the laborers." Okay, so Bauro's info is a bit shaky. But if bones were found near the shipwreck, the question is whose bones were they? And how near is near? The Norwich City survivors buried the three bodies that washed up while they were there. It's possible that later storms uncovered one of those graves or that one of the other eight men lost in the disaster washed up unnoticed. However, especially because the reports of airplane wreckage seen on the reef and shoreline describe the same general part of the island as the shipwreck, the possibility remains that the "other" set of bones was the other crew member of the Electra. It's worth noting that the New Zealand survey party did not report finding any bones in that area (or anywhwere else) in late '38/early '39. Bauro says that the bones on Nutiran (near the shipwreck) were found "later" (after his arrival with Gallagher in 1940). LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:24:23 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: A Strippel Anthology >HIS [Ed Dames of Psi-tech] TEXT SHOWS HE UNDERSTANDS THE FLIGHT BETTER !!! Two questions Dick. 1. Specifically, what portions of the text are you referring to? 2. What text? >YOUR [Cam Warren] LAST SENTENCE DESCRIBES RIC AND TIGHAR PERFECTLY--LIVING >ON O.P.M. OTHER PEOPLES' MONEY TO SUPPORT THEIR LIFESTYLE! Funny how the people who complain of TIGHAR using O.P.M. (Other People's Money) are never the people who actually give money. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:27:01 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Serious Research Cameron Warren wrote: >All the really serious researchers have eventually realized that >Fred/Amelia didn't survive much past 9 am on that fateful morning >in July, 1937. I beg to differ. I'm a researcher (seriously) and have yet to come to this realization. I don't even own a pith helmet. Ric has obviously not realized it yet either. He gave up a good job to spend the last 13 years researching aviation history is general and the Earhart disappearance in particular. How can you get more serious than that? Why are we (and others like us) so dense? Maybe it's prolonged exposure to diesel fumes and concertina music...or maybe it's because serious research has uncovered the evidence to back up our claims. Within days of the disappearance, both Eric Chater (General Manager for Guinea Airways based in Lae) and James Collopy (Superintendent for Civil Aviation in Lae) submitted written reports stating that NR16020 departed for Howland carrying 1,100 U.S gallons of fuel. When applied to fuel consumption tables prepared in late February 1937 (by none other than legendary Lockheed designer Kelly Johnson) the Earhart Electra could be expected to remain aloft for 24 hours and 9 minutes - giving Amelia/Fred a four hour fuel reserve as of 9am on that fateful morning in July, 1937. Any serious researcher must concede that the two lost aviators survived past the stroke of nine with enough fuel to reach land on their last reported Line of Position - land such as Gardner Island or even Winslow Reef. Wouldn't you agree, Cameron, or are you not "serious?" LOVE TO MOTHER Russ ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:29:54 EDT From: Hugh Graham Subject: Re: A Strippel Anthology To Ric: > Thus endeth today's offerings from Mr. Strippel. > Love to mother, > Ric -----It takes a mighty big man to accept constant criticism, but it keeps you honest. Better than a Yes-Man. regards, HAGraham 2201 ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:34:39 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Experiment Hey Gang, I'd like to conduct an experiment to see which Earhart Forum subscribers may possess genuine psychic abilities. Polish up your crystal balls and tell us what excuse you predict Ed Dames will use to explain his inability to pinpoint the wreckage of Earhart's plane. I'm going to go with "blaming hi-tech search gear." What do you think? We'll watch the Psi-Tech web site to see who among you has ESP, and who is SOL. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ **************************************************************** From Ric Dionne Warwick appeared to me in a dream and said that our experiment should be to see who can predict what excuse Dames will use for not going out to look at all. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:37:24 EDT From: Bill Leary Subject: Re: A Strippel Anthology > Commenting on Russ Matthews posting about the Psitech site: > >>But I don't see the "more research" indicated on the web site. Please >>indicate upon what you judge the "more research" part of your statement. > >HIS TEXT SHOWS HE UNDERSTANDS THE FLIGHT BETTER !!! --DICK Actually, that was me. And I don't see that either. - Bill ************************************************************** From Ric Ooooops! Sorry. (Typical TIGHAR lack of research again.) ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:09:11 EDT From: Cameron Warren Subject: VISITING WINSLOW REEF My partner and I chartered a schooner out of Honolulu (met it at Tarawa) in July, 1992, specifically to look for Winslow Reef, which at the time, was still only vaguely located in the literature (Defense Mapping Agency "Sailing Directions for the Pacific Islands, 4th Ed. - 1992", British Admiralty charts, the highly accurate Batholomew maps, etc. etc.). The reef WAS correctly located on DMA Jet Navigation Chart JNC-73, and ONC M-17, as confirmed on the surface by GPS. About 6 fathoms underwater at the shallowest spot, sand clearly visible from the surface and presumably more so from the air (on a clear day, naturally). (We plotted everything carefully, and made a copy for the British). No metal detected with a magnetometer. Randy assumes any wreckage would be visible from the air, but not if it had fallen down the steep side of the sea mount. Dr. Walter Smith of NOAA said it was extremely unlikely the reef ever caused any white water and no volcanic action ever reported this location since records kept. [This a summary off the top of my head - I can send a copy of my written report if anyone really cares]. Incidentally, we never saw another soul or ship until we got a few miles from Hawaii. Except a "mystery" helicopter that suddenly appeared over the Reef, bearing (in large letters) the initials "WGBH". A TIGHAR film crew? Turns out the craft was registered to a tuna clipper out of San Diego. Finally, you might be interested to know Dick Strippel wrote a second book (unpublished, apparently) in 1994. Excellent job - I only disagree on a few very minor technical (electronic) points. I got a copy from another source - he's never owned up to it. Why, I don't know, since it contains first class (really "scientific") research. Cam Warren ************************************************************** From Ric Okay, so let me get this straight. You say that "All the really serious researchers have eventually realized that Fred/Amelia didn't survive much past 9 am on that fateful morning in July, 1937." Now - Winslow Reef is a good 150 nautical miles or more from anywhere near Howland. The Electra's best economical cruise speed was 130 kts. In order to reach Winslow Reef the most optimistic scenario would require her to still be aloft a full hour after the time you say really serious researchers realize she went down. At least this is something we can agree on. You're not a serious researcher. You then say, "Winslow Reef looks like dry ground from 1000 feet in the air. If Amelia tried to land there in a last desperate moment, the Electra may be only a short way down on the shoulder of the reef." But then you say that the reef is, "About 6 fathoms underwater at the shallowest spot, sand clearly visible from the surface." Are you seriously suggesting that a sand bar 36 feet underwater can be mistaken for dry ground from 1000 feet in the air? Now granted, I'm no authority. I only have about 4,000 hours of pilot-in-command time, most of it in singles and twins down close to the ground. I'd be interested to know if any of our really high time pilots on the forum, many of whom have experience out in the Pacific, have ever mistaken shallow water for dry ground. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:27:28 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Lae takeoff film << how about those "Australian Civil Aviation photos?>> THERE'S ONLY ONE I KNOW OF BUT THEY MUST HSVER MORE- IT WAS IN FRANK HOLBROOK'S NAVAL INSTITUTE PROCEEDINGS. I BELIEVE WHAT YOY SAY IS THE LAe takeoff was actually filmed at CARIPITO, VENEZUELA. N.A.S.M. HAS MANY B & W PRINTS OF THAT. THE MOUNTAINS LOOK BETTER THAN ON YOURS--- SORRY --DICK *************************************************************** From Ric No for an apology. A simple explanation of what a group of classic, bushy-haired New Guinea tribesmen were doing in Venezuela would be sufficient. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:35:25 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: Bone discovery analysis >The question is whether they sprouted from nuts dropped from an alder >planting in that location or from nuts that washed up from the lagoon shore. Surely you meant "elder" coconut trees, rather than alder trees. **************************************************************** From Ric Sorry. What I meant to say was "older coconut planting." (Your dedication is moving, but at four 'clock in the morning you're busting my chops about typos? Go to bed Randy.) ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:54:20 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Lae Movie Film >(Note from Ric: You'd lose that bet. You're referring to the February 1971 >article. It has one photo of the Electra on takeoff from Lae. There is a >mountain in the background partially enshrouded by mist. What appears to be >the same mountain is visible in another still photo alleged to be of the final >takeoff (but which I strongly suspect was taken of the takeoff for the test >flight on July 1st). There is only one mountain and it is opposite the >approach or inland end of the runway. The takeoff film was taken from near >the departure or seaward end of the runway and doesn't pick up the airplane >until it is well into the takeoff run and so does not show the mountain. What >it does show is the same runway bordered by the same line of trees and with >the same misty conditions in the background.) the thick plottens .JUST ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING YOU NEVER SAW HOLBROOK'S ARTICLE ************************************************************* From Ric I hate to break the news, but it wasn't a big deal. You said that the photo you're talking about is in Holbrook's old Proceeding's article. I turned around to the filing cabinet beside my desk and pulled out the article (we've had it for years), looked at the picture, compared it to other photos taken at Lae and to the film, saw immediately what gave you the erroneous impression concerning the mountain, and wrote a response. The whole thing took maybe ten minutes. ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:57:38 EDT From: Cameron Warren Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF You misinterpret my remarks - unscientifically. I suggested Winslow Reef, casually, as an equally valid - if not more so - possibility along with Nikumaroro. As to fuel consumption, that's not my area of expertise - talk to Elgen Long, et al. Incidentally, Kelly Johnson (in his book) was firmly convinced AE/FN went to the bottom, and I'd consider him a pretty good source. Besides, all the answers are in Max Collins' "Flying Blind. ************************************************************** From Ric Oh. Moving right along... ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:47:28 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Bone sources Well, as to bones on any island or beach anywhere in the world, it is always possible that some hapless soul fell overboard and their body washed ashore someplace else, so I don't see that the mere reporting of bones tell us their origin unless there is other evidence uncovered with them that positively identifies them. Also, are there any records to indicate the disappearance of any person(s) in this part of the Pacific? Did people sail their own yachts on long distances across the Pacific during this period? What unregistered ships (ie pirates) might be sailing these parts? That's a lot of questions that we probably cannot answer and thus the bones will need to be found and positively analyzed as either being Fred or Amelia or not being either one. Anything less than that is pure speculation and of no value except to keep us guessing. LTM, Dave Bush #2200 *************************************************************** From Ric Good questions. When dealing with artifacts or human remains there is always a temptation to throw up our hands and say, "It could be anything or anyone!" But it can't. Nikumaroro is a very remote place and contact with the island has been relatively well documented. We can say quite a bit about probabilities but, as you say, conclusive ID relies on having the actual bone. Yacht activity in the Central Pacific in the 1930s was not common but neither was it nonexistent. Our best sources have been periodicals such as Pacific Islands Monthly which was (and still is) a news magazine for the Central Pacific region, and newspapers in Fiji and New Zealand. While the press did not necessarily report every private sailing venture in the area, it did report even minor mishaps and accidents, as well as any other newsworthy events from the various island groups. Any kind of shipwreck or disappearance was very big news. There is no mention of pirates. The bottom line is that the available sources don't provide any unaccounted- for bodies of white folks in the Pacific anywhere near Gardner Island between 1929 and 1940 other than the eight Norwich City crew members whose bodies were not found and a couple of American fliers who never showed up at Howland Island. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:03:36 EDT From: Dave Bush Subject: Re: Sextant Boxes Again >When I first saw a picture of the Pensacola Sextant Box, I did a double back >flip! It was spooky! The box was identical to the standard instrument box >that Pan Am made, and used until the day they went out of business, for >keeping all delicate instruments. On the older boxes, this included the same >type of hardware on the box and the dove tail corners. The serial number of >the instrument inside was also either written on the top of the box in black >ink?, or stenciled on with black paint. It confirmed, in my mind, that the >Pan Am pilot who had donated the sextant and box to the museum was telling the >truth when he said that he got it on loan from Noonan when he took a >navigation course from him. I don't think it was Noonan's personal property >but was owned by Pan Am. I doubt that Noonan would have loaned anyone his >personal sextant. Especially a pilot! Could it be the sextant and box found >on Nikumaroro had been loaned to Noonan by Pan Am for his trip with Earhart, >or could it be Noonan had "borrowed" it from Pan Am when he had been >instructing navigation? You state that these were standard Pan Am Sextant Boxes. What is your source? Do you know of any existing records listing these sextants and who had possession of them? Most companies keep a list by serial number of equipment issued to employees or other personnel. Therefore, it should be a simple matter to match the serial number to the individual proving beyond a doubt that the sextand box found on Niku by the Brits was Freds and that is the smoking gun that we are looking for. With that info we should be able to find complete funding for a complete effort to locate all artifacts left on Niku. LTM Dave Bush #2200 **************************************************************** From Ric Bob did not say these were "standard Pan Am Sextant Boxes." He said that the older Pan Am instrument boxes he was familiar with looked just like the box which contains the Pensacola sextant. His source is personal experience during a long career with Pan Am. In other words, his information is anecdotal. You're absolutely correct that to turn it into hard evidence we would need to match the Pensacola box and the numbers on the box found by Gallagher to Pan Am records. Unfortunately, making such a match is not the simple matter you presume it to be. Pan American is, of course, bankrupt and out of business. A collection of company paperwork is archived at the University of Miami. It does not appear to include any accounting information about company equipment, how it was inventoried and controlled, or to whom it was signed out. One of the most common and, regrettably, unwarranted assumptions is that large corporations maintain good historical records. In our experience, rare indeed is the company that can give you detailed information about it's activities of ten years ago, let alone sixty. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:13:13 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Late night Foruming >Your dedication is moving, but at four 'clock in the morning you're busting >my chops about typos? Go to bed Randy. Actually, I just arose, due to my inability to sleep 'cause I want to read the latest forum postings! ************************************************************** From Ric Now I feel all guilty. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:28:15 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF To Cam Warren ALTHOUGH YOU MENTION HIM, - IT SURE LOOKS LIKE YOU NEVER READ RANDY'S PAPER/ARTICLE ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:33:20 EDT From: Jim Kelly Subject: Re: Strippel anthology A mention by Dick Strippel! Is that the same thing the British used to use "mentioned in dispatches"? Can I put a letter behind my member no.? The trip to Janesville was fun for me and the good folks at Parker Pen seemed to enjoy it; so there must be a place for foolishness in this world. LTM Jim Kelly 2085 ************************************************************** From Ric Note that I have added the letters CBS to your member number, signifying that you have joined the hallowed corps of TIGHARs who have been Castigated By Strippel. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:38:10 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Experiment >Dionne Warwick appeared to me in a dream and said that our experiment should >be to see who can predict what excuse Dames will use for not going out to >look at all. And the answer to that is easy. Lack of funding because TIGHAR siphoned off all the money and poisoned the minds of potential donors. *************************************************************** From Ric Funding. Is that another word for Other People's Money (O.P.M.)? LTM ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:44:45 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF Ric -- seems to me you're being a bit hard on Cam. I'd like to see his full report, anyhow. LTM Tom King *************************************************************** From Ric Sorry, sorry. Lost my head. A thousand pardons. We must keep an open mind and respect all viewpoints. Yes, we should definitely look at Cam's report if he is willing to share it with us. The mailing address is: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 Or if he can send it as an attached email file we'll make it available (unedited and without comment) to any forum subscriber who would like to see it. ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:47:22 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Experiment Russ wrote: >Polish up your crystal balls and tell us >what excuse you predict Ed Dames will use to explain his inability to pinpoint >the wreckage of Earhart's plane. and Ric replied >Dionne Warwick appeared to me in a dream and said that our experiment should >be to see who can predict what excuse Dames will use for not going out to >look at all. And I reply: Back some time last year, when *El Nino" was all the talk, some whacko (er, excuse me, "scientist") claimed that the cause for the rapid rise in temperature in the central Pacific was due to extra-terrestrials who were using that area as a base of earth operations. Their constant entry into and exit from the sea in that area was boiling the water locally, which of course spread out and heated the whole ocean. Could this "base of operations" be the same spot where Mr. Dames is proposing to look for AE? Does Mr. Dames perhaps have cousins living nearby? Maybe he's really going out to look for a ride home. (This is beginning to sound a little like "Men in Black"... I'd better quit. Tom ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:32:15 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Dem Bones I expect it to turn out that Drs. Isaac and Hoodless were right about the bones. They were probably those of a male polynesian, possibly of mixed descent, possibly stocky, possibly middle-aged. There may be a connection to the grave of the infant. The natives know of no infant being buried in such a place. All of this may be nothing more than evidence of a small tragedy that was played out on a tiny atoll in the South Pacific well over half a century ago. Hundreds of small tragedies occur every day unnoticed by the world. Only the person whose bones those were knew, no one else will ever know. It appears that some person, perhaps with an infant, became stranded on the island, and perished there. We'll never know why this person was out among the Phoenix Islands in a small boat. A storm is the most likely thing to have resulted in his ending up stranded on the island. If the infant was with him, it may have been drowned during the storm. It may have already been dead, and may have had something to do with him being out there. The man survived and may have buried the small body wherever he could. Might it have been a family that was caught in the storm on their way, wherever? Was there a woman? A woman who wore shoes? Natives didn't were shoes -- at least most did not. Gallagher's "part of shoe sole?" Maybe. Shoes with "Cat's Paw" replacememt heels?? I don't believe that. Those must belong in a different tragedy. Legend has it that there were two skeletons, one male and one female. There may be other bones somewhere on the island -- if there is anything left of them. If they were there, nobody found them. But no bones found does not mean that Amelia and Fred were not there. How about a new scenario for the sextant box and the Benedictine bottle? These are both "useful containers." The castaway may have picked them up anywhere on the island. Or he may have brought one, or both, with him from whatever island he came from. Bruce Yoho found an engine, but he doesn't remember the hulk of the Norwich City. Maybe the sextant box came from the same island where Bruce picked up the engine. Benedictine bottles may seem unlikely in that part of the world but there were Europeans roaming about. The bottle would be real handy for drinking water and the castaway would certainly have hung on to it. The sextant box may have contained something considered to be of great value and was also hung on to with tenacity. Or it may have been picked up on Gardner for whatever use a handy box might be. In any case, if it is somehow concluded that the bones could not be either Amelia or Fred -- the height estimate by Dr. Hoodless certainly seems indicate that they could not be either -- then we can stop trying to find what became of the bones! But it would sure be nice to have that sextant box in hand! *************************************************************** From Ric That rumbling sound you hear is William of Occam rolling over in his grave. I'm sure that most of us are familar with Occam's Razor - "non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem" (literally: "entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity" or "the simplest explanation which accounts for all the facts is the most likely to be true"). Here we have a rather complete scene described by Gallagher which he interprets to be the site of Amelia Earhart's last stand. His superiors dismiss that interpretation based upon the forensic medical opinions available at the time. They cannot (as far as we know) explain the woman's shoe or the sextant box. Based upon our knowledge that campfire we found is relatively modern origin, we now strongly suspect that the site (near the infant grave) where we found our shoe parts is not the same place where Gallagher found his shoe parts. The infant grave, therefore, would seem to be - well - the grave of an infant. There is nothing to connect it to Gallagher's discovery. Remember also that Hoodless and Isaac disagree about the individual's ethnic origin. Isaac says Polynesian. Hoodless says probably European or mixed-race but not Polynesian. In fact, Gallagher's discovery looks entirely plausible as being just what he thought it was except for the forensic anthropological opinions of two doctors, neither of whom was a forensic anthropologist. That's why we've been so intent upon getting some good 1998 science laid on these bone measurements. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:06:22 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Lae takeoff film >group of classic, bushy-haired New Guinea tribesmen were doing in Venezuela >would be sufficient. where are they????? --dick *************************************************************** From Ric As an old friend of mine would say, "The thick plottens." You haven't seen the whole film! All you've seen is the edited snippit used in the TV documentaries. (You see Dick, it's important not to rely upon secondary sources. You have go to the original sources. You have to do your research.) The film starts with some scenes around the parked Electra with Earhart and Noonan busily getting into and out of the airplane as make preparations to leave. Then there's a brief scene of the parked airplane head-on where it looks just as if somebody said to the local on-lookers "Say, why don't you blokes go and stand in front of the ship and I'll take your picture?" I count about fourteen black men with bushy hair, most of whom are wearing only baggy shorts or lavalavas. Then there are more scenes of AE and FN climbing up the wing and in through the cockpit hatch, the flapping of their trouser legs indicating that the engines are running. Then the airplane taxis past the cameraman (and in reviewing the film to make sure I wasn't imagining the New Guinea guys, I note that your mountain is right there in the background.) The next seen is the roughly 10 second takeoff sequence which picks up the airplane from about, I would guess, a third of the way down the runway. When we mount the film on our website we will, of course, put up the whole thing. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:18:18 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Dem Bones While agreeing entirely with Ric's response to Vern's post on this subject, let me just add something in response to Vern's comment that "There may be a connection to the grave of the infant. The natives know of no infant being buried in such a place." We have no idea what the "natives" (i.e. the I Kiribati colonists) knew or didn't know about the infant grave, since nobody to our knowledge asked them and recorded their responses, but it's worth noting that the grave is unusual only in its location. There are lots of more or less similar graves in the village area, and as far as I know there's no record of them, either. People lived on the island, people died on the island, people buried people on the island, and in a traditional I Kiribati manner, they appear to have buried on land owned by the families to which the deceased belonged. I suspect that the infant was the child of a family that had been assigned rights to Aukaraime and was looking toward establishing residence there. As for the notion that the infant was the child of some castaway who ended up as Gallagher's bones, it's not very likely unless the castaway was a traditional I Kiribati. The grave is an entirely traditional I Kiribati grave, with standing coral slabs at head and foot and smaller slabs along the sides forming a low platform, just like those in the village. I can't see a basis for associating the grave and the bones found in '39. Actually, I think it's very unlikely that the grave was even there before the early '40s when Aukaraime was cleared for planting and potential residence. Tom King Project Archeologist ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:00:57 EDT From: unknown Subject: bones >You do have good evidence that bones were found, but no bones or >measurements that I have seen. For those who are interested in determining >sex and racial origins of bone, look at this site: >http://medstat.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo/forensics/for-frames.html sorry about the typo. The site is: http://medstat.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo/forensics/for frames.html ************************************************************** From Ric We do indeed have measurements but no bones (yet). The measurements are contained in the notes of the British doctor who examined the bones in 1941. They were published in the last issue of TIGHAR Tracks. I couldn't get either URL you gave to come up. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:03:52 EDT From: Sam Ginder Subject: Re: Winslow Reef I have several waterfront plots for sale on Winslow reef. Great ocean view, reasonable down payment, easy financing. Great get-away location with all sorts of privacy for you and that certain someone. Sam Ginder (2180) ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:54:44 EDT From: Joel Dunlap Subject: Norwich City I keep seeing references to the Norwich City. I don't remember hearing the whole story. Can you reissue that story and details or is there some place where I find that info? Thanks. LTM Joel Dunlap 2183 *************************************************************** From Ric On the night of Friday, November 29, 1929 the steamer S.S. Norwich City made an unscheduled stop at Gardner Island. She was under the ownership of the Reardon Smith Line, Captain Daniel Hamer, Master, and about halfway on her run from Melbourne to Honolulu to pick up a cargo bound for Vancouver. With empty holds, the freighter's 397 foot length was riding high, especially at the bow, and her 53.5 foot beam rolled with the heavy swell. Amidships her 412 H.P. oil-fueled, triple-expansion steam engine was serviced by nine Arab firemen, while topside a crew of four officers and 22 British seamen completed the ship's company. Her keel had been laid in Hartlepool, England in 1911 and she was registered out of Bideford in 1919 as ship no. 132596, gross tonnage 5,587 on the Mercantile Navy List. According to the testimony of Henry Lott of Folkestone, England, Second Officer, given at a Naval Court held December 9, 1929, in Apia, Samoa: *********** The first thing I knew was at 5 past 11 there was a crash and the vessel went up on the reef. I jumped off the settee in my room, went outside, and returned and put on some clothes. I went straight to the bridge for orders. The Norwich City was making water in two of her six holds so Captain Hamer ordered everyone to gather in the galley and wait for daylight. After a considerable time I noticed smoke coming from the fiddley. I looked down in No. 3 [hold] and could just see flames down below. Hamer ordered the lifeboats lowered but the mountainous seas breaking against the stranded ship ripped one boat from its davit and swept the Captain overboard. By that time the ship was a furnace .... We had the intention of waiting on board till daylight. [Then] she started exploding down below. **************** Those who could took to the remaining lifeboat but it was no sooner launched than it was capsized by a wave. Lott was swept to the reef, then back to the ship, and finally, around daybreak, found himself on the beach. In all, five British seamen and six Arab firemen were lost. The 24 survivors were rescued five days later by ships which had set out from Samoa when the first SOS was received. After two rescue ships arrived from Samoa the survivors were forced to move to the "lee side" of the island because the surf was too severe near the wreck for boats to take them off the island. It is not clear from the available accounts just where on the shore the rescue was effected A note sent by Captain Hamer on December 4th to the captain of one of the rescue ships provides an interesting list of the needs of Europeans marooned on Gardner Island for five days, "...Please send as much water as you can as we have none. We have meat but a case of milk would come in useful as would matches, chlorodyne as some of us have diarrhea and any old boots (one pair size tens) and any old hats and tobacco." ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:55:27 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF I'd be interested in seeing it! (Cam Warrens full report) ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:57:17 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Re: Late night Foruming Randy wrote: >Actually, I just arose, due to my inability to sleep 'cause I want to read the >latest forum postings! I sometimes arise at 4 a.m. too, but not to check the e-mail. ;>) Tom ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:02:03 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: Dem Bones >In fact, Gallagher's discovery looks entirely plausible as being just what he >thought it was except for the forensic anthropological opinions of two >doctors, neither of whom was a forensic anthropologist. That's why we've been >so intent upon getting some good 1998 science laid on these bone measurements. And I eagerly await the results of that assessment of the bone measurements! ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:05:21 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: VISITING WINSLOW REEF Cam Warren wrote: > As to fuel consumption, that's not my area of expertise - talk to > Elgen Long, et al. We're dealing with hard figures and simple math here - you don't need to be an expert. Elgen knows how long the Electra would have stayed up with the reported fuel load just as well as we do - so he just says that Chater and Collopy (who were actually there) were wrong. So far all has been quiet on the subject. > Incidentally, Kelly Johnson (in his book) was firmly convinced AE/FN went > to the bottom, and I'd consider him a pretty good source. I'd consider him an unimpeachable source - in matters dealing with the Earhart aircraft's performance. His opinion about what AE/FN did and did not do on July 2, 1937 is just that, an opinion. Though, I bet if we could ask him, he'd say they went to the bottom a good four hours after 9:00am. > Besides, all the answers are in Max Collins' "Flying Blind. "This is a work of fiction..." -Max Allan Collins, "Flying Blind" (page 338) I couldn't agree more. LOVE TO MOTHER Russ ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:09:24 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Experiment sorry, Ric, but i still believe DAMES STANDS A BETTER CHANCE OF FINDING THE WRECK THAN YOU. STOP BEATING A DEAD HORSE(Niku) AND DO SOME RESEARCH OF YOUR OWN . -- DICK *************************************************************** From Ric ...the gods themselves contend in vain. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:16:51 EDT From: Roberta Woods Subject: Re: bones http://medstat.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo/forensics/for_frame.html This one worked for me. -- Roberta Woods ************************************************************* From Ric Thanks Roberta. That works for me too. Seems (to a layman) to be a good basic overview of the discipline. ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:39:28 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Forensic Anthro. I'd like to explain just how we're going about this bone measurement business because it's pretty interesting. As everyone knows by now, a partial skeleton found on Gardner Island in 1940 was suspected at the time as being Amelia Earhart. British authorities held the matter "strictly secret" pending further investigation. A British doctor in Tarawa looked at the bones and declared them to be those of an elderly Polynesian male. A few months later, in April 1941, the principal of the medical school in Suva, Fiji recorded the measurements of several of the bones and wrote a report which expressed the opinion that the individual was a middle-aged, stocky, muscular male about 5 ft 5 inches in height. We don't know what then became of the bones. However, we do have the measurements taken by the doctor in Fiji. By evaluating those measurements with present-day forensic anthropological information and technology we should be able to assess the probable validity of the opinions expressed in 1941. Leading this investigation is Karin R. Burns, PhD,(TIGHAR 2071) a noted forensic anthropologist now teaching at the University of North Carolina, Charlotte. Dr. Burns is much in demand by forensic anthropological projects worldwide. (Last month she was in Poland verifying the remains of a relative of American Revolutionary War hero Kazimir Pulaski.) Independently evaluating the bone measurements taken in 1941 is Richard L. Jantz, PhD of the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. Dr. Jantz is the co-author of FORDISC, the first interactive computer program for the classification of unknown adult crania according to race and sex using any combination of standard cranial measurements. He is not a TIGHAR member (yet). As explained by Dr. Jantz, "The impetus to develop FORDISC resulted from increasingly frequent requests from colleagues to calculate 'made-to-order' discriminant functions using data from the Forensic Data Bank at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. The Forensic Data Bank contains samples of 20th century American populations, the most appropriate samples against which to compare measurements of unidentified crania. Custom discriminant functions are especially necessary when a specimen is fragmentary and measurements required by published functions are impossible to obtain. "Features of FORDISC 2.0 include comparisons to Howells craniometric data base samples, postcranial and mandibular discriminant functions for race and sex, stature estimation, more extensive on-line help, and a pictorial on-screen measurement guide for craniometrics." In addition, the forensics/anthropology/osteology department at Hamline University in St. Paul, MN has agreed to look at the Hoodless data. We should have the results of these analyses for posting to the forum very soon. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:10:04 EDT From: Dennis McGee Subject: More on dem bones If I remember correctly, you said 11 men died in the Norwich City wreck and that the 24 survivors buried three (?) bodies that later washed ashore. Is there any indication where those three bodies washed up? Long theory, short: If the ship is on the NW side of the reef and IF the 3 (?) bodies washed up on the NW side of the reef, then the remaining bodies --if they ever were washed ashore -- would most likely have also arrived on the NW side of the reef. Therefore "dem bones" -- which I think you said were found on the eastern side of the reef -- were in all likelihood NOT any of the NC crew. So that fact would at least rule out dem bones being the surviving parts of the dearly departed. Is this correct? Like a lot of forum subscribers, I'm confused about exactly where all of the bones were found. I know you promised a clarification in a later TIGHAR Tracks, but dad-gummit, I can't wait. Can you give us a sneak preview of a map and some "X's" created from that decrepit boat anchor of a PC system you refuse to part with? LTM Dennis McGee 0149 ************************************************************** From Ric There's no way to put up a map on the forum and, to tell you the truth, I'm a little hesitant to slap up a map on the internet showing the whole world exactly where we think things are on the island. (TIGHAR members are entitled to a few privileges and you never know when Ed Dames is going to have another vision.) But let me see if I can clear up the confusion. 1. We have documented evidence of the the discovery of only one set of bones on Nikumaroro. These were a skull found by laborers sometime in 1939 and a partial skeleton found by Colonial Service Officer Gerald Gallagher in 1940. 2. We are not certain where these bones were found but it was clearly somewhere near the lagoon shore along the southern side of the island. Our favorite hypothesis (this week) has them found on a small peninsula just west of the southern lagoon passage (Bauareke Passage). 3. There are rumors of other bones found onshore somewhere in the vicinity of the wreck of the Norwich City. 4. It seems safe to assume that the bones found by Gallagher are not a body washed up from the Norwich City, the Titanic, or the Pequod because the skeleton was part of a scene which included a campfire, dead birds and a dead turtle. Dead people don't camp. 5. It's not at all clear whether the rumored remains near the wreck were scattered bones, an intact skeleton, an exposed interment, or what. As for how and where things would wash ashore, that's very hard to say with any degree of certainty. The currents around an atoll like Niku are very complex and change with the tides and the weather. LTM, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:52:01 EDT From: Forest Blair Subject: Other possible visitors to Niku In the past 30-40 years there have been many adventurers and fishermen sailing the South Pacific. During just my year-plus at Canton in 1970-71, we ran across at least three such encounters: 1) an oriental ( Japanese I think) fishing boat needing supplies; 2) a father and son in a trimaran returning from Samoa to Honolulu needing a rest stop and some terra firma; 3) a Russian "research"--make that spy--ship ( the size of a modern passenger liner) that one morning appeared close off our westerly shore. A chap named Jimmy Cornell in his book "Ocean Cruising Survey" published by Sheridan House in 1986, moreover, lists over 150 seagoing sail boats that have prowled the South Pacific in our time. Cornell, in fact, interviewed their owners for the writing of his book. Bottom line: Perhaps Gardner (Niku) was not so untouched by outsiders as we like to think. With its lagoon, it's easy to think that some of these adventurers and fisherman may have anchored over night just to stretch their legs. The Russians may even have sipped some vodka around a campfire. The Russian ship and more than half of the sailboats had women on board. Who knows how old a pair of shoes might have been that a lady would take on an extended cruise to walk around on boat landings and coral rubble ? I have a pair of dress shoes, 19 years old, that I still wear. Please, no comments about style or frugality! Don't wish to sound negative on present thinking any more than not being convinced the Canton engine was found on Niku, but believe we must review all possibilities on sources of our artifacts. Forest #2149 *************************************************************** From Ric No argument there. In the absence of surveillance cameras, we really can't say with certainty who may have visited the island. We can, however, put some requirements on the person whose bones were found by Gallagher. 1. They died marooned on the island long enough before (at the earliest) December1938 so that only a badly weathered partial skeleton remained. 2. They had with them shoes which looked to Gallagher to be women's shoes of contemporary manufacture. 3. Whatever means of conveyance brought them to Gardner Island was not in evidence in 1938, or in October 1937 when Maude and Bevington first visited the island, or for that matter, July 9, 1937 when the Colorado's search planes saw only "signs of recent habitation." * 4. Their loss escaped the notice of the press, unless the individual happened to be one of the two people known to have disappeared in the region in 1937. *This is an interesting point that we haven't discussed in detail. How does someone get marooned on an island? If your ship goes aground, as did the Norwich City, it tends to remain a landmark for many years. If your ship sinks at sea and you escape in a lifeboat, then the lifeboat stays around. (In 1938 the New Zealand survey party found one of the lifeboats from the wreck of the Norwich City still sitting in the bushes where it had washed up nine years before.) If you abandon ship and swim for it do you do that with a sexant box under your arm and a Benedictine bottle in your hand? These would seem to be items salvaged Robinson Crusoe style from a vessel which, although accessible for a time, is fragile enough to have been quickly obliterated or at least reduced to easily obscured wreckage. Of course, you can also be put ashore like Ben Gunn and left to survive with nothing but your sextant box and your Benedictine bottle. The few yachties I've known have not been people I'd want to spend a lot time with, but I'm not sure they're THAT bad. Love to mother, Ric ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:27:23 EDT From: JJJ Subject: Williams Brothers scale model L-10 As announced by a fellow forum member Williams Bros. Electra model is now available. I picked one up at my local hobby shop today. It is an L-10, but NR16020 it ain't. The kit is wrought with inaccuracies. The kit decals supply the color markings for above the wings and horizontal stab. The color is blood red, WRONG. As we now know it should be FS #12197. The doors for access to the auxiliary fuel tanks on the side of the fuselage are nonexistent. There is no indication of the split flaps on the underside of the wings. These are the obvious errors. I am just beginning to "put the calipers to it" to determine if it scales out correctly. At 1/53 scale this is a proverbial pain in the posterior. Not to be all negative, it does "Look right" i.e. the contours have the proper appearance. The molding is done very well, and there are hardly any flaws in the molding (negligible). With a little scratch-building and modifying of the kit, and the use of paint to match the FS #, the kit will build into a decent scale replica. The manufacturer provides decals and interior seat for the Navy and US Coast Guard versions. The interior of NR16020 is empty. There are no interior parts for AE's aircraft. The cockpit is provided, i.e., seats, control yokes, instrument panel, etc., but nothing behind the cockpit bulkhead. (NO FUEL TANKS). Ric, just for the record I am a modeler. However, the model building hobby grew out of my interest in aviation, aviation history, and the fascination for those who fly. It, model building, gives me a three dimensional picture of the subject aircraft. e.g. Richard I. Bong's P-38 ("Marge"). AE has become a fascination, and a passion, I cannot describe or explain. I spend months and sometimes years gathering the data, scale drawings, pictures, books, "tech orders" for the specific time frame or theater, etc. As you know I even obtained a service manual for an L-10 for it's detailed information. So please smile when you refer to us scale replica builders as just "Model Builders". No offense taken. Thanks again for a piece of "detail" I have been searching for for over 10 years, that is, the proof and verification of the color. LTM J.J.J. *************************************************************** From Ric I hope I haven't said anything that could be construed as disparaging to "model builders." I've built dozens and dozens of model airplanes myself. A few years ago, frustrated by the utter lack of any available scale replica of Nungesser and Coli's transatlantic White Bird (l'Oiseau Blanc), I built one from scratch in carved balsa. That was back when I had a life. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:34:40 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Polley's return Dick Polley is back from the Coast Guard Loran reunion. Tom King (Project Archaeologist), Mike Everette (Radio Historian), and I (janitor) equipped him with about a gazillion questions to ask his fellow veterans. He'll have a report for us soon. ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:51:37 EDT From: Cam Warren Subject: Winslow Report Today's trivia - Winslow Reef was named for RADM John Ancrum Winslow (1811-73). He gained fame in the Civil War, when, in command of the Yankee cruiser KEARSAGE, he sank the Confederate raider ALABAMA off Cherbourg, France. He was the commander of the Pacific squadron (1870-72). Herewith my Winslow Reef report, written (independently) about the same time Jacobson's article reached substantially the same conclusions. Cam Warren WINSLOW REEF - A Current Report [1994] by Cam Warren One of Amelia's last messages from the air said they were "...on a line of position 157/337..." which exactly matches a line drawn from Howland, her destination, to Baker Island. TIGHAR researchers extended the line on that bearing and decided she must have seen and landed on Nikumaroru (nee Gardner) Island, some 330 nautical miles from her intended landfall, and at a bearing of 159 degrees True. Plausible, but about a week or so after the Electra disappeared, aircraft from the U.S.S. Colorado flew over Gardner and other islands in that vicinity with negative results. The Navy also attempted to check out Winslow Reef and its neighbors, presumably using a British Admiralty chart (BA 780) printed in 1927. That chart had the reef about 13 miles southwest of its true position, incidentally, and the planes didn't find it at all. Joe Gervais reignited interest in Winslow Reef in Joe Klaas' book "Amelia Earhart Lives" (published in 1970). At the time, he described it as "157 degrees southeast of Howland Island" and went on to tell fellow researcher Robert Dinger that "It's a pattern of sand bars at zero degrees 59 minutes south latitude, 174 degrees and 43 minutes west latitude. That's 170 miles southeast of Howland Island. The reef sticks six feet out of the water at low tide, and the sand bars are only visible at low tide. I've checked the tide tables. And the tide was out at 8 a.m...." Well Joe never did get a chance to check out the reef, since his chartered boat ran aground shortly before he was to fly out and board it and other leads in the Earhart mystery caught his attention. As it turned out, his information was incorrect anyway, not at all unusual, as we shall see. Ever since the earliest sailors ventured out into the seven seas and returned with such reports as "here be dragons" charts have often been suspect, and those of the South Pacific are no exception. Captain Winslow of the vessel 'Phoenix' first reported shoal water and "two rocks awash" in 1851, at 1.40S/174.51W, and got the reef named in his honor. In 1926 the British schooner 'Doris Crane' spotted a reef awash at 0.55S/174.51W, or about 45 miles northward of Winslow Reef. According to the book "Sailing Directions" (5th edition, 1940) the steamer 'Huraki' passed over the charted position of Winslow Reef in 1922 and saw no sign of shoal water. The same negative report went into the books in 1928 ('Nassa') and 1932 (the American steamer 'Golden Cross'). Then a serious search for both reefs was made in 1935 by the British naval vessel 'Wellington'. "Favorable circumstances" were reported, but nothing whatever was found. A mysterious disappearing reef, or reefs, according to the literature. Was it, or were they, visible to Amelia on July 2, 1937? Curiously, nobody I talked to in the spring of 1992 could say for sure. Nothing to do but go and have the look that Gervais wanted. By July, Many phone calls and faxes later, my associate and I found ourselves aboard a 55' schooner, departing Tarawa for the vicinity of Winslow, armed with surface cameras, kite cameras, a magnetometer and a GPS instrument. Winslow Reef? Yes, six fathoms down. The mysterious "ghost reef" to the northward? No bottom showing on the fathometer, not there or at any of six other locations where "breakers" had been reported. Seems the Colorado boys may have been right after all, and they checked that area twice. Since we're talking three miles deep around here, an awful tall seamount must have fallen down when nobody was looking.Was that a possibility? Fast forward to 1994. "The Times Atlas of the World" (7th Comprehensive Edition, 1989) is considered highly reliable in its information. On Plate 10, "Australasia and South-West Pacific" Winslow Reef is clearly visible, appearing as the southern portion of a twin-peaked sea mount, astride the 175 west longitude line, approximately two degrees south of the Equator. Aha! Surely their information is impeccable. A call to the main offices of John Bartholomew & Son in Edinburgh, Scotland, who do all the splendid mapwork in the atlas, elicited the information that "they don't maintain records of their information sources," but that it likely came from the British Admiralty Hydrographic Office. The Times book did cite several American individuals and organizations for their "valuable contributions". Among them were the National Geographic Society, NASA, and Dr. W. H. Meynard, Jr., of the Scripps Institute of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. The latter sounded like a "horse's mouth" source, but a phone call revealed that worthy gentleman had passed away several years ago. That prompted a new round of faxes and phone calls to all government and private agencies that should know what's going on at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. Well, it's a big place, and Scripps Institute, who set out annually on survey cruises, hadn't been past Winslow since the late sixties. National Geographic puts out a dandy map of the Pacific sans water, but the scale was too large for accurate analysis. More goose-chasing led me to Dr. Walter Smith, at the NOAA Geosciences Lab in Maryland. Walter measures the earth's gravitational forces from a satellite, and they give him very accurate information on what the sea bottom looks like. He sent me some sectional maps based on his readings, that were quite revealing, and seemed to confirm our on-site observations. To wit, Winslow yes, Ghost Reef no. Well, there was a rise at the latter location, but a long way down. I asked Walter - could that mountain have collapsed since 1945? He didn't think so, and suspects many of those reef reports are off- base. "My work on the accuracy of data suggests that with celestial navigation one can be quite far off. There is a strong possibility that the objects sighted are not located at the points given." This, despite my pointing out that the shoal waters reported were in a 10 mile radius of one another. "They are probably 50 miles from the nearest (sea mount}. This would be a big navigational error, but I have seen much worse." Could the mariners have seen some other sort of natural phenomenon? Smith says it's possible, but not likely. Volcanic activity might cause a boiling effect, and even produce floating material like pumice that might be mistaken for a reef. However, this would also attract the attention of seismologists, who are always keeping their ears to the ground (sorry!). Ordinarily, this sort of thing only occurs near an active volcano with a summit in shallow water. Smith says "If you hold out hope that this is the explanation, I think you must look for geological evidence of active volcanism in this area..." So, where does that leave us? Or more precisely, Amelia? Somewhere else, it seems. The Ghost Reef doesn't, and apparently never did exist; Winslow maybe was awash 57 years ago, but at present is under 36 feet of water at its highest point. If we can believe in any of the post-splash radio messages from Earhart, she had to be on "dry" land. Maybe not dry at high tide, but dry enough when she sat down to get the radio to work. Carondelet Reef, much further southwest, does show sand occasionally, but there is a lot more promising real estate on the way there from Howland. Perhaps Amelia spotted the underwater reef, and faced with an emergency landing of some sort, crossed her fingers and headed for the sand. Of course she met with a nasty surpise, and even if she and Noonan were somehow able to launch their life wraft, it wasn't long before the Electra sank - most likely somewhere down the steep side of the Winslow sea mount. Until that mount is completely checked by a submersible, it cannot be totally dismissed. Conclusion? Keep looking. Like Mr. Micawber said; "Something will turn up!" Reno, Nevada April 7, 1994 ======================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:05:22 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Re: Other possible visitors There's little question that people have visited Niku from time to time, but it's probably not a very popular place to pop in and drop anchor. The usual anchorage, off Tatiman Passage, is so unstable that most ships have had to tie off to the wreck of the Norwich City, thus drifting rather uncomfortably close to the reef edge. And the channels into the lagoon are separated from the open sea by the very shallow reef flats, and are themselves hardly deep enough to drag a skiff through. Apropos Dick's suggestion, though, should we be looking for a dead horse? Was the Electra big enough to accommodate a horse? Maybe if you fed it pingpong balls? LTM Tom King **************************************************************** From Ric Interesting hypothesis. This could be the truth behind rumors that while in Lae, Earhart's Electra was modified so that it had "more horsepower." A simple misunderstanding. Someone thought it was a reference to larger engines when in fact she had loaded a horse aboard the airplane. But why would she do that? It's obvious. She was actually planning a flight into the "horse latitudes" which are at 30 to 35 degrees north and south latitudes. And what major city is at precisely 35 degrees 42 minutes north latitude? Tokyo! Remember all of those photographs of Emperor Hirohito reviewing the troops while sitting on - what? That's right. A white horse. A quick archival check reveals that no photo showing the Emperor on tha