Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:43:05 EST From: Tom Cook Subject: D18 Chuck Jackson mentioned a D 18, is that also known as a Beech 18? Vincenes (IN) University, has one. When I saw it, I thought it was an Electra, twin engine, twin tail, radial engines,2 blade props, tail drager gear, windows down the sides, evan has a loop antena on top! There was an Electra abandoned at the Evansville,IN airport about 30 years ago, landed one night with one engine "out", pilot disappeared! I am trying to find out what happened to it. Tom Cook Tighar 2127 ************************************************************* From Ric Yes. D18, Beech 18, Twin Beech, all the same. It's really quite a bit smaller than a Lockheed Model 10 but similar enough in general layout to act as a stand-in for Amelia's plane in the 1995 made-for-television movie Final Flight (alternatively titled "Diane Keaton Circumnavigates Southern California in a Twin Beech"). ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:48:17 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: No prop? > I'm sure that we have some forum members who can describe what would happen if > you ever got a radial engine started with no prop attached. I believe you would shoot oil to the next island out of the prop shaft. As all pilots know, the constant speed propeller is operated by oil pressure in the center of the crank shaft. I've never seem a 1937 radial engine, but I assume it is the same. Don Jordan (#2109) ************************************************************ From Ric The rotating mass of the propeller also acts as a flywheel. Engines that are run on test stands use a clubbed prop. A propless engine would quickly tear itself apart. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:50:10 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Ric wrote: > Excellent work. Sounds like you may be on the trail. Does the census give > middle names or initials? Our boy was Frederick J. (don't know what it stood > for though). Some census give initials, but not this one... I have written to a source in Chicago, that has some IL birth records from 1870-present. Maybe we'll get real lucky and find Fred's! Birth records typically list parents names. I am also tracking down archived newspaper microfilm for the Santa Barbara area which might discuss Fred's life, death, and "surviving" family. Will see what turns up. Sandy #2110 ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:51:11 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Jerry Hamilton wrote: > Some of the Noonan info suggests Fred was educated in "Chicago" public > schools and went to private Illinois military academy. Any thing in the > Warren county area that can be checked? Yes. That's on the list. Do you live up that way...??? Sandy ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:53:41 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Jerry Hamilton wrote: > I talked with Richard Noonan of Studio City. He didn't really have anything > more than he had already mentioned to Ric. He says his father was a cousin > of Fred Noonan. His grandfather would have been a brother to Fred Noonan's > father John Noonan. His grandfather (Thomas Francis) was born in Jersey > City in 1864/63. Maybe Jersey is a place to start to search for records > tieing this together by verifying Fred's father John had a brother named > Thomas Francis. Does this make sense and does it really matter or help us > get anywhere? Did Richard say Fred's father was John????!! I did get a start checking Noonans in Jersey City. But only got through 1860. Will look at 1850 and 1870 on next trip. Sandy #2110 ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:55:13 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Jerry wrote: > In Susan Butler's book, "East To The Dawn", a good friend of Noonan's is > mentioned to whom he sent letters while on the flight. Her name is Helen > (Day) Bible and Ms. Butler says she interviewed her and used some of those > letters. It occurs to me that Helen Bible may know something about Noonan's > sisters and brothers. Do you have any connection with Butler? Or do you > know about Bible? Must be my day to send you cyber messages. Do you have a copy of this book? Does it, 1.List a place of residence for the author? 2. Have an address of the publisher. And, 3.When was it published? Thanks. Sandy #2110 ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:05:40 EST From: R Batista Subject: No prop? I've wondered this myself. Perhaps you could explain what does happen when the engine is started with no prop. (perhaps overheats).... but does this matter when there is no chance of taking off again? **************************************************************** From Richard Pingrey As to running the engines without a prop attached. You wouldn't want to be within a 100 yards of the airplane if you could get the engines to start. The props store the energy produced by the engine like the flywheel on a car engine but to an even greater extent. You wouldn't want to be around the general area without the controlling force of the prop. This is irrelevant as Fred and AE couldn't remove the prop without very special tools, stands, etc. and if they came off the damage would be so great that you wouldn't be able to start an engine regardless. Dick Pingrey ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:51:47 EST From: Mike Ruiz, posting a message from a friend Subject: Lambrecht Vought O3U Corsair Last revised: 25 May 1996 Development of O2U, basically identical to the O2U-4. Later they were renamed SU. Type: SU-4 Task: observation Year: Crew: 2 Engines: 1 * 447kW P&W R-1690-42 Wing Span: 10.97m Length: 8.37m Height: 3.45m Wing Area: 31.31m2 Empty Weight: 1502kg Max.Weight: 2161kg Speed: 269km/h Ceiling: 5670m Range: 1094km Armament: 3*mg7.62mm Could not find an explicit description of a Vought O3U-3 aircraft. Indication that Navy changed designation to SU. In any case, these planes seemed to have a range of about 600 statute miles at a top speed of about 150 sm/hr for an endurance of about 4 hours. At a speed of 130-140 mph the endurance was probably 4 hours --- thus 3 hours of search time with 1 hour's fuel reserve. I estimate a total of 325 sm for the McKean - Gardner - Carondelet Reef search. Assuming 130 sm/hr speed between search areas, gives 2 hrs --- leaving 1 hr for search time. "McKean did not require more than a perfunctory examination" --- to me that means 5 minutes, no more than 10 minutes. Carondelet Reef --- "no part of the reef is above water - nothing there - planes returned to ship." No search required, nothing above water, that leaves maybe 50 minutes for the search of Gardner Island! Three airplanes, six people searching for 50 minutes --- that's equivalent of 300 minutes - 5 hours of search time by one person! Given my 25 years experience in avian aerial surveys in the coastal plane of Virginia and the Carolinas, including the barrier islands, finding a Lockheed Electra, or parts thereof, on Gardner Island would be a "no-brainer" given 50 minutes in my Cessna 172! Looking for footprints on the beach and around the lagoon plus counting the number of coconut crabs while avoiding the birds would take a little more time. Since the US Government built a runway for AE to use on a worthless pile of coral called Howland Island, she and FN would have had every confidence that an aerial search would be mounted for them. If they had gotten to Gardner Island by life raft before Lambrecht over flew the area, they would have taken any number of actions to call attention to their presence. Lambrecht saw no evidence of AE/FN simply because there was nothing to see. ************************************************************** From Ric Let me address the last comment first. The idea that Earhart's flight had unlimited U.S. government support is folklore. The construction of a runway at Howland was planned by the Department of the Interior without regard to Earhart's flight and was motivated by issues of international trade which were seen as vital to U.S. interests. The construction plans were merely hastened as a favor to AE. No contingency plan of any kind was part of the U.S. government's support of Earhart's flight. The message traffic surrounding the organization (such as it was) of the search effort makes it clear that this was a catch-as-catch-can scramble that sort of got out of hand. As for the search by the Colorado aircraft, it's a pity that our Skyhawk pilot was not available back then. We might all now be working on The Hoffa Project. If we want to make a serious study of how much time the 1937 search of Gardner may have entailed, let's establish some facts. 1. Where was the launch point? The deck log of BB45 (USS Colorado) shows the ship's Lat/Long at 0800, noon and 2000. At 0800 the ship was at 4 degrees, 3 minutes South Lat.,174 degrees 40 minutes West Long. For the past hour it had been making 7 knots on a heading of 150 degrees which should put it at 3 degrees 58 minutes South, 174 degrees 44 minutes West at the time of launch. 2. What was the launch time? According to the log, Lambrecht, in plane number 4-0-4, was catapulted at 0656. Fox, in 4-0-6, left the deck 30 seconds later and Short, in 4-0-5 was launched at 0700. 3. What was the total duration of the mission? Plane 4-0-4 (Lambrecht) was hoisted aboard at 1025. Fox came aboard at 1035 and Short at 1037. So if we allow, say, 5 minutes on either end for join up and landing, the mission lasted from 0705 until 1020 - a total of 3 hours 15 minutes. 4. What was the total distance covered? Between 0700 and 1000, BB45 made an average of 12 knots on a heading of 150 degrees. That puts the recovery point at roughly 4 degrees 31 minutes South, 174 degrees 25 minutes West. Launch point to McKean was 42 nm. McKean to Gardner is 67 nm. Gardner to Carondelet Reef is 68 nm. Carondelet to the recovery point was 72 nm. Total distance 249 nm (289 sm). 5. What cruising speed did the aircraft use when enroute? We don't know. My personal opinion is that 130 to 140 mph (113 to 122 kts) is too high for the economical cruise speed of an airplane with a top speed of 150 mph (130 kts). My guess is that the speed used by the Lexington's search planes - 110 mph (95 kts) - is more realistic. (Perhaps TIGHAR member Bill Moss, who flew off the Lex during the Earhart search, could offer an opinion.) 6. Finally, how much time is unaccounted for by travel and could have been spent at the three search points? If we use 122 kts to cover the 249 nm distance, we account for just about exactly 2 hours of the 3 hours 15 minute mission, leaving an hour and a quarter to divide among McKean, Gardner, and Carondelet. If we use 95 kts, it takes 2 hours 37 minutes to cover the distance, leaving 38 minutes of total search time. That's a big difference. It's apparent that we need to get a better handle on how fast these guys were going between islands. Ric ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:16:32 EST From: Bob Subject: Antennas As mentioned in the email yesterday, the antennas were connected to the transmitters/receivers with a single insulated wire. This wire actually became part of the antenna system. This wire could be called an antenna lead in or more properly the antenna transmission line. Regards, Bob ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:39:44 EST From: Paul Verde Subject: Dumb Question? I had a thought and for the sake of possibly being considered politically incorrect or even environmentally unfriendly..... here goes! Since the island is presently uninhabited, and we are looking for objects large and small. Would it or could it be possible to overfly the island far enough ahead of a visit to spray it with a defoliant. (I'm no chemical expert, but the stuff would grow back in time.) Would this give us the needed visibility for a satellite fly over? Or make it easier to locate items during an onsite visit? Again, just a thought. Don't burn me at the stake! Paul Verde Lifetime Member # 1447 *************************************************************** From Ric I'll try to be gentle. Nikumaroro is a valued part of the Republic of Kiribati and is one of the few Pacific atolls which have not suffered the depredations of over development. Kiribati is currently struggling to come up with a plan for the re-settlement of the island which will not destroy its pristine beauty. God knows, the place has tried to kill me more than once, but if I had to choose, I'd leave Amelia unfound rather than mess it up. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:41:07 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Antenna lead in Thanks for the information regarding the wire in the cover photo. It takes a while for memories from well over a half-century ago to surface. I finally remembered, as a kid, paging through the ARRL Handbook again and again. And I remembered that they did just run a wire out to an antenna with the other side "earthed" -- no transmission line as such. Those stand-off insulators are a pretty good clue. So, it's not co-ax at all, just an insulated wire held away from the bulkhead and kept from swinging about by the stand-off insulators. We just can't find a place for that co-ax in the Electra! Maybe input to a receiver? Maybe the RDF receiver is a candidate. It seems to me one would want to avoid any signal pickup other than from the loop. In the arrangement above, that wire is part of the antenna, although mostly inside the aircraft. Maybe a shielded wire would have been used in that application. And a further question... How do you figure the transmit/recieve situation was handled? I'm tempted to believe the same antenna would be used -- and the same lead-in wire? Depends on where the receiver is located, it seems. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:43:08 EST From: Ron Dawson Subject: Pacific Manuscripts Bureau Unless you have already seen it, you might want to look at the website of the Pacific Manuscripts Bureau in Australia. They seem to be trying to collect a range of documents, personal and governmental. Might be something in addition to those contained by the archives of the Western Pacific High Commission in the U.K. URL is http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/spin/RSRC/PMB/pmbhom7.htm Yes, I know its a screenful. Ron Dawson, 2126 *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Ron. Kent? Kris? Sic 'em. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:44:41 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Magneto wire I keep trying to stuff that piece of co-ax/shielded-wire into the Electra somewhere. And it keeps popping out again! I don't think it will stay put in the ignition system either. It's not robust enough. There's not enough insulation between center conductor and shield for the voltages involved. I've been going through '30s issues of journals like "Aviation" which became "Aviation Week, etc." and "Aero Digest." And the amateur radio publication, "QST" for general radio practice of the period. I see a lot of interesting stuff including Scintilla magnetos, Western Electric transmitters and receivers, vertical antennas and trailing wires. But I'm not finding much that's helpful. There's not enough detail. Nothing about connectors used and nothing about how radio gear was connected to antennas. They were struggling with the problem of ignition system noise. They were trying to use shielded ignition wiring and haveing lots of problems with that. Typically the shielding braid was the outer most layer. Oil would get through the braid and degrade the rubber leading to insulation failure, engines quiting, and forced landings. There would have been little point in an outer jacket if it too was rubber. It looks like a shielded lead-in to a reciever or, possibly, a microphone cable are about the only possibilities remaining... unless someone can think of something else that would have needed a shielded wire. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:45:45 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Tracking Noonan A technical library is an unlikely place to look for Noonan but since I was there dragging out very old magazines... I did find one "Noonan" who seemed to be in the right place: Chicago. He might be some kind of relative of Fred J. Noonan. "Who was who in American History -- Science and Technology" Edward J. Noonan -- Civil Engineer, I think. Born: 1874 Children: Helen Marie and Eddy Jo. I didn't make note of the wife's name. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:47:26 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: No prop Indulge me... This is pretty much off-topic but I've wondered... An aircraft engine won't run without a prop, will it? No "flywheel" to carry it through the next compression stroke. If it did run, you'd sure have to throttle back fast! I once heard of such an event at the local P&W plant (WWII time) reported as the engine having suffered "Intermolecular Maladhesion!" *************************************************************** From Ric That's a pretty good description of what an engine would do. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:53:16 EST From: Bill Scarborough Subject: Air Comics The article, (in Air Classics magazine) by Rollin C. Reineck, claims AE's fate "known" to FDR Administration but no information volunteered to researchers. Further claims SecTreas Morgenthau, Jr was in control information and released none to requests. This included copies of ITASCA Comm Log requested by Paul Mantz. Much discussion re "safeguarding AE's reputation which would be marred" by Comm Log release. Also references to AE disregarding "orders"(?). Sounds like effort to revive the Japanese Agent myth! Will be looking for further discussion! Bill Scarborough *************************************************************** From Ric Well Bill, tempting as it is to go another few rounds with Rollie Reineck, the rehash of thoroughly debunked conspiracy theories is off topic for this forum. Besides, I make it a practice never to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:56:58 EST From: Marilyn Pollock Subject: Tracking Noonan East to the Dawn, first publishing Sept '97, Addison-Wesley of Reading, Mass., is the publisher. Their web is www.aw.com/gb/ No mention of Susan Butler's address. Marilyn #1238 ======================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:59:44 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: Tracking Noonan I'm absolutely nobodies idea of a genalogist, but a few years ago I found out that the Mormon Church (In Salt Lake City) has an astonishing amount of information on the who-what-where-when of lots of people. Are there any real genalogist out there checking into this soruce for information on Fred N.? R/... Fred Madio ************************************************************** From Ric I think it's apparent from her postings that Sandy Campbell is hot on the trail. I'm sure she has the Mormons in her arsenal of sources. ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:15:45 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Tracking Noonan To Sandy, Nope. I reside in the San Francisco Bay area. I have a friend in Santa Barbara also trying to track down marriage certificate info on Noonan. Maybe we should coordinate our efforts there. Contact me at jham@ccnet.com. Blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric Didn't we have information that Fred and Mary Bea were married in Yuma, AZ? *************************************************************** To Sandy: From Jerry I have copy, published in 1997. Just contacted publisher via their web page. Just got address for Susan from them today. Will send letter to her asking for help. Blue skies, -jerry **************************************************************** ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:21:23 EST From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Tracking Noonan Att: Sandy Campbell: Checking Family Tree Maker we found the same Fred Noonan that you found on the 1900 IL Census soundex. The program has the following information: Husband-John Noonan, born May 1860 in Illinois Wife-Ellen Shunick, born May 1860 in Warren Co., Illinois Father-Edmund Shunick, Mother-Hannora Croft Children: Florence married Sylvester Hellhake, she was living in Galesburg, Illinois in 1978, had a son named Fred Hellhake. Mary, born July 1888 in Warren Co., Illinois Nora, born Feb 1890 in Warren Co., Illinois William, born Dec 1891 in Warren Co., Illinois Leal, born Oct 1893 in Warren Co., Illinois Ella, born Feb 1896 in Warren Co., Illinois Fred, born Dec 1899 in Warren Co., Illinois This is the only Fred Noonan on CD that comes with the program but we are going to check the more extensive site on the internet next. Dick Pingrey *************************************************************** From Ric If this is indeed "our" Fred Noonan it means that he was younger, not older, than AE who was born in 1897. Interesting. ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:33:43 EST From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Tracking Noonan Attn: Sandy Campbell The California State Library at Sacramento has an extensive collection of newspapers from all over the state on microfilm. Many of these date back to the early part of the century. We used them to search for obituaries and related information a few years ago. They could probably be obtained through inter-library loan if Sacramento is to distant for you to use the State Library. Many of the newspaper have been indexed for individual names. The librarians could possibly check the indexes for you. In Chicago the Newbury Library has a very extensive genealogy section and there may be a researcher at the Library who could do some checking on Fred. At the New England Historic Genealogical Society Library in Boston there is (or was) a research specialist by the name of Gary Boyd Roberts. Gary is unbelievable when it comes to finding people. Although there might be a fee for his services, if Fred's ancestry can be found and we can't find it Gary Boyd Roberts is where I would hang my hat. Dick Pingrey **************************************************************** From Jerry for Sandy: Oops, sorry. I have no corroboration of Fred's father's name from any other source. I was using the info you found on the Noonans of Warren county and trying to connect the dots. Separately for what its worth, Susan Butler ("East To The Dawn") says Noonan was in the Royal British Naval Service in the Great War. Maybe that ties with the info that says he attended London Nautical College. I tried to find the college on the web and found a London Nautical School. But the site was only one page and I'm not sure it was working properly so I couldn't get any further've heard of the Royal Navy, but I'd like to ask our subscribers in the UK if they've ever heard of an organization called the Royal British Naval Service? ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:41:20 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Tracking Noonan AND THE ANSWER IS - Yuma Arizona, Saturday March 27, 1937!! The question - Where and when did Frederick J. Noonan marry Mary B. Martinelli? This info courtesy of the Oakland Tribune, March 29, 1937. Other stuff: - they motored from Burbank to Yuma. - plan brief honeymoon in Hollywood. - Mary operated beauty salon at 3337 Lakeshore Drive, Oakland. - they expect to make their home in Oakland. AND THE ANSWER IS - Fresno California, Sunday April 4, 1937!!! The question - Where and when did Noonan have an auto wreck? Oakland Trib, March 5. Other stuff: - Noonan received skinned hand, Mary cut on knee/scalp. - on their way to Burbank. - head on collision, no one seriously hurt (must have been goin' slow or the metal was better in those old cars). - Noonan cited for driving in wrong traffic lane. (!) - article has nice picture of Ms. Mary. AND THE QUESTION IS - Why Yuma for crying out loud??! She was from California, Merced pioneering family, and lived in Oakland. Maybe he had family there, (fingers crossed) I hope. Unless someone can get to Yuma library easily in person, I'll have them track down the article on the marriage in the local paper (and hopefully it will have some detail on Fred's family). Should take a couple of weeks. Found a few other interesting tid bits. (hey, I could have even bought a cool Buick sedan with "DeLuxe Equipment" for only $1,160.) I'll fax the info if you want Ric and will also send copies to the Fawkes address. And I'll dig deeper into these fun archives when I can. Talked to another PanAm Clipper pilot a few days ago. He retired in 1963. He was stationed in Miami with PanAm when Noonan was there and knew about him, but was not a friend (and never took Noonan's navigator course) and so recalls no details. He also came to Oakland, but after Noonan had already disappeared. If I talk to one more Clipper pilot I get to write a book. Blue skies, -jerry #2128 *************************************************************** From Ric Good work Jerry! No need to fax the stuff. Mail is fine. This work on Noonan has needed doing for a long time. He has always been the neglected crewmember on the Electra and, too often, the scapegoat in the disappearance. Maybe we need to formally initiate The Noonan Project. ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:07:08 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Lambrecht My estimate of 95 knots was based upon ALL flights of the Colorado planes during the search, including three to Winslow Reef, and to all of the Phoenix Islands (four in total), including precise navigation of the Colorado launch and recovery points, and including wind vectors. Randy Jacobson, Tighar 1364. ************************************************************** From Ric Sounds good to me. If 95 kts seems slow as an economical cruise speed for an airplane with a top speed of 130 kts, remember that the O3U-3 was, by modern standards, terribly inefficient aerodynamically. Lots of built-in head wind. Drag increases as the square of speed and if the old girl could be bullied into a top speed of 130 kts through sheer horsepower, I'm sure she didn't like it much. I don't find 95 kts at all difficult to accept as a cruise speed. Randy, do you recall what you came up with for total available search time (exclusive of transit time)? ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:08:48 EST From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Magneto wire Vern, the wire you want to research is what is called the P-lead wire. This wire goes between the Mag Switch and Magneto to ground the mag. after shut down. The issue, as you discribed it, is the wire could not be between the mag and spark plug. This is because of the high voltage generated to fire the plug this requires a considerable amount of insulation which would present itself as a much,much larger wire than the artifact in hand. I have a mag. at school and trying to find the lead connector, however I think it will turn out to be a special one that has a unique safty system with a clip. I will keep checking I just did not want you to give up yet. By the way the P- lead was a shielded wire as it normally went to the cockpit where instruments and radios would obsorb the RF if it was not shielded. Bruce ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:11:21 EST From: John Clauss Subject: Dumb Question, YES! I just couldn't let this one go by. The Phoenix Islands support the largest concentration of seabirds in the world. Most of these islands are uninhabited and have seen minimal disturbance by man. Kanton being the major exception. The air base on Kanton was built during WWII and has supported various projects through the late 70's. The Air Force operations in the Phoenix islands were under intense environmental and ecological scrutiny all during the 70's up until the islands were turned over to the Republic of Kiribati. The UN and various US agencies were looking over the military's shoulder constantly. They had to pay attention to individual bird kills. There was no unauthorized or unnecessary travel to the outlying islands from the air base. Procedures were also in place to limit the transfer of non native plants and insects by the helicopters from Canton to these islands. People in the know consider this area to be the largest seabird sanctuary in the world. I am not even mentioning the plant and marine life that is so abundant. If you spilled a five gallon container of insecticide or defoliant on one of these islands it would be a major event. I don't mean to sound like a fanatic on this. It's just that several of us have been researching the military operations in this area during the 70's and the number one issue (besides the missile tracking project) has been the ecology of the Phoenix Islands. John Clauss #142 ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:12:19 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: Tracking Noonan To Dick Pingrey and Sandy Campbell I live just outside Boston. So if I can help in some way with the New England Historic Genealogical Society Library and Gary Boyd Roberts please let me know. My e-mail address is: fmadio@mitre.org Regards: Fred Madio ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:15:51 EST From: Jerry Sawyer Subject: Dumb question Well said, Ric. While I understand that the original poster is coming from a position of relative unknowing, the last thing we need to consider is wreaking ecological havoc anywhere in the world. There's been too much of that already and I think that we, as archaeologists, explorers, investigators need to set a standard for non-destructive research whenever possible. Granted, by its very nature, archaeology is destructive, but, by using non-invasive or minimally invasive techniques when possible and attempting to maintain or restore the landscape when done, we will certainly be seen in a better light and our research endeavors-which are often hindered by locals through misunderstanding of what it is we really do-may fair better in the future. Cheers, Jerry ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:25:56 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: Tracking Noonan By the time Jerry Passadori lets me look at those albums...we won't need them anymore. Yesterday he said he wants to get together on Saturday and go over all the stuff. He said the cousins also have things. My post a few weeks ago about Fred and Mary getting married in Yuma, AZ must have been lost. I know you got the information and I sent it to Sandy also. Don't know what happened. I live only 50 miles from Fresno, CA and go there often. The next time I go down there I will check the library for the accident on April 4, 1937. I think at this point though, it will just be interesting reading. I will also start checking the other libraries for that date in the other towns I go to. Did we ever find out if DNA could be lifted from the glue of a 61 year old envelope? Don Jordan (#2109) **************************************************************** From Ric You never know what is going to turn up. Any letter to or from or about Fred is of interest. No, we haven't had an answer on your old envelope DNA question. Anybody out there know if that's possible? ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:27:06 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Marilyn Pollock wrote: > East to the Dawn, first publishing Sept '97, Addison-Wesley of Reading, Mass., > is the publisher. Their web is www.aw.com/gb/ > > No mention of Susan Butler's address. Thanks Marilyn. I'll see if they can't forward me an address. I'm curious to ask Ms Butler about her references & these "letters"... Sandy #2110 ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:16:31 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: About the forum Just a couple of general comments for the entire forum: There are now nearly three hundred subscribers to TIGHAR's Amelia Earhart Search Forum, only a few of whom regularly post messages, but that is very typical of email lists. What is NOT typical is the high quality of the postings and the excellent research that the forum produces. We really did not expect that. When we instituted the forum back in November we thought that it would be a good way to spread the word about the methodology we employ and the results we've had in our investigation of the Earhart disappearance. We also hoped that it would bring TIGHAR some new members. What we've found is that the forum subscribers are not merely interested in the work TIGHAR has done. A significant proportion of you want to contribute to the project, whether by active research or just the expressing of an opinion. The forum is starting to produce long-needed answers to historical questions and is making progress on artifact identification. Membership in the organization is not something we've had to sell to forum subscribers. It just happens. People sign on, read the postings, decide that good and exciting work is being done, want to be part of it, and so they join TIGHAR. Of course, the forum is not everyone's cup of tea and for the (on average) three new sign-ups every day, there is one sign off. Some subscribers have had difficulty leaving the list and I recently discovered that there is an error in the sign off instructions I was sending out with the welcome message. Sorry about that. It is really not our policy to take prisoners. If you want to leave the forum, send an email to this address: listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com and say: signoff earhartforum (your email address) That should do it. If you have any problem please let me know. The Amelia Earhart Search Forum has become an important research tool. Thank you for participating. Ric Gillespie Executive Director TIGHAR ======================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:22:09 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Tracking Noonan Dick, Thanks for that data. I've seen that referral. Is that from FTM Volume 8 ? I have a couple of emails out checking that disk. I haven't heard back yet. Do you have that volume? Isn't there a reference to the submitter? If so, would you please send directly to me at sjcamp@swbell.net ? Thanks again. **************************************************************** More from Sandy WAY TO GO, JERRY!!! Are you making photocopies of all this? I'd be happy to reimburse you. I'd like to lay all this data out in front of me so I can organize the puzzle. If you don't mind sending those, I can email a fax number. It's up to you. (I guess I should start reading at the bottom of my mailbox and go backwards!) And Ric, I think Amelia might agree with you on the Noonan Project. Also have found some addresses to write regarding Royal Navy WW1 records, etc..., just takes alittle more time. Sandy #2110 **************************************************************** And again from Sandy Ric, I meant to ask... So Mary B. Passadori was married to a Martinelli before Noonan? And then later an Ireland...? Is that how it goes? Mary Beatrice Passadori Martinelli Noonan Ireland. aka Mary. Sandy #2110 ************************************************************** From Ric You got it. Now let's see you do Elizabeth Taylor. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:31:24 EST From: Dick Pingrey Subject: The Noonan Project Attn: Fred Madio I would suggest holding off on using Gary Boyd Roberts at the NEHGS in Boston until Sandy Campbell has a chance to complete her research. There is a charge for non members to use the Society library and normally a charge would be required when using the services of Gary Roberts. Dick Pingrey ************************************************************* From Mike Ruiz In reference to Noonan taking the blame, a recent editorial I read regarding the Guam 747 crash made a good point, the pilot ultimately is responsible for the fate of her or his aircraft. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:10:48 EST From: Jerry Ellis Subject: Magneto wire I have a colleague, Giles Henderson, who is a pilot and a ham and he knows very well an ~80 year old fellow (Adkisson) in Tuscola, IL who is apparently a magneto expert (who is also a pilot and aircraft mechanic). I am sending my 1996 issue of Tracks with Giles on his next visit to see if the old guy can till us anything about the cables from the picture. The insulation on the cable might be successfully identified by infrared spectroscopy and that would probable require very little sample. jerry -- Jerry W. Ellis Carbohydrates, polymers and Professor of Chemistry Chemical Education Department of Chemistry Eastern Illinois University ************************************************************** From Ric TIGHAR member Bob Sherman was able to arrange for the Belden Wire and Cable Company of Richmond, IN to analyze one of the cables w/connector. Sheyla Watson, their technical support person, should receive the artifact via FedEx today. *************************************************************** From Vern To: Anyone who knows anything about likely radio hook-ups in the Electra. I realize I'm beating this thing to death but I'm still trying to fit a lenght of shielded cable with rubber insulation and Jones Series 101 connectors into Amelia's Electra -- somewhere. Whatever radio gear was in the Electra on that final flight, I'm inclined to think the same antenna AND LEAD-IN, whatever it was, would have been used for both recieving and transmitting. And I would expect some kind of change over switch or relay. This would seem to rule out the small, rubber insulated, shielded cable. It's not suitable for transmitting. Although my present impression is that the transmitter probably produced less than 50 watts, I don't think that cable would have been used. Does anyone acquainted with the way things were done at that time see a way that cable might have been involved in a receive only situation? We know there was an RDF loop connected to some receiver. That is a receive only situation. The lead from the loop necesarily passed through the least shielded part of the aircraft where undesired pickup by the lead might occur. There is indication that Amelia may have had a seperate Bendix RDF reciever. Does anyone have any thoughts about how the RDF loop probably would have been connected to whatever receiver it worked with -- possibly to the Bendix RDF receiver? I don't know how much effort has gone into researching the radio equipment. It may not have been regarded as important since none of it was found anywhere. Have the possibilities already been exhausted? My library research is not getting anywhere -- nothing about connectors or means for connection to antennas. *************************************************************** From Ric Actually, a great deal of effort has gone into trying to pin down exactly what the radio set up was on the airplane at the time it disappeared. It's a difficult task because: 1. The available official paperwork is woefully uninformative. 2. Changes were being made right up to the departure from Miami on June 1. 3. Photographs of the interior of the airplane after that date are nonexistant. We know that the loop was a Bendix product. We know that the Western Electric 20B receiver had no DF capability. We know that AE asked Itasca to transmit letter As on 7500 Kcs, received that transmission, and attempted to DF on it without success. The frequency seems far too high. Their are allegations that a separate DF receiver (possibly experimental, possibly high frequency) was received from the Navy for installation in the airplane prior to the second attempt. No, not evidence of a spy mission, but possibly some additional technical help. Amelia described the airplane's radios in an interview in Karachi and mentioned only the WE receiver under the co-pilot's seat, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. There is considerable evidence to indicate that the wire antenna on the belly of the aircraft was torn off during the takeoff from Lae. We're not sure what the function of that antenna was. The whole radio queston is very frustrating. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:12:56 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: The Noonan Project By the way, I live about a mile from the Jersey City Library and City Hall, and can do some snooping aroung in their records if you think it would be productive tracking the Noonan lead. I need to have something specific to go after before I show up and try to read though everything they have. What are we looking for that might be in the Jersey City archives? Andrew McKenna #1045 ************************************************************* From Ric Sandy? Jerry? ======================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:18:48 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Re: About the forum And the no-land club thanks TIGHAR for not kicking us off the forum....... ************************************************************** From Ric NAWWWW. Reasoned debate is the essence of this kind of work. You want to see a good fight some time, wait until you see me and Randy get into it. So far we've stopped short of actually throwing furniture. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:19:50 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Lambrecht The Lambrecht Report is available anyone who is interested, just contact me at linvil@msn.com . Thanks, Mike ======================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:25:45 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Lambrecht Ric wrote: >Randy, do you recall what you came up with for total available search time >(exclusive of transit time)? No, since the best source of information on cruising speed was obtained from the search for Winslow Reef. I don't believe I ever calculated times over the islands precisely, except to estimate it to be about 5 minutes each to begin to iterate their speed calculation (assumed 90 knots). When that was close to flight times, I used 95, 100, etc, knots to see when flight times became in conflict with listed times from the bridge logs. I used the fastest time consistent with all information, and that was 95 knots, + or - 2 knots. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:29:46 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: The Noonan Project So noted. I'll stand by and be ready to assist any way I can. Stress that I'm not a genealogist -- just a TIGHAR that happens to live in the Boston area Regards: Fred Madio ======================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:08:32 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Canton Engine Has anyone given any thought to th B-25 that crashed on t/o on Canton during the war. Ric- what kind of engines did a B-25 have?????? ol' "bubblr-buster STRIPPEL IS AT IT AGAIN!!!! REGARDS, DICK ************************************************************** From Ric 1. We have found no record of such a crash. 2. The North American B-25 Mitchell had Wright R2600 14 cylinder, double row radials. About as different as it gets from the engine Bruce Yoho describes. 3. Any aircraft that crashed on Canton is not an issue in this case. The point is that Bruce brought the engine TO Canton FROM another island. To bust this bubble you'll need to come with a documentable explanation for a P&W R1340 being on an island in the Phoenix Group other than Canton. ======================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:12:37 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Coax cable SORRY, CAN"T UNDERSTAND YOUR LOGIC. COAX WAS FIRST MFD IN THE MID/LATE '30S. ORIGINALLY USED RUBBER DIALECTRIC!!!!! MUCH WAS HARDLINE MFD FROM COPPER PIPE!!!!!!!! IF WE'RE HISTORIANS, LET'S REALIZE THIS IS A MULTI-DISCIPLINE RESEARCH PROJECT WE'RE ON AND READ EVERY BIT OF RELATED STUFF WE CAN GET OUR HANDS ON!!!!!!! VISIT USED-BOOK STORES AND OLD LIBRARIES. ASK OLD TIMERS. I FOUND AN OLD A&E AT A LOCAL AIRPORT WHO WAS A FOUNT OFINFORMATION. SOMEDAY I"LL TELL THE STORY OF HOW HE FITTED OUR HEROINE'S "PEE TUBE" BY HAND, OF COURSE!!!!! -DICK ======================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:14:48 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Safford's Manuscript Last I heard it was with whatisname in Reno-- Cam Warren. Most of us have a badly marked up copy. p.s. anyone have a good copy????? -dick ======================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:16:06 EST From: Jerry Hamiton Subject: The Noonan Project To Andrew It's great you're there! I never discourage personal initiative, but think Sandy should be the Noonan genealogical coordinator as long as she's willing. I'm now coordinating with her (off line) as we were starting to duplicate effort. At this point, I think we should wait to see what we get from Yuma before starting to dig in Jersey. I'm hoping the Yuma info will give us specific direction for further investigation. What think Sandy? Blue skies, jerry H. #2128 ======================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:20:28 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Badly researched books > I bother with the book "The Sound of Wings" by Mary S. Lovell? >Or any other of the long line of books? YES, IT'S ONE OF THE BEST SO FAR, BUT HAS A COUPLE OF BAD ERRORS WHICH WILL BECOME APPARENT AS YOU READ OTHER STUFF. BEST OVER-ALL IS THE NAVY AND CG REPORTS -- DON'T DISCARD THEM WITH SUCH ABANDON AS RIC DOES --DICK STRIPPEL *************************************************************** From Ric ?????????????? ======================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:21:54 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: The Noonan Project Sorry Fred, I can't resist! You would understand. >> - Noonan cited for driving in wrong traffic lane. (!) << Does this tell us something about Fred's navigation?? I definitely cast a "Yes" vote for a Noonan Project. It looks like there's a lot of interesting stuff to be discovered about the "other person" who was also on that plane. If we find one, we find the other... and the Electra. ======================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:23:54 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Magneto Wire Thanks much for the information on magneto grounding! Re: That shielded cable. I'm starting to feel like I'm picking petals from a daisy... It fits... It fits not... It fits... It fits not... Not thinking in terms of magneto ignition, I'd not thought about how I stop my lawnmower. I ground the sparkplug terminal! I thought, yeah, that will work! No high-voltage on a grounded lead. But what about the ungrounded situation? The high-voltage is there then! The memory banks turned over slowly and there was the foggy thought that a magneto is not quite so simple... A primary and a secondary winding? So, reasearch magnetos! Yes, there are two windings and it's the primary winding that gets grounded to disable the magneto. There will be a voltage pulse induced in the primary winding when the breaker-points open, but it won't be anything like the voltage across the secondary. Back to "It fits" again! I can believe that cable might be adequate and, as you point out, it sure has to be shielded. Now if we could just confirm what sort of connectors were on Amelia's magnetos and the magneto switch! Then we could put the cable in the "definite possibility" catagory. As I see it, we have two possibilities for the cable, a magneto grounding cable, or a receiving antenna connection with the loop antenna probably the best bet. We'll sure be interested in what kind of connector you find on the magneto you mentioned. Is it possibly old enough to be similar to what might have been on Amelia's engines? ======================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:42:44 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: The Noonan Project More good things from the Oakland Tribune: + Noonan filed for divorce from his first wife in Juarez, Mexico on March 3, 1937. Papers filed by his lawyer Salvador Franco Urias. AP dispatch from El Paso. + Noonan's first marriage was to Josie M. Sullivan, July 11, 1927 in Jackson, Mississippi. + Noonan lived in Oakland at 16 Wildwood Avenue. + On March 13, 1937 he was unexpectedly and informally announced as additional navigator by Manning who said, "Noonan's going along with us as far as Howland". Fred was expected to return via the Coast Guard cutter Shoshone. + The Trib reported that Noonan had rounded Cape Horn seven times, 3 by windjammer and 4 by steamer. Also that he had made 18 air passages to Manila. My eyes have gone cross eyed trying to read the small Oak Trib print. I think this is most the Noonan stuff. Lots of other AE info to also dig out later. Blue skies, jham #2128 (since there are other Jerry's, I'm switching to my email call sign). ************************************************************** From Ric YESSSS! Progress. We're starting to get a picture of Fred's life at the time of his involvement with AE. He has been married to Josie for 10 years and has spent most of that time flying for Pan Am. In early 1937 something precipitates a personal crisis and on March 3 he gets a Mexican divorce. I'll betcha we find out that he leaves Pan Am around the same time. (Mid-life crisis. Leave a job gone sour. Leave a bad marriage. Start fresh. Been there. Done that.) Within 10 days he is hooked up with the Earhart flight. We already know why Fred was originally only going as far as Howland. 1. Earhart wanted to do as much of the flight solo as possible. Manning was supposed to leave the flight at Darwin, Australia. 2. Noonan's talents were most needed for the tricky job of finding Howland. 3. There wasn't time to get him a visa for entering New Guinea. Hawaii and Howland were both U.S. territory. Interesting that, given the situation, he marries Mary Bea so soon after meeting her on the boat back from Hawaii. Sound to me like a guy on the rebound. Fascinating stuff. Good work. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:51:27 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Canton Engine Logic >To bust this bubble you'll need to come with a documentable explanation for >a P&W R1340 being on an island in the Phoenix Group other than Canton. We can't conclude its a PW R-1340. *************************************************************** From Ric Let's be clear about the nature of the Canton Engine investigation. What we're dealing with at this point is an anecdote. We don't really know if there was an engine at all. Bruce could be just as full of beans as the people who saw Amelia executed and buried on Saipan. When that spot was excavated by T. C. "Buddy" Brennan (Witness to the Execution, Renaissance House, 1988) no Amelia was found. All Buddy found was a scrap of cloth which was immediately proclaimed to be the blindfold which was ripped from AE's eyes just before she was shot. (At TIGHAR, we usually shoot prisoners with the blindfold on.) After checking out all the checkable aspects of Bruce's story, we have decided that it is credible enough to form the basis of a hypothesis that can be tested. That hypothesis must, by definition, adhere to Bruce's recollections, to wit: A relatively small, nine cylinder, single row, radial engine believed by the finder to be a P&W R1340, was recovered from the reef of one of the Phoenix Islands other than Canton and deposited in a specific dump/junkyard on Canton Island. Our first attempt to test that hypothesis disclosed that the site had been altered subsequent to the engine being deposited there. If our assessment of how that alteration took place is correct, and if the basic hypothesis is true, there should be a P&W R1340 buried there. If excavation of the dump reveals no P&W R1340, then either our guess about what happend to it is wrong, or it was never there to begin with. Either way, we're skunked. All of this is by way of pointing out that it doesn't matter how many or what kind of other engines may be distributed around Canton Island or the Phoenix Group. It's the hypothesis I'm referring to when I say, "To bust this bubble you'll need to come with a documentable explanation for a P&W R1340 being on an island in the Phoenix Group other than Canton." If someone was able to come up a documented incident that explained the events postulated in the hypothesis more easily and credibly than the engine being one of Amelia's, we could forget about the darned dump. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:30:44 EDT From: Gene Dangelo Subject: The Noonan Project I have to agree that the Noonan Project is a very worthwhile consideration. Such research can only yield more treasures of knowledge that will help to paint the background scenario more clearly as to why and how things happened the ways that they did. Some big issues can sometimes pivot on the smallest fact! By the way, as to the coax cable issue, be sure to take a peek at back issues of "The Radio Handbook," (my oldest copy is only 1948, but I'm sure it goes back further) and a lot of the military and trade equipment service manuals from that era, which are still extant, and preserved by a lot of keepers of the radio flame that I have mentioned in past entries. In fact, if anyone can shoot some of those radio equipment model numbers at me again, I'll gladly do some digging into it myself! Also being an amateur genealogist, I'd enjoy checking into Fred Noonan as well. Lastly, being a teacher, with summer coming on , I'll have literally DAYS to spend on a lot of this, exclusively, so I'll be sending in whatever I can find! ---Never tire of the quest!--Gene Dangelo :) *************************************************************** From Ron Dawson r.e.: Jerry's information on Fred's Juarez divorce. Since I live in El Paso, I have some contacts in Cd. Juarez and will see if we can find any official info or copies of papers filed. However, "quickie" divorces were an industry in Juarez for a long time and they were not known for good record keeping. Worth a shot, though. Ron Dawson *************************************************************** From Sandy To Andrew in JC: I concur with Jerry. It's good to know you are there and willing . As soon as we firm up some data on Fred's father, Jersey City may provide some further clues on the family. But right now we're not sure which Noonan family we're looking at. Thanks again. Sandy #2110 ************************************************************** From Ric To Ric re Noonan leaving Pan Am: Good guess, or have you been peeking at the info? My data so far suggests he was fired, or quit Pan Am, at end of 1936/beginning of 1937. Still looking for more specifics on this. I'm wondering if leaving was precipitated by a "car accident". We'll see. Blue skies, jham #2128 *************************************************************** From Ric Just a hunch. When I was in my mid30s I ended a bad 10-year marriage and left a job that had once been rewarding but had since gone sour. Although the two actions were unrelated, both were part of a decision to fix the things that were wrong with my life. I didn't have a drinking problem (no, really, honest, ya gotta believe me) but if I had, I would have seen that as one of the things I was going to fix. I'm beginning to see Fred as a guy full of hope and determination to begin a new and better life, and I suspect that working with Earhart was a big part of that. I thinking he probably busted his butt to do a good job. **************************************************************** From Barbara Wiley In 1989, Ann Pellegreno, famed female aviatrix, flew the Earhart Trail, 1967, as reported in her book, World Flight, met the first wife of Fred Noonan. I have the picture of Katherine(I think this was her name). This woman lives in Florida or did at that time. Fred had two sons. Bea's relatives are in California/near Salinas, name is Gularte. In 1989, Bea's only living sister invited me to her home, showed me all scrapbooks Bea had kept of Fred and her life. Bea was a very accomplished orchid grower and that day her sister showed me the greenhouse in the back with the hybrid called "Amelia". This sister died around 1992 - her son probably has all the memorbilia in his possession. His name is Richard Gularte. Another interesting twist, when Irene Bolam, the woman alleged to be AE incognitor in New Jersey was in the hospital on her death bed in 1982, her hospital room was flooded with this beautiful hybrid orchid. Nurses teased Irene, "Do you have a new beau" and Irene said, "they were sent from a family friend from California." I'd originally heard this story about four years prior to meeting Bea's sister and the visit, unique since "the press and AE researchers" had been held at by for years by this lady and the greenhouse invitation was touching. To add to the mystic, IB was traveling internationally in 1960 70's and has picture taken with the "Noonan" family in Ireland who she had been visiting. Bea's sister had little to say of IB. Barbara *************************************************************** From Ric Sandy? Jerry? et al How does this information track with what you have found? Guarte? Where does that name come in? I can't get Katherine out of Josie M. Sullivan. Anybody got a copy of Ann Pellegrino's book? Two sons? They would have been litle kids when their parents split but they might still be alive. Heck. Josie could still be alive, although she would probably be in her 90s. *************************************************************** From Sandy Ric: Do we know where Fred Noonan was living in *1920* ?? Was he in this country??!! The last Federal Census currently available is the 1920. I didn't check it before, because I didn't have a state! Was he working for PAM AM in FL that early?? Thanks. Sandy #2110 *************************************************************** From Ric Mary Lovell (The Sound of Wings) says he attended Weems School of Navigation in annapolis, MD and then went to work for Pan Am as a navigation instructor in 1925. She cites, as the source, a letter written by PVH Weems in the May 1938 issue of Popular Aviation magazine. Worth checking. 1920 might be a bit early for him to have been in Weems' school. He may have still been at sea. If so, he'll be tough to find. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:39:20 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: The Noonan Project I think I've about exhausted the Oakland Tribune newspaper files on Noonan. Here are a few last tidbits: + Forget Santa Barbara. Fred and Mary never lived there. She was living at his Oakland address and working at her beauty shop when Fred disappeared. In interviews with the Trib, she said, "Fred had had several good business offers and we planned to make our home in Southern California, which we both love so well". The paper reported that part of the household effects were in packing cases ready to be shipped to Hollywood. She is said to have intended to continue with the beauty shop even while living in Hollywood. Separate sources say that at the time of leaving Miami on the flight, Noonan had one PO Box in Hollywood and one in Oakland. + On July 4 Putnam drove to the Noonan home to console Mary. They talked for awhile and when leaving he said, "Keep your chin up, Bee. Don't worry". + On July 7 Mary received mail from Fred which included a letter and a packet of pictures. The letter was dated 22 June and mailed from Java. The pictures were mailed from Venezuela. Noonan's letter is quoted as saying, "Amelia is a grand person for such a trip. She is the only woman flier I would care to make such a trip with, because in addition to being a fine companion she can take hardships as well as a man - and work like one". (Boy, would these letters and pictures be interesting if they still exist!) + The Trib also reported that Noonan left home to go to sea in 1908 at the age of 15. That he served on a munitions carrier between NY and England and later in the Royal British Naval Service. That he served on the British bark "Crompton" in 1910. (If these dates are correct, he couldn't have been born in 1899. It will be interesting to see how this birth date stuff works out) blue skies, -jham #2128 ************************************************************** From Ric That's apparently where Susan Butler got that strange Royal British Naval Service phrase. The Public Record Office at Kew in England may have the log of the Crompton. If the Fred Noonan born in Warren Co. in 1899 is our Fred, it may be that he embellished his background a bit. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:45:03 EDT From: Bruce Yoho Subject: Magneto wire I may have misled you some the P-lead is connected to the prymary winding of the coil and this grounding will prevent an induced current in the secondary winding. no spark will be produced for ignition. The P-lead does not need to be a large wire 20 to 18 gage as it carries 6 volts or less with less than one amp current. Magnetos are users of voltage more than amps. Another interesting fact why the P-lead should be shielded is Magneto's produce AC current. I am loseing favor with the P-lead aspect as all the connectors I can locate in books have at least 1/2 to 1 inch of insulation beyond the terminal cap and a spring to make contact with the primary circuit in the magneto. All have a star shaped bottom with a clip type saftey. I still lean to speaker wire. radios in the early days had a seperate speaker and not intigrated into the radio itself. Bruce PS Vern if you need more on Magnetos I could e-mail off line if I have your address. ************************************************************** From Vern Belden is a good place to send that cable and connector. Their's was the only ad I saw in looking through those '30s aviation and radio related journals. Although I saw no specific reference to shielded wire, they were advertisin in the aviation magazines. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:00:14 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Lambrecht SEE LAMBRECHT'S REPORT FOR FURTHER INFO. RIC HAS A COPY. SEE ALSO THE NAVY'S NARRATIVE REPORT. RIC, IS THERE SOME WAY YOU CAN KEEP THIS SITE UNCLUTTERED WITH STUFF (READ S--T) from PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO DO THE SLIGHTEST REAL RESEARCH? --dick *************************************************************** From Ric Mike Ruiz (linvil@email.msn.com) has generously offered to email a copy of Lambrecht's report to anyone who wants it. Just email him directly. As for keeping the forum uncluttered, I won't post off-topic material but I think that it's important for this forum to be educational as well as productive. *************************************************************** From Dustoff1 Hi, my first message. I'm new to the forum. You're doing great work that is very interesting. Keep it up. Ref your comment: >It's apparent that we need to get a better handle on >how fast these guys were going between islands. I've done some SAR work. My experience is that we flew at (or slightly above -we did want to get there "sometime this year" afterall) best fuel economy to the site if not a life and death thing to maximize time over the zone. If time was essential we flew as fast as practical to the site and reduced speed to something reasonable and fuel efficient for the search. My point is that speeds may have been different (cruise, max endurance, max range, or some combination thereof) for the enroute segments and for time over the target area. I suspect you've already accounted for this and I just missed it. If so, my apologies. Thanks, Dustoff1. **************************************************************** From Ric That's good information, but we need to keep in mind that the procedures you followed were the product of many years of SAR research. There were no such procedures in 1937 and our best indication of the speeds used comes from the kind of analysis of the mission that Randy Jacobson did. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:02:52 EDT From: Dick Strippel Subject: Lady Be Good >Another WWII story with very similar scenario was the ditching of a B-17 >bomber in the Pacific Ocean while enroute to Canton Island from Hawaii. There are also several B-24s that went down and a B-24 that crashed on t/o on Kanton. Check one or more of the Australian WWII web sites. Offhand, I haven't their addresses, but one can search. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:03:53 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Re: About the forum Yes, this forum works like it should thanks in no small part to a moderator who stays right on top of it! I don't know how he finds the time to do it, but we sure appreciate that he does. Having said that, I'll get on with giving him more stuff for him to deal with! ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:05:40 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Bruce's Pilots How is the search for the helicopter pilots going? I bet they will remember the Norwich City. ************************************************************** From Ric Still looking. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:03:44 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Bones, Kilts and videos Anything new from Sydney on the bones? Who is Kilts (re: the bottle)? Does/can TIGHAR sell any videos taken on Niku? Thanks, Mike *************************************************************** From Ric Looks like the bones didn't go to Sydney. They may have gone to England. We're checking that. They may have stayed in Suva at the Central Medical School. If so, they were probably disposed of as recently as 1991 when the school got rid of all of its bone collection. We're now trying to find out just how and where that disposal was carried out. Floyd Kilts was a Coast Guardsman who participated in the disassembly of the Loran station on Gardner in 1946. In 1960 he told a San Diego newspaper reporter about a conversation he had with an islander on Gardner in which it was alleged that bones believed to be those of Amelia Earhart were found on the island by the British magistrate in the early days of the settlement. That newspaper article was our first indication of what has turned out to be one of our most interesting lines of investigation. You'll be able to track the whole thing when you receive your Earhart Anthology. It should arrive in the next day or so. Videos taken on Niku? We have miles of tape, some of which we own and some of which belongs to television networks. Obviously, we can sell our own stuff. It's just a matter of editing together something that is useful to people who are interested in the subject and then setting a price that makes sense. What sorts of things would you (and others) like to see? ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:18:22 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Radios So, just to add to the confusion, we have another antenna on the bottom of the Electra. I had wondered what that was in some of the drawings of the plane. My first thought is: "redundancy." There was already a "V" antenna on the top. Maybe someone thought radio communication would be important. Maybe someone like Paul Mantz (sp). Redundancy would require alternate transmitting and receiving capability as well as another antenna. Maybe ALL of the radio transmitters and recievers that have been associated with the Electra were on board on this flight. If so, that would seem to open up even more possible places for a peice of shielded cable to have been used. ************************************************************** From Ric No Vern. No indication of redundancy. It's a complex topic. Radios and antennas came and went from that airplane like customers at a McDonalds. At the time of the final flight the airplane had three antennas. 1. A dorsal V reaching from a mast just above and behind the cockpit to each of the two vertical fins. 2. A ventral wire reaching from the right hand "chin" pitot mast through a mast near the main beam (spar) to a mast under the belly just forward of the cabin door. 3. A manually rotatable loop (Bendix MN-5?) over the cockpit. We know that the airplane's transmitter (in the aft cabin) and receiver (under the co-pilot's seat) were separate units. From the location of the lead ins it would appear that the dorsal V was connected to the transmitter and the belly wire went to the receiver. Whether the loop went to the same receiver or there was a third dedicated DF radio is unknown. At the time of the first world flight attempt the airplane had two additional antennas. 4. A second belly wire paralleling the first but going down the left hand side of the airplane. 5. A trailing wire antenna deployed from a mast protruding from the underside of the cabin. Both of these were deleted during the repairs which followed the Luke Field mishap. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:19:17 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: DNA Anyone who would like to know just a little more about DNA and mtDNA matching, just a little, not much, might be interested in the book "The Quest for Anastasia," by John Klier and Helen Mingay (1995). The DNA discussion is in about the last 5 pages of Chapter 9. They were dealing with bones dating from 1918. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:26:49 EDT From: Jerry Ellis Subject: Coax Cable In my most recent post I said my colleague would show the picture of the cable in the Sept 30, 1996 Tighar Tracks to an elderly (late seventies) aircraft mechanic/pilot/magneto expert "Skeezix" Adkisson. Skeezix took one look at the photo and said, "It's a radio cable." If you would like more background on Skeezix to improve your confidence that he is an expert, please ask. jerry -- Jerry W. Ellis Carbohydrates, polymers and Professor of Chemistry Chemical Education Department of Chemistry Eastern Illinois University ************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Jerry, but what will improve my confidence will be a piece of cable of known use (or manufacturer's manual showing same) which can be put beside our artifact and shown to be exactly like it. Perhaps Skeeziks can point us toward such a cable or manual. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:33:00 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Radios The frustrating radio question. Do we have everything it's possible to get from Western Electric and Bendix on radio gear that MIGHT have been on the Electra? Of course, I'm wishing for information on connectors used, etc. I'm sure I can dig up information on some kinds of radio equipment of the 30s but aircraft radio may be more difficult. Incidently, any radio reciever would have RDF capability, if it could be connected to a directional antenna such as that loop -- and tuned to a frequency in the range the loop was designed for. *************************************************************** From Ric Not according to avionics repairman Frank Lombardo, TIGHAR 1806, who examined the schematic for the WE 20B receiver. He says it definitely had no DF capability. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:39:11 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Ground Penetrating Radar What happened with the GPR? Re: "Hell and High Water"... I presume there was no opportunity to try it. *************************************************************** From Ric (sigh) We didn't have Ground Penetrating Radar with us and there is no GPR mentioned in Hell and High Water. ======================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:50:03 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Post-loss radio signals Among the articles in the Oakland Tribune I found a very interesting one on Earhart radio signals after they disappeared. I don't recall ever seeing this info elsewhere. + Oak. Trib, Friday July 9, 1937. An interview with Lieut. Johnson, Coast Guard communications officer, Fort Funston. "We know we picked up signals from the plane on Friday night, Saturday and Sunday - three days running. There is no questioning their authenticity. As the plane could not broadcast even carrier signals from the water, they must have originated from land. On Sunday night, when station KGMB in Honolulu broadcast a request to Miss Earhart to respond if she heard the broadcast by turning on her carrier signal for one minute and then turn it off four times, the response was immediate and as requested. There is no doubting the authenticity of those signals on Sunday night. The Coast Guard station in Honolulu and the Pan-American Airways station picked them up and a triangulation of the carrier waves by high frequency direction finders placed them definitely as originating from the Phoenix Islands." The newspaper report goes on to say, "Lt. Johnson places no credence in the many reported voice messages supposed to have been received by amateur radio stations. Not a single voice message or one tapped out in code has been received by the Navy or CG radio operator since the last message broadcast while Miss Earhart still was in the air." For what it's worth. blue skies, -jham #2128 *************************************************************** From Ric That is indeed an interesting account. ======================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:26:58 EDT From: unknown Subject: videos Ric wrote: >Obviously, we can sell our own stuff. It's just a matter of editing >together something that is useful to people who are interested in the subject >and then setting a price that makes sense. What sorts of things would you >(and others) like to see?>> Ric, I would like to buy the video of you personally discovering AE's Lockheed. Please let me know when it is ready! *************************************************************** From Ric Trust me. *************************************************************** From Mike Ruiz Ric, I am interested in any general survey video of Niku, one that would give forum partcipants such as myself a good idea as to: how dense the foliage is, how wide are beaches, how cluttered is the island from previous habitation, good views of the lagoon and reef in question etc. I realize editing is costly and time consuming, I am interested in whatever you could send out now. TIGHAR, Unplugged. I received the Earhart Project Book TIGHAR produced. Thanks. I highly recommend it to forum participants. And back to videos, if the Sports Illustrated swimsuit team went with any of the expeditions, that's the one I want. ************************************************************* From Ric The project book Mike is talking about is the Earhart Project Anthology. I think a general This Is Nikumaroro sort of video would indeed be useful for those who are interested in the research. However, at present I'm desperately trying to get the new TIGHAR Tracks written and to the printer. Then I need to update the website. I'll get to the video as soon as I can. Sorry. The Sports Illustrated swimsuit team passed on our invitation, and the TIGHAR swimsuit team is not much of a substitute. ======================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:47:19 EDT From: JBMill Subject: The Noonan Project I have Ann Pellegreno address/phone if it would help-have been out of touch with her but she's an old friend from the 60's..................... *************************************************************** From Ric In recent years Ann has become an adherent of the various conspiracy theories and would not, I imagine, think much of our efforts. If you would like to contact her as an old friend and ask if she has an address or phone number for Fred's first wife, that might be very useful. *************************************************************** From Bill Briska Regarding the possible birth place of Mr. Noonan and by way of clarification...Warren County, Illinois is located in west central Illinois, approximately 180 air miles southwest of Chicago. A rural area, the county's current population is about 22,000. The largest city is Monmouth (population of 11,000 in 1990), which is also the boyhood home of Wyatt Earp. The largest nearby city is Galesburg, approx pop 35,000 (1990) which is located in next county to the east. While Warren County is in Chicago's general economic orbit, it is not considered part of the Chicago area. Rather it is piece of rural Illiniois, farm country both back in the 1880-90's and today. Bill Briska, #471, (and proud of it) ************************************************************** From Ric Good information. Thanks Bill. ************************************************************* From Jerry Hamilton A short Noonan "history" for those not keeping score. This is what we think we know, although most of it still needs verification by marriage certificates, etc. He was born in 1893 (although our Chicago census data says 1899). He may have 3 sisters and two brothers. He went to sea in 1908 at age 15, after attending Chicago public school and a private academy. It is generally reported that he was a seaman/mariner for 22 years. During this time he supposedly attended the London Nautical College, maybe Weems in Annapolis, and was in the British naval service. He married Josie Sullivan in July, 1927, possibly having children. He was with Pan Am in Miami by 1930 until 1935 (as navigation instructor, pilot, manager of Port Au Prince, and other assignments). He was considered one of the finest navigators around, possibly the finest flying navigator (which was different from sea navigation). He was transferred to Oakland in 1935 and pioneered Pan Am Clipper routes to Manila (first flight Nov. 22, 1935). There is no info so far on whether his first wife came with him (maybe the fact that she is not mentioned at this time tells the story). He left, or was fired, from Pan Am at the end of 1936, start of 1937. He married Mary Martinelli in March. You know the rest. TO RON DAWSON: If you think you can find any divorce records, go for it. Also, if you can, check the El Paso newspaper on or around that date to see if they reported any more than I found in the Oakland Trib. TO BARBARA WILEY: Can you check Noonan's first wife's name based on your reference (you said Katherine, our info says Josie M. Sullivan)? The fact that she lived in Florida makes sense, particularly if it was the Miami area. Can you provide any more detail on where specifically? And any more detail about Fred's kids? Or any more detail about his parents or siblings? Regarding Mary B's sister Mrs. Gularte. Do you know her name? Did she live in Salinas, or simply somewhere near by? I'll try to contact the son so any more detail you can provide would be useful. Apologies for all the questions, but you have some interesting new information. You can reach me directly at jham@ccnet.com. Blue skies, jham #2128 *************************************************************** From Russ Matthews, TIGHAR 0509CE >Anybody got a copy of Ann Pellegrino's book? Yes. "World Flight: The Earhart Trail" by Ann Holtgren Pellegreno (The Iowa State University Press, 1971). The book is a pretty staight foward account of Pellegreno's 1967 commemoration of the Earhart's final flight. There is no mention of a meeting with Noonan's first wife, but I gather that is supposed to have happened in 1989 - long after the book was published (right, Barbara?) Pellegreno is now a staunch supporter of Joe Gervais' theory that AE survived and lived out her life as Irene Bolam. ======================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:53:10 EDT From: Simon Ellwood Subject: Wreck Photo I have a copy of the book Bill Zorn recommended in an earlier posting - "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by Rene J. Francillon. I agree with Bill that this is probably the best ref. book on Jap aircraft of this era. Apart from the Ki-34 & Ki-54, there appear to be no other Japanese contenders for the wreck photo. Following the lines of Jeff Glickman's method of establishing engine cowl dimensions etc. as a function of prop size, I've applied this method to the 3D silhouettes of the Ki-34 and Ki-54 to arrive at percentage figures for the cowl outer and inner dimensions. Obviously these figures aren't accurate to many decimal places - the drawings may be subject to errors and my measurements aren't that accurate - I've allowed quite a large error margin of 1% on my measurements. From Jeff's wreck measurements:- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Assuming 108" prop, Outer cowl = 54" +/- 1.34" Inner cowl = 37.1" +/- 0.3" Thus, as a percentage of prop size:- Prop = 100 % Outer cowl = 50.0 % +/- 1.2 % Inner cowl = 34.4 % +/- 0.3 % From My measurements of the Ki-34 "Thora" Silhouette:- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Prop = 100 % Outer cowl = 43 % +/- 1 % Inner cowl = 31 % +/- 1 % From My measurements of the Ki-54 "Hickory" Silhouette:- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Prop = 100 % Outer cowl = 48 % +/- 1 % inner cowl = 32 % +/- 1 % From this, I think we can certainly eliminate the Ki-34 from consideration, it's props are simply too big compared to the cowl even after allowing generous error margins. The Ki-54 is much closer, and although still a couple of percent out perhaps we should not eliminate this yet as a candidate - unless further infomation comes to light - When's the TIGHAR tracks feature on the photo to be published Ric?? I'm just dying to see analysis & better quality/enhanced pictures. I only have the small scan on the web page to work with. Simon Ellwood #2120 ************************************************************** From Ric I agree with you that the Ki-34 is not much of a prospect. I'm hoping to have TIGHAR Tracks ready for the printer by the end of next week. It'll take them a couple weeks to produce the finished magazine, then we'll mail it out to the membership. ======================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:57:31 EDT From: Dick Pingrey Subject: Cable ID The photos arrived yesterday and I have sent them on to Ty Sundstrom of Dawn Patrol Aviation, 25000 Road 188, Exeter, CA 93221. I asked Ty to send his findings directly to you with an information copy to me. I asked him to identify the cable assembly if possible; to tell what make and model aircraft(s), engine(s), radio component(s), etc. it came from; its function or purpose; where we might obtain additional information and, if he can't be certain of an identification, his best guess. Exeter is about 10 miles from Visalia (midway between Fresno & Bakersfield). There has been excessive rain in that area (like most of California) and many roads are flooded. There could be some delay in the mail being delivered so I wouldn't expect an answer for at least a week. Hopefully Ty can give us a good answer. He is certainly the best at this sort of thing that I have even seen. Dick Pingrey **************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Dick. Standing by. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 06:53:59 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: GPR Sorry about the confusing reference... "Hell and High Water" indicated to me that there might have been a lot of things you didn't have opportunity do. My question about GPR results from the Sept. 30, 1996 issue, "Aukaraine Survey." Do you expect to be able to have a GPR rig next time? **************************************************************** From Ric We're looking inot Ground Penetrating Radar as a possible means of searching for an unmarked grave. We'll need to be sure that it will do the job and that we can deploy it effectively in that environment. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 06:56:58 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Radios >Not according to avionics repairman Frank Lombardo, TIGHAR 1806, who examined >the schematic for the WE 20B receiver. He says it definitely had no DF >capability. No point in arguing RDF technology... AE and Fred were not able to utilize their DF capability, whatever reciever the loop was connected to. You have Schematics? Are the connectors called out? Sometimes they are called out on schematics. Perhaps more likely on a wiring diagram. Do you have any of the other documentation -- such as a parts list? ************************************************************** From Ric No. Frank was doing all of that independently and, unfortunately, he is no longer active in the project. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 06:57:52 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Magneto Wire To Bruce Yoho Thanks to your information and my own researching of magnetos, I have sufficient understanding for our purposes. Thanks much!! ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:02:12 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Post-loss radio signals >Oak. Trib, Friday July 9, 1937. An interview with Lieut. Johnson, Coast >Guard communications officer, Fort Funston. "We know we picked up signals >from the plane on Friday night, Saturday and Sunday - three days running.... This is VERY interesting! I wonder if it can be verified in any way??? ************************************************************** From Ric That the Coast Guard and others were convinced that they were hearing signals from the Earhart plane is easy to verify. We have numerous official communications confirming that. The only way I know of to verify whether or not they were right is to find the airplane. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:14:42 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Post loss radio (cont) Oak. Trib, Friday July 9, 1937... At least it's not a story told long after the fact. We might hope a Coast Guard radio log might still exist... And a Pan-Am station log? It would be too much to expect a newspaper article to mention the frequency on which the carrier was detected. I presume KGMB was (is?) an AM broadcast station. Would some sort of station log still exist, and might it contain some reference to such an unusual sort of broadcast. This might indicate whether or not such a thing was actually done. I can believe that AE and Fred might have been listening to the Honolula station. It was probably one of very few they could hear hoping to discover whether anyone had noticed they were missing. There is indication that high-frequency (above AM broadcast band) radio direction finding was problematical in the '30s. If these events happened at all, we might still question the reliability of triangulation placing the source in the Phoenix Islands. It would sure be tempting to believe it was for real! *************************************************************** From Ric The KGMB exercise is well documented, although the results were not as unambiguous as the article implies. The Pan Am bearings on suspected signals from Earhart were taken on very weak transmissions and at distances far beyond the designed range of the equipment. Also, at no time did two stations take bearings on the same signal. In the end, the post-loss signals are intriguing and tantalizing, but unverifiable. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:17:58 EDT From: Don Jordan Subject: Cable ID re Dick Pingrey's expert in Exeter. I go to Exeter often as I live only 75 mile from there..if that's of any help. Don ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:30:46 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: This and That (NOTE from Ric: Mike has asked a whole bunch of questions which, to save space, I'll answer as we go along.) QUESTION: What info. do you have on Fox and Short? Are they alive? Addresses? Interviews? ANSWER: Both dead in the 1970s. No interviews we know of, although Short wrote a diary-like letter to his father during the search which is very informative and revealing about the attitudes of the pilots toward the operation (Quote: This whole business is certainly a royal pain in the neck...). QUESTION: Do you know if Lambrecht was ever interviewed before he died? ANSWER: Yes. Fred Goerner interviewed him on audio tape. I've never heard the tape or seen a complete transcript. It may be at the Nimitz Museum in Fredricksburg, Texas which, I understand, got Fred's papers. Somebody want to check that out? QUESTION: What about Noonan's lighter? First I heard of it reading through the TIGHAR Earhart Anthology you just sent me. ANSWER: We don't know that it is Noonan's lighter. It's probably not Noonan's lighter. It's a Japanese copy, widely marketed in the U.S. in the mid-1930s, of the Ronson Whirlwind design. It was found buried in the sand on the island's well-traveled southwestern shore. We have no photo of Noonan using a lighter. One photo appears to show him lighting a cigarette with a match. As an artifact, the lighter seems to be a dead end. QUESTION: What ever happened to the search for Seaman 1st Class J. L. Marks, the supposed back seater for Lambrecht? ANSWER: Never found him. QUESTION: You mentioned the Colorado's log. Do you have it? ANSWER: Yup. And the log of the Itasca, among others. QUESTION: Who flew with Fox and Short? Any attempts to find them? ANSWER: Fox's observer was Radioman 3rd Class Williamson. Short's was a Lt. Chillingworth. Both are dead. QUESTION: How about the metal ring supposedly from a clock face? ANSWER: It's a bezel ring from a cheap pocket watch attached to which is what appears to be the sort of key you use to open a can of sardines. Buried in the same section of beach as the lighter. Wierd, but not exactly diagnostic. QUESTION: Are there any "hits" that Oceaneering International picked up that a TIGHAR equipped expedition can dive? ANSWER: Oceaneering's sonar did not pick up anything worth eyeball investigation. QUESTION: It appears TIGHAR has searched Ritiati quite well, as that was the site of the village, and, with Yoho's account, a likely place where wreckage could have washed ashore. ANSWER: The village area has been fairly well searched but there are some specific sites there that we'd like to do in more detail. QUESTION: What percentage of Nutiran has TIGHAR searched? Taraia? ANSWER: Nutiran, maybe 5 percent. Taraia, not really at all. QUESTION: Gilbertese relocation. I know TIGHAR has done some looking in the Solomons. Any other candidates? ANSWER: Yes , we've talked to people in the Solomons and , of course, on Funafuti. We've also interviewed former residents of Nikumaroro who now live in in Tarawa and Kiritimati (Christmas Island). There are some other folks in Tarawa we'd like to talk to - like the old lady we've heard of who was the wife of the island's native medical practioner and (supposedly) says that she was once shown the grave of a pilot on Gardner. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:34:41 EDT From: Jerry Ellis Subject: Anthology What is the cost of the latest version of the Anthology and will a personal check suffice? jerry **************************************************************** From Ric $25. A personal check will suffice just fine. Thanks. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:01:50 EDT From: Mike Ruiz and the No Land Club Subject: Lambrecht analysis Thoughts on the Lambrecht Report: We believe the Report indicates a careful, comprehensive search was conducted. Quote from report: "Visibility and state of the sea as has been noted, were such that it is believed an object on the water even as small as a rubber boat could have been seen a distance of at least five miles and probably further. Indeed in every instance when the planes were on their return leg the ship was sighted at a distance in excess of thirty miles." ...extremely good visibility made it highly probable that the missing plane would have been found.... About M'Kean Island: walls of several old buildings apparently or some sort of adobe con-struction, were still standing About Gardner: On the SS Norwich City: She lay high and almost dry head onto the coral beach with her back broken in two places. The lagoon at Gardner looked sufficiently deep and certainly large enough so that a seaplane or even an airboat could have landed or taken off in any direction with little if any dif-ficulty. Given a chance, it is believed that Miss Earhart could have landed her plane in this lagoon and swam or waded ashore. In fact, on any of these islands it is not hard to believe that a forced landing could have been accomplished with no more damage than a good barrier crash or a good wetting. On Hull noted natives ... waving their loin cloths ... ... small shacks could be seen among the groves of coconut palms, About Phoenix Island: ... stagnant pool of rusty water ... ... tile stone cairn on the east beach .... About Canton: ... a careful search was made of the island and its lagoon. ... still remained the shacks and various constructions of the eclipse expedition. It is clear the flight crew was very observant. Could they have missed the Electra? Sure. But not likely. I believe these searches were careful and considered, not hurried and/or poorly conducted. If Lambrecht had any reason to land on Gardner (Niku), he would have. I think Lambrecht very much wanted to find Amelia, as summed in the final line of his report "And it is to be hoped that in the very near future newspapers will ring with the headline, "AMELIA FOUND"." As we learn more, including yesterdays fairly strong support for radio signals, we think (one of TIGHAR's scenarios) that the plane was landed on the reef flat. Then the tide took the aircraft. An excellent depiction and picture that details what we are saying, for those interested in studying the details, can be found in the November 1989 TIGHAR TRACKS, Vol. 5, No. 4. This is in the Earhart Project Book. With radio signals ceasing late 4 July, the aircraft was swept away between late 4 July and 9 July. It may or may not have left an engine on the reef on the way out. Over the years, the engine, and parts seen by the natives, were washed back up from the ocean. Debris may have been caught in crevices on the reef wall dropping down, only to be returned to Niku by nature over time. This is what we think, and this is why Lambrecht did not see any evidence of an Electra on Niku. It wasn't there. **************************************************************** From Ric Your scenario is attractive for several reasons: 1. It explains why Lambrecht and company saw no airplane. 2. It explains why the New Zealand survey party that spent Dec. 1938/Jan. 1939 mapping Nutiran district did not see an airplane. 3. It explains why the more credible of the post-loss radio messages ceased at midnight on 4 July. 4. It explains why the castaway campsite found by Gallagher in 1940 was so sparse. 5. It explains why island residents in later years saw wreckage on the reef and up in the treeline on Nutiran and Taraia. 6. It explains why Bruce's engine was there. The only problem I have with it is the notion that the action of the surf sucked the airplane seaward rather than driving it up up onto beach. When we were there in '91 we tried an experiment where we placed a semi-buoyant object (a weighted buoy) fairly far out on the reef-flat at low tide. When the tide came in, the thing traveled exclusively shoreward. Maybe I would just rather hope that we have a nice big hunk of wreckage buried in the bushes on Nutiran than think that all we can expect to find is shards buried in the beach. That darn wreck photo is so enticing. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:07:49 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Zapruder film Several years ago, an attorney named Posner wrote a book on the Kennedy assasination called "Case Closed". One item I noted with interest was what Posner was able to do with the Zapruder film. Modern, recently developed photographic enhancements enabled observations to be made that were not previously possible. Have there been any leaps in technology in the last few years that may apply to a re-analysis of the Oceaneering sonar data? Has TIGHAR already beat this one to death? Have you gotten 2nd and 3rd opinions on the readouts? If Lambrecht can miss an Electra, Oceaneering can miss a shaded pixel. *************************************************************** From Ric Tough question. Oceaneering still has the raw data but we own it so we could certainly get it.. Analysis, however, is expensive (too expensive). We'd need someone who had the knowledge and the software and the time to tackle the job for free. Know anybody like that? ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:11:54 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Coax/shielded cable Re: ARRL Handbook, etc. The Amateur Radio area seemed a good place to look for what was being used for connection to antennas in the mid '30s. The hams were quick to pick up whatever was the latest thing in radio technology. I didn't find an old ARRL Handbook but I do have access to QST back at least as far as 1920. They may even go back to the "spark transmitter" days! All the way up to 1940 I find no indication of the use of co-ax for antenna connection. It's all open, parallel-wite transmission lines, usually 600 ohm. Or it's just a single conductor to the antenna and an earth connection. Today, I visited a local group involved in restoring a couple of old airplanes. They have a "Connie" and a Martin-404 in progress right now... And they have quite a collection of old stuff including some radio gear. The few radio transmitters and receivers I could find that were of about the right vintage had no connectors of the kind on the TIGHAR cable. The connections were all the single-conductor, "binding-post" sort. A binding-post for the antenna and one for a "ground" connection to the aircraft. There were no engines of the right sort to look for possible places for the cable in the magneto wiring. The more recent engines certainly had no such connectors or cables. ======================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:23:01 EDT From: Sandy Campbell Subject: The Noonan Project We certainly have alot to work with, but the key words here are, "most of it still needs verification"... The six year age difference is what's bothering me. Some of the other math is alittle odd too... Jerry has been putting his eyes out reading tiny print on Oakland Tribune microfilm, and this is providing us with some good starting points. We certainly know more about Fred than we did a few weeks ago. But we still have many conflicting names, dates, and ages, as well as many "unquestioned" references. Not meaning to be a wet blanket..., just think it important that the many folks out there reading the forum still understand that very little is yet, "carved in stone". Jerry: Is Oakland in San Francisco County? If so can you look up and send me the mailing address for the County Clerk's Office? Thanks. Really appreciate all your help! Sandy #2110 ======================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:48:45 EDT From: Debbie Hitchens Subject: The Noonan Project Oakland is in Alameda County, I don't remember which one San Fran is in. (I spent 5 years in that area, including the earthquake in '89) Debbie Hitchens *************************************************************** From Tom Roberts #1956 Oakland is in Alameda County. Their Home Page is: http://www.co.alameda.ca.us/welcome.htm ======================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:52:45 EDT From: Wiley Rollins Subject: The Noonan Project I'm only 30 miles from Fredericksburg, TX and the Nimitz Museum, which incidentally is quite a place, so I'll look for Fred's papers. Wiley #2090 **************************************************************** From Ric Cool. ======================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 08:02:39 EDT From: Ann Subject: The Noonan Project I assume from the comments AE made in LAST FLIGHT about Noonan's accidents, March 1937 might be a good starting point. Ann#2101 *************************************************************** From Ric We know (from a newspaper article Jerry Hamilton found) that one accident happened on April 4, 1937 in Fresno, CA. Fred and Mary Bea were married in Yuma, AZ on March 27th. They lived in Oakland. Seems likley that the accident in Fresno happened when they were on there way home from the wedding/honeymoon. It was a head-on collision but they must not have been going very fast. Fred got a skinned hand. Mary Bea cut her knee and scalp. The other car was driven by a woman with an infant. They received minor cuts and bruises. Fred was cited for driving in the wrong lane. Questions: What day of the week was it when they were married and when the accident happened? How long did it take to drive from Yuma to Oakland in 1937? ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:24:15 EDT From: Ann Subject: The Noonan Project according to the reference source CALENDAR FOR 250 YEARS,1753 to 2002, March 27,1937 = saturday and April 4,1937= sunday. Ann #2101 ************************************************************** From Ric Makes sense. They get married in Yuma on a Saturday, take a one week honeymoon, and are driving home to Oakland on the following Sunday when the accident happens. Based on this admittedly scant and speculative evidence I'd say that fatigue, rather than booze, was the most likely cause. **************************************************************** From Ann Yuma to Oakland is 652 miles with a 1990's driving time of 9:48.(according to a driving atlas) I'm still trying to research the driving speeds in the 1930s...if there were any. Ann#2101 *************************************************************** From Ric That's a tough kind of number to come up with. You usually have to rely upon anecdotal recollections. For example: In the early 1950s my family used to occasionally drive from upstate NY to central Florida, a distance of roughly a thousand miles. It took three days of daytime travel. Today, if you have the will and the bladder, you can do it in about 24 straight hours. My guess would be that to come up with a 1937 driving time for a trip like Yuma to Oakland you probably need to at least double the 1990s figure. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:25:21 EDT From: Tom King Subject: The Noonan Project Ric -- remember that the Nimitz Museum is where the engine is that supposedly someone thought was Amelia's but that turned out to be Japanese. I had some correspondence with the curator and thought I'd get there this month, but my class in Ft. Worth has been cancelled so I won't. I'll try to find the name of the curator and pass it on before I but out of here. TK ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:36:41 EDT From: Ron Dawson Subject: The Noonan Project I'll give these two articles verbatim - you can delete whatever you think is irrelevant. from: El Paso Times, March 14, 1937: F.J.Noonan, veteran flier, selected Saturday by Amelia Earhart Putnam to be her navigator on the first two legs of her round-the-world flight, left El Paso about a week ago after a 10-day visit here. Howard Archer, 1140 Rio Grands, with whom Noonan often visited as he stayed at the Hilton Hotel, said Saturday night that Noonan is accredited as being one of the foremost aerial navigators of the world. According to a United Press bulletin from Oaklnad, Caif., Noonan, chosen in a surprise move by Mrs. Putnam, will leave the plane at Howland Island, the first stop after Honolulu. "Noonan has had a colorful career", Archer related. "His father was chief of Secret Service in Chicago, and later was transferred to London. While in London, the son became a lieutenant in the British Navy. Later, aviation attracted him. "He was the first navigator on the Miami-Buenos Aires run, and continued in this capacity when Pan American Airways took over this route. Later he was appointed Caribbean manager for Pan-American, stationed at Port-Au-Prince, Haiti. Transferred again to Alameda Airport, he was the original navigator to fly to Honk Kong when the line was extended there". Archer said. Mrs. Putnam was expected to start her journey Sunday night. from: El Paso Times, March 16, 1937: Frederick J. Noonan, 42, Oakland, Calif., veteran trans-Pacific flyer, who will accompany AE on her round-the world flight, has filed suit for divorce from his wife, Mrs. Josie M. Sullivan Noonan, in the Juarez Civil Court, it was learned Monday. The divorce suit was filed March 3 by Noonan's attorney, Salvador Franco Urias. The divorce decree will be granted on mutual consent grounds within three weeks, court attaches said. The couple was married in Jackson, Miss. July 11, 1927. Noonan came to El Paso two weeks ago to sign his divorce papers, and to establish his residence in Juarez. After the completion of the round-the world-flight, Noonan will come to El Paso, he notified his attorney. Noonan, until a month ago, was employed by Pan-American Airways. He was navigation officer on the pioneering flight made by the Pan-American Clipper from Alameda, Calif. to Manila in 1935. Before taking up aviation, Noonan was master mariner, with 22 years of ocean navigation. Noonan ran away from home in 1908, at the age of 15, and went around Cape Horn seven times, three times in a windjammeer. During the World War, Noonan served as a munitions carrier between New York and England. Noonan will be Miss Earhart's relief navigator. Ron Dawson *************************************************************** From Ric I have deleted nothing from Ron's post. This is excellent stuff with some new leads to follow. Way to go Ron! ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:02:21 EDT From: Chris Greenberg Subject: Satellite Imagery I don't know what use this may be as I've not had time to thoroughly research it, but on the Central Intelligence Agency's website, they have an area listing some additional links; one of which being 'Samples of Recently Declassified Satellite Imagery at the United States Geological Survey World Wide Web Site'. It allows you to search by Geographic Coverage and/or Acquisition Date. Moreover, once a specific target has been identified, and the search finished, it gives detailed information on the search results, including but not limited to the acquisition date, the camera type, image type, polarity, camera resolution, etc. Additionally, areas can be searched using the exact latitude and longitude coordinates. The address for the US Geological Survey website is: http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/dclass/dclass.html The link from this page to the actual GLIS page, where the search parameters are requested and the search is conducted is: http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/Webglis/glisbin/search.pl?DISP Hope this helps. I'll be checking it out further later in the week and if you can give me latitude and longitude of Howland I'll check. Thanks and good luck to all. Chris Greenberg- *************************************************************** From Ric I think that Mike Ruiz has a handle on this source (right Mike?). Howland is of little interest to us. We're pretty sure she's not there. Niku is at 4 degrees 40 minutes South, 174 degrees 32 minutes West. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:23:11 EDT From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Tax Deductions I assume that all our efforts on behalf of TIGHAR are tax deductible (including car milage, copy expenses, telephone expenses, etc). As long as we keep good records. Correct? Blue skies, jham #2128 ************************************************************** From Ric Excellent point. Yes. TIGHAR is a 501 (c) (3) public charity. Any money you spend supporting the organization or its work is tax deductible "within the limits of the law" (as they say). Anytime you send money to TIGHAR we send you an official receipt which you can use for tax purposes. Money you spend doing research is also deductible. Check with your tax preparer (as they also say) but mileage, phone calls, postage, motel rooms, etc. etc. fall into this category. Be prepared to document everything you claim. Two caveats. You can't charge for your time, and trips that you take for TIGHAR research must not include a "significant element of personal enjoyment." No kidding. That's what the law says. Fortunately, as team members can verify, that is seldom a problem on TIGHAR expeditions. So everybody get out there and research, research, research. Just be sure not to have any fun doing it. Is this a weird country or what? ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:33:14 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Lambrecht Report I'm happy to report that many requests have been made for an e-mail copy of the Lambrecht Report. Please post that I responded to everyone who requested a copy. If you requested a copy, and did not get one from me, please ask again. I may have missed you or gotten your e-mail address wrong due to the large number of responses I have made. Love to mother *************************************************************** From Ric When we get our act together here we'll be mounting a great many such sources on the website. We'll charge a nominal fee for downloading as is customary in the sientific/historical community. We may also do an Amelia Earhart Research CD. No, this will not be the team members singing all the songs from the Niku expeditions. It would be all of the many, many original documents pertaining to the case that we have assembled over the past ten years. And speaking of documents. Effective today we're bumping the price for the Earhart Project Anthology from $15 to $25. Fifteen bucks just doesn't cover the cost of printing out, handling and mailing the 50-some page compilation of all of the Earhart Project articles that have appeared in TIGHAR Tracks. If your order is already in, don't sweat it. You're grandfathered. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:36:26 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Niku, Kanton or both? Are you planning for joint Niku/Kanton mission, or one of the two? Mike *************************************************************** From Ric Another trip to Kanton may happen later this year if we can arrange for some kind of digging equipment. We're presently investigating possibilities. NIKU IIII is now scheduled for September/October of 1999. We would probably not do a combined expedition. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:41:31 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: Coax/shielded cable I hope Belden may be able to at least date that cable. We're sure having no luck with finding a place for it on AE's Electra. I continue to think the connection from the loop antenna to the RDF reciever may be the best remaining possibility. Thinking RDF in general: I wonder if that antenna we know nothing about (the one that may have been lost on takeoff from Lae) might have been related to the RDF reciever. An essentially omni-directional antenna is often used along with a loop to resolve the "double null" problem -- is it ahead or behind? The two antenna arrangment can be tuned up to produce a single null as the loop is rotated. So they may have lost that antenna, they could still have used the loop and found Howland -- if either had known how to use RDF. When you can move about, as an aircraft centainly can, you can resolve the "double null" ambiguity. You just need two RDF bearings. Ideally, you would get one bearing then make a 90 degree turn and fly untill you could could get a significantly different bearing. When near the transmitter, you wouldn't have to go far. Plot the two bearings and they cross at the transmitter location. Then you just fly that LOP until you get to the transmitter. It's Ironic, and sad, to think how easily AE and Fred could have found Howland if they had only known a little abour RDF technology. They could have flown right to the Itasca, with or without an omini-directional antenna to resolve the "double null" ambiguity. RDF technology working well in the mid-30s. I noticed an article in an issue of "Aero Digest" from the early 30s about experimental evaluation of RDF by Pan Am (I think) on flights from California to Hawaii. There was a diagram of positions as determined by RDF along the way. A California station was used about half-way, then they switched to a station in Hawaii. The RDF points were very close to being on-course at both ends. There may have been a 50-mile wide error band about half-way. An average line through the points would have been almost exactly on-course. *************************************************************** From Ric I spoke with the people at Belden yesterday. So far they have determined that the inner layer of insulation is too deterioriated to test to see whether it is rubber or plastic. They're now working on the outer layer and should be able to make that determination. If the outer layer turns out to be rubber, it would be very unusual for the inner layer to be plastic. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:44:20 EDT From: Vern Klein Subject: RDF playtime Rather off-topic but maybe interesting to some. It accured to me that a little transistor radio would be a pretty good RDF reciever for the AM broadcast band. Being very much an experimentalist (tinkerer!), I decided to see how well it might work. Of course, I had to deal with the "double-null" ambiguity. I rubber-banded the little radio on one end of a 1" by 4" about 18" long and a magnetic compass, no more than a toy, on the other end. There's a pretty strong magnet in the radio speaker, had to get the compass away from that. Choosing an AM radio station I was pretty sure was somewhere west of me. I went out in the yard and took a compass bearing on it by rotating the whole rig until I got a null in the signal. Then I drove south about 30 blocks and did it again. The bearing was definitely different. For good measure, I went another 30 blocks south and took a third bearing. Again different. I plotted the three LOPs on a city map. They did NOT all intersect at one point, but did box in a triangular area to the west. Then I headed to that area I found the antenna and it was, at least, inside the boxed in area! I think I can say I'd located the antenna within about 5 blocks. Not bad for such a crude rig and without taking great care to ge the best possible bearings. A thing to be aware of, if anyone should care to play around with this sort of thing: All radios such as this incorporate an "automatic gain control" circuit. This tends to work against getting a null. The thing keeps increasing gain to try to keep the sound at a constant level. With a moderately strong signal, you can't detect a null. You have to either select a weak signal, or de-tune the radio to, in effect, reduce signal strength. This does not effect directivity of the built-in antenna, which behaves very much like AE's loop antenna. It's a simple matter to observe how this works using any station of known location. But keep in mind that the transmitter and antenna may not be a the location of the studio which is probably what will show in the phone book. You might have to call and ask about antenna location. ************************************************************* From Ric That's our Vern. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:53:16 EDT From: unknown Subject: Digest access a friend & I wish to receive back issues of EARHARTFORUM digest (but not all at once)---what is the procedure?? Have there really been 75 issues of the digest??????????????---regards ************************************************************** From Ric Everything that has appeared on the forum is archived and accessible. We'll be putting out a posting which explains exactly how to get at it (just as soon as we figure it out here). Should have it for everyone in the next few days. There's a new digest each day so I guess there have been at least 75 issues. ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:01:33 EDT From: Sandy Campbell Subject: The Noonan Project Regarding driving time in the '30s..., my mother recalls riding from San Antonio, TX to Brownsville, TX in mid '30s and her cousin would hang his hat over the speedometer, so her grandmother couldn't see how fast they were going.... ~60s. That was in a newer 1932 Ford. Newly weds, after a honeymoon might have had more than fatigue or booze to distract them, too.... Sandy #2110 ************************************************************** From Ric Now what could distract a guy enough to make him drift into the wrong lane? Is this off topic? ======================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:06:35 EDT From: Sandy Campbell Subject: The Noonan Project NOTE: March 1937 FN, age 42..........................1937-42=1895 "Ran away" 1908 age 15.........................1908-15=1893 ** Only FN listed in May 1900 IL age 5 months.....1900-~1=1899 (** others possible, though) I think we're getting close!! Sandy *************************************************************** From Ric Looks to me like all the contemporaneous sources are supporting a circa 1894 birth date which means either: a. The 1899 Fred Noonan is a different guy. b. Fred was consistent in representing his age to be 5 or 6 years greater than it actually was. ======================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:18:23 EDT From: Jerry Ellis Subject: Coax/shielded cable Looking back over my collection of TIGHAR earhartforum posts I noticed the "Bob" (Possible breakthrough" post) reported that an old friend identified the cable as magneto cables. My guy Skeezix says they are radio cables! Skeezix is known to be uninterested in radios but is supposed to be a world class expert on magnetos. He also claimed the the Scintilla mags were the only ones used on radial engines. So we have an "expert" on both sides of the cable! Meanwhile I have located another local "expert" whose main interest is radios and I'm trying to set up a time to see what he can tell me and more importantly, if he has old manuals with with to document what he claims or whatever. --working when I can-- jerry -- Jerry W. Ellis Carbohydrates, polymers and Professor of Chemistry Chemical Education Department of Chemistry Eastern Illinois University *************************************************************** From Ric There seems to be nothing more common than conflicting expert opinion. That's why it's so important thant we find a manual or, even better, a physical example. ======================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:24:53 EDT From: Dick Pingrey Subject: The Noonan Project Having been born in 1932 I can recall doing a lot of traveling with my parents during the late 1930s and early 1940s. Most highways at that time would support speeds of 50 to 60 mph. I would suspect 55 mph might be a good average for highway speed in 1937 but there were few town that were bypassed so the average must come down to 50 mph in my estimation. Sixty mph is a mile per minute, add about 20% for a speed of 50 mph and you should be close. As a retired Pan Am pilot I belong to several organizations of retired Pan Am employees. I could probably post a request to see if any living and retired Pan Am people have any first hand information on Fred Noonan. What specifics are we looking for and is this worth trying? There are other, much earlier Pan Am people such as Bill Moss who may have better ideas. I didn't join Pan Am until 1967. Dick Pingrey *************************************************************** From Ric Accepting your speed/time estimates, my very rough guess is that Yuma to Oakland in 1937 was something like a 15 hour drive. Tempting to try in one day, but a hard grind. We've never talked to anyone who flew or worked with Fred Noonan, so it's probably worth trying to see if such a person is around. We did interview Francis "Fuzz" Furman back in 1989, I think it was. He was the Martin Co. field rep. in Bandoeng, Java. The Royal Netherlands East Indies Air Force had a bunch of B-10s and Fuzz was babysitting them. AE and Fred stayed in Bandoeng for several days in late June and some amintenance was done on the Electra. Fuzz helped out with that. He spent quite a bit of time with Fred, including after hours around town. He is adamant that Fred never took a drink, even when they visited bars and he himself would have a drink. He says that Fred always carried his chronometer in his pocket and was very concerned to check its accuracy at every opportunity. Ric ======================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:49:45 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Satellite Imagery I'll check with the Imagery Division of the No Land Club. Last I heard we still had resolution problems. I'll see if they researched this particular site. The O3u-3 division continues to analyze airspeed. I wandered over to the Newport News Mariners Museum to find maps; instead found a catalog source on the Norwich City reporting 7 lives lost, not 11. By the way, we are now the No Land Club*. The * reluctantly admits the Electra could have been missed by Lambrecht. .001% chance. With warmest regards......... *************************************************************** From Ric So noted. Our sources for the Norwich City casualties are contemporaneous Times (London) articles and, more significantly, the proceedings of the court of inquiry in Samoa which followed the disaster. The men lost were: J.W. Horne, third engineer, of Sandringham St., Hull T.E. Scott, fourth engineer, of Hurworth St., West Hartlepool J.I. Jones, steward, of Cogan, Cardiff F. Sumner, seaman, of Clarence Ave., Hull J. Leslie, carpenter, of Hull (don't have a street for him) plus 6 "Arab firemen" who were not individually named (they were foreign, you know). The bodies of Mr. Jones, Mr. Leslie and one of the "Arabs" washed ashore and were buried on the island by the survivors. ======================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:52:32 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Kanton Are you thinking air or sea for Kanton? Mike *************************************************************** From Ric Depends. The transport of digging equipment would have to be by sea unless we get military (read C-130) help. ======================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:59:18 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Smithsonian Expedition Any details on the Smithsonian visit to Niku? Mike ************************************************************** From Ric Yeah. We have a detailed report on the kinds of flora and fauna they encountered. The bird guy who was there - Roger Clapp - now works for Fish & Wildlife and has an office in the National Museum Natural History on the Mall. We have copies of the photos he took while he was there. ======================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:14:57 EDT From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Plexiglas Have the Kanton/Sydney aircraft sources been eliminated as potential sources for the plexiglas? Mike ************************************************************** From Ric We're quite sure that the Sydney wreck was B-24D and that type has been eliminated as a source for the plexi fragment found on Niku. We have not checked the many other types that have frequented Kanton over the years. (That would be quite a job.) We have no indication that aircraft debris of any kind ever migrated from Kanton to Niku (except for a couple of aluminum scraps brought to the Loran station for a misguided watchband-making project). Conversely, we have found at least three pieces of airplane debris in the abandoned village which we know came from a B-24D. ======================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:31:20 EDT From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Lambrecht Interview TIGHAR member Jim Sivright lives not far from the Nimitz Museum in Fredricksburg, TX and will be trying to locate the interview Fred Goerner did with John Lambrecht. Any TIGHAR member wishing to help Jim should coordinate with him directly via email at: Sivright@ultravision.net The following is the museum's reply to Jim's initial inquiry about the Goerner papers. *************************************************************** From: "Admiral Nimitz Museum" Subject: Re: Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan Date: Fri,