Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:19:06 EDT From: Jack Subject: Itasca crew questions I hope this isn't the one hundred and first time someone is asking these questions but I am still trying to get up to speed on the various investigations. 1. What was Army Air Corps Lt. Daniel Cooper doing aboard a Coast Guard vessel? 2. I read someplace on the Forum that the Itasca radio operator was a chap named Ciprianni. Was there another shift operator named Bill Galten? Regards, Jack, 2157 *************************************************************** From Ric >1. What was Army Air Corps Lt. Daniel Cooper doing aboard a Coast Guard >vessel ? He was in charge of a couple of mechanics who were supposed to help service her plane. >2. I read someplace on the Forum that the Itasca radio operator was a chap >named Ciprianni. Cipriani manned the high-frequency direction finder on Howland Island. He was a Coast Guardsman but he wasn't actually part of the Itasca's regular crew. He was borrowed from another vessel. >Was there another shift operator named Bill Galten? Yes. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:24:41 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: More Noonan info Congrats to Jerry for the maritime information! The saga of "our Fred" slowly unfolds. This from the New Orleans Times-Picayune: July 6, 1937: CAPTAIN NOONAN ONCE LIVED HERE Amelia Earhart's Navigator Quit Sea for Airplanes. That Captain Fred J. Noonan, a former resident of New Orleans and employee of the Mississippi Shipping Company left the lure of the sea for that of the air was recalled here Monday by friends, when news was received that rescue ships were believed nearing him and Amelia Earhart in the Pacific waters. Capt. Noonan once lived at 5909 Catina St., next door to Mr. & Mrs. Edward F. Stumpf, 5907 Catina St. "We remember him well," Mr. Stumpf said Monday. "He was married to the former Josephine Sullivan while he lived in New Orleans. He met her, he told me, at a dancing school show. I remember when he quit the sea because he wanted to take up aviation, not necessarily as a pilot, but in a navigating capacity". "I remember Noonan when he used to come out to the airfield and watch the fliers," Henry Chapman, president of the Chapman Air Service at Shushan Airport, recalled Monday. "I remember he got his commercial license just a little while before he flew his first solo flight at Menefee Air Field". (note: yes, that what it says). July 7, 1937: FRIEND OF NOONAN WON'T TALK ABOUT HIM, BY REQUEST. Keeps Counsel on Shipmate Days With Earhart Navigator If the name of Captain Fred J. Noonan, former New Orleanian and Amelia Earhart's navigator, is in the newspapers all over the world, it is not of his own choosing. Nor is it that of his old shipmate, Aubrey M. Alexander, 3216 Bienville Street, chief engineer of a New Orleans brewing company. The cause became known Tuesday of Mr. Alexander's unwillingness to give any interview with respect to his acquaintance with the former employee of the Mississippi Shipping Co. who left the sea here to enter aviation, obtained a commercial flying license and made his first solo flight at the old Menefee Airport. In a letter from Noonan to his intimate friend, the injunction was laid upon Mr. Alexander never to discuss their friendship for newspaper publication, and Mr. Alexander, Tuesday, wouldn't. Dislike of notoriety was one factor in his refusal but the controlling influence was the postscript of that treasured letter. It didn't contain any reservations with respect to whether Noonan might be safe or missing, alive or dead, and Mr. Alexander didn't see his way clear to reading any into it. It was learned, however, that they had been on most of the seas and in most of the ports of the world together in the days when Mr. Alexander was a seafaring man, himself; that Noonan was his best man when Mr. Alexander married, and godfather to his daughter, who resides at the Bienville St. address; that when Capt. Noonan visited New Orleans late in May with Amelia Earhart, he sent a request to his old friend to communicate with him. The rest of the story is for Mr. Alexander to tell; and the fact that he wouldn't tell it was Tuesday's story. Ron D. 2126 ************************************************************* From Ric There's sure some interesting stuff here. Let's get on the FAA and see if we can find out whether Fred ever had a license. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:27:34 EDT From: Jack J. Subject: Lockheed 10 documentation I will copy and send a copy of the pages of the Lockheed Electra Model 10-A maintenance manual that indicates the skin thicknesses of the upper and lower wing surfaces. I will also send a copy of the diagram titled "Tailwheel Assembly". It indicates that the tailwheel is a Goodyear Airwheel 16x7-3. A call to any Goodyear aviation tire dealer should be able to give you the exact dimensions of the tire. More importantly they should be able to give you the wheel diameter. The tire surface is rounded and compresses when on the ground under load. The wheel diameter is a better measurement to compare to the faces of our favorite aviators in photographs. I will continue to look for undisputable reference sources for the fuselage skin thicknesses and the dimensions of the rear door. The maintenance manual gives the overhaul times for the various components of the aircraft. I found it very surprising that the radio and ADF equipment had to be overhauled every 500 hours, inspected daily, and "check" periods every 35, 70, and 140 hours. This manual is kept up to date up through 2-5-1950. This manual is the Lockheed 10-A Maintenance Manual of Wisconsin Airlines. They operated five model 10-As. I'll copies of the "stuff" ASAP. I banged this out in a hurry and did not "spell check" or check for grammar foe-paws(sic). -ask mother's forgiveness. Jack J. **************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Jack. Mama say s'okay. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:29:58 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Re: Pallette research For Chris Greenberg Chris...contact me my direct E-Mail and I will fill you in. No need to bore the Forum. It might not be important anyway. Just a hunch of mine. Don djor@cell2000.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:31:02 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Toni Carter Does anyone know if *Flight For Freedom* is available on video tape? Thanks, Tom ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:34:15 EDT From: Debbie Stressner Subject: Sextant #s 3500 & 3547 I've followed the online forum as much as I can, and also visit the webpages frequently. It would make sense that these handwritten and stenciled ##s were part of Fred's private inventory system. 35 could stand for the year of purchase and the other two digits would be which one was purchased first, or preference of use. Deb **************************************************************** From Ric Gotta agree with ya. Now...if we could just prove that. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:01:11 EDT From: Barbara M. Subject: Can label not Beechnut Tom King wrote: > Did the historian at Beechnut say why he was so sure the label was not theirs? > Because of its appearance, or the wording, or what? It would be helpful to > know. The Historian at Beechnut indicated that their library contains every Beechnut label ever produced. I sent him to the website to look at the fragment and his response to me was that "it's definitely not ours, it's too large". BarbaraM *************************************************************** From Ric Whoa. That image on the website is greatly enlarged. The actual label is tiny. The entire fragment we have measures only 3 inches by 2 inches at its extreme edges. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:03:17 EDT From: Van Hunn Subject: Flight for Freedom Tom Robison asked if the video "Flight For Freedom" is available for purchase. He can get it from: Belle & Blade Home Video Co., order # 1-800-365-2104, or customer service # 1-973-328-8488. website: www.belleandblade.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:10:47 EDT From: From Jack Subject: More Eugene Pallette The Internet has info on Mr. Pallette. I found it by searching Silent Movie Actors. Then selecting Classic Movie Home Page. Pallette born in Winfield KS. July 08, 1889----died Sept. 03, 1954 Screen career began in 1911 (silent movies) and includes over 200 pictures. He acted with the best of them. Is in the Hollywood Hall of Fame. regards, Jack, 2157 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:12:29 EDT From: Michael Strickland Subject: Re: Flight for Freedom I could not find any information on video availability for "Flight for Freedom" on the Internet, but I did find the following comprehensive summary/review/cast and crew listing for the film, if you're interested: http://www.tvgen.com/movies/mopic/pictures/16/16980.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:13:59 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Need Seattle Help Anyone on the Forum live in Seattle and have a desire to spend quality library time chasing Noonan history stuff?? Contact me at jham@ccnet.com. blue skies, (#2128) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:23:20 EDT From: Jack J. Subject: Lockheed 10 documentation Here is some additional information about the Model 10-A that would apply to the "E" as well. The airfoil section is a "Clark Y-9". This information should enable you to get a measurement of the wing thickness just inside the right engine nacelle at the main spar. If you compare this thickness to the scaled down thickness in the picture of the aircraft wreckage in the tropical setting, using the propeller as a "known" dimension. It may give you one more point of evidence that the aircraft is an Electra. This is using the assumption that the propeller is a Hamilton Standard prop. Another note: The only Japanese twin engined, twin tailed, aircraft that comes close to looking like the Electra is the Mitsubishi L3M1. It had twin vertical stabilizers located about mid-way between the fuselage and the end of the horizontal stabs. It was 53 ft. long, and had an 82 ft. wingspan. One of these aircraft flew around the world in 1939. Maybe they used AE's maps (tongue in cheek). It had 14 cylinder radial engines in double rows of 7 cylinders. Jack J. ************************************************************** From Ric There is nothing in the wreck photo that says that the airplane is twin-tailed. The Tachikawa Ki-54 is the best Japanese alternative we've come up with so far but there seem to be some windshield discrepancies and all the Ki-54s we've seen pictures of have spinners on the props. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:25:47 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: Noonan pilot? I spoke with the Airmens Certification Center today in OKC - they were kind enough to run a computer search of records back to 1917 - but did not turn anything up. They agreed to do a more exhaustive search with a written request which I will send out today. (they will waive the usual requirement for an obituary to prove the airman is deceased). Ron D. 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric That's the FAA for ya. Always jumping to conclusions. It will be interesting to see if anything turns up. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 22:45:06 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Can label Just a couple of passing thoughts on the label. Just as the striations may belie the type of can to which the label was adhered, there may also be some microscopic traces of the glue or mucilage used to stick the label to the can, the composition of which, however dry, may still be analyzed and traced with today's forensic methodology. Also, perhaps some newspaper or trade advertisments of the era may yield evidence of the product itself, or at least something contemporaneous enough to indicate the most common usage of that type of product. Just a thought...Best wishes to all, Gene Dangelo :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:44:58 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Re: Ric's treatise on fuel (Strippel) sorry, ric, i still do not beieve CHATER OR COLLOPY ACTUALLY WAS THERE AT THE TIME OF T/O. HERE'S ANOTHER THING RIC PROBABLY WON'T WANT ME TO SHOW YOU----PRYMAK WENT TO GREAT LENGTHS TO MAKE SURE IT WASN'T AVilable at the "flying lady meet. ric= if you disagree with the attached, please show sources other than chater report!!!!!!! DICK p.s. barbara wiley, Please e-mail me direct. **************************************************************** From Ric I have no idea what you're talking about. Nothing was attached. I also have no idea why you think that neither Collopy nor Chater was present for the takeoff they each described in their respective contemporaneous letters. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:02:37 EDT From: Chris Greenberg Subject: Eugene Pallette Thanks Jack for the tip on the Classic Movie Home Page, and the Hollywood Hall of Fame; good stuff. Incidentally, it looks like old Eugene and I share the same birthday, July 8th. It's coming up Forum members, only six shopping days left. Chris Greenberg- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:39:03 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: Re: Ric's treatise on fuel (Strippel) IS THAT MAN BACK AGAIN------------- Jim Tierney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:44:00 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Poor Fred Turns out Fred lost his Mom by the time he was 7. Joseph T. Noonan, from Maine, shows up in the 1900 census for North Town, Cook county, Chicago. He was living as a boarder at 212 Erie street. His marital status is "widowed" and Fred is not listed. He was born May of 1861. Both his parents are from Ireland. He can read, write, and speak english. His occupation is "collector" (he must have been on an undercover assignment ). So what's become of our Fred? He said in his maritime records that he left for Seattle in the summer of '05. I'm working on it. Blue skies, jham (#2128) ************************************************************* From Ric An interesting picture of "our" Fred is beginning to emerge. Good work, Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:32:46 EDT From: Deb Subject: Re: ABC News As a very new member of the forum, I have to tell you I am extremely impressed by TIGHAR's commitment and dedication to solving the mystery of Amelia's disappearance (although not the lease bit impressed with the dippy ABC reporter and his skeptical, obnoxious remarks, especially the one about the shoe). Ric, you handled yourself very professionally! This story gave me much more information about your group and how committed you are to finding the TRUTH. It also made me lose any respect I held for Linda Finch -- her attitude regarding not wanting to know what happened to Amelia took me a little bit by surprise. How absurd! But to you and all your crew -- job well done on the last expedition! Although this may have come up before (as I said, I'm really new to this), I offer this thought: I personally wear a size 7 1/2 shoe. However, my riding boots (which are similar in heel style, etc. to the shoes and boots worn by Amelia), are a size 8 1/2 and anyone who wears this type of shoe can tell you that sizes are completely different (just as ballet shoes run two sizes smaller than your normal size). I, personally, am convinced that this shoe heel found on the island did belong the Amelia -- who else could it have belonged to? I hope that soon you will be able to make another trip to the island and find the evidence you need to solve this mystery. And you were right, Ric -- SHE deserves that. I wish I could be of more help, but I have no background or knowledge in any of these areas -- just a fascination with the amazing woman and a sincere desire to let her be finally laid to rest. Sixty-one years is long enough. Love to mother, ~DEB~ ************************************************************** From Ric Thank you Deb. Don't be too upset with Robert Krulwich. His good-natured (okay, dippy) skeptical manner gave me something to play off of. I had a blast doing the show. I can't say enough for the film crew that was with us on the expedition. The producer, Howie Masters, is ethical, brave, self-effacing and creative. What the hell he's doing in television is the real mystery. The cameraman, Sam Painter, has now been on three TIGHAR expeditions and is literally part of the TIGHAR family. The soundman, Kenny Kosar, about died because Howie wouldn't let him surf the breakers at Niku (he actually had his board with him) but he took the disappointment in stride. Great guys. My riding boots run bigger than my shoe size too. (What kind of horse ya got?) We're just now finalizing the dates and logistics for Niku IIII. Next weekend we'll be hashing all that out at the team meeting and conference in San Francisco, then I'll let everyone know the plan and we'll all have to get serious about making it happen. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:52:18 EDT From: Ann Subject: TV Program I watched the show and found it interesting. It was helpful to see Niku and Kanton as this helps me to visualize the environment better. It was also good to see you and the other team members especially on film. And the singing was a giggle too. Now I really wish that I was able to attend the conference but I must be on the other coast at that time. Will there be conference materials (notes, etc.) available for purchase later? I'd be interested. Cheers, Ann #2101 ************************************************************** From Ric The singing! Someday I'll find a way to get even with Howie (the producer) for that one. The impression created is that we troop through the jungle singing away like the seven dwarfs. Geeesh. The singing happens at night, after dinner aboard the boat, when everyone has written up their field notes for the day, and has listened to a harangue from me, and has discussed how we're going to tackle the next day's work. Sometimes then, the Fijian boat crew will come in with guitars and ukuleles to serenade us from their repertoire. Other times, various members of the team will offer song parodies they've been working on during the really boring search operations. The songs (there are dozens) are just one of the ways we've found to stay semi-sane in an environment that is not nearly as romantic as it looks on tape. But I can now predict with great confidence that the next time we're out there, this team of smartasses will troop through the jungle singing away just like they did on television. Life imitates art. As for the conference, I'll certainly report to the forum on what was discussed and decided. We won't hold up information like that for purchase. Don't worry, there'll be plenty of chances to contribute to the cause. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:09:37 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: The Growing Forum Our forum continues to grow - as of today (7/3) we have 325 subscribers - with the addition of new and fascinating people. Here are self-descriptions from just a few. I've not posted their names. They'll let you know who they are, if they choose to, through their forum postings. ********************************** I am the author of the novel, The Earhart Mission, listed in your bibliography. I did research and accumulated a first rate collection of books by and about AE when I did the book in the late 70s. In any event, I am interested in your efforts. ******************************** 25 years as a U.S. Treasury Agent, gathering evidence and witness testimony for presentation and proof beyond a reasonable doubt that certain events did or did not occur, etc. Have done 1000's of witness interviews, am familiar with forensics, rules of evidence, etc. I have been a model airplane builder and aviation history buff for over 40 years. I got interested in the Earhart saga in 1982 and can't let it go. Best wishes to TIGHAR in solving this mystery. *********************************************** I have been making historical television documentaries for many years & have an extensive background in research as well as 17 years in crime scene investigation/photography. If this is the kind of experience that may be useful to you please let me know if I can be of any assistance. ********************************************* HF radio, being electronic engineer, radio technician, knowing in detail WW II aircraft radio gear, and amateur radio operator using trailing wire antennas in mobile op. at more than 2,000 hours. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:23:06 EDT From: N. Hodge Subject: Need Gen'l info I am forwarding a letter from my father who is doing life in prison. I could use some help in answering his questions or some facts that he may be unaware of. He has no way to get obtain up to date information and his never seen the films. I joined the forum because of him and have sent most of the EMail to him that I have read. Still my father has read what books are available to him and has developed his own theories. Due to his continuing request I will send his letter forward. If any one would care to enlighten him about anything I will forward it to him. Thank You N. Hodge From D. Williams: I have aways suspected that certain information and facts may not have been published after the AE's disaperince in 1937. I have gathered what information I can but I am sure there is a lot more to the story. A letter from Lockheed Aircraft states AE's plane had twin Pratt & Whitney 450hp motors when AE took off March 17th from Oakland,CA., destenation Wheeler Field, HI. The distance was 2,409 mi. Lockheed aircraft mechanic Paul Nants that had installed the aux.fuel system accompanied AE as advisor. He monitored fuel consumtion meters and arrived at a conculsion that the plane would consume between 960 and 1,050 gallons of fuel during the planned Hawaii to Howland Island flight. The airplane had been grosly over weight with spare parts, totaling 14,049 pounds in addition to the extra fuel. After the accident at Wheeler Field AE's plain was overhauled and two Wright Whirlwind 550hp engines were put on the plane which would have played havoc with the Lockheed mechnic's estimated fuel consumption. In addition there was reported to have been a 17-20mph headwind quarting from the NE. There were also questions about the 'robot pilot', that had presented problems furing shake down runs after the overhaul at Burbank. Thirdly AE had made a deal with Bendix Radio Corp., in exchange for using their radio she would recieve $10,000. A fourth factor having been a top secret military radio direction finder had been installed in the plane after the 3-20-37 crash and AE did not have sufficent time to become familiar with using it. The fifth and final factor, the planeaccording to Lockheed "did not" have enough fuel for a 2,500 mile flight. Reflecting back NGP 1-98 atricel, the writer stated the plane had enough fuel to fly 4000 miles. Also the Itassic had reported problems with its radio antanna 6-28-37 after arriving 'on station' near Howland Island. During the inspection at Wheeler Field a 'blown fuse' had been replaced in the reciver. Generator cutouts had been adjusted, but the aircraft maintence was not exactly the state of the art in 1937. I concur with Ric on one point. Naruc Island is the most likely place where AE may have either ditched in the sea or made a forced landing. ??? What are the bases for your conclusion Naru is the likelist place where AE may have ditched ? ??? In regards to the inventory on the plane in Hawaii, was there a camara on board? ??? What type of motors were on the plane? ??? Can you estamate the fuel consumption? Lockheed indicated cruise speed at 196 mph, max. 202 mph. How come it would have taken more than 18 hours for a 2,500 mile flight? 2500=196=ets, 12+7 mins. ??? I have a map indicating Itassic two different locations, one near Solmon Island, one near Howland was it both places? D. Williams Waiting your response. ************************************************************* From Ric I'll be happy to reply to Mr. Williams. The principal problem faced by most Earhart researchers is the abundance of bad information that has been published. No one can reach valid conclusions from invalid data. >A letter from Lockheed Aircraft states AE's plane had twin Pratt & Whitney >450hp motors when AE took off March 17th from Oakland, CA., destination Wheeler >Field, HI. If there is such a letter it is in error. Earhart's airplane was ordered, built, and delivered - and ultimately disappeared - with 550 h.p. Pratt & Whitney R1340 S3H1 engines, serial numbers 6149 and 6150. All contemporaneous Lockheed and Bureau of Air Commerce records agree on this point and all known photos support it. >AE had made a deal with Bendix Radio Corp., in exchange for using their >radio she would receive $10,000. I am aware of no documentation to support such an allegation. >(A) top secret military radio direction finder had been installed in the >plane after the 3-20-37 crash and AE did not have sufficient time to become >familiar with using it. I am aware of no documentation to support such an allegation. >(T)he plane, according to Lockheed, "did not" have enough fuel >for a 2,500 mile flight. If someone at Lockheed said that, they were wrong. The airplane left Lae with 1,100 U.S. gallons of fuel. Power management guidelines prepared specifically for Earhart by Lockheed indicate that the airplane, with that fuel load, should have remained aloft for 24 hours at a cruising speed of 130 kts. That's 3,120 nautical miles in still air. >What are the bases for your conclusion Naru is the likelist place where AE >may have ditched ?>> I assume you mean Nikumaroro (formerly known as Gardner Island). Our conclusion is based upon: 1. Standard navigational procedures in use in 1937 2. Earhart's own announcement that she was flying on a "157-337" line 3. The theoretical maximum range of the aircraft 4. Post-loss radio signals believed to be from Earhart 5. Known and rumored events at Nikumaroro 6. Artifacts recovered from Nikumaroro >In regards to the inventory on the plane in Hawaii, was there a camera on >board? No. >Can you estimate the fuel consumption? Lockheed indicated cruise speed at >196 mph, max. 202 mph. How come it would have taken more than 18 hours for a >2,500 mile flight? 2500=196=ets, 12+7 mins.>> See above. An airplane's normal cruising speed and top speed are very different from its best economical cruising speed. Climbs and winds also greatly effect time en route. >I have a map indicating Itassic two different locations, one near Solomon >Island, one near Howland was it both places?>> Itasca was standing just offshore Howland Island. It was nowhere near the Solomon Islands. I hope these answers are useful to you. Ric Gillespie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:31:41 EDT From: Dustymiss Subject: Re: Poor Fred And it explains a lot of things, too about our Fred. Fred might have gotten shoved off onto an maiden aunt, or the like, as was the custom back then to deal with children of widowers, which is why he may not show up on that census. It also explains why Fred - coming from a good Irish household of that time had no siblings - and certainly explains his penchant for drink - being at least 75% pure Irish. ************************************************************* From Ric I don't think this tells us anything about whether or not he had siblings, and being Irish doesn't give him a penchant for drink any more than being black would make him lazy. I trust you were speaking in jest. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:34:10 EDT From: Ann Subject: Shoe sizes In a recent forum posting from "Deb" she mentions that one individual may have shoes of different sizes. I agree. I normally wear a woman's size 8 1/2 but both the boots I wear for flying and those I wear for skydiving are larger. Love to Mother, Ann#2101 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:41:30 EDT From: Bob Sherman Subject: Singing Ric wrote: > The singing! ... The impression created is that we troop through the >jungle singing away like the seven dwarfs. Geeesh. Some may believe the singing was one of the best parts. Worst was that there were no soloists, and the composer was not credited. RC 941 *************************************************************** From Ric Actually, the song used on the show was the first of the many and dates way back to 1989. As you'll recall, it's sung to the tune of Waltzing Matilda (despite official protests from the Australian Embassy) and is entitled: Finding Amelia Once a crazy lady vanished in an aeroplane, Crazy, but not near so crazy as we, For we sing as we search Through the blacktip sharks and Buka trees, You'll come a-finding Amelia with me. (chorus) Finding Amelia Finding Amelia You'll come a-finding Amelia with me For we sing as we search Through the blacktip sharks and Buka trees, You'll come a-finding Amelia with me. High o'er the island soar the mighty Frigate Birds Far down below, sweating searchers they see. Target in sight! Bombs away! cry the Frigate Birds. You'll come a-finding Amelia with me. (chorus) Finding Amelia Finding Amelia You'll come a-finding Amelia with me Target in sight! Bombs away! cry the Frigate Birds. You'll come a-finding Amelia with me. Out goes the Dive Team riding in their Zodiac Up swim the blacktips, one, two, three. Who's that tasty Dive Team you've got in your Zodiac? You'll come a-finding Amelia with me. (chorus) Finding Amelia Finding Amelia You'll come a-finding Amelia with me. Who's that tasty Dive Team you've got in your Zodiac? You'll come a-finding Amelia with me. Five British seamen, six Arab firemen One Irish expat, Fred and AE* And their ghosts may be heard In the breeze among the Buka trees You'll come a-finding Amelia with me. (chorus) Finding Amelia..... And their ghosts may be heard In the breeze among the Buka trees You'll come a-finding Amelia with me. (*reference to the drowned crewmembers of the S.S. Norwich City, the British colonial administrator who died on the island, and of course, our heroes.) To avoid indictment and extradition by Australian authorities, I maintain that I found the lyrics carved on a coconut. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:36:18 EDT From: Harold Mendelson Subject: Absolutely convinced? ABC's "What Happened to Amelia Earhart?" that aired last night was fascinating to me. I found the reporter Robert Krulwich using typical TV Magazine style to dramatize the story, but based on my viewing I did not find him "smartass" as you characterized him in your 24 June email. Perhaps his off camera personality was different. I was amazed at your reply to his point-blank question to you: "Do you think you have solved the mystery of Amelia Earhart's disappearance?" Your reply was "I'm absolutely convinced that we have solved the mystery". (I taped the TV program and re-played this exchange to verify that I had heard you correctly) In all of your comments on the AE Search Forum, I received the strong impression that you are a thorough, unemotional, conservative scientist. I did and still do admire your measured and considered approach to this ongoing investigation. Would you comment on this apparent conflict? The artifacts you found on Gardner are tantalizing and intriguing, and strongly suggest that more definitive positive evidence may still be found on Gardner. However, I do not want to believe that you intended to give the impression that based on the heel of the shoe, the piece of aluminum that may have been a belly patch and the scrap of plexiglass that may have come from the window of her plane, etc has solved the mystery. Do you feel that the reporter and their editing of the raw tape tried to create the impression that you had taken a position and were trying to defend it? I look forward to your comments, and to the July 7th Discovery program. Harold Mendelson, No. 2082 *************************************************************** From Ric Thank you for raising this issue. It's a tough one. I'll admit that I flinched a bit myself when I saw myself say that (again) last night, but I take full responsibility for saying it. Here's what happened. We're standing on the beach at Fire Island having spent the whole day shooting the walking-by-ocean scenes. To wrap the interview, Krulwich asks, "Do you think you have solved the mystery of Amelia Earhart's disappearance?" My first reply was a carefully qualified statement which, as I recall, started with something like, "Based upon the information and evidence we have gathered to date, it appears highly probable that...." at which point the producer cuts me off. "Look, Ric. Our audience are not scientists. They need to believe that you believe in what you're doing. They need to know that you think that you're right about this." So Robert asked the question again and I tried a shorter, less qualified answer. The producer: "Better, but it needs to be even shorter and more definite. I need like a five second bite" So I said, "I'm absolutely convinced that we have solved the mystery". "Good. Now this time I want you to look straight into the camera and be very definite. And the result is what you saw on television. No apologies. Am I really "absolutely convinced that we have solved the mystery?" Do I really think that we have the right place? Am I utterly convinced that Nikumaroro will eventually yield up the "smoking gun" Tom Crouch (of the Smithsonian) and everyone else is waiting for? You better believe it. I couldn't do this if I felt otherwise, because it requires absolute conviction to keep going in the face of not enough funding, vilification by critics, not enough funding, disappointing research results, not enough funding, frivolous lawsuits from disgruntled media, not enough funding, killer storms, buried engines, and bills and salaries that don't get paid on time, because there's not enough funding. I'm not looking for sympathy. I asked for this. And I don't have any qualms about telling people that I think we're right. But I also recognize the difference between personal conviction and historical proof. I learned that lesson the hard way back in 1992 when I tried to convince the world that we had "solved" the Earhart mystery with the evidence we had at that time. On the Discovery show you'll see a clip of me announcing to a packed press conference that "the case is closed." Big mistake. It's the difference between saying, "I believe there is a God." and saying, "I can prove there is a God." What I said for ABC was intended as the former, but I knew when I said it that some would take as the latter. And that brings me to the last point I want to make. Because we have no endowment or grants but must raise all of our funding from either charitable contributions from the public or from media rights fees (ABC paid half of the cost of the expedition for the right to film it) we are forced to market our product - the search for Amelia Earhart - much as AE had to market herself to fund her flying. To do that means always making a careful distinction between show business and research. We go to extraordinary (some have called them obnoxious) lengths to keep television representations of our work accurate and honest, but television is theater, no matter how much the documentary makers try to convince us otherwise. So even though I am "absolutely convinced that we have solved the mystery," I'm also absolutely convinced that I can be (and frequently am) wrong. I'm looking forward to the day when we can lay the "smoking gun" on Tom Crouch's desk and nobody has to ask me what I think I've done. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:51:47 EDT From: Michael Strickland Subject: Re: ABC News I caught the show on ABC News last night, and was very impressed! Great job, and kudos to all involved! I'm very eager to hear more about Niku III. I feel terrible; I will be in San Francisco the weekend AFTER all of you will be there, and cannot make it up this weekend. Maybe next time... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:13:57 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Shoe origin Deb wrote: > I, personally, am convinced that this shoe >heel found on the island did belong the Amelia -- who else could it have >belonged to? I'm not yet fully convinced that the shoe remnants belonged to Amelia, but the question is a valid one. Who, indeed, could that shoe have belonged to if NOT to Amelia or Fred. This occurred to me while watching the ABC show last night. (well done, Ric) Even if it is proven later that Amelia and Fred were NEVER on Niku, the mystery of Niku will remain... Who WAS there? Other than the natives who lived there sporadically, someone left a great deal of "trash" on that island, the type of "trash" that native Polynesians would not have access to, such as American shoes, aluminum aircraft parts, plexiglass and canned food. Curiouser and curiouser... Ric, I'm not clear on the LORAN station that was on the island. When was it installed, how long was it there? Was it an unmanned site, or were people there operating it? i.e., does the LORAN site represent an extended presence of human beings other than the natives, or were they just there to install it and then back again to remove it? I went to Blockbuster tonight, looking for the old Rosalind Russell flick "Flight to Freedom", and/or any of the TV movies or docu's about AE... they had none, and the child behind the counter had no idea who Amelia Earhart was, nor could she have cared less. [sigh] Tom ************************************************************** From Ric The Loran station (USCG Unit 92) was built in July-September 1944 and went on the air that December. It was manned by 25 Coasties and commanded by Ensign Charles Sopko. The station was de-activated a year later and disassembled in March of 1946. Before the discovery of the Tarawa File, as we call it (I like The Gallagher Papers better), we had to answer innumerable questions about whether the shoe remains we found might have belonged to one of the Coasties. Documentation that Gallagher had, in 1940, found similar shoe parts at what appears to be the same site pretty well answers that. As for Flight For Freedom, you'll probably have to order it from Belle & Blade as described in a recent posting. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:28:40 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: Songs If you're looking for any interesting songs to sing as you're trooping, don't forget to consult your musician-in-residence! I'm sure that I can find something thought-provoking!--Thanks, Gene Dangelo :) *************************************************************** From Ric We only perform original works, but we'd be honored if you'd favor us with your suggestions. Meanwhile, because there has been some recent discussion about television documentaries, you might enjoy this offering I put together during the last trip to commemorate the efforts of the ABC News film crew: Wait for the Camera (to the tune of the old folksong "Wait For the Wagon") We're gonna make a movie, A documentary. We don't do recreations. We do reality. But - Wait for the camera, Wait for the camera, Wait for the camera, And we'll see what we see. We never stage the action. We wouldn't fake a shot. We only shoot what happens. We go with what we've got. But - Wait for the camera, Wait for the camera, Wait for the camera, And we'll see what we see. We're uninvolved observers. Forget that we are here. Just go about your business, But do it over here! And - Wait for the camera, Wait for the camera, Wait for the camera, And we'll see what we see. We're Howie, Sam and Kenny, The pride of ABC. We'll be there in a minute, or two, or maybe three. So - Wait for the camera, Wait for the camera, Wait for the camera, And we'll see what we see. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:47:56 EDT From: Dustymiss Subject: Irishness and siblingless I thought I remembered reading in one of the transmissions that Fred was or was thought to be an only child - I must have been mistaken. I try to go back and read the back transmissions to verify my facts - but did not this time. As regards to his Irish Roots and his penchant for alcohol - yes - it was meant tongue in cheek. For any Irish members of TIGHAR whom I might have offended, I, myself am 1/3 Scottish and 1/3 Irish - the rest a mixture of German, French and Dutch - being able to trace my roots back (at least according to family legend) to George Bernard Shaw - himself and Irishman and a teetotaler. By the way - I'm the one who requested the samples of Fred and Amelia's handwriting and the color laser photo of the can label - they just arrived today - I thank you for your diligence and the alacrity with which you answered my request and I've already started the search. Keep up the good work. ************************************************************** From Ric I was sure you were kidding. The popular folklore about the expression teetotaler is that it dates from the temperance drives of the late 19th century when people were urged to sign pre- printed "pledges" that they would either be moderate in their drinking or they could check "T for Total Abstinence." Hence, a non-drinker was "T - Total." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:13:12 EDT From: Ken Feder Subject: ABC News Now that I've gotten a good look at you on the ABC special (which, I thought was terrific), might I suggest that for the movie we could get that Kramer feller from Seinfeld to play you? Or not...... Ken Feder 2103 ************************************************************* From Ric I'm probably the only citizen of the country who never watched Seinfeld, so I'm not sure what you're doing to me. It's just a shame that Harpo Marx is no longer around. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:05:38 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: T-total It never ceases to amaze me what a source of fascinating information (even though sometimes not right on "topic") the Earhart forum continues to be! Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:05:57 EDT From: Chester Subject: Re: Absolutely convinced? I liked the way you responded. Based on information gathered so far, would you say that a major obstacle to contend with is "Not Enough Funding". just trying to keep it light, The media is something an undertaking of this magnitude probably requires for minimal funding needs, but could be better off if other avenues were available. Love to Mother Chester #2160 ******************************************************** From Ric No shit. ******************************************************* From Sam Ginder Ric: Good reply and good for you! Sam Ginder ******************************************************* From Dustymiss Bravo, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:29:51 EDT From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Semantic caution > ... that Fred was or was thought to be an only child" Just to put in my two cents, here... This is a *very* unsubstantiated and speculative statement to make at this time, (as hindsight shows us others have been in the past). And we really need to be careful about statements made that are not "proven"... especially putting out to the forum. It has the potential to just put "fuel on the fire." Please don't misunderstand me, Ric..; I appreciate all the enthusiasm and good intent..., but we really need to be a little more discreet about what we "claim" or how we state our speculations... Accurate genealogy, as with any research, demands this. Sandy ************************************************************** From Ric Yes, we have to be constantly on our guard about allowing speculation to masquerade as fact. For example, we frequently refer to the "can label." There's little doubt that it's a label of some sort but we really aren't sure that it's from a can. We should refer to it as the "label fragment." I think we're all in agreement that we have no information one way or the other at this point as to whether Fred had any siblings. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:38:46 EDT From: Dustymiss Subject: Semantic caution II "T" meant total? Well, what d'ya know? Thanks. It just goes to show - you learn something new all the time. :> And speaking of learning something new, I just read the copy of TIGHAR TRACKS you were so kind to send along with the photo and letters - I was unaware that there is no contemporaneous evidence, to date, that confirms that Fred had a drinking problem. Quel Surprise. I'm sure you've tried to get the employment records on Fred from Pan Am. And they shed no light on this? Dustymiss ************************************************************* From Ric >"T" meant total? Well, what d'ya know? Thanks. It just goes to show - you >learn something new all the time. Ahhh, but that's not what I said. I can't cite a good reference for that tidbit. It's just something that I've often heard, so I described it as "folklore." It may or may not be true. You really gotta watch us scholarly types. We're always trying to cover our butts. We've not been able to uncover any Pan Am employment records. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:40:26 EDT From: Tom King Subject: Seinfeld and Harpo Re: I'm probably the only citizen of the country who never watched Seinfeld No you're not. There are at least two of us. Re: It's just a shame that Harpo Marx is no longer around. Remind me to show you my slide of the Marx Bro's digging a hole. We use it in training when we talk about using qualified archeological help. LTM TK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:44:19 EDT From: Tim Subject: Literary references I have a copy of Fred Goerner's The Search for Amelia Earhart, what is it that you want me to look for in it about Alcoholism and Fred. I also have a copy of Putnam's Soaring Wings, along with Sharon Garst's Amelia Earhart, Heroine of the Skies, anything in there you want. Tim ************************************************************** From Ric I too have a copy of Goerner's book. His allegations about Noonan's drinking are purely unsubstantiated anecdote. I'm looking for any mention of Fred Noonan having a drinking problem which predates Goerner's 1966 book. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:57:53 EDT From: S. Franklin Subject: Label fragment Maybe I'm missing something here. The image of the label fragment on your website contains a rectangle with some just barely legible writing on it. Is this a label identifying the artifact or is it part of the artifact itself? If the latter, what does it say? As for dragging canned bananas halfway around the world to the South Pacific, this strikes me as roughly equivalent to carrying coals to Newcastle. I would think you'd have better chances of success showing the label to the inhabitants of the Pacific nations through which AE flew. *************************************************************** From Ric The letters are part of the label and say ROWER PRODUCE. We can see just a hint of a letter before the first R and we strongly suspect that it was a G, making the worlds GROWER PRODUCE. The layout of the label also suggests that there was at least one other word before what we can see. For example: it may have originally said INDEPENDENT GROWER PRODUCE, but that's just a guess. As far as dragging canned bananas halfway around the world - that's not speculation. We know from an inventory of the Electra taken after the Luke Field crash (which happened during a takeoff for Howland Island), that a bag of what appears to be emergency rations included two cans of "ripe banana." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:06:39 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Discovery Show times Discovery Signature Series The Search for Amelia Earhart Follow an intrepid researcher to a remote island where he thinks Amelia Earhart landed her plane. Air Time(s) Eastern/Pacific Time: DSC - 07 Jul 1998 - 10:00 PM DSC - 07 Jul 1998 - 02:00 AM [I assume this means 08 Jul at 2 a.m.] DSC - 12 Jul 1998 - 03:00 PM Are you intrepid, Ric? Tom *************************************************************** From Ric Let's see. Webster defines intrepid as: "not alarmed; unafraid; bold; fearless, dauntless; very brave" Nah. That storm scared me shitless. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:09:40 EDT From: Tom Robison Subject: Non-Seinfelders >I'm probably the only citizen of the country who never watched Seinfeld, There's at least two of us, Ric Tom ************************************************************* From Ric We're up to three now. You, me and Tom King. I suspect a trend. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:14:53 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: More Non-Seinfelders >I'm probably the only citizen of the country who never watched Seinfeld.... No, there are two. I caught the show. A lot of stuff I was glad to get to see. Have you had a chance to examine the label fragment for striations, etc? ************************************************************* From Ric Uh oh. I'm getting a bad feeling about this. Let's just acknowledge that lots of us never watched Seinfeld. Yes. There are striations on the label fragment. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:30:22 EDT From: Mike Subject: AE (what else...) Enjoyed the show... looking forward to Tuesday's version. A question: If I understand it all correctly, your focus at the moment is to 1) Check out a different area of Niku where you haven't searched, presumably for the aircraft in the crash photo; and look for the Canton engine. If I may play devils advocate, I've read and enjoyed many of the AE books, and someone's bound to point out that AE crashing on Gardner does not rule out her being captured by the Japanese, becoming Irene Bolan, etc. I guess what I'm saying is that finding the plane does not solve the entire mystery. (At least, not without bones sitting at the controls! Hope you are spared that...) It would of course lay many stories to rest, (I'm thinking of the Saipan thing with Forrestal, or crashed at sea) and that is undoubtably worth doing. So anyway, I'm interested in your response to this. Is TIGHAR specifically after discovery of the plane only, or after the whole mystery? Or do we take what we can get? *************************************************************** From Ric Your understanding is correct, but add that we'll be looking for more remains and artifacts associated with the site where the bones were found in 1940. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that there's more stuff there. Diehard conspiracy advocates will never be dissuaded, no matter what we find or where we find it. A basic understanding of the geo/political situation in the Central Pacific in 1937 makes it clear that, if Earhart and Noonan did end up on Gardner, the notion that Japanese authorities of some description would venture more than a thousand miles into British territory to abduct her in peacetime is ludicrous. We are interested in finding anything that helps fills out the picture of what really happened - whether it's on Gardner, Saipan or New Jersey. No. I take that back. There will be no expedition to New Jersey. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:36:08 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Message from Strippel HI, GANG-- IF YOU HAVE BETTER CITES THAN SHOWB ON THIS, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. OTHERWISE, KNOW THAT I"M NOT THE STUPID JERK RIC WOULD LIKE YOU TO THINK I AM!!!!!! ==DICK P.S. TO BARBARA WILEY- PLEASE E-MAIL ME SOON 73-DICK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:58:54 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Noonan & Chicago Ron Dawson wrote: >This from the New Orleans Times-Picayune: > >July 6, 1937: CAPTAIN NOONAN ONCE LIVED HERE > >Amelia Earhart's Navigator Quit Sea for Airplanes. >That Captain Fred J. Noonan, a former resident of New Orleans and employee of >the Mississippi Shipping Company left the lure of the sea for that of the air... This might be the Chicago connection, via that canal, we once discussed here. Incidentally, it looks to me like a pretty hard way to the Mississippi River from Chicago. It must be a man made canal from the lake then a long way via the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal/Illinois River to the Mississippi River just above St. Louis. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:00:52 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Discovery AE Search I presume everyone remembers the Discovery version of The Search for Amelia Earhart to air Tuesday, July 7th. It's listed here at 9 PM CDT and repeats at 1 AM Wed. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:09:01 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Tin can research In anticipation of our possibly having to research tin can corrugations, I've done just a little looking at what I could lay my hands on easily. All I have is some impressions at this point but I did come across a bit of information that may be of some interest. It sounds like it might be true. A book titled, "The Fine Art of the Tin Can." says: "The old British term 'tinned can' derived from the term 'tinned cannister,' is more accurate than our common term 'tin can.' Tin cans are made of tinned steel -- steel plated with tin. The steel provides strength and economy, and the tin resists rust and corrosion. "The process of tinning iron was invented in Bohemia at the beginning of the sixteenth century. The earliest tin cans were made from tinned iron so thick and strong that soldiers often resorted to bayonets and hammers to open them." Somewhere along the way they changed to steel and were able to make it much thinner. It's also interesting to note that all of the development of canning and preserving technology was driven by the need to feed military forces in the field. Jackie Ferrari could enlighten us as to what our "tin can" is called in Britain today. Somehow I have the idea the British may speak of a "tin" of something or other. Possibly more misleading than our "tin can" seeming to suggest a container made of tin! And I wonder what the Australians may call a "tin can?" *************************************************************** From Ric Ms. Ferrari is no longer on the forum but we have several members who reside in the mother country as well as a few down under. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:08:49 EDT From: Jeff Subject: The Colorado's search I caught the ABC show last week and have a question. I realize we will likely never know what the Navy pilot saw that he described as clear signs of habitation. But do we know why or can you make a reasonable guess as to why the ships Captain did not investigate? If he was out looking for Amelia and checking several islands, what WOULD have made him investigate, a neon sign? And why after not finding anything else even remotely suggesting where they had ended up, didn't the Navy EVER go back and check Gardner? ************************************************************* From Ric The searchers from the USS Colorado were specifically looking for an airplane or airplane wreckage. I think we can be sure that whatever they saw on the ground didn't look like an airplane nor did it look to them like Amelia and Fred. We have to remember that this was a hastily organized (make that semi-organized) rescue effort. Colorado was shanghaied for the search in the middle of its annual ROTC training cruise and had 196 college students plus four disgruntled university VIPs aboard. The week-long voyage south from Honolulu had been rough. Gardner was searched on the first flight launched once they reached the Phoenix Group. Should Capt. Friedell have heaved to and spent a day checking out the "signs of recent habitation" reported by the aviators? Or should he have continued to send the planes over the other islands where the Electra might be waiting on the beach, its crew nearly dead from thirst? Once all of the Phoenix Islands had been searched from the air, Colorado was relieved by the carrier USS Lexington. Friedell was under the impression that Lexington would continue to search the Phoenix Group, but the captain of the carrier decided to focus his search on the open ocean northwest of Howland. Thus by accident, rather than by negligence, what was acknowledged to be the most likely place never got thoroughly searched. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:18:24 EDT From: C. Spear Subject: Shoes and heels I'm relatively new to TIGHAR, thus my question/comment may have been asked many times before: After learning the shoe/boot heel found on Gardner Island was a size larger than AE's "regular" shoe size, has anyone considered the possibility she might have purchased her flight shoes/boots a size larger (as is often common practice) in order to wear heavy socks? Was the interior temperature of the aircraft consistently cool/cold enough at her flying altitude for her to consider such? Several months ago, when the famous shoe/boot maker G.H. Bass (of Wilton, ME), was closing down, a news report recounted how ADM Byrd and Charles Lindbergh both wore Bass ("flying"?) boots. Was brand name recognition of such import in the 30s that AE might have also purchased/owned a pair? And if so, might Bass have contracted to use Cat's Paw rubber heels? Having worn Bass shoes years ago, I recall the heels were almost always leather, yet on shoes/boots to be worn in or on an aircraft, it would seem rubber would have been much safer (less prone to skid or slide) and less damaging to an aircraft's aluminum skin. Again, I suppose a question oft asked before. I found the ABC News Special to be informative... and to see video of the people and places of TIGHAR was wonderful. CS ************************************************************** From Ric The size of the shoes AE wore during her last flight is not a matter of speculation. We can measure them in the photograph. The reason she wore shoes larger than her dress shoes is unknown but your comments certainly seem logical. Cat's Paw heels were almost always replacement heels, as they are today. The photos of AE's shoes seem to suggest that the heels had been recently replaced. We haven't tried to identify the manufacturer of the shoes she was wearing because it hasn't seemed worth the effort it would take , but I guess it might be possible. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:21:42 EDT From: Bill Zorn Subject: Re: Message from Strippel I do wish Mister Strippel would at least give us the illusion that he is reading his messages before he sends them. I'm no master speller myself, but that last message was rather thick **************************************************************** From Ric I know that Dick has had some health problems and I try to fix up the spelling where I can, but I couldn't figure out that last one either. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:25:36 EDT From: Dustymiss Subject: Re: Semantic caution II I am well rebuked - I took "no indication of other siblings" in the "Noonan Jackpot" correspondence of 06-30-98 as fact even though it has not been substantiated either way. And "T-" meaning "total" from you as fact - not folklore -henceforth - while engaging in TIGHAR correspondence, I will mind my phraseology more closely and never prematurely factualize unsubstantiated statements, folklore, nor the like, again. :> By the way - I read in a book called "The Versatiles" by Alfred E. Twomey and Arthur McClure - subtitled "A study of supporting character actors and actresses in the American motion Picture of 1930-1955", that Eugene Pallette served in the Army Air Corps during WW I. But, perhaps you already knew that. Some pages were missing so, I don't know the date the book was published - but I do know it's out of print according to www.amazon.com. Dustymiss ************************************************************** From Ric You're a good sport Dusty. No, I didn't know that Pallette had served in the air corps. That could explain his interest in aviation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:44:49 EDT From: Tet Subject: Tin cans As an expatriate Brit. the word most often used is "tin". as in "Let's open a tin of tuna". However, beer comes in CANS and is called such. Years ago we had a saying "Americans eat all the food they can, and what they can't, they can" Love to Mother. Tet ************************************************************* From Ric Okay. Here's another one. Is the term PRODUCE, meaning fresh fruits and vegetables, used in Australia and New Zealand? More to the point, was it used that way in the mid-1930s? We've had a couple of opinions but I'd like to hear more. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:54:46 EDT From: Chris Greenberg Subject: Re: Noonan Search I've been helping out with the Noonan search here in Los Angeles and am finding a great deal of information; hopefully some of it will be useful. The LA County Central Library has a fantastic history department and I've been checking newspaper articles from 1936 and 1937 in the New York Times, The LA Times and even the London Times. They all have articles specifically categorized by 'Amelia Earhart', 'Mrs. A E Putnam', and 'Aeronautics/World Flights', but nothing categorizing Noonan or George Putnam by themselves. I made a list of about 35 articles that the library is digging up for me today on microfilm, and will hopefully be able to get back downtown sometime tomorrow. Incidentally, I plan on checking the Hollywood Hall of Fame for information on our boy Eugene Pallette. Will let you know. I apologize that my portion of the Noonan search is taking a little longer than I expected, I'll try to get it done with all haste. Blue skies- Chris Greenberg- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:03:48 EDT From: Michael Strickland Subject: Re: The Colorado's search The pilot from the Colorado found 'signs of recent habitation,' but no plane. Yet reports (as described on the ABC show last week) from later inhabitants of Gardner tell of a plane wreck on the reef. If this wreck really existed, and was right there on the reef, how would the Colorado pilot miss it? Doesn't this point toward the explanation that it couldn't have been AE's plane, since it wasn't there when the Colorado conducted its search? Either the reports are false testimonials from islanders who want their Warholian 15 minutes and there was no plane, or there was a plane, and it wasn't AE's, because it didn't show up until later. (Of course, there's the remote third possibility, that the pilot didn't see it, even though it was there, and the obvious and likely fourth possibility, that I am not nearly as familiar with all of this as you, and there is an explanation I haven't thought of.) *************************************************************** From Ric The fourth possibility strikes again. According to the Funafuti anecdotes, there was some scattered wreckage (i.e. "a piece of a wing") on the reef, but the airplane wreckage was back in the dense vegetation along the shoreline. We know that there was a good surf running over the reef-flat during the aerial search, so scattered wreckage in the water could be virtually impossible to see. Anything washed back into the beachfront vegetation would be so hard to see that only a kid could find it, which is exactly what seems to have happened. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:28:23 EDT From: Tim Subject: Canton engine I'm a newbie to the forum and these questions may have already been answered but........ I am very intrigued and excited about Bruce's story in the latest issue of TIGHAR Tracks. 1. How sure are we that the engine he recovered is the 550 hp P & W? Does Bruce know enough about the differences to be able to identify it as such? 2. Given the corroded condition of the engine, will we be able to connect the engine to AE's Electra? Where is the serial# located on the engine? Was this # stamped on any other internal engine parts? When is the return trip planned? Tim ************************************************************* From Ric 1. Bruce is a licensed aircraft mechanic. At that time he was fresh out of school and had been working on the 550 hp P&W as part of his training. 2. Depends on how bad the corrosion is. Earhart's engines had a data plate on the back side of the case. The crankshaft and cams were also individually stamped with their own serial numbers. Seems like some numbers should survive. We're presently looking into a possible return to Kanton with a government agency. I'll say more about that when I can. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:03:18 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Lack of posts It's not you guys, it's us. Regular service will resume on July 8. Thanks for your patience. TIGHAR ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:43:00 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Posting Again Sorry for the delay in posting messages guys. I wanted to get an overview of he search for Earhart written and mounted on our website in time for the anticipated increase in traffic generated by the Discovery Channel show last night. I got it done and mounted, but I'm afraid that the forum suffered. My fault. Anybody know where I can get myself cloned? Anyway, I'm back on the job now. You may want to go and take a look at what I put together as an overview. Just go to the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org and go to the Earhart Project. The link to the overview is right there. You can't miss it. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:44:00 EDT From: Russ Matthews Subject: Re: Message from Strippel >KNOW THAT I"M NOT THE STUPID JERK RIC WOULD LIKE YOU TO THINK I AM!!!!!! You're doing a fine job all by yourself, Dick. Love to Mother Russ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:50:48 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Re: tin can research Yes, Vern we generally use the term "tin" over here.... tin of beans, tin of ripe bannanas even. The term tin is - I guess - a sort of synonym for "container" or "packet". You're right of course - the term is misleading. What'd you generally call them over there ? Simon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:55:21 EDT From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Re: AE's shoe size Ric wrote: >The size of the shoes AE wore during her last flight is not a matter of >speculation. We can measure them in the photograph. The reason she wore >shoes larger than her dress shoes is unknown but your comments certainly seem >logical. Amelia wore larger shoes because she had trouble with her feet swelling *a lot* when she flew. She was very self-conscious about her "thick ankles" - if you look at airfield photos of her where she's wearing skirts, you can spot the problem. In some pictures her ankles appear much larger than in others. Love to Mother, Amanda ************************************************************** From Ric Sounds good Amanda. Gimme some references - Amelia complaining about her feet swelling or about her thick ankles. Contemporaneous written sources. This could be the reply we've been looking for to the critics who maintain that AE had small feet. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:03:44 EDT From: Michael Strickland Subject: Re: The Colorado's search Ric wrote: > The fourth possibility strikes again. According to the Funafuti anecdotes, > there was some scattered wreckage (i.e. "a piece of a wing") on the reef, but > the airplane wreckage was back in the dense vegetation along the shoreline. > We know that there was a good surf running over the reef-flat during the > aerial search, so scattered wreckage in the water could be virtually > impossible to see. Anything washed back into the beachfront vegetation would > be so hard to see that only a kid could find it, which is exactly what seems > to have happened. Interesting, Ric... thanks for shedding light on this for me. Is the reason for the wreckage being located in the vegetation theorized to be because the plane may have crashed in the surf, bounced off the reef and came to rest in the trees; or because it crashed on the reef, and was later washed ashore by the surf? I know the ocean can move large objects like a plane wreck (especially after seeing the surf on the ABC special); however, it seems just as possible that the plane may have crashed into the vegetation after bouncing off the reef and leaving pieces (such as a wing) behind as it did so. Are there any theories or anecdotal evidence that lead you to believe the plane crashed on the reef and was washed ashore versus crashing into the trees after landing on and impacting/bouncing off of the reef? (Apologies if this topic has already been covered.) *************************************************************** From Ric Yes, we've covered it before (ad nauseum) but we have many new subscribers to the forum and good questions don't get less good just because they've been asked before. We theorize that the airplane was landed successfully out on the reef-flat and then, after a couple of days, increased wave/surf action busted it up and threw the main body of wreckage into the dense shoreline vegetation. We think that this scenario is more likely than a crash because: 1. If any of the post-loss radio signals are genuine, the airplane must be intact for the first two days after it disappears. 2. The discovery of a castaway's campsite and bones on a different part of the island from where the wreckage was reported seen suggests that the crew survived the arrival. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:06:25 EDT From: Jim Walrath Subject: Re: The Colorado's search Responding to Michael Strickland's observations. As I read through TIGHAR's research a hypothetical scene such as this seemed plausible. According to TIGHAR Tracks V.13, #1/2, p.34, the overflight of Gardner Is. didn't take place until one week after the disappearance. A message was reported by U. S. Navy Radio, Wailupe, Hawaii, July 4, 1937. If an assumption is made that this transmission came from Gardner Is. and was Earhart or Noonan, the comments WON'T HOLD WITH US MUCH LONGER...ABOVE WATER...SHUT OFF would have significance. This is only conjecture to paint a scenario but the first phrase could indicate that the plane was at or close to the water's edge and slipping/being washed to sea. The second phrase indicates it is above water at the time. The third is that the engine will be shut off, thus no power from the generator for transmissions. Within a short time the plane could have been washed into the lagoon, before the search plane arrived five days later, and been difficult to see with a heavy surf, as indicated. Also, if either of the aviator's were ill or injured, with limited water they could have a short survival time. They would have sought shelter and been difficult to see by an airborne observer, with the possibility of either too ill, or already dead, to move out from the shelter to open areas upon hearing an airplane. Jim Walrath Love to Mother *************************************************************** From Ric Your proposed scenario pretty much agrees with ours. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:13:21 EDT From: Jim Tierney Subject: Noonan & Chicago Yes it is a long way from Chicago to NO on the Big River-- But during the BIG WAR they built Submarines and Large Landing craft in Wis. and Mich. and floated them down the river without much difficulty.... Jim Tierney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:19:26 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: New song Very nice, indeed! Now here's one for you, sung to the tune of "Let It Snow, let It Snow, Let it Snow! (With apologies to the authors!): Oh, Amelia Earhart was flightful, And our Forum's so insightful, But one thing we'd all like to know... Where'd she go? Where'd she go? Where'd she go? Although some people underrate her And good Fred, her navigator, TIGHAR'S scholars quite soon may know, Where'd she go? Where'd she go? Where'd she go? With the evidence from each site And the other good leads they have found, They're assembling Amelia's plight: Where'd her Electra go down? Well, for now I'll stop all this croonin' About Earhart and Fred Noonan, But to Ric, I'll say, "Way to go!" Soon we'll know, soon we'll know, soon we'll know! ------------------------------------- Thanks for your indulgence, --Gene Dangelo, Composer-In-Residence :) **************************************************************** From Ric Outstanding! That'll teach me to challenge a professional. For Tom King, We're obviously going to have to start a Songs of the Earhart Forum collection. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:28:33 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Re: The Colorado's search >Friedell was under the impression that Lexington would continue to search the >Phoenix Group, but the captain of the carrier decided to focus his search on the >open ocean northwest of Howland. I do not believe this allegation is correct, as there is no evidence I am aware of that supports this contention. Can you substantiate this claim, Ric? *************************************************************** From Ric Don't mince words Randy. Just say what you mean. I know that I got this impression from reading Friedell's report. Unfortunately, right now my copies of all the search reports are off being digitized for the Earhart Research CD-ROM project. As soon as I get them back I'll dig into this point and either show you where I got the notion or confess my error and beg forgiveness. Love to mother ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:41:21 EDT From: Jack Subject: Noonan Some tid-bits for the Noonan puzzle. Just received a note from an old friend named Del Freret that sailed with FN in 1930/31. FN sailed as mate for Delta Shipping Co., running out of New Orleans down to South America. My friend said FN was a good mate and he does not recall that he was "boozy." In 1937, Del was working for Eastern and saw that AE was to take off from MIA. He went out to see the take-off and found that his friend FN was navigator. He spoke to FN and AE but did not go near the airplane. I had asked Del other questions about the L-10 and they (EA) had one at the time. He indicated the trailing antenna was 80 feet long. Del ended up chief radio operator in Jackson, Ms. then went with Aeronautical Radio. LTM, jack ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Jack. The more we learn about Captain Noonan the more I suspect that all this alcoholism stuff is pure folklore (not to say libel). The maritime records recently obtained by Jerry Hamilton document a nautical career of steady advancement until, by 1931, Fred has a Master's license - steam and motor, any gross tonnage, any ocean and First Class Pilot on the Mississippi. Quite a boy was our Fred. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:47:55 EDT From: Pete Subject: Re: Earhart Bibliography Some years ago, I wrote a novel about Amelia Earhart called The Earhart Mission. It was published by Simon & Schuster in 1980. In order to research the subject, I acquired an extensive library of books by and about her, including some interesting ones with inscriptions by AE. If the list of books is of any interest I can compile it and make available to you or others any which you might otherwise have difficulty finding. *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks. I'd love to see it. We try to stay on top of the list of books but new ones (and old ones) are always popping up. Given your extensive collection, you may be able to help with a particular point of research. We can't find a printed anecdote alleging that Noonan had a drinking problem that predates Fred Goerner's 1966 bestseller. Can you? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:18:38 EDT From: S. Franklin Subject: Re: Tin can research Come to think of it, wasn't there a point at which the ribs on the can indicated what was in it, to prevent confusion at the processing plant before the labels were affixed? Or is this apocryphal? I realize the label's incomplete, but the distance between ribs might be used, at the least, to determine the broad category of the food (assumption) that was in it. Also, archaeologists are fine, but keep in mind that there are also collectors of all kinds of strange things, including tin cans, out there. As an aside, do you think he's using all caps to simulate the form of a telegram? Kind of trying to get us into the mood? **************************************************************** From Ric We've tried the collector route with no luck. The striations (corrugation?), are an eighth of an inch apart and are three dimensional- that is - the paper actually is indented. I've never heard that the corrugations on a can any significance beyond adding rigidity. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:22:55 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Stereotypes Being Scotch-Irish from one side and Holland Dutch from the other, I think I have just a little license... And I can't resist although I suspect you've all heard it before. It has been said that God invented whisky so the Irish wouldn't rule the world. You can't argue with that, it worked! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:39:57 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Striations >Yes. There are striations on the label fragment. So... What do they look like to you? What do you think produced them? Depending on what the striations may look like... (From Ric: I'll answer Vern's questions as we go.) 1. Are they visible on the front, or back, or on both sides? Both sides 2. It appears you have part of the top edge of the label. Are the striations parallel to that edge -- parallel to the line of lettering? Yes. 3. Are the striations just poor printing? No. 4. Are they smudged streaks produced by the way the label was rolled or wiped on? No. 5. Are the striations actually sort of creases from being pressed into corrugations such as are on virtually all canned goods today? The kind of creases you see if you soak the label off such a can. But still visible after being buried for years? You got it. 6. Or are they abrasion marks from jostling around with other things in a bag? Abrasion would be greater where the corrugation ridges were. No. 7. About 5/8 inch at each end of a can is without corrugations. Does that fit what you see on the label fragment? Yes. 8. Do the striations fit any of the corrugation patterns we see today ranging from close spaced (about 1/8 inch apart) to a few corrugations half an inch or more apart and a 2 lb, 7 oz coffee can that may have only three corrugations widely spaced. The corrugations are 1/8 inch apart. 9. Are the striations just glue marks, or abrasion marks where stripes of glue added just a little thickness? No, they are three dimensional indentations. 10. Are the striations the result of something done to the fragment after it was found? Perhaps something associated with cleaning it up a bit and/or drying it. No. Hey! Have fun in California and may it be a very productive weekend! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:48:00 EDT From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Tin can research We call "tin cans" the same as you lot on the other side of the Pacific...i.e. "tin cans" unless they contain beer which we call "tinnies" even if they are aluminium. Seriously, "tin cans" over here are cans made of steel sandwiched between two layers of tin. In the 30's we also referred to tin cans which contained petrol, these were the days before the "jerry can". The term PRODUCE was used more often to describe fresh fruit, vegetables and even cereals in the 1930's than it is today. Hope this helps. Regards David ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:24:58 EDT From: Mike Subject: Geopolitics >A basic understanding of the geo/political situation in > the Central Pacific in 1937 makes it clear that, if Earhart and Noonan did end > up on Gardner, the notion that Japanese authorities of some description would > venture more than a thousand miles into British territory to abduct her in > peacetime is ludicrous. I can't remember whose book it was, but didn't somebody show a single frame from a Navy film of Hull island during the search period which revealed what appeared to be a Japanese flag on the beach? (It was not visible when viewing the movie normally.) Also, I'd have to say that it is more believable that they would pursue and abduct her if any of the theories about photographic missions were true. (I'm not trying to divert the group into conspiracy theory here, just making my point.) The geopolitical situation was that Japan was trying to keep fortifications in the Mandates secret. And a thousand miles into a sparsely-habited island area is not like a thousand miles thru cities and farms. Is there any hope of locating the bones that were shipped off? Does Amelia have any currently living close relatives so that DNA analysis would be useful? **************************************************************** From Ric You've been reading conspiracy books. The geopolitical situation in the Central Pacific was not as it has been represented by the various conspiracy authors. Postwar examination of Japanese records has established that no fortifications had been built or were under construction in the mandated territories at the time of the Earhart disappearance. Although official inspections were not permitted, Western tourists and visitors were not prohibited. In short, there was nothing for Earhart to spy on and no need to stage an elaborate ruse to find out that nothing was there. Describing the 1937 geopolitical situation in the British Gilbert & Ellice Islands Colony, which included the Phoenix Islands, in the context of Japanese interests is a bit like talking about slaves and plantations when describing pre-Civil War Maine. What was really going on in that part of the Pacific was huge squabble between the U.S. and Great Britain over who owned various uninhabited islands which might be used as refueling points for the contemplated transpacific commercial air routes to New Zealand and Australia. British cruisers were running around putting up flags and placards on islands, declaring them to be the property of His Majesty, while the U.S. Dept of the Interior was sending token groups of employees on Coast Guard cutters to establish occupation of other islands. Today we tend to see everything that happened in the Pacific in the '30s in the context of December 7, 1941. It wasn't like that. The supposed photo of a Japanese flag on Hull Island (which had a British administrator in residence at the time) appeared in Joe Klaas' classic 1970 fantasy "Amelia Earhart Lives!" Seeing the flag in the flock of birds in the photo is like seeing an elephant in a cloud formation, and just as significant. We're trying to relocate the bones, but no luck so far. Amelia has living relatives in the female line which could be a source of mitochondrial DNA for comparison. We're trying to find a similar source for Noonan. That's why you see so much Noonan research on the forum. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:30:27 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Colorado search I got the impression from a Colorado crew member interviewed on your show that the ship was in visual distance of Niku. Is that true? ************************************************************* From Ric At her closest approach, Colorado came with something like nine miles - enough to make out the island through binoculars. Having been there and done that, I can tell you that you don't see much. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:43:23 EDT From: Andrew Subject: Skull Scale Hope this gets to you (by that I mean this message!) I'm an Architect and spend all my time working with scales! One of the things I often have to do is establish the relative size of things when no actual scale for a given object is known. (Sites, Building plans, toilet stalls, etc.) I believe the same is true of your investigation into Dr. Hoodless's measurements. Here is a blurb about a possible way to do a preliminary check.... Re: Scull Scale Had a thought about your requirement for exact measurements of adjacent objects in order to compare sculls of AE and FN. It seems to me that one could at least begin to see if this is at all worth it by first scaling each head to themselves and then to the doctor's measurements. By this I mean the following. Create a 'mug shot' set of either Amelia or Fred from the examples you have chosen by scaling the photos so that the profile equals the frontal shot or each. The photos of Amelia look better than those of Fred for this exercise due to the fact her profile shot has an upright attitude consistent with her frontal shot. Having established that her front and side views are of the same 'scale' to each other, one of the measurements given in the report of Dr. Hoodless could be superimposed on the image. For example, this could be the 'overall length' measurement. Her 'mug shot' can now be scaled to be correct to this measurement. Once this is achieved, the 'mugshot' is, in effect, correct to scale to this measurement. The other measurements can now be overlaid at the same scale and would indicate if things such as 'overall width' or 'height and breadth of the orbits' appear to fall where they should on her mug shot. If not, try the same exercise with Fred. If it is found that the 'relative' scale of the measurements is consistent with either Fred or Amelia, I would then pursue the attempt at 'precise' scale exercise of their heads via parker pens and wheel diameters or whatever, in order to further prove the possibility that one of their remains was indeed discovered in 1940. Let me know if the above is clear and/or at all useful. Regards, Andrew Thorpe, 2135 *************************************************************** From Ric Your description is both clear and useful. Thank you. We did something very similar with the Wreck Photo. We had nothing in the picture to establish scale, but we knew that IF the airplane is a Lockheed 10, the prop is nine feet long. (Just as we know that IF the skull measured by Hoodless was Fred's, it was 137 mm wide.) We then scaled the engine cowling diameter and cowling opening based upon that assumption to see if we got the right dimensions for a Lockheed 10E. We did. That doesn't make the airplane in the photo a 10E but it means that its engine is proportionately correct for a 10E. In theory, we might be able to use the same technique to find out whether the skull was proportionately correct for either Earhart or Noonan. Of course, if we can get the scale nailed down through identifying and measuring known objects, so much the better. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:02:13 EDT From: Skip Subject: New member questions I am new to this type of discussion group, so excuse me if I don't follow all the guidelines in discussing Amelia Earhart. From the very beginning when I first read "Last Flight," back in the 50s, I have been fascinated with the story of Amelia Earhart and what happened to her. I read and save everything relating to her disappearance. I found the article in the National Geographic, January 1998, and the latest ABC news program on your trip to Gardner Island fascinating. So naturally, I have some questions that have never been answered and some comments other statements or facts. 1. In Fred Goerner's Book, The Search for Amelia Earhart, he states that in the files in Washington, was the message "LAND IN SIGHT." This message was attributed to be the last message received from Amelia, but was never given to the public. Was this message in fact, a legitimate message from Amelia, or was it just another hoax? If this message was authentic, then it would add credence to your search. 2. At the time of Amelia's flight, the chart that they used to pinpoint Howland Island position wasn't accurate. It was supposedly off by many miles. This would basically account for them missing Howland. Do these charts still exist somewhere so that they could be compared to the present day charts which might show how far off course they were? 3. Why wasn't the direction finder on board the Itasca made known to Earhart? Comments: My personal feelings regarding the USS Colorado is that Roosevelt didn't want Earhart found until it had an opportunity to search islands that were associated with the Japanese. He wouldn't have had an excuse if we had located her. Same is true regarding Pearl Harbor. He knew that the Japanese were going to attack days before they did and did nothing to stop them. He wanted this country in the war and the only way Congress would have allowed it is by being attacked. This may be a conspiracy, but I don't think so. I personally think you are on the right track. I believe that Earhart is on Gardner Island as it is the only island close enough for her to get to after missing Howland. I will be watching Discovery channel tonight as I wouldn't miss anything regarding her disappearance. I would love to be on the next expedition to Gardner Island as I am sure most fans of her would. Thanks, Skip ************************************************************** From Ric 1. I would love to believe Goerner's LAND IN SIGHT AHEAD story but it just doesn't make sense that archivists would alter a document. 2. Actually, there were several different published locations for Howland Island, all within four or five miles of each other. As far as I know, nobody can say for sure whether Earhart had the correct coordinates and it's highly debatable whether being off by five miles would make much difference in a 2,500 mile plus flight anyway. every time somebody finds out some new little tidbit of information about the Earhart flight they want to make it the KEY TO THE MYSTERY. We've uncovered dozens of new facts, and they're just more pieces that help complete the puzzle. 3. The direction finder aboard the Itasca WAS made known to Earhart. It's the experimental (no, not secret) high-frequency DF set up on Howland that AE didn't seem to know about. Nobody knows for sure why it wasn't mentioned to her, but because it was known that she would be sending transmissions anyway, there was no particular reason that she needed to know about it. If Roosevelt didn't want Earhart found until the Navy had an opportunity to search islands that were associated with the Japanese, why didn't they search any islands associated with the Japanese? I won't offer any opinion about what or when FDR knew about Pearl Harbor because that's not my knitting. Earhart is - and my opinion is that Roosevelt personally had absolutely nothing to do with the search for Amelia. Love to mother, Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:01:08 EDT From: unknown Subject: Gardner Island search Why can't we put our own volunteer/ Robinson Crusoe/ archeologist on the Gardner for a year with appropriate provisions and tools, a metal detector, and web access? In today's high tech world he could report to us daily and in a year of searching the island, get to know it so well that he would certainly solve the mystery! I'm sure we could find a volunteer, and he would accomplish much more than ever could be accomplished in the every -two -year hit and run searches to date. I would think that ten thousand dollars would provision him/her for a year, and such an interesting and unique type search would be funded by a tv news organization hungry for a story. It should also be cheaper than funding a whole team for a short time. We really need finish the Island search as soon as possible and move on. (I will donate to this venture!) ************************************************************** From Ric On the off chance that you're serious, let's look at the practicality of your suggestion. First we need to get the searcher to the island. The means a $1,000 ticket to Fiji and a (minimum) $3,000/day charter of a boat big enough to take him 1,000 miles across open ocean to Gardner. That'll take five days each way for a round trip ticket of $30,000. Then of course they'll have to go back and get him in a year, or recover his body, so that's another 30K. Now let's think about how a guy (or woman) is going to survive on Gardner for a year. Gotta have water. He can either build a huge cistern and hope it rains enough (some years it does, some years it doesn't), or it would be more reliable to have a desalinization system. If he likes fish and has a launch he can probably survive with just a few cases of supplemental canned or preserved food. Medical attention is going to be a crap shoot. All he needs to do is stumble and fall on the live coral and he'll have an instant life-threatening infection unless he treats it promptly and properly. The bottom line is, I think that you probably need to increase your budget by a factor of ten. The other problem is that anybody dumb enough to accept the job couldn't find anything anyway. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:36:12 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Ask ABC News I just received this noble and ill-considered offer from the Howie Masters, the producer of the recently rebroadcast ABC News special about our work. I'll forward to him any messages you have (within reason) and post his replies. Have at it gang. *************************************************************** Ric- Are there any responses, reviews, death threats arising from the last broadcast of the TIGHAR saga? I would be more than happy to offer up answers for those inquiring souls. Or at least some slick non-answers if I can't figure out what it is they want to know. If you care to, you can zap me some of the e-mail traffic and I will take it from there. Regards to everyone, Howie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 16:49:37 EDT From: John Dowlan Subject: No AE TV Show in West Central Florida! After waiting with great anticipation for the AE TV program, and although listed in the Tampa TV Sunday newspaper, it was not broadcast in the our area. A call to Time-Warner Cable advised it had been scratched by Discovery to make room for a Robin Leach comedy program. Perhaps they felt there was too much competition with the Baseball All-Star game in the same time slot. Wonder if this happened in other parts of the US and when the next Discovery showing will be? Quite a letdown. John Dowlan *************************************************************** From Ric I'm sorry John. First the fires and now this. It ain't fair. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:41:36 EDT From: LDJ Subject: Expedition How could one get to be a part of the 99 expedition to Nikumaroro? *************************************************************** From Ric As you might imagine, this is a Frequently Asked Question. The honest answer is, while the expedition team is not 100 percent set in concrete (which I've been tempted to do more than once), we don't take anyone out there whom we haven't known and worked with for a loooong time. Generally speaking, team members do not pay their own way nor are they big financial contributors to the project. They're people who have demonstrated a long term commitment to TIGHAR and whom we know can work well under extreme conditions. After five expeditions, we've distilled down a core group of volunteers who are knowledgeable about the project and about the island, and who function together better than most families. I'd be nuts to mess with that. At the same time, I can certainly understand anyone's desire to participate and I honestly wish there was a way to include more TIGHAR members in the field work. It sounds corny to say that everyone who contributes to the research and helps fund the expedition is part of the team, but it's the truth. Without the support of the TIGHAR membership there would be no expeditions and each of us on the boat is keenly aware that we represent all the other TIGHARs who put us there. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:43:24 EDT From: Wayne Wienecke Subject: Points and questions. I enjoyed the Discovery program, with the exception of what appears to be some poor statements, or misleading at best. I believe that TIGHAR came out real well, except it was hard to really define what progress had been made on the island.. I saw a lot of high tech gear, but no explanation of what it was used for in this regard. It was my belief that the batteries on the Itasca, regarding the ADF (installed on the Itasca) did not go dead, and that they were used during the major art of the trip. Do you have information in this regard. The propellers on the "Hawaii Crash" certainly appear to be in non-take-off pitch. Aircraft accidents can cause many disillusionments, and they could have been in the proper position, and when the crash occurred, lacking proper oil pressure could have been forced to the position that they were in after the accident. By our standards AE may not have been a perfect pilot, but I have to believe that prop control was one of her basic maneuvers, due to the length of the trip, the need to hit it, and the lack of other land around Howland. I also find it very difficult to believe that she ran out of gas prior to making Howland Island. I would like to point out that I am neither a "flew to water, or flew to land" proponent. My knowledge of this at this time is very weak, but I hope to learn well through the various Forums now available. Along with Mr. Willi, I agree that he missed the island, and the direction he turned cemented his fate. His lack of ability to determine east-west position was obviously paramount in his decision. I would like to believe that he turned south and found Gardner Island. If we are to believe that the radio messages that were sent after the downing of the aircraft, were in some-manner real, and not all bogus, it certainly seems to pinpoint Gardner Island. I assume that the plastic piece, is still believed to have come from the L-10E, and the heel would have come from a females shoe, possibly belonging to AE. A good point was mentioned on the Discovery channel show. Do you currently have under consideration parking an archeological team on the island for a much longer period of time. It doesn't seem very probable that a group of two-week searches are going to accomplish much in the terms of realistic material. I state this because of the size of the Island, the underbrush that has occurred since 1937, The need for a COMPLETE search of the Island, including sub vegetation areas, the need to search not only the lagoon, but the ocean spaces, close in, outside the island. Have you done any cost studies regarding a long trip? How many people, how long, food, equipment etc., etc. Three more questions, then I will go away. Considering the closeness of Fred in the Chicago area, there are literally a very large number of NOONANS living in that area now. I have even come up with a number of (F) Noonans in that area. Has the probability been explored for possible relations, and obviously paper products from his pre-trip. The University of Miami appears to have a large amount of Old Pan American Airways materials in their library. These are available to someone who would be willing to sit through the undocumented mess and try to sort it out. Has anyone attempted to do this ? I believe that Mr. Noonan had an alcohol problem. But no to any degree that would cause him to find his job performance lacking. Mr. Goerner indicated that he was the second choice as navigator, and that his "drinking problem" could be a factor. And the fact that he "really almost found" Howland Island is a great certification that he was operating as AE had needed. Another confusing thing to me is that if the airplane was flying in IFR conditions, and unable to see Howland Island, and the weather picture as given from the deckhands on the Itasca, was she truly went north of the island and thus into obliteration. Also another question was when she was flying the157-327 leg, which one was she flying ? We really have no way of knowing, do we. I'm not sure that I can be of any help in your program, other than to join and lend support. This is a mystery that well needs to be resolved. I have a Medical Degree, and proactice as a family physician. I also have a Masters in Aeronautical Engineering, and spent many years with NASA in both these positions. So If I may be of any help, let me know. I live in a suburb of Salt Lake City. The Geneology department of the state is second to none. If you have any needs along these lines let me know. It may come in handy for tracking decedents of FJN if they are discovered. Regards Dr. Wayne P. Wienecke, M.D. *************************************************************** Thank you Doctor. We'll look forward to receiving your membership. I'll try to answer your questions: >Do you currently have under consideration parking an archeological team on >the island for a much longer period of time. We have a full thirty days on the island scheduled for the 1999 expedition. Of course, double the time means double the money. That's the tough part. If we went with more people it would mean using a bigger ship. We've explored that option also and the cost goes up exponentially. We're satisfied that we have the most economical and efficient team size (about 15 people) and the best ship for the job (Nai'a, out of Fiji), and an adequate length of time on site (30 days). Now we have to raise the money. >I have even come up with a number of (F) Noonans in (the Chicago) area. Has >the probability been explored for possible relations, and obviously paper >products from his pre-trip. No, we have not started phoning Noonans in the Chicago area. I'm not sure what you mean about paper products from his pre-trip. >The University of Miami appears to have a large amount of Old Pan American >Airways materials in their library. These are available to someone who would >be willing to sit through the undocumented mess and try to sort it out. Has >anyone attempted to do this ? Yes. Randy Jacobson spent some time there not long ago with mixed results. Some interesting information but no revelations. >Another confusing thing to me is that if the airplane was flying in IFR >conditions, and unable to see Howland Island, and the weather picture as given >from the deckhands on the Itasca, was she truly went north of the island and >thus into obliteration. The plane was not flying in IFR conditions. The weather was good at Howland and Earhart's supposed report of "cloudy, overcast" conditions en route was added to the Itasca radio transcripts later. It does not appear in the original log. >Also another question was when she was flying the157-337 leg, which one was >she flying ? We really have no way of knowing, do we. That's right. We only know which direction made sense. >I'm not sure that I can be of any help in your program, other than to join >and lend support. There's no more important help than that. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:45:13 EDT From: Amanda Dunham Subject: AE's shoe size Ric wrote: >Sounds good Amanda. Gimme some references - Amelia complaining about her feet >swelling or about her thick ankles. Contemporaneous written sources. This >could be the reply we've been looking for to the critics who maintain that AE >had small feet. Aaaaaaaaaaaack! *All* my Earhart books are in storage!!! Nuts. She did have small feet, though. They just got bigger on occasion. Ok, I believe I spotted this factoid in Mary S. Lovell's book "The Sound of Wings." I noted it in passing and then ever after couldn't help but notice swollen or unswollen ankles & feet in photos of Amelia. Further proof I didn't look for. So I *do* know I read it from a responsible source (irresponsible sources don't leave the bookstore in my possession), I just can't prove which responsible source it was. This is the bad habit of a lapsed art historian: remember details but not the documentation. Sigh. Ok, so I'll get another copy of Lovell and start digging for references. In the mean time look at the pictures. Love to Mother & Dr. Scholl, Amanda PS: I can't be the only one who travels wearing ugly Birkenstocks for this very reason? I know, I know - it's not proof. Pick, pick, pick... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:51:55 EDT From: Paul Chattey Subject: Can research A curator colleague suggests that the Lib of Cong has a collection of patented/copyrighted label designs on file, as opposed to paying patent attorneys to do expensive research. If there is a chance that the banana label came from New Guinea (Ooo, look, canned bananas, I'll buy a tin!) there may also be a similar government collection there. Also the number of labels would seem to be correspondingly fewer ...just like the number of TIGHARs there, I suspect. Also, please tell Vern that I just crossed his path at the Banana Museum in Kent, Washington! Paul *************************************************************** From Ric Lib of Cong ... Is that Libido of Kong or Library of Congress? Have no fear about us paying patent attorneys to do expensive research. This is a grassroots movement. The People will find Amelia. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:01:46 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Noonan, for Jack Great tid-bits. Please contact me at jham@xxx.com. I would like to talk with your friend, Noonan's shipmate. Thanks. Blue skies, -jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:07:09 EDT From: Clyde Miller Subject: Colorado search The U.S. Navy Report 13 July 1937 by Wilhelm L. Friedell, captain USN Subject: Resume Earhart Search by the USS Colorado (in Charge Search group) The report concludes on page 12-13 (Verbatim) states the Colorado rendezvoused with the Lexington group on 12 July at 0700. The Colorado detached from the search group and was directed to return to the West Coast in order to debark the Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps students and naval Reserve Officers. The Colorado steamed 1240 miles, and that her planes flew 21.2 hours each, 1908 miles each and that the Colorado with her planes covered within the radius of visibility an area of 25,490 square miles As this is written (in the report) the Lexington Group is approaching the Search Area and will be able to conduct an extensive search over a large water area. The Colorado has, however, searched the land area within a radius of 450 miles of Howland island and definitely ascertained that the Earhart Plane is not on land within the region unless on an unknown, uncharted and unsighted reef. W.L. Friedell Copy to: CINCUS COMBATFOR COMBATSHIPS Hope this was the detail requested from the report *************************************************************** From Ric Well, that makes it pretty clear the Friedell was NOT under the impression that the Lex would continue to search the Phoenix Group. I was wrong and I stand corrected. Thank you Randy and thank you Clyde. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:17:38 EDT From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Colorado search As an aside, when Capt. Friedell passed by Niku, and noticed that it did not appear to match the size and shape of the published charts available at that day, he had a series of bearings made to the northern and southern ends of the island to help pinpoint its location and length. He then wrote a letter to the Hydrographic Office, explaining the situation. Very shortly thereafter (1938-1939), the Hydrographic Office sent the Bushnell to re-survey the Phoenix Islands, including aerial photographs. Whether the two surveys are related is anyone's guess, but circumstantially, it seems quite possible. **************************************************************** From Ric The Bushnell surveyed Gardner in November of 1939, although an aerial mosaic had been made by a floatplane launched from the small seaplane tender USS Pelican on April 30 of that year. The Bushnell's survey of Gardner was part of a huge project to survey all the islands of the Phoenix Group plus lots of other islands. She was running around the Central Pacific all that year. I 'spect that Gardner would have been surveyed with or without Friedell's notation that the charts were wrong. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:48:24 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Re: Ask ABC News I've forwarded these to Howie. *********************************************************** From Michael Strickland Ric- You can tell Howie that I thought the ABC News Thursday Night show was a lot better than the show that was broadcast on Discovery. The latter had more information (including footage of Noonan, which was absent from the former), but wandered all over the map. From a narrative perspective, the ABC News program was much more interesting and compelling. I did enjoy both, though! (Is that non-committal enough for you?) ************************************************************ From Don Neumann They spent too much time with other "theorists" (Elgen Long, Doris Rich, etc...) & Tom Crouch, instead of interviewing the members of your expedition team & allowing them to explain in greater detail the various items that have been uncovered on the island. They also missed a great opportunity to interview, on camera, the former Gardner island residents, now living in Funafuti. Seems to me such testimony as they provided would have gone a long way toward lending greater credibility to their documentary, since these people actually lived on the island within the overall timeframe which TIGHAR is investigating & can describe what they observed at that time, as opposed to results of an investigation some 50-55 years after the fact! I must agree, the camera work was superb, especially the underwater sequence in the lagoon & the breakers hitting the beach during the storm. The island has a very deceptive beauty about it, however I seriously doubt two very ill-prepared castaways, like Earhart & Noonan, could have survived very long (in spite of Noonan's supposed survival from being torpedoed in WWI), as they simply did not give the impression of being the "camp-out" type. (I also was disappointed that they did not at least i.d. on camera the other members of the expedition.) Don Neumann ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:50:17 EDT From: Clyde Miller Subject: Colorado/Lexington search The "Report Of Earhart Search" U.S.S. Lexington dated July 1937 has the following information. On a Page marked Decision: "That this force will search the vicinity of Howland Island to a distance of 120 miles, using all available aircraft on the first day. Thereafter, extending the search to the Westward up to and including the Gilbert Islands. Then should this search be negative, proceed to the point 290 miles north of Howland Island and Conduct such search as remaining fuel permit..... In addition on page 7 subsection 19: "On 15 July the Lexington encountered a current which gave a decided set to the Northwest. Because of this and also the fact that the wind had been from south southeast force 3 to 4 since the beginning of the Lexington Group search, it was decided to extend the search to the northwestward on 16 July." Hopefully, again this is the information you are looking for in the scan documents. Clyde Miller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:54:55 EDT From: Don Neumann Subject: Re: Posting again No apology is required! How you keep current on all the traffic on the forum is amazing, especially re-answering all the previously answered questions we forum members keep repeating! Don Neumann ************************************************************** From Ric I just keep hoping that if I can answer people's questions to their satisfaction, and they see the kind of high quality thinking, reasoning, and research the members of TIGHAR are doing, they'll want to be a part of this effort and join this organization. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:56:33 EDT From: Robert Brown Subject: AE speech I ran across this link on the History Channel's Web site. You have to load the RealAudio Plugin, (free), and then go to http://www.historychannel.com/gspeech/speeches/980627gs.html to listen to a speech by Amelia regarding the future of aviation and women. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:58:07 EDT From: Bob Brown Subject: AE on A&E August 1 9:00 AM - 10:00 AM Biography for Kids Amelia Earhart: Queen of the Air. Whatever happened to Amelia Earhart? This profile of the legendary aviatrix and daredevil who vanished without a trace in 1937 looks at the mystery of her disappearance. [TV G] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:59:56 EDT From: Michael Stricklan Subject: Re: Expedition That must be an Incessantly Asked Question, not just a Frequently Asked Question. Lord knows I'd kill Dick Strippel to get on one of your expeditions (just kidding, Dick), but I'll be happy to simply do what little research I can, ask lots of repetitive but stimulating questions, and finally pay for my TIGHAR membership very soon. I wish all of you great success on the next expedition -- and if you should find an opening for a cabin boy to work the galley and clean the heads, look no further! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:06:51 EDT From: Jack Subject: Re: Electra Maintenance Manual & info I need an address or fax number to send the copies of the manual pages containing the skin thicknesses of the wings (top and bottom). I also copied the page relative to the tail wheel, which gives the tire size. I think the wheel size is a better item to use to scale with, as it would not be distorted as an inflated tire (tyre for those chaps across the pond), or a tire with a load on it. Has anyone checked out the tide schedule at Niku in 1937. Based upon the aerial photographs it looked to me as if the would be a great sand runway at low tide. However when the tide came in an airplane with empty fuel tanks would be buoyant for awhile and get bounced around like a cork. As the aircraft gradually sank, while being pulled in and out over the reef. it would no doubt get shredded by the coral. That's my theory anyway. Keep in mind I am an FNG. LTM P.S. I never saw the "S" word show either. Further, I enjoyed the two shows immensely. Just seeing those waves on TV gave me a pucker factor of 10. No thanks. Jack J. ************************************************************* From Ric Our mailing address is: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 Fax number is (302) 994-7945 There are no tide schedules for Niku. Hindcasting has been done but I'm not comfortable that we can get accurate results with the little data we have. All you have to be off is six hours in 61 years and you have a 100 percent difference in the tidal state. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:32:54 EDT From: Wayne Weinecke Subject: IFR conditions? I believe that I may be following a report in Fred Goerner's book, that indicated an officer of the Itasca, standing on the deck, had noticed heavy cloud cover to the north of the ship. This coupled with the report of uncoupled weather that I thought came from the aircraft, would indicate that she was in fact probably north of the ship. Sorry for this assumption. *************************************************************** From Ric You're correct, and Goerner was correct, in that that's what the Itasca's captain later reported. It was only upon comparing the original radio logs with the captain's later transcripts that we noticed that the "overcast" was an embellishment. In a 1973 interview with Elgen Long, the Itasca's chief radioman, Leo G. Bellarts, maintained that Earhart never said any such thing and that those who later said she did could not have heard her say it because he (Bellarts) was the only one wearing headphones at the time and Earhart's transmissions had not yet been put on the speaker. Whether or not there were "heavy clouds to the northwest" is more difficult to determine. The Itasca's deck log for that morning shows that conditions at Howland at the time of Earhart's anticipated arrival were "blue sky with detached clouds", the clouds were "cumulus" in type, three tenths of the sky was obscured by cloud, visibility was more than 20 miles, the wind was light out of the East. Barometric pressure was 29.88. At 10:40 a.m. the Itasca steamed off in search of Amelia toward the weather area later described by the captain, but the deck log for the rest of the day never reports more than six tenths (and usually more like 4 and 5 tenths) cloud cover until 7 p.m. that night. Visibility remained 20 miles plus throughout the day and the pressure never dropped below 29.78. If there was an area of bad weather northwest of Howland, it seems to have cleared up by the time Itasca got there. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:52:05 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Eugene Pallette For those interested in chasing Eugene Pallette further, here are some possible sources assembled by Team Member Kris Tague. AUTHOR: Twomey, Alfred E. TITLE: The versatiles : a study of supporting character actors and actresses in the American motion picture, 1930-1955 / by Alfred E. Twomey and Arthur F. McClure. PUBLISHED: New York : Castle Books, c1969. PHYSICAL DETAILS: 304 p. : ports ; 26 cm. OTHER AUTHORS: McClure, Arthur F., joint author. SUBJECTS: Motion picture actors and actresses--United States--Biography. Motion picture actors and actresses--United States--Portraits. Character actors and actresses--United States--Biography. Character actors and actresses--United States--Portraits. LC CALL NUMBER: PN1998.A2 T9 1969b DDC: 791.43/028/0922 B LCCN: 79-105985 //r98 # CODE LOCATION 1 AZFG Flagstaff-Coconino County Public Library 2 CLPG Santa Clara Public Library 3 DCGG Georgetown University 4 DCLC Library of Congress 5 GAEG Emory University 6 MAHG Harvard University Library 7 NYCG Columbia University Libraries 8 NYMX Museum of Modern Art AUTHOR: McClure, Arthur F. TITLE: More character people / by Arthur F. McClure, Alfred E. Twomey, Ken D. Jones. EDITION: 1st ed. PUBLISHED: Secaucus, N.J. : Citadel Press, c1984. PHYSICAL DETAILS: 239 p. : ill. ; 29 cm. OTHER AUTHORS: Twomey, Alfred E. Jones, Ken D. OTHER ENTRIES: Twomey, Alfred E. Versatiles. SUBJECTS: Motion picture actors and actresses--Biography--Dictionaries. Motion picture actors and actresses--Portraits. NOTES: Rev. ed. of: The versatiles / by Alfred E. Twomey and Arthur F. McClure. 1969. LC CALL NUMBER: PN1998.A2 M2525 1984 DDC: 791.43/028/0922 B LCCN: 84-219109 ISBN: 0-8065-0876-0 : $19.95 # CODE LOCATION 1 AZPG Pima Community College District 2 CACG Alameda County Library 3 CLAG Los Angeles Public Library 4 CSCW University of Southern California 5 CTYG Yale University Library 6 CUDG University of California, Davis 7 DCLC Library of Congress 8 FLFG Florida State University 9 GAEG Emory University 10 HKCG Urban Council of Public Libraries (Hong Kong) 11 IAUG University of Iowa Libraries 12 MAHG Harvard University Library 13 NHDG Dartmouth College Library 14 NJRG Rutgers University Libraries 15 NYPG The New York Public Library 16 NYUG New York University 17 OKUG University of Oklahoma Libraries 18 PASG Pennsylvania State University 19 UTBG Brigham Young University 20 WAWG Western Library Network ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:09:41 EDT From: Ken Knapp Subject: Some info and an anecdote. I'm on vacation this week, and finally got around to doing something I'd had on my agenda for a while. I printed out a copy of the wreck photo and the supporting info from the TIGHAR web page and took it to a friend for his opinion on it. My friend, Chet, is an interesting character. He's about 75 years old and has been flying since he was around 13. He built and used to own the local airport (N30 Cherry Ridge), and probably taught 75% of the pilots around here how to fly. He's retired now, but is still very active in flying, giving free dual instruction to students and sitting in his recliner in his house, where he has a view of the 17 and 35 runways, and giving his critiques to students practicing take offs and landings. Anyway, I took the info to him and asked him for his opinion on it. He looked it over quickly, and expressed the opinion that, "she went down somewhere in the drink." BUT, I know Chet, and he'll look it over more closely later on, and then we'll get his considered opinion on the wreckage. If anyone can look at that photo and id a wreck I'd bet my money that he can. He also related an interesting story to me that I'd like to share. He asked me if he ever showed me the photo of him wearing AE's parachute. Seems that years ago, he bought a parachute since he was doing aerobatics in a biplane, (for $25) and when he got it home, he discovered that parachutes had logbooks. He looked at the logbook and the last entry in it was made by Amelia Earhart. My reaction was, "WOW! What did you do with it???". He said he sold it to a friend and isn't sure where it is now. Anyway, don't know how appropriate this all is to the forum, but I thought it was interesting. Ken Knapp *************************************************************** From Ric When Chet expressed the opinion that "she went down somewhere in the drink." was the "she" he was referring to the airplane in the photo or Amelia Earhart? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 21:18:04 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Lae takeoff (Strippel) >you said AE lost the voice antenna at take off from Lae. FACT WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE FOR THIS???????????????????????? IS??????????????????????????????????/-- DICK *************************************************************** From Ric Your ? key is stickin' a bit there Dick. A forensic examination of the film of the Lae takeoff by an independent laboratory (Photek, Inc. of Hood River, Oregon) has concluded that the belly wire antenna (whatever its purpose) appears to have been lost, probably due to an inadvertent ground strike by the aftmost mast, sometime between when the airplane taxis past the camera on its way out to the end of the runway and when it co