Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:56:50 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Research Needs I admit to a bias towards the new SAR imagery capabilities. Foliage would decrease the effectiveness but not totally negate its usefulness. I have to back off a bit. When you've been working with a hammer the whole world looks like a nail. I agree that given only one choice, multi-spectral imagery would also be my choice. I forgot that the search area would have to encompass more then the beach. I mentioned SAR because there's been an increased willingness to allow those platforms to be used for archeological research. But it's fruitless to discuss the merits of one system over the other because they both suffer from the same problem. Range resolution. I don't foresee any publicly available space based imaging system giving the necessary resolution to identify the size target we're talking about. So in either case were talking about an aircraft. Other areas of the world have the advantage of having platforms all ready flying routine missions. Asking for a few extra photos isn't that difficult (Yea I know --- easy for you to say). Short of the Gilbert Islands declaring war on Hawaii I think we're out of luck for military aircraft. A long shot is if NASA was flying a U-2 to conduct atmospheric studies in the South Pacific. But I wouldn't hold my breath on that coincidence either. Unfortunately it looks like the most likely scenario is a private charter aircraft-carrying camera. Back to my suggestion of a few week back. 35 mm camera with IR film and hope we get lucky. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric So, if I've got this right, we don't need to worry about tracking down existing satellite imagery because it's not going to give us the resolution we need anyway. There is technology out there which, if deployed from an aircraft, might very well provide the information we're looking for but we're up against the same old problem of our island being in such a remote location that we're practically the only people who ever go there. That means either: 1. Chartering a specialized aircraft to fly a dedicated mission, or 2. Talking a government agency or private sector vendor into flying a freebie for us. The cost of pursuing option number 1 probably exceeds the cost of mounting a conventional surface expedition to go look in the bushes. Pursuing option number 2 is almost as expensive because of the time involved in trying to sell our mission to possible sources of help. I don't mean to be negative, but I spent nearly a year trying to get some kind of military C-130 mission to Kanton approved. Despite many hundreds of hours of work, written proposals, endless correspondence, encouraging initial reactions, meetings, help from our senator, etc., the trail always ended in a bureaucratic brick wall. As you know, we ended up paying cash money to charter an airplane to do what we coud afford to do. The experience has left me a bit hesitant to once more begin making cold calls. I wonder if we might be better off concentrating our efforts on putting together the next search expedition to Nikumaroro. If we suspected that Amelia had landed on the dark side of the moon we'd have no choice but to seek out hi-tech ways of searching for her. But Niku isn't quite that inaccessible. Am I missing something here? Ric ================================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:39:36 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: questions QUESTIONS From Mike Ruiz ANSWERS from Ric: QUESTION: Is there a section on the island long enough to take off from? ANSWER: Yes. Just east of Bauareke Passage (the southern lagoon passage) in the Aukaraime South district, there is a 1,200 foot long area of flat, hard coral rubble that is periodically overwashed in storms and, in 1937, was free of vegetation. It is oriented directly into the prevailing wind. About a quarter mile east is the site where the bones, etc. were found. QUESTION: Status of bones search in Sydney? ANSWER: So far we know that the Anthropology Dept. has no collection. We'll be checking Prof. Elkin's papers to see if ever looked at the bones. There's also a chance that they went to England. We're looking into that possibility also.. QUESTION: Timing of next expedition? ANSWER: We had to forego our deposit payment on the ship in order to pay for the Kanton Mission so we lost our time slot for this fall. We only had the ship for 21 days anyway and, with 5 days enroute each way, it really didn't give us enough time on site. We'd want about a month at the island. Whether we do the expedition later this year with a different ship or have to wait until next year will depend entirely upon the availability of a ship and adequate funding. It's always a struggle. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:00:06 EST From: R. Batista Subject: Research needs It seems to me that there is much discussion on pursuing a complex, costly hi-tech solution. Why not spend money more effectively pursuing a remote controlled or tethered aerial photography balloon with a large format camera that can shoot different spectrums of film. You can then easily process the film on site, scan the image into Photoshop and enhance the image for analysis. All while your are there on your planned "sail-in". This way you can shoot and re-shoot with out having to spend 10's of thousands of dollars on corporate jet in order to make a couple more fly-bys. These balloons are less costly than an ultralight, more flexible, and of course safer (no-fly, no-die). *************************************************************** From Ric We've considered using a tethered balloon for photography but have rejected the idea due to the wind conditons and the difficulty in aiming the camera so as to get the shots we would want. We've also tried kites and found that to be even more impractical. If we're already there on the ground our need for aerial photography is minimal. The whole idea is to get information without having to actually sail out there. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:27:00 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Welcome to the Earhart Forum Welcome to TIGHAR's Amelia Earhart Search Forum (EARHARTFORUM). Even if you have already received a welcome message, you may want to read through this because we've set some new guidelines for postings to the forum. You recently received a notice from the company that services this email list entitled "You have been added to the EARHARTFORUM list." It attempts to tell you how to send postings to the list, take yourself off the list, change the way you receive the postings, etc., but it was apparently written by a Computer Science major who should have taken a few more Liberal Arts courses (like maybe English Comp. 101). In the interest of preserving your sanity, here's a simplified and, I hope, more comprehensible guide to using this forum. How the EARHARTFORUM works. Any subscriber to the list can post a message which is then sent to all other subscribers. You can address your post to a particular recipient, but everybody gets to see what everybody else says. How to receive the postings as a digest. Postings will come to you as regular email messages almost immediately after they're posted to the forum. Most people, however, prefer to receive the day's postings to the forum in one lump message (called a digest). To receive the postings as a digest just send an email to: listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com In the text of your message say: SET EARHARTFORUM DIGEST How to send a message to the forum. To send a message for posting on the forum just send whatever you want to say in an email to this address: Earhartforum@home.ease.lsoft.com This is a moderated forum. All postings come to me first so that I have an opportunity to head-off advertising and inappropriate material. On rare occasions when I reject a posting I'll email the person who submitted the rejected message and tell him or her why I have not posted their message. Our purpose here is to promote an intelligent and productive discussion of the Earhart disappearance. Specifically, we want to further our investigation of TIGHAR's hypothesis that Earhart and Noonan, and probably the airplane, ended up on Gardner Island (now known as Nikumaroro) in the Phoenix Group. We will not discuss conspiracy theories on this forum, nor will we debate whether the airplane crashed at sea near Howland. We feel that we have already established a strong probability that the flight arrived in the vicinity of Howland Island pretty much on schedule and, as of the last officially received radio transmission, had adequate remaining fuel to reach Gardner Island. The question is, did it? Likewise, we will not discuss Earhart's personality, previous record-setting flights, love life, place in history, etc. unless it directly pertains to the discovery, verification, or disqualification of evidence relating to her disappearance. Prior to posting messages to the forum, subscribers are urged to familiarize themselves with the evidence described on the TIGHAR website at www.tighar.org We recognize that this forum is not for every Earhart enthusiast. Some may find us unsuitably irreverent or excessively scientific in our approach. But if you're interested in hard answers instead of idle speculation, we think you'll enjoy what happens here. To take yourself off the forum. Send an email to: listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com In the text of your message say: DELETE EARHARTFORUM youremailaddress That's all there is to it. If you find that you're having problems with the forum, or just want to contact me privately, email me, Richard (Ric) Gillespie, at TIGHAR1@AOL.com Thanks, and welcome aboard. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:43:59 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Research needs Ric wrote: >Am I missing something here? Nope. You're right. We got off on a hi-tech discussion when the basic problem is just getting there. The satellite-based products are a real long shot for producing sufficient quality to assist. I'll try to keep my suggestions focused on putting a set of Mark 1 eyeballs and a shovel on scene. Warren *************************************************************** From Darren Rose I'm new to the AE Search Forum and have just recieved my enrollment package. I will be sending my membership dues this week. It's obvious that TIGHAR has a group of motivated and intelligent people who participate in this forum. You mentioned that you are very busy with other responsibilities; and to feel free to conduct independent research. Why not organize forum members into research teams to assist you in doing some leg work for you. Soon to be TIGHAR member, Darren Rose *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Darren. This is probably a good place to outline how TIGHAR's Earhart research network works. There is a group of TIGHAR members made up of expedition team members and experts in a variety of disciplines who are deeply involved in Earhart research. Most, if not all, of them are also subscribers to this forum and several are frequent posters. Those of you who have been on the forum for a while will recognize the names Randy Jacobson and Kenton Spading (for example). The members of the research group communicate with each other and with me via direct email to coordinate their various lines of investigation. The administrative nitty-gritty of their work does not belong on the forum. However, when there is news we put the word out via the website and the forum and also to the non-cyber TIGHARs via snailmail. The function of the forum in the research process is still evolving. It's clear that the forum's wide distribution is an excellent means of broadcasting our needs and obtaining valuable suggestions about new sources of information as well as intelligent comment and opinion. It is our practice not to assign specific research projects to non-members, but with more and more forum subscribers joining the organization that's becoming less and less an issue. It has been astounding how, over the past couple of years, the Internet and email have revolutionized not only our research procedures but also the logistics of mounting expeditions. Now if we could also figure out how to revolutionize our fund-raising....... Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:03:07 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Fly now or Niku 4? Ric wrote: (and asked for opinions) >I wonder if we might be better off concentrating our efforts on putting >together the next search expedition to Nikumaroro. If we suspected that >Amelia had landed on the dark side of the moon we'd have no choice but to seek >out hi-tech ways of searching for her. But Niku isn't quite that inaccessible. Getting the government to fly to Niku for free OR for money is very remote. I work for the Department of Defense (DOD), U.S. Army. Except in very rare cases, you do not use government equipment unless you have a direct connection of some kind to DOD, no matter how noble the mission may be. Typically you will get a warm response from lower level people who have never played the games in Washington. That all changes once the request hits the Capitol City. Hats off to Ric for trying to pull this off!! Will a private firm fly to Niku for Free? Not likely either. I would concentrate on putting together Niku 4 (and maybe Kanton 2?). But, the idea behind using remote sensing imagery on Niku is good (i.e. is the airplane in the bush??) I believe the question of whether or not a relatively large piece of the airplane rests on the island needs to be answered as part of future Niku missions. A team (2 people?) could be sent out to attempt to answer that question. Yes, it is big island. After you eliminate the previously populated surveyed searched areas, the rest is doable. There is, of course more to it than just walking around, but that is another story. Forget flying the island for now, use manpower later to accomplish the intended goal. Kenton Spading ================================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:26:55 EST From: Jerry Ellis Subject: membership Finally--payday! Dues are in the mail. Great effort. About all I can give now is $ and moral support. Great forum. It takes lots of time to deal with e-mail, please protect what you've got of it. Good luck. Jerry W. Ellis Professor of Chemistry Department of Chemistry Eastern Illinois University ************************************************************ From Ric Thanks Jerry. You know the old saying. When you have $ and moral support, you have almost everything. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:17:56 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Research needs >I did some preliminary checking on the USGS website >(http:edcwww.cr.usgs.govdclassdclass.html) and could get no hits. > I suspect that coverage of good old Niku is real scarce. Ric, Is it not possible that there might be more recent *photographic*, etc, imagery of the Pacific waters, with all the El Nino hub-bub?! Or is Niku too far west of that? Just a thought, aye.... -Sandy ************************************************************** From Ric Seems possible but we've pretty much concluded that satellite imagery won't give us the resolution we need. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:41:24 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Satellite imagery Still pursuing satellite info, Preliminary inputs from individuals who are supposed to be knowledgeable in this area tell me there is at least one satellite recently launched with a 1 mm resolution that should be able to detect aluminum thru dense foliage and under 18-25 feet of water; there is a launch this month of one that supposedly will find anything anywhere, point and shoot capability in both cases. SOme feel numerous existing older satellites can do the job, hard to tell, have to sort alot of stuff out from alot of sources and must ask alot more questions, bottom line, alot of capability floating around up there. Mike *************************************************************** From Ric That's at least more encouraging than what we've heard up to now. Glad you're pursuing this. It would be nice if NASA decided that a hard look at Niku would be a good test for the new technology. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:46:13 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Noonan's map Did you ever come across a copy of Noonan's map, was it a late 1800's shipping chart? *************************************************************** From Ric Obviously, whatever chart(s) Fred used on the Lae/Howland leg are not exactly accessible. The charts he used on the South Atlantic crossing earlier in the trip are in the special Collection at Purdue. They are good, current issue (for the time) charts. Randy Jacobson has done a ot of work with these charts which contain Noonan's original navigational notations. He may be able to comment further on this subject. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:49:35 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Satellite imagery As mentioned earlier, am finding satellite options numerous and complex. Trying to get alot sorted out, possibilities may exist in this area. I am also told former (and probably current) Russian spy satellites with "astounding capabilities" are now available for commercial purposes (again point and shoot), at "very reasonable prices", another lead that needs to be checked......... *************************************************************** From Ric Lordy. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:11:36 EST From: Jerry Hamilton Subject: Forum Fairness I am a new Forum member and have been following the fairness question discussion with interest. I have not joined TIGHAR, although I'm leaning that way. I have had a 20 year interest in Earhart and would like to follow developments, and be helpful if I can. I applaud the openness with which it is currently being run, partly from a selfish standpoint, but mostly because it multiplies brainpower and leg-power resources. However, my cynical side says that in a society which values showtime over substance there are lots of unscrupulous people looking to make a buck or get their 15 minutes of fame the easy way. Someone could join the Forum, or TIGHAR, and use the shared information to get their own funding/support for solving one of the great mysteries of the Twentieth Century. In that case, TIGHAR would most likely be left high and dry and the investigation butchered in the name of "selling the story". Two possibilities occur to me. Key, critical detail (like the specific location of the Canton engine) may need to be excluded from even Forum discussions to protect the integrity of TIGHAR investigations. Or can Forum and TIGHAR members sign an agreement that prohibits them from directly, or indirectly, aiding other efforts with TIGHAR findings and information? Something I'd certainly be willing to agree to. Just some thoughts from a new member. Blue skies, -jerry *************************************************************** From Ric If we were looking for a treasure buried in a State Park, I'd worry about disclosing specific location information. But the fact of the matter is that for anyone to do anything in the places we're talking about requires the expenditure of tens of thousands of dollars just to get there. For all the hoopla over Earhart in the 60 (now almost 61) years since she disappeared, TIGHAR is the ONLY entity (individual or organization), other than the U.S. Navy in 1937, that has mounted and carried out on-site investigations anywhere in the Pacific that involved more than buying airline tickets and maybe hiring a local boat. We won't ask forum members to sign any confidentiality agreements. If there is information that needs to be protected we have a good way of doing that. We just don't tell anybody. Thanks for your input Jerry. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:12:29 EST From: Susan Subject: Satellite Imagery I've talked to some friends in the Willy Ley Society. They suggest that you contact a senator or two and request the necessary information. It is supposed to be publically available, and FREE! Perhaps if we all wrote to our senators. . . If you will give me the exact coordinates and a laundry list of what you need, I will try to go through some Science Fiction fans who work at NASA. Meanwhile you might pursue the Congressional route. I hope this will help forward things. Susie ************************************************************** From Ric The coordinates for Nikumaroro are 4 degrees 40 minutes South Latitude, 174 degrees 32 minutes West Longitude. We need imagery that will enable us to identify the location, but not necessarily the exact nature, of metal debris obscured by dense vegetaton or under up to 7 meters of water to a resolution of at least 5 meters. Howzat? Let's hold off on a letter-writing campaign until we get some more input on what may actually be available. Ric *************************************************************** From Clyde Miller The folks at USGS have done a search on the available multispectrum photos (apparently some 22 different ones from 1990 and 1991) and returned the interpretations to me via fax. The details are for W174 32 and S4 41. Unfortunately the interpretation of the data is currently beyond me. It will take a week or so for me to even understand what I have. I would be willing to fax the information to anyone who could interpret and sift through to discern if any of these images would be worth purchasing. These are SPOT images. with detail about cloud coverage, I angle, shift range and corner points. They were taken by SPOT1 and SPOT2 satellites. All of the photos are cloud free according to the details. Sorry I've reached my peter principal for today on interpretation. Thanks Clyde Miller ************************************************************** From Ric Hey, way to go Clyde! 22 images is a good start. Anybody out there have the expertise to help Clyde figure out what he has? *************************************************************** From Pat Johannes Ric wrote: >It would be nice if NASA decided that a hard look at Niku >would be a good test for the new technology. Badly needed publicity for them, too, if it works Pat Johannes **************************************************************** From Randy Jacobson Well, if there is such a satellite with 1 millimeter resolution, it would not be available to the public! Even the very classified satellites do not have that kind of resolution! Sorry, Mike, but someone is pulling your chain, or you have your units mixed up! *************************************************************** From Mike Ruiz We have contacted the Russians. They will let us know if: a.) they are willing to use their technology that will see the potential debris field; if yes, then b.) Can they get Niku, if yes; c.) How much do they want; and d.) how quickly they can do it. We may need some Absolut (Red Label). Mike *************************************************************** From Ric This is getting Absolutly wild. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:15:43 EST From: Randy Jacobson Subject: Noonan's Maps The maps Noonan used for the South Atlantic crossing consisted of two sections: east and west. I never made copies of the western half (there were no annotations regarding the flight on it), but the eastern one was the standard map available from the US gov't Printing Office, Hydrographic Office Map # 956a at a scale of 5 degrees per 4 inches. It was bought from a commerical map firm, as were most of the charts used by Noonan that reside in the Purdue Archives. For over-land flights, they often used topographic charts, with prominent landmarks as navigational waypoints or beacons to double-check their navigation. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:15:12 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Satellite imagery To Randy: 1 meter resolution (.8 actually), not 1 millimeter....... To Clyde: We can probably read them, fax is 757-864-7890, SPOT information is among the many recommendations we are receiving these days........... Mike ************************************************************* From Kenton Spading, TIGHAR No. 1382CE I have information on commercial satellites for hire. All you need is a credit card. I will check on this and report back. Kenton Spading *************************************************************** From Chuck Jackson i dont believe 1 mm resolution via satellite!!!! sombody's smoking somethin. look into SPOT---the french COMMERCIAL imaging satellite. no need to battle govt bureaus----just have the bucks ready. better resolution than many military sats!!!!! a contact i made a yr or so ago at stanford u earth sci dept says they occnly purchase spot stuff at a couple grand a hit----should cost little to find out what they already have and get a bid on coverage you want.....probably more cost effective than many TIGHAR activities. could be too---that some univ has already got the coverage u/we/usns want and u could view it FREE!!!!!!!!???????? ask and ye...................LOVE TO MOM i'll try to find that stanford contact ************************************************************** From Clyde Miller If wishes were pennies. Check out the plane we need at: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9803/03/global.hawk Clyde Miller *************************************************************** From Ric That has to be the UGLIEST aeroplane on the block, and besides, there are no license plates to read on Niku. (Sour Grapes Dept.) ================================================================ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:58:47 EST From: Barbara Wiley Subject: Noonan's Map Mike: I was at Trader Vic's Restaurant in 1988, hosted for lunch by Fred Goerner and his friend, Ken Ackerman(one of the first anchor men on TV back in the 50's. Fred showed me Noonan's map, it had been given to him during his daze of research on A.E. It was authentic. I suggest that it is with his other archives that he willed to a Texas? museum. His wife, (former Zellerbach) in San Francisco would have the location of museum fyi. Barbara *************************************************************** From Ric Betcha it was the Nimitz Museum given Fred's relationship with the admiral. Easy enough to check on that. I'm curious Barbara. What was it a map OF? And how do you know that it was authentic? Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:38:29 EST From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Satellite Imagery They just announced the first female shuttle pilot-in-command. (see CNN article http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9803/03/nasa.woman/index.html) NASA needs good publicity and this might be a really positive & sentimental opportunity. I work for NASA, but on a different side of the house, so unfortunately I don't have any contacts to suggest. NASA Headquarters' information operator is 202-358-0000. Amanda Dunham *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Amanda. **************************************************************** From Warren Schilling I checked out the SPOT commercial web site a few days back. The best resolution offered was 10 meters. There is a lot more competition between satellite imagery companies now. I haven't had time to check them all out. While it's possible that someone may be offering a platform with better resolution, I doubt that any are offering the quality that would be sufficiently useful to justify the expense. Even if we could get an amazing 1-meter resolution, the object couldn't be clearly identified as an aircraft engine. At best they would offer a fuzzy "something" for some one to check out on the ground. Back to the original problem. Even if satellite imagery gave you several candidate sites you'd have to actually visit the location to make a positive identification. An aircraft could get much better resolution. But if you had an aircraft over the island then why not land and check it out with Mark 1 high resolution eyeballs? I do agree however that overhead imagery could help to point the ground team to candidate sites. Eliminating unlikely areas would make their time on the island more productive. My "in the best of all worlds" suggestion would be: 1. Get the best available free satellite imagery of the island to reduce the search area. 2. The aircraft bringing the team in would fly low over candidate sites and take photos using at a minimum IR imagery. Develop the film on the spot (no pun intended). A small 35-mm film development kit isn't a major technical obstacle. 3. The ground team would review the images taken from the aircraft and proceed to investigate those sites that hold the greatest promise. 4. The team would have all the equipment necessary for the necessary exploration and excavation of candidate sites. Easy. All we need is around 150,000 dollars. Suggestion on how we pay for the trip would be of great interest. Warren PS: My dues are in the mail. $149,990 to go and counting. **************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Warren. 1. There is no where to land an airplane on Niku (and expect to take off again). 2. Our principle desire for aerial imagery is not so much to do a general search but to confirm or deny a couple of specific locations indicated by former residents and which appear to be at least somewhat corroborated by existing aerial photos. 3. For about $200,000 we can mount the NIKU IIII Expedition and go there and look for ourselves. Ric **************************************************************** From Mike Ruiz I have a suggestion to Forum members interested in the Satellite Hunt. Each day I (like Clyde, Kenton and other TIGHAR and forum members) am finding companies and countries that provide satellite imagery. If participants are interested, I will volunteer to develop a matrix spreadsheet to include information we need to make a reasoned, well informed decision on any option that involves spending money. I am finding the options complex. Clyde is also. He did a great job getting the Spot info, and that's going to take some analysis just to figure out if its worth buying. If Ric and others agree, e-mail me information at linvil@msn.com. I will build a spreadsheet that contains the essentials, and we (those that have submitted inputs) can review the sheet and rank each option based on our collective brainpower. And by the way, if there is a forum member out there who is a super hi-tech satellite expert (which I am not), maybe you will volunteer to do the matrix? If not, I'm happy to pitch in and do the best I can. Once we agree on final rankings, we can submit our findings to Ric for his consideration. Thoughts, comments? **************************************************************** From Ric Sounds great to me. **************************************************************** From Bob Brown I couldn't resist jumping in here. I have worked with people using satellite data for the last seven or eight years and SPOT is by no means better than the military stuff. It is very low resolution compared to military data. The new category of civillian satellites called Smallsats are much higher resolution, (size of pixels), than the Spot data. Also, the hyperspectral stuff on some of the newer satellites offers many more spectral bands for extracting information from the images. My company has used SPOT data for several years buying about $200,000 worth annualy. It is an excellent general survey tool but would probably be of no use for what you are trying to do. Please don't take this message wrong. I am not trying to flame anyone, just sharing what I know. Hope it helps put things in perspective. I have been a professional geographer involved in mapping and geographical information systems for thirty years. Bob **************************************************************** From Ric Sounds like you may have the experience and expertise in working with this stuff that Mike is looking for. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:24:53 EST From: Kenton Spading Subject: Satellite Imagery Mike, Great idea on the satellite matrix. I will send you my info when I get it. (commercial satellites) Kenton Spading ************************************************************* From aa2309@wayne.edu Some people do this for a living... I would like to refer the members of TIGHAR to http://eleftheria.stcloudstate/arsc This site will give you a good overview of what is available on-line or commercially, and also some idea how to use it, with links. This might be worthwhile for historic aircraft searches other than AE as well. I suspect that someone has a program to search for wreck debris fields, but it might be classifed. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:53:18 EST From: Ann Subject: Niku Just one quick question. What is the area size of Niku? I ask this question in reference to the mention of ground surveys in place of aerial surveys (is this the term I mean?). Received my Tighar membership card and window sticker today. Ann **************************************************************** From Ric We've never actually calculated how many square acres or hectares or cubic furlongs the island contains. As you can see from the map, it's a ribbon of land which varies from roughly an eighth to a quarter mile in width surrounding a lagoon that is nearly four miles long. If you stretched it out in a straight line you'd have a strip of land of varying width about ten miles long. Most of it is covered with dense vegetation. In short, it's a very hard place to search. In four trips we've covered much, but by no means all, of it. One of the areas of shoreline that has received almost no attention is the very area where former residents describe seeing airplane wreckage. We didn't hear those stories until we were on our way home from Niku last year. Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:11:05 EST From: Craig Fuller Subject: Satellite Imagery I tried: http://eleftheria.stcloudstate/arsc and could not find the server. Is this the correct address or was the server down when I tried? Craig Fuller Aviation Archaeological Investigation & Research AAIR www.sonic.net/azfuller ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:36:05 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: 1937 aircraft radios A minor point of curiosity... I've been reading some of the books on Amelia Earhart trying to decide what makes sense. Relative to all the confusion that seemed to exist regarding radio frequencies: Does anyone know that aircraft radio equipment was like in 1937? Indications are that transmitters were Xtal controlled. That sure makes sense. One probably switched from one frequency to another. What about receivers? I suspect they were continuous tuning with several bands. Probably not unlike the domestic "all wave" radios of the time. Would tuning dials have been marked in both frequency and wavelength? I recall dials of home receivers that were marked both ways and, as is the case today, the least significant digit was dropped. The dial reads "610" instead of 6100 kilocycles. All of which would make it pretty easy to get confused between frequency and wavelength markings. *************************************************************** From Ric Earhart's transmitter was a Western Electric 13C with three crystal controlled frequencies, 3105, 6210 and 500 kilocycles. The first two were standard aviation frequencies. The third was the international nautical distress frequency. Her receiver, as far as we know, was a Western Electric 20B with four bands - 200 to 400 Kc.; 550-1500 Kc; 1500-4000 Kc; and 4000-10,000 Kc. To tune it to a particular station you had to select the proper band then crank a little handle until you reached the correct frequency. She may have also had a separate Bendix RDF receiver, or the Bendix unit may have replaced the Western Electric unit prior to the second world flight attempt. There has been great debate on this issue. Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:38:49 EST From: John Clauss Subject: Satellite Imagery Bob, If you were looking for aerial survey or satellite photos of the Phoenix islands (Kiribati) where would you go? John Clauss ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:59:36 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Gotta share this We frequently get requests from kids doing reports on Amelia for school and, of course, we help out all we can. We also get back some rather creative ideas about how to further our investigation. I couldn't resist sharing this one with everybody. "Have you ever done a backround check on Noonan? Why does every one think Amelia was the spy? Maybe Noonan was and he killed her or gave her up to the enemy.... makes you wonder huh????" Yeah. Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:21:44 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Campfire I was reading the "Help Wanted" notice concerning the burned label found in the campfire. I was wondering whether it would be possible to "date" the label or the campfire remains, themselves, through some sort of carbon dating process of the charred remains of the label or ashes from the campfire (perhaps it's possible, but not within the accuracy needed). Also, concerning all the satellite imaging e-mails, have you considered sending onto the island a small group of volunteers to "camp out" there for a period of time of up to a month? If they could land with sufficient provisions, a small group over a greater time may be able to accomplish more than a larger group over less time, and at less cost. It seems to me that all the aerial reconaissance is no substitute for a ground search. Thanks for your time! **************************************************************** From Ric Carbon dating of the charcoal in the fire might give us a rough idea of when the wood that was burned died, but the label itself has the potential for yielding much more information, if we can just pin down the identification. As for leaving a small team on the island; the principle expense involved in an expedition to Niku is not the being there. It's the getting there. Even a small team needs an ocean-going vessel to get there. Dropping them off, then returning to collect them means two round trips. Believe it or not, it's cheaper (and a whole lot safer and more comfortable) to keep the ship there. Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:26:35 EST From: Andrew McKenna Subject: Satellite imagery In a message dated 3/6/98 12:25:45 AM, you wrote: http://eleftheria.stcloudstate/arsc I tried to go there, but got an error message indicating that it did not exist. Can you verify the web address? Thanks Andrew McKenna ************************************************************** From Ric: This is the second report we've had that there is a problem with this address. Haven't tried it myself. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:31:27 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Earhart's Sister Dead Regular forum contributor Chuck Jackson, TIGHAR 2089, reports that Amelia's younger sister, Muriel Earhart Morrissey, died March 5, 1998 at the age of 98. Muriel had not been well for several years and had long since contributed all the memories and letters she had that might be of interest to those who were interested in her famous sister. In 1983 she donated a large collection letters to the Radcliffe College Schlesinger Library. Muriel believed that Amelia had probably gone down at sea. We always sent her a copy of the latest TIGHAR Tracks through the neighbor who looked out for her, but we never bothered her with questions. With Muriel's passing, Amelia seems to slip further into the past. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:31:54 EST From: "MEM" Subject: satellite imagery http://eleftheria.stcloudstate/arsc it needs a ".edu" : http://eleftheria.stcloudstate.edu/arsc ************************************************************** Ric, the proper web address for the satellite imagery is: http://eleftheria.stcloud.msus.edu/arsc I tried this and got in ok.With the other slightly different address, I too ran up against a brick wall. Ann ************************************************************** From aa2309@wayne.edu They just changed their server and major address, and what you have is also incomplete http://www.eleftheria.stcloustate.edu/arsc Keep trying. It is a really worthwhile site, and can answere your "where do I get photos of..." questions. It includes some aircraft, as well as satellite photos. ************************************************************** From Ric Now, if we could just solve the Earhart Mystery as fast as we solved the URL Mystery we'd be in good shape. ************************************************************** From Bob Brown I have sent a request to some of my contacts who specialize in satellite imagery for suggestions as to sources in this area. Because of the remoteness of the area it is more than likely that satellite imagery might be the only thing available currently. I might suggest however, that there might be value in the "oldest" imagery that you can find. If there were aerial reconaiscance flights during the war perhaps they would show evidence that has since be wiped away by storms etc. I will research this and get back with you. Bob ************************************************************* From Ric We have quite a bit (all we could find) of wartime and later aerial photography of the island and it has been very useful. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:46:25 EST From: Kenny Feder Subject: Carbon Dating Regarding using carbon dating to help place the island campfire in time: Carbon dating is a terrific dating technique but it has its limits. The process works because the unstable isotope of carbon, 14C decays at a set rate, expressed in terms of its half-life (for 14C this is 5730 years). After seven or eight half-lives (40,000 years or so) there isn't enough 14C left for accurate dating so material much older than this can't be dated (other than to say, greater than 40,000 years). At the other end, for very recent sites (say a campfire about 60 years old) not enough of the 14C will have decayed (it's too small a fraction of even one half-life of radiocarbon) to get any kind of an accurate measurement. Most radiocarbon dating labs simply will report such a sample as "recent." Not much help there. Ken Feder TIGHAR # 2103 (brand new!) *************************************************************** From Tom King, Earhart Project Archaeologist, TIGHAR 0391CE One more thing about carbon dating the fire or the label -- radiocarbon age determination isn't much good with things as recent as 60 years old; there's too much margin for error. And in our case, a fire that's 60 years old could be Earhart's and a fire that's 55 years old could be the colonists'. Of course, if the fire were 500 years old, that would pretty much put it out of Amelia's league, but the label strongly suggests that we're not dealing with anything that old. We haven't felt like radiocarbon age determination would be a useful way to spend money, or to use the limited amount of charcoal that came out of the feature, which can also be used for things like determining the kind of tree that was burned. This can have important implications itself; it looks like the wood was more likely buka (Pisonia grandis) than coconut, and hence probably was burned prior to 1941 when the buka forest was cleared and the coconuts planted. Tom King ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:08:51 EST From: Chuck Jackson Subject: 1937 radios before xtal controlled receivers , tuning was a pain---the dials only approximately indicated frequency---good only to get close to the desired frequency----then one "fishes" for the incoming signal --------the really wise and prudent radio operator marks important freq on the dial by first tuning to known frequencies, or constructs a calibration chart.(a responsible "installer" does this)---but would ae even bother to use it??????? ************************************************************* From Dr. Gene Dangelo This is my first actual venture into the communications of the forum; having noticed the interesting message about Amelia Earhart's radios, and being a radio amateur myself, I was particularly interested in this topic, and decided to "jump in." The use of the crystal controlled transmitter was probably the most sensible of choices at that time, primarily because it took the "guesswork" out of finding the correct frequency and made dangers of frequency "drift" academic, as long as the rest of the radio was functioning properly and the tubes were at operating temperature. 3105 and 6210 Kilocycles (Khz) are now generally regarded as 3.105 and 6.210 Mhz in the shortwave bands. Of particular interest, however, is the 500 Khz emergency frequency, now on the far upper end of the longwave band. One of the radio clubs to which I belong, the Longwave Club of America has lots of information on this band and its history. Nowadays, this band is still used for directional aircraft beacons (in repeating Morse Code), as well as the U.S. Government's "Ground Wave Emergency Network" (GWEN), and much submarine communication, owing to the sea's exceptional propagation of longwave signals. This band was used for submarine transmission/reception to my knowledge as far back as the Earhart disappearance era. Radio receivers of that time period also could have been of two different reception/signal detection types: the superheterodyne type (as are most AM radios today) and the regenerative type, which used a kind of signal feedback of sorts to bring about signal detection. One of my own vintage operational radios in my "shack" is an RCA RAK-6 regenerative longwave receiver built in December, 1941 for the Navy Department. Its power supply was built in 1939, also for the Navy, and it tunes continuously from 10 Khz to 600 Khz. I have received (from Greensburg, Pennsylvania) on it signals from Bimini, Bahamas, the Omega Beacon in the Pacific at 10 Khz (now defunct, I believe,) and several signals ranging from Canada to South America. The reason I bring this up is that I have toyed with the idea that perhaps Amelia Earhart, if her radio DID in fact function for awhile after her possible reef flat landing, attempted to utilize the emergency frequency at 500 Khz. If so, it may have been possible that some submarine reception (or on-land reception) of her signal may have occurred. It may have been garbled, or not clearly understood. I wonder if some radio log from any nearby submarine traffic may have in its pages some spurious signal reception noted within at a time frame critical to Earhart's disappearance? Another radio club to which I belong, the Antique Wireless Association, is a treasure-trove of material about vintage radio equipment, and in fact they operate a museum of such. They can be contacted via internet at: www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa if anyone is so inclined. One last note: it may be considered to look into any available major storm reports over the last sixty years or so for the Nikumaroro area, in order to consider the physics of the direction(s) in which the Electra 10E wreckage may have been driven (storm wind directions & intensities, wave heights, etc.). I'm not sure what information was available at that time period along those lines, but anything may be a potential help, I'm sure. Thanks for tolerating my ramblings. 'Sorry to be longwinded. Most Sincerely, --Dr. Gene Dangelo **************************************************************** From Frank Lombardo, TIGHAR 1806 (Note from Ric: Frank has been working on our research team for years on the subject of Earhart's radios) There was two basic models of the Western Electric type 13 series transmitter manufactured for Western Electric by Bell Laboratories in 1936/1937. From these two models, many variations or modifications were made to these units by the airline industry for their specific requirements One of two basic models may have been installed on NR16020 by Bell Labs prior to the March flight. These would be the Type 13C or the Type 13CB. The 50 watt, three channel Type 13C was a three channel transmitter that DID NOT HAVE 500 kc capability. It's range was from 2000 to 6500 megacycles. The 50 watt, three channel Type 13CB was a factory modified 13C with many internal component changes to modify a one channel only, low frequency transmit capability below the broadcast band (ie; 500 kc). Along with this, an external loading coil must be added along with a trailing wire antenna in order for the transmitter to be properly switched and tuned to all three frequencies, in this case 3105, 6210, and 500 kc. All photographs of NR16020 of the interior of the cabin and navigator's position that we have as of this date, show that a Type 13C was installed, with only 3105 kc and 6210 kc transmit capability. Both the 13C and 13CB were designed for voice modulation only. Both had to be modified for CW by Bell Labs if the operator requested it. Frank ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:06:03 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Satellite Imagery re satellite photos, --yes i''ve seen some of these photos, even used some in my company magazine.WHY NOT GIVE THEM A SHOT? I DOUBT IF YOU'LL SEE AN AIRCRAFT ON THE OCEAN BOTTOM THO!!111111!!but lotsa luck. Dick **************************************************************** From Ric If we can find imagery that may have sufficient resolution we'll certainly give it a shot, if we can afford it. And you're right Dick. If the airplane is on the ocean bottom we won't find it, with or without satellites. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:08:05 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Earhart's Sister Dead SORRY TO HEAR THAT.. SHE WAS A GOOD PERSON ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:07:01 EST From: Chuck Jackson Subject: Ballard? ric---consider sitting down with ballard (sp?) over a couple of beers (adventurer/explorer to adventurer/explorer). he lead the finding of the titanic, and may have some ideas---or even may take it on as a personal challenge. true, a few lbs. less steel involved and a "few"other challenges.---you'd still be the honcho picking the places to probe.........plenty of glory to go around. ************************************************************** From Ric Remember that Titanic, Lusitania, Bismark, etc. were "lost" only in the sense that they sank. "Finding" them is primarily a matter of deploying appropriate technology for long enough in the area where the ship is known to have gone down. Finding the Earhart aircraft is infinitley more difficult, not only because it is microscopic compared to a ship, but because nobody knows for sure where to begin looking. We're not in the least opposed to consulting outside experts and, in fact, are always looking for help and advice from the best people we can find. Dr. Ballard is aware of our project and he and we seem to agree that his involvement would not be appropriate. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:10:53 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: 1937 radios Thanks, Ric, for the very solid information on Amelia's radio equipment! I'm trying to imagine why she would have asked for a long count on 7500 kc. Did she really want 750 meters which would be 400 kc but was confused by numbers on a dial that didn't mean much to her? If the dial of her reciever, Western Electric or Bendix, had both frequency and wavelength markings, it would be a little easier to understand how she might request the wrong frequency. She may have put some marks on the dial, as I've known people to do with equipment they didn't understand, but chose the wrong numbers to request the long count. Is it known what the dials of those recievers looked like? Does any of that 1937 radio equipment still exist? I wonder if one could find any documentation? Having been in radio, off and on, for most of my life, it's an interesting sidelight to the larger question of what became of Earhart and Noonan. ************************************************************** From Ric Perhaps Frank Lombardo has some insight on this. Whadya think Frank? ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:36:26 EST From: Chuck Jackson Subject: PBY?? HAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED A PBY FOR YOUR ADVENTURES EXPLORATIONS?????????? THERE MUST BE A FEW AROUND ALONG WITH SOME OLD & HOPEFULLY NOT TOO BOLD PILOTS WHO'D LOVE TO BE PART OF TIGHAR'S GOIN'ONS. ME THINKS GOD AND U. S. MILITARY CREATED IT JUST 4 U. PERFECT FOR HAULIN, CAMPIN, FOTOGRAFIN, ETC, ETC, ETC. REGARDS ************************************************************* From Ric We've considered the use of amphibious aircraft and keep coming up with some real problems. 1. The two types with sufficient range - the PBY and the Grumman Albatross - have piston engines which, of course, use avgas, which is not readily available at the places where you'd need to refuel. 2. Neither a PBY nor an Albatross is big enough to carry the people and equipment we need to get anything done. 3. Any mechanical problem or minor accident that disabled the aircraft while it was at Nikumaroro would create a major emergency. Let me correct an understandable misconception. I am not an adventurer, nor am I an explorer. We have a saying at TIGHAR. Adventure is what happens when things go wrong. We NEVER go looking for adventure. We do our best to avoid it. I don't think anybody does any real exploring any more, except for NASA and people who go to ocean depths never before visited. If I had to put a label on what we do, I'd say that we are historians. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:53:01 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: The Label Fragment The label fragment... There might be a very slim possibility that it could be dated to some degree by analysis of the ink, or of the paper itself. This kind of thing can be done with only microscopic samples. No damage to the little bit of "evidence" that exists. A very long shot depending upon when changes in inks and printing may have occurred. Another very long shot: I have access to the "Federal Gazette" from 1930 with registered trademarks. It's a monthly publication so that's a lot to be searched, starting with 1937 and going back. That bit of text we see may not be part of a registered trademark at all, or it might have been registered only on a state level. A long shot, indeed! If the fragment is from "canned ripe banana," that seems an unusual product. I wonder what the market would have been? Maybe seafaring folks? ************************************************************** From Ric There are document experts who can almost certainly date the materials, ink, lettering style, etc. We'll be doing that. It just takes time to find the right sources and find the funding. We don't yet know a great deal about canned ripe bananas and what they were used for. I can imagine that they might have been useful in baking and as a good source of potassium in a survival food. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:19:48 EST From: Rebecca Little Subject: Mystery Photo There's something I'm curious about, and research at my college library has turned up zilch. I just got the sample issue of Tighar Tracks (30 September 1997) a couple of weeks ago, and I've been wondering about the article, "Is This Earhart's Electra." I thought that the plane in the photo had already been determined to be a Lockheed 1 and not a 10E, so why has the discussion come up again? The engines in the photos of Earhart's Electra look different than the ones in the mystery photo and so do the propellers. I was also wondering, did Lockheed 10E's have different looking engines even within the same class? Wasn't Earhart's plane modified to some extent? I know she had extra fuel tanks put into her fuselage, but what about her engines? Thanks for your time and I'm really enjoying this discussion! From a future TIGHAR member (yes, another check is in the mail), Rebecca Little *************************************************************** From Ric The photo continues to be matter of heated debate. As for the engines on the Earhart Electra: Electras came with four different kinds of engines. The 10A had Pratt & Whitney Wasp Jr.s (R985 SB) of 450 hp. The 10B had Wright R975s of 450 hp. The 10C had Pratt & Whitney Wasps (R1340 SC1) of 450 hp. The 10D was never built. The 10E had Pratt & Whitney Wasps (R1340 S3H1) of 550 hp. A detailed discussion of the wreck photo will be included in the next TIGHAR Tracks. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:32:24 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Muriel Earhart Morrissey MURIEL EARHART (1900 -1998) Would that you might be reunited with Amelia and know, at last, what happened om that morning of July 2, 1937 -- and perhaps in the days thereafter. I fear that those of us who remain may never know. ********************************************** Indeed, with the passing of her sister Muriel, Amelia seems to recede further in the mists of time and the vastness of the Pacific Ocean. And we are haunted by those last words the world would ever hear from her. Loud... Very close to Howland Island. Then silence. The crackling of static... If Amelia and Fred had found Howland Island and had completed those last few thousand miles to Hawii and on to Burbank, They would be a brief note in the history books. Perhaps Amelia is pleased to see that, because she vanished as she did, there are those who still search for some shred of hard evidence of what became of her! There must be scarely anyone left who knew Amelia. Muriel's children were small. They probably don't really remember Aunt Amelia who set out to fly around the world and never returned! *************************************************************** From Fred Madio I have an obituary clipping from the Boston Globe (a newspaper) that I will send to you by US Mail. It contains some useful info for possible follow up research:references to daughters, grandchilderen, great grandchildren, and something about "four cartons and letters concerning her sister to Radcliffe College's Schlesinger Library." The part about pictures caught my eye for some reason. Willing to follow up from this end if you think it might prove productive. Regards, Fred Madio ************************************************************** From Ric We're very familiar with the letters and I know Muriel's daughter Amy. As a research source, Muriel was wrung dry many years ago. Thanks anyway. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:48:06 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: 1937 radio Re: Analog tuned receivers. Yes, I've wondered if the need to hunt for a signal may have had something to do with the communication problems Amelia had. Being pretty naive about radio in general, she may have placed too much confidence in the dial marking. When she wasn't hearing anything, she may not have hunted around the spot looking for a signal. I've also wondered why, when she changed frequency and lost contact, she didn't go back to where she last had contact. Such as when she was in contact with Lae, New Guinea (according to some sources) until she changed frequency. Lae did not hear her again. Why did she not go back to the other frequency? Lae was hearing her well, but maybe she was not hearing Lae all that well. Re: 500 kilocycles. I wonder if we know whether it's true that Amelia left the trailing-wire antenna back in the states? If so, she wouldn't have got much of a signal out on 500 kilocycles, possibly to have been heard by submarines, or whatever. Of course, after landing, presumably in water on a reef or some such location, it wouldn't have mattered much anyway. An antenna in the water might be alright, but not with the aircraft also in the water -- "grounded" antenna! **************************************************************** From Ric We've found no evidence that Earhart heard anything from anybody during the Lae Howland leg with the exception of the letter As sent by the Itasca on 7500 kc. Her transmitter was apparently working fine. Lae heard her on 6210, as did Nauru, and Itasca heard her loud and clear on 3105 but lost her when she switched to 6210. Lae radio operator Harry Balfour claimed, years later, that he was in two way communication with her for several hours after her departure, but the one contemporaneous written account by Guinea Airways Mgr Eric Chater makes it quite clear that that was not the case. As for the trailing wire, there is a considerable body of folklore that has the trailing wire removed in Miami prior to the June 1st departure, but we see no external evidence of the antenna from the time the airplane comes out of repairs at Burbank on May 19. 1937. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:38:11 EST From: Chris Kennedy Subject: Label Fragment Concerning the label fragment, has any thought been given to getting a forensic expert (e.g., someone who conducts scientific/chemical analysis of crime sites and evidence) involved for leads? --Chris Kennedy **************************************************************** From Ric Yes. Forensic document experts are the guys I referred to in my earlier post. **************************************************************** From Amanda Dunham You're right about canned ripe bananas being a baking ingredient. Another possibility: baby food. Earhart was known to have stomach trouble, recurring in Lae, and doctors used to recommend baby food as a remedy. Especially bananas & applesauce (which might not actually be labelled "baby food"). 20/20 hindsight - if she'd skipped the highly acidic tomato juice during times of stress, maybe she'd have felt better. Amanda Dunham who never thought a history of food allergies would be useful... PS: Payday's tomorrow and my membership check will be in the mail shortly thereafter! *************************************************************** From Ric Amanda, you sound like you know what you're talking about (not that the rest of us don't). I'm curious to know where your knowledge of 1930s food use comes from. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:41:53 EST From: Lee Subject: Earhart's Sister Dead Could anyone help us find other relative's of Amelias? I am Amelia's 3rd Cousin, and are trying to locate other close relatives. Or would anyone have Geneology info? Did Muriel Earhart Morrissey have children? Would really appreciate any help. Thanks Lee **************************************************************** From Ric Muriel had two children. A girl, Amy, and a boy (can't recall the name). If anyone can help Lee, please reply directly to him by private email. This is off topic for the the forum. Ric ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:47:55 EST From: Frank Lombardo Subject: 1937 radio There are plenty of photographs to go around of the Western Electric Type 27A remote control head which was used in conjunction with the Western Electric Type 20B receiver. In fact, there is a photograph in circulation that clearly shows the 27A control head mounted on the right-hand sub-panel in the cockpit of NR16020. To answer the question that the dial may have been marked to "find" a frequency when tuning...... The dial face is covered with a dome shaped glass, which would make marking a specific point for reference not work well. Your eye would have to be always in the precise position it was the last time you marked the dail. Adding to this that the dial face is quite small (approx. 3") and is overcrowded with many bands and numbers. Also the needle width has to be taken in to consideration. The 27A control head tuning knob turned a geared shaft that turned a tachshaft that was connected to the receiver back in the cabin. Not unlike a speedometer cable in an automobile. This splined shaft arrangement added some degree of backlash or slop when tuning. Yes....indeed there would be a degree of difficulty in trying to tune the receiver to a specific frequency, compounding, if you don't hear any traffic while tuning, it is most difficult to find the frequency you are looking for. I hope this somehow answered your question.. LTM #1806 ************************************************************** Hi again, The only low frequency (below the broadcast band) that the Coast Guard vessel Itasca transmitted on to Amelia Earhart was 500 kc. LTM #1806 ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:52:17 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Line of Position I hope I'm not overloading the system! As a new kid on the block, I've got all sorts of questions and thoughts rattling around in my head. Coming on the scene with no knowledge of navigation, I struggled with that "line of position" thing quite a while. I think I finally understand Noonan's sunrise LOP and the advancement thereof. First, he is able to determine a line that is actually the slightly bias line between daylight and dark as of July 2, 1937. The sun is about as far north as it will be at that time of year. For relatively short distances, a straight line is a good approximation. Then he advances that line on the basis of estimated ground speed, but without knowledge of how wind may be influencing their course. Finally they believe themselves on a LOP that passes through Howland Island. I've plotted the LOP on my map and studied the situation they were in. I sure think that if I had been in that situation, not sighting Howland or the smoke from the Itasca and running out of fuel, I would head south. There's clearly a lot less water to cross and more islands to be found in that direction. I don't think Amelia would have stuck with her idea of heading back toward the Gilberts, as some sources have quoted. South looks a lot better on the map. So, I can easily believe that they could have ended up at Gardner Island (Nikumaroro). Best regards, Vern ************************************************************* From Ric That's a pretty good summary of the reasoning the Navy followed in 1937 and the logic that first got us interested in looking at Nikumaroro in 1988. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:48:58 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Historians all >If I had to put a label on what we do, I'd say that we are historians. ....Hear, hear..! Received my membership papers today. Thanks! I feel connected now. And in all seriousness, I think history is the relevent term here. It is also the moral term. This is about the loss of two people's lives. I for one, appreciate the reverence and respect shown by TIGHAR's attitude. This is one reason I want to be a part and make whatever contribution I can... I'm an avid genealogist as well, and a sincere believer that, `to those who seek, all questions are answered.., eventually'. I feel privileged to be part of such a group. ~ Sandy J. Campbell #2110 .....p.s. please note in your files, I'm a ms, not a mr. Thanks! ************************************************************** From Ric, 'Preciate that, and sorry 'bout the gender mistake. Pat (a Ms. herself) probably figured that Sandy Campbell was Alexander Campbell (a guid Scots name). Assumption is the mother of all screw ups. ================================================================ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:51:54 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: 1937 radio Dr. Dangelo: Your discussion of the state of radio technology in 1937 was very interesting. Although it may not specifically relate to the Amelia Earhart search, I and perhaps others in the forum, would be interested to know more about the RCA RAK-6 regenerative longwave receiver. I would have expected anything build, even before 1941, to be a superhet. Perhaps if you wanted a small, relatively simple receiver... I wonder what its intended application was? What sort of construction is it and what does it look like? What tube, or tubes, are used? You've certainly recieved signals from some pretty distant places. What do you use for an antenna? I suppose these are rather high powered transmitters you've heard. CW, I presume, although I guess signals above 10 kilocycles could be voice modulated. Now that you've broken the ice, we'll hope to hear more from you! Vern Klein ************************************************************* From Ric But please send your reply directly to Vern. We need to keep the forum on topic. Thanks. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:02:10 EST From: Stu Subject: Re: gotta share this Yes, that is very interesting, but what about her independent nature. Isn't it possible that what happened to her is placed among the ironies with celebrities today? She flew because she had a passion for aviation, but when she was trying to reach Howland she freaked out, couldn't work the radio, crashed. She knew she would probably be rescued, but what if she didn't want to be? She was tired of being in the public eye. The passion was robbed by GP and her being on a pedastal. Her whole life she sacrificed what she felt in her heart and put it aside to pursue a career, but the crash dramatically changed her. Her mystery lies in our individual imagination. *************************************************************** From Ric The question of why the mystery of Earhart's disappearance has so captivated the public imagination is a fascinating subject, but is not within the scope of this forum. However, Amelia's conduct during the final hours of the flight is of some interest as we try to figure out what happened after radio contact was lost. The evidence that we have from the Itasca's radio logs does not bear out the characterization that she "freaked out." Although there were certainly radio problems, some of which appear to be the result of her less-than-adequate understanding of the equipment, Amelia seems to have behaved very professionally during the crisis and adhered closely to her set transmission schedule right up to the time she changed frequencies and Itasca stopped hearing her. If anyone freaked out it was the Coast Guard who sent messages to her in morse code despite her requests that all communication be by voice; who based their radio schedule on local time despite Earhart's specification that she would use Greenwhich time; who tried to contact her on 3105 Kc at a time when she was supposed to be contacting them, thereby blocking any transmission she may have made; who knew she had enough fuel to last until noon but abandoned their station at Howland Isand at 10:40 based upon their conviction that she was already down at sea, etc., etc. The available evidence strongly suggests that Earhart and Noonan did everything they could to find Howland Island and, failing that, took the most rational course possible to assure that they would reach land, and, having succeeded in that, made every attempt to encourage rescue. There is no evidence that AE was "tired of being in the public eye." Quite the contrary. Nor is there any evidence that her relationship with GP was anything other than a happy, if somewhat unusual for the 1930s, business partnership marriage. Ric ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:30:26 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: 1937 radios I spent some time as just a dumb back-ender on an aircraft with really old radios. I also used some vintage WWII radios on the ground when we were at the end of the food chain. (Nothing like the sound of HF static in the morning) I am not a radio expert. However I can give an end-users perspective. I got a few opportunities to listen to RO instructors "explain" to new radio guys how to use the old radios. First crystal controlled transmitters. They were good for the era but no two were exactly alike. They got you pretty close. Good enough if you were sitting in a rocker and had a big set that allowed you to fine-tune the station with the second dial. Works ok in an aircraft if you're close to the receiver. But at extreme range the slight differences causes the station to drift in and out. Weather, slight differences in each crystal, atmospherics, and temperature all contribute to signal drift. One instructor explained that the receiver should just sit on the primary freq. and let the message drift in and out. He figured you'd catch more of the message that way then being behind by chasing the signal drift. The real problem is the receiver. The receivers were not crystal set frequencies. They were manually tuned. Some of the guys who use to "sit rack" for 8 hours a day chasing faint signals got pretty good at it. They could follow the drift. But for most military operators (like an average ship board operator) chasing the signal as it drifts up and down results in the operator loosing a weak signal. I'm guessing that the radio operator on the Ithaca was doing his best and chasing EA's signal as it drifted. Not saying he was right or wrong. Just commenting on the dangers of chasing a freq. Bouncing around they skies they were probably doing the same with their set. As for EA's receiver. I've seen HF operators get mad because someone put a coffee mug down hard next to their set. Such rude language. That was before computers let you automatically lock on to a signal. A single dial receiver must have been a bear to fine tune aloft. When we flew and were talking to a faint station I'd call up the RO every 20 or 30 minutes and ask him to tweak the receivers. When we had a faint signal from a mid-air emergency he was working the signal constantly trying to hold on to it. Bottom line. Until the advent of transistors and computers long range radio communications was more of an art then a science. The hash marks we'd put on a freq. from yesterday were a starting point, not a sure thing. I only listened to airborne radios for 4 years and never got it totally right. I think AE and the Itasca operator did pretty good considering the circumstances. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric Thanks Warren. Interesting perspective. As a pilot brought up on nice clean VHF, I have been appalled when sailing and flying the Pacific to learn what an iffy, sometime thing HF radio still is. ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:34:44 EST From: Don Jordan Subject: 1937 radios I have never seen a 1937 aircraft radio, but I have some information that might be helpful. Being a pilot, I decided to buy an old airplane. Big mistake...I flew it with the original 1950's aircraft radio. I'm sure there are many others who are familiar with this type of radio, but I will tell you how it worked anyway. I think Amelia's radio operated much the same. It was a tube type (no transisters then) crystal controlled transmitter, but had a variable tuner for receiving. I had several crystals in it for the local area and could only transmit on those frequencies. I could, however, receive on all freqs. When I wanted to talk to the tower, I would first turn the transmitter dial to the desired frequency. The transmitter was always on frequency because it was crystal controlled. Then I had to adjust the receiver to the same freq. This was done by turning the control knob on the radio to "CAL" for calibrate. When I did that, it generated a side tone in the radio on that frequency. All I had to do was listen for the tone in the earphones as I rotated the receiver knob. It was easy to do, even in flight. You didn't even had to look at the receiver dial. Just listen for the tone. One thing I like to do with it was rotate the receiver knob fast in both directions to "scan" for other traffic. Perhaps Amelia's radio was similar to this one. If so, she could have "scanned" all frequencies also. I had trouble with it once, where the tone was not quite on frequency and I had to turn the receiver knob a little more to receive the tower clearly. When I was on the ground 1 4 mile from the tower, it was no problem. But in flight, I could transmit, but not receive until I fiddled with the knob a little. Didn't she ask for a long count once? I wonder if Amelia had the same type system? If so, she could have had the same problem. Something else...I couldn't listen to the radio without the engine running because the power drain was so great. The generator would not kick in until the engine was at about 1700 RPM. I just thought some in this Forum might like to know how the older radios worked. Don Jordan (#2109) ************************************************************** From Vern Klein Frank: Yes, my questions are well answered. Thank you! A 3-inch dial with several bands and a lot of numbers could have been pretty confusing to Amelia. A tuning head remote from the receiver and a speedometer cable! I'm surprised anyone ever found a signal other than something almost continuously on the air. I think it must have been a bit before my time but somehow I'm aware that a similar sort of thing was once done with automobile radio recievers. I guess this is a bit off topic. I'll quit flogging this one! Vern ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:43:25 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Label Fragment Amanda, Re: Canned ripe banana as a baking ingredient. I presume that a number of producers of canned products offer canned bananas to bakeries, etc. They're just not found on shelf of the local supermarket. If this is the case, maybe we have to check everybody in the fruit canning business in the hope of learning who may have been canning bananas in the 30s. A slim chance of it leading to anything but then all we have are slim chances! Vern ************************************************************* From Ric According to Bob Moore, chairman of the International Banana Association (yes, Virginia, there is an IBA), canned bananas were produced in the 1930s for the American, and probably other, markets principally by Honduran banana growers. With the advent of better shipping which permitted the transport of fresh bananas, canning fell out of practice. Amanda, do you know if banana canning is still done for the baking industry? ================================================================ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:01:24 EST From: Barbara Wiley Subject: Re: Earhart's Sister Dead Too bad Muriel has died. No, interest in Amelia not slipping, as evidenced by your success in generating such interest with TIGHAR, of course, you've had the media coverage which is the key to success. To chronical the plethora of devotion for these 61 years for Amelia and Noonan by so many, at all levels of involvement is the next research task. ************************************************************** From Ric Actually, it's t'other way 'round. Success is the key to media coverage. These days, everyone is clamoring for the attention of the cameras and, with a zillion cable channels to fill, the cameras are clamoring for stories to tell. But to attract the attention of the high-credibility media (network television, the big cable channels, major newspapers, LIFE magazine, etc.), you must pass the very close scrutiny of very tough editors. TIGHAR has received high credibility media coverage because our researcher/members have achieved high credibility results. Someday, after the truth about the Earhart disappearance has been conclusively established, it would be fun, and perhaps instructive, to chronicle how a missing aircraft turned into a national hobby. But that's not the next research task. First we have to find Amelia. Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:41:40 EST From: Amanda Dunham Subject: Come Mr. Tally Man Tally Me Banana Nowadays, if Sara Lee, Pepperidge Farm, or Jello want to make banana bread, cream pie, or pudding, they either buy fresh or use dried banana chips and rehydrate them. Your corner bakery and people at home have no need for canned anymore, they can buy fresh. (My 1928 cookbook expects the home baker to try for fresh, and use canned as a substitute.) Canned banana qualifies as a baking ingredient, but baking isn't considered its first use. Like applesauce, it's food by itself, that can be an ingredient in something else. Even if canned banana had been available wholesale to bakeries, the cans would have been much to big for Earhart's purposes. Researching this from a baking perspective is a dead end. Please keep in mind that the term "canning" isn't just for food preserved in a tin can; food preserved in glass jars is also consider "canned." The term refers to the process, not necessarily the container. Also keep in mind that tin cans require a can opener, glass jars just require strong wrists. Canned banana *is* found on the shelf of the local supermarket, y'all are just in the wrong aisle. Stop thinking Del Monte and start thinking Gerber. Baby food is usually packaged at just a few ounces. Come to think of it, Earhart flew the autogiro for Beech Nut. Maybe GP cut a deal of some sort. If the flight had been successful: "Beech Nut Brand Foods Were the World Flight's Rations" Daylight come an me wan go home Amanda **************************************************************** From Ric Good information! Thanks Amanda. We're working on an article about the can label for the next TIGHAR Tracks. Right now I'm off to the store to check out the baby food section. Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:45:03 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Historians I'm 75 years old and green with envy. I can say this! When I opened the sample issue and saw the pictures of "The Team," I thought... It looks to me like a bunch of, largely old codgers, having a hell of a lota fun spending other peoples money! And there's nothing wrong with that. You're doing a hell of a good job of it! ************************************************************* From Ric Well, we weren't old codgers when we started this. Last time out we were laughing about how many of us now need reading glasses. Of course, I'm still just a kid. I turned fifty last December. Your reference to "other people's money" provides me with an opportunity to clear up some common misconceptions about how TIGHAR's work is funded. Like any business, we deliver a product for a price. Our product is sound historical research. To support our work, those who value that product part with their hard-earned dollars which then become TIGHAR's hard-earned dollars. We never use other people's money. We only use TIGHAR's money. When U.S. citizens give money to TIGHAR they get the added benefit of being able to use it as a tax-deductible charitable contribution, just like the money they give to United Way or the Smithsonian Institution. Like those organizations, TIGHAR is recognized as a Public Charity, which means simply that our base of support is very broad and we do not get a significant portion of our funding from any single source. TIGHAR is a tax exempt organization under Section 501 (c) (3) of the IRS code. That means that the federal government has recognized that what we do is in the public interest and does not make us pay tax on the money that comes in to support our work. We, of course, do pay all the usual taxes on payroll. Also, if we bring in money that is not directly related to our "exempt purpose" (for example, if we opened The TIGHAR Saloon) we would have to pay taxes on that "unrelated business income." Like all "nonprofit" organizations, TIGHAR can legally make all the profit it is able to make. What it can not do is distribute those profits. There can be no shareholders or investors, no dividends and no profit-sharing. It all gets plowed back into the organization and every year, just like any other business, we have to file a tax return with the IRS. The difference is, our tax return is public information. End of sermon. The ushers will now take up the collection. Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:00:19 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Coaxial Cable In addition to the matter of 10-strand vs 12-strand center conductor, I'm sure you'll also the looking at the compounding of the jacket and insulation layers. I've never seen rubber used in the dielectric (between braid and center conductor) of coaxial cable. I suppose there would not have been a better choice in the 30s. That rubber-like material may be compounded to have the lowest possible losses at radio frequencies, and may have varied from one manufacturer to another. I assume there are no markings visible on the jacket. So, how would a length of coaxial cable happen to be on Nikumaroro? It seems most likely that it was once installed in an aircraft -- with both ends secured with screw-type connectors. The connectors are still there and in good condition. It seems unlikely that it simply washed ashore when an aircraft broke up in the ocean. For the cable to have got free and washed ashore, it seems there would be more aircraft debris than is in evidence. Can the cable be related to Earhart and Noonan? Was the Electra on the reef and being cannibalized for whatever was useful? Did someone unscrew the connectors and remove the cable? For what purpose? If one wanted something like a "rope," there must have been a lot of better choices. In their situation, they would cartainly have wished for some means to communicate -- to signal their location. They would try to use the radio transmitter. If the aircraft is in a lot of water, (WONT HOLD WITH US MUCH LONGER...ABOVE WATER... SHUT OFF) this may not have been possible. They shut off the radio equipment to save it. I assume there were batteries on the Electra. Maybe they dragged stuff to shore and hoped to dry it out enough to get it operational. They would have needed the cable with its connectors to hook it up to whatever they hoped to use for an antenna. If this sort thing did take place, where is the rest of the radio gear? Might it have been found and carried away as something believed to be of value, whereas the length of cable was not regarded as being of much value? If site of the bones, campfire, and other artifacts removed about 1940 is the place where Earhart and Noonan perished, it seems surprising that so very few metallic objects are to be found there now. This may be telling us that a lot of stuff has been spirited away in one way or another. Maybe even radio gear. ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:07:21 EST From: Rebecca Little Subject: Label Fragment Amanda, That's interesting about the possibility of the banana and tomato juice being used to help remedy stomach trouble. I hadn't thought of that--I thought they had those foods in their rations because they had a high nutritional content and possibly because they kept well. Funny--you never know how that info you pick up here and there will come in handy. That's one of the things that keeps life interesting, right? Rebecca Little, TIGHAR #Who Knows *************************************************************** From Marty Joy For what it's worth, There are people that collect labels, not only bananas, but everything under the sun. There are those that actually collect fresh banana labels. I have tried, in my limited way , to research the world of collectors as it pertains to labels of the 1930's with limited success. I know,however, that there are those who collect produce labels, perhaps someone with more computer skills than I, can contact them. Keep up the good work SEMPER FI Marty Joy TIGHAR ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:10:28 EST From: Rebecca Little Subject: Historians All I want to add something to what Sandy wrote (If it's OK--I know we're not supposed to talk about AE's place in history). I agree wholeheartedly with her statement that we are historians. Thing is, you would not believe the number of people that I've told about this project who have made a face and said something to the effect of "Yuck, how morbid." But it isn't morbid--it's all a part of history. It's what Paul Harvey calls "the rest of the story." I like what you all are doing and am glad to be a part of it, though sort of indirectly. Thanks for your time... Rebecca Little ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:15:57 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Lady Be Good I know that the primary focus of TIGHAR is now on AE. However in line with the overall charter of TIGHAR I would like to suggest that you add a link to the "Lady Be Good" story. There are several similarities in these events that may prove insightful. They both became lost because of mistakes in flight planning. Both had errors in radio & DF usage. The LBG story also provides some other insights. Planes & pilots fly a lot further then skeptic think they should. But as one flight instructor commented "Airplanes fly because of Bernoulli not Marconi." They both possibly landed beyond where the initial search efforts would have placed them. The LBG story also is an excellent example of how people survive quite a while after a crash despite the odds. By every reckoning the "Lady Be Good" and her crew should never have been found. However by rare chance and determined effort, the fate of the crew was finally uncovered. It serves as an example of how a determined research effort can pay off. Just a suggestion. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric Some interesting parallels. Unfortunately the server will not pass along direct links, but for those who would like to check out the site, the URL is http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/lbg.htm ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:32:20 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Fuel Range Just a minor comment on the range that AE could have flown after the last transmission. At 02:45 Itasca's log time AE had 724 of 1,100-lbs. left. That was 14 hours and 15 min. into the flight. Last transmission received was about 6 hours later. 0843 Itasca's time. About 20 hours into the flight. Reviewing the TIGHAR posting I noted something I missed the first time through. Kelly Johnson did the fuel management tables that show that the aircraft should have had just over 24 hours of endurance. The aircraft therefor had around 4 hours flying time left when radio contact was lost. Their airspeed would have been some where between 191 and 212 mph. So they had about 800 miles of range left. It was mid morning so there was no rush to ditch into the sea. Now how accurate were the fuel tables? Well if you've been around flying for a while you'd have heard about Kelly Johnson. The man was a legend. He's probably best known for building the U-2 and SR-71. I don't think you'll find any aeronautical engineer in the world that would say Kelly made a math error with regards to an aircraft's performance. If Kelly said an aircraft had 4 hours fuel left you can take that to the bank. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric I agree that Johnson's figures were probably good. He flew with AE in her airplane prior to the first attempt specifically to work out numbers for that particular machine. However, as most TIGHAR members could tell you Warren, the Electra's economical cruise speed was 150 mph (130 kts). ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:04:58 EST From: Barbara Wiley Subject: Preponderance of evidence Ric what about the "overwhelming preponderance" of evidence, albeit circumstantial, after all, this would be deemed a "civil case". Barbara *************************************************************** From Ric I'm not sure I follow you, Barb. What evidence are you referring to? Until we come up with an eyewitness to the end of the flight, or a videotape of the landing, any evidence in the Earhart case is going to be circumstantial. The question is the credibility of the evidence. We're not trying the Earhart case in court, civil or criminal. The truth does not depend upon the opinion of a jury, even if you call the general public the ultimate jury. Juries are simply a way of reaching a consensus when a decision of some kind is necessary. We hope that most of the time they also arrive at the truth. For a long time virtually everyone thought that the sun revolved round the Earth. Today, supposedly one in four Americans does not believe that humans descended from primates. Each of us has to act as his or her own jury in assesssing the truth, whether about Earhart's fate or any other issue. At TIGHAR we use the scientific method because it seems to us to be the most reliable way of arriving at the truth. I really can't argue with others who reach different conclusions by other methods. I can only say that I am aware of no credible evidence that suggests that the aircraft crashed into the sea or was abducted by anybody. Ric ================================================================ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:06:28 EST From: Ann Subject: Label Fragment ...ofcourse bananas of the consistancy of applesauce.For some reason I kept visualising canned bananas in the form of slices such as in fruit cocktail....duh.Thanks to forum member Amanda I now have it clear that canned bananas would be similar to baby food fruits.Thinking back to the early 1950s while living in Japan,as a child,canned bananas were a real treat.I believe my Dad got them in his flight lunch rations(USAF) and then passed them on to the kiddies.Is it assumed that AE brought these from the states or could she have acquired them somewhere enroute?Is it certain that the label is one of USA origins? Just a passing thought. Ann (and I too passed the half century mark in Dec.) ************************************************************* From Ric The canned bananas that were aboard the airplane in March almost certainly came from the States. AE hadn't been anywhwere else. Were the same canned bananas aboard the airplane in July? If they were part of a stash of emergency rations (which seems to have been the case), why not? I had hoped that the use of the word "produce" (as appears on the label fragment) to describe fruit and vegetables was a uniquely American usage but my Aussie sources tell me that it's common there too. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:28:59 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Satellite imagery Clyde: Thanks for the SPOT info. We continue to look into the mass of information on this subject. Our Russian contacts told us they are checking as well. Fortunately, we have access to many "experts" in this area. Unfortunately, this means differences exist over what may or may be useful (surprise, surprise). In any case, we continue to plod along. Of course, we continue to invite expert counsel from the forum to assist us........ ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:29:06 EST From: Frank Lombardo Subject: 1937 radios The loop we see in the photos of Amelia Earhart's Lockheed Electra NR16020 may be a Bendix direction finding Loop. The loop came in seven different models numbered 1 to 7. The version we see on top of the aircraft (a MN-5) is manually operated with a vernier type knob located directly below the loop body in the cockpit. The knob is within easy reach of the crew and has a dial with a compass rose to indicate to the operator the relative bearing of the received "null" of the transmitted signal it's receiver is tuned to at that time. In 1937, all aircraft type radio direction finder loop's homing capabilities operated between the frequencies of 120 to 1600 kc. At that time there were no loops available for use commercially or for the military on any frequencies higher than 1600 kc. There were some high frequency experimental types, but none came into play with the exception of the "bread board" model that was set up on Howland island for the express purpose of assisting Amelia Earhart in finding the Itasca and Howland. It is reported to have operated on frequencies in the medium bands from 2,000 to 10,000 mc. which we know now was not too successful. LTM #1806 ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:33:01 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Preponderance of evidence Up to this point, the discovery of the Gallagher telegrams, the "sister" sextant with Box number, aluminum skin, dado, cats paw, bottle cap, a/c wire, rivet etc. in my mind pushes the case beyong the civil 51/49 preponderance balance. I continue to struggle with why those 3 Colorado planes did not see anything. Oh well, more preposterous things have happened. ************************************************************* From Ric Talk to anyone who does search and rescue from the air. Failing to see a downed airplane on the ground is the rule, not the exception. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:46:09 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Fuel range We figure the aircraft could have had up to 8 hrs of fuel left, enough for a nice Phoenix tour. ************************************************************** From Warren Ouch! I thought I was on solid ground with the airspeeds. I was feeling pretty good about having dug up a 1939 edition of Janes Aircraft. A warning to other researchers. Pay your money and subscribe to TIGHAR. The 1939 version of Janes gives you the impression that the figures for the "upgraded" version of the Electra (like that flown by AE) was the same as the Model 12. The Aircraft YearBook for 1939 published by the Aeronautical Chamber of Commerce of America also gives some figures. The economical cruse altitude for the Electra is rated at 14,000 ft and the speeds I think were also slightly off (above 150 mph). I was going to forward part of the 1939 Aircraft YearBook that described Western Electric's new aircraft transmitter (22 lbs. 15 watts, freqs between 2800 and 6044 kilocycles) but this is probably another case of mistaken identity. As a "new guy" I didn't find anything online that gave the full technical specs of the aircraft and equipment. The local area here (Eglin AFB, Hurlburt Field, Pensacola NAS) is a pretty good location for tracking down old pilots and books. Old pilots are amazingly good at remembering the exact technical specifications of the equipment they used, even if they do forget how many times they told you that war story. I must also regrettably report that AE fate has a limited following among old combat veterans. I won't dwell on the whys. However when I've tried to flush out what happened in some more recent incidents I've found that asking technical questions is a better approach. They may not choose to talk about the larger picture about events but pilots generally will eagerly help you research technical questions. So that I don't ask the wrong questions or research the wrong piece of equipment could TIGHAR Tracks add a one-page list of the technical specifications in some future addition? I know that you must be tired of suffering fools and eager amateurs but we all have to start somewhere. Warren *************************************************************** From Ric All is forgiven. A page of specs on NR16020 on our website would be a good idea. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:56:35 EST From: Daniel Onofrey Subject: Metal detectors How feasible would it be to search the island and the reef (or even surrounding waters) with some heavy-duty metal detectors? Such a scheme would doubtless reveal any and all latent metal fragments, airplane or otherwise in origin. Daniel C. Onofrey. *************************************************************** From Ric We use hand-held metal detectors all the time. We're now investigating the possible use of a "heavy-duty" unit that could cover a much larger area, but remember, the island has lots and lots of metal debris from its period of habitation. The problem is not finding metal. It's finding the metal you're looking for. ================================================================ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:05:57 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Historians And sound research it is. Hats off to the depth and detail of information you provide in TIGHAR tracks. And if TIGHAR was really interested in beach parties, they would have claimed the Electra had more fuel than anyone realized, and actually lies hidden in underbrush on a remote part of Maui. ************************************************************** From Ric Hmmmm. Maui. Interesting hypothesis...... ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:19:59 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Fuel Range I too, unfortunately, find marginal interest in my circles regarding the fate of AE and FN. However, all you have to do is tell one satellite expert that another satellite expert disagrees with them. Or tell one aircraft expert that the other aircraft expert claims more accurate fuel estimates. Works quite well. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:29:04 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Historians all Lest anyone misinterpret my remarks regarding spending other peoples money, etc. Be assured that I have naught but respect for the professionalism and strict adherence to the scientific method demonstrated by the TIGHAR organization. A professionalism that certainly extends to the conduct of this forum. ... But make no mistake about it folks, they are having a hell of a lota fun! We get to participate in the fun, if only vicariously, in the forum and in the TIGHAR Tracks journal... a thing to be proud of in its own right. I'm glad to have provided an opportunity for Ric to clear up any misunderstandings about TIGHAR financing that may have existed! Vern *************************************************************** From Ric Vern is absolutely right. When this stops being fun we'll stop doing it. It's not IMPORTANT to solve the Earhart mystery. We do feel, however, the the WAY we solve the Earhart mystery can serve as an example of how to seek out the truth. Maybe that's just putting a noble purpose on what is essentially an ego-motivated self indulgence, but I hope not. Anyway, we're hooked on getting to the bottom of this and we need all the help we can get. Enjoy. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:40:27 EST From: Mike Ruiz Subject: Preponderance of evidence Guess I've been talking with too many fly boys here at Langley AFB. None of them would have missed seeing the Electra. Then again, each one I talk to tells me they are the best of the best............ ************************************************************** From Ric This is admittedly off topic, but it has always interested me that in the world of commercial aviation self-deprecation is the accepted, and expected, social standard among pilots, while in the military world braggadocio seems to be condoned and even encouraged. Each, of course, is an act. Everybody pilot secretly thinks he (or she) is the best there is, and everybody is secretly scared that he (or she) is a phoney. Wandering off again into philosophy and social commentary. Sorry. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:51:56 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Coax cables Revisiting the question of how a length of coaxial cable, with screw-on type connectors on each end would have ended up on Gardner Island. The scenario I proposed probably has many flaws. But can anyone imagine how, if the cable was originally installed in an aircraft and secured at both ends, it could have got loose on the island? How but by virtue of someone having unscrewed the connectors. Presumably the objective would have been to remove the cable... for whatever purpose. I suspect the weakest part of my scenario may be the batteries. Were there batteries on the Electra, or did radio equipment operate directly from generators driven by the engines? If there were batteries, where were they located? Could two people have removed them with the aircraft in water on the reef? The whole scenario is probably unlikely because the batteries would not have operated a radio transmitter long enough to justify the effort. Maybe Earhart and Noonan would not have realized that. Maybe it was the ONLY thing they could think of. You grasp at a straw when that's all there is. **************************************************************** From Ric The cables were found in the rubble of what was once the island carpenter shop. Clearly, they were either purchased and never used as intended (for what pupose is hard to imagine), or they were employed in their original use as aircraft radio cables and were disconnected by hand and brought to the village from somewhere else. Assuming the latter scenario, they either came from somewhere else on Nikumaroro, or from some other island. Earhart's radios operated off batteries (main and aux) that were charged off an engine-driven generator. Dismountng the various components of the radios (transmitter, receiver, dynamotor, batteries, antennas, and assorted cables) for re-assembly on land seems rather pointless with no means of recharging the batteries once the system was removed from the airplane. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:55:23 EST From: Don Neumann Subject: Noonan's Navigation new subscriber....first time participator. in all the reading i've done on earhart (admittedly not exhaustive), i can't recall reading any discussion about the effect (if any) on the electra's navigational instruments caused byany possible anomalies created by magnetic changes occasioned by crossing the equitorial line. one of the versions i read contains a quote form "reports" that some residents on the island of tabiteuea (gilbert chain) "heard" her plane passing near the island. if true, it would seem noonan had her dead-on for landfall at howland & whatever went wrong occurred within the last 600 miles (or so) of the flight, which included her crossing the "line". since noonanhad completed 18 successful pacific crossings with pan-am by 1936 (he was chief navigator on the very first flight in 1935 & literally "wrote-the-book" on charting the pacific airways for pan-am) & had already navigated the electra 3 4's of the way around the globe; it just doesn't seem reasonablehe would 'screw-up" so close to the objective. hung-over or stone-cold sober, it seems highly unlikely he would have 'short-cut" any of the navigational rules procedures he developed over all those years & had consistently followed throughout his career, especially when he was fully aware their very lives depended upon the accuracy of his calculations. the phoenix chain was the most logical alternative landfall, once he was convinced they'd "missed" howland since it was closer than doubling back to the gilberts & much simpler navagationally as all they had to do was head into the morning sun on the LOP he had already charted. thanks for bearing with me don n. ********************************************************* From Ric Couldn't have said it better myself. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:02:24 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Label Fragment Suppose this label is from a Honduran product produced for the American market. The label may have been printed in Honduras and applied to the can for shipment to the states. That would make a study of the ink and printin process of very definite interest. There might really be something unique about it. We need to find someone with the expertise and necessary instrumentation who is also very much interested in the Earhart mystery. Someone interested enough to donate some time and effort to the cause. If something of this nature should become critical, I might just possibly be able to find some help and at no cost. I THINK I could get some chromatograph work done on a small sample. Someone else would have to do the evaluation to say what the chemical composition had to tell us. Vern ************************************************************* From Ric We have a forensic anthopologist working on the bone info. She is well- connected in the forensic document analysis world and is looking for the right expert to work on the can lable. I need to let her see who she can find before I parcel out the work elsewhere. So, for now, we'll sit tight. Thanks. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:11:52 EST From: Vern Klein Subject: Label Fragment Still thinking about that Label fragment and the lettering... Maybe it said something like: "MUY GRANDE BANANA GROWER PRODUCE" It seems to me that ain't no good english. But I'm sure no expert. I would expect "GROWER'S" making it possesive. Does this suggest that the lettering was done by non-english speaking people? Honduran banana canners? Looking on the shelves, one sees: Libby's, Campbell's, Hunt's and Uncle Ben's, etc. But you also see: "Folgers" (no apostrophe) and it's The "Folger Coffee Co." Inconsistant. Would it have been so in the 30s? We've become a lot more sloppy in language usage than we were 60 years ago. If that label could be tied to a Honduran source, it would appear to date it in the 1930s, not much more recent. That would be pretty significant. Vern ************************************************************* More from Vern had no sooner hit the "send" button when I remembered that I have a very old coffee can in the basement. It was a sure enough 16-ounce pound and was marked 97 cents! Now that's an OLD coffee can. It says: "FOLGER'S" I rest my case. Vern *************************************************************** From Ric I disagree. First, I don't think we can assume that the missing letter is G. Second, if it is G, the label may have said something like INDEPENDENT GROWER PRODUCE. Insisting upon the a possesive form and then ascribing it's absence to a non-English speaking source is not, in my view, justified. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:15:15 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Line of Position I think that the natural bias for the crew would have been to put the navigator facing the estimated location of the island. The pilot's vision would have been slightly limited for looking down. And only AE could see well off the starboard side of the aircraft. I seem to remember that the Plexiglas window on the side of Electra used by Noonan was on the port side (left). To take the dawn navigation shot Noonan would have needed the aircraft to turn south for a few minutes. Even assuming that they were originally heading straight for the island, this maneuver would have placed them slightly south of course. They would have compensated by heading slightly East North East after the maneuver. This would have limited Noonan's ability to see the island below or off the starboard side if they were heading straight towards it. AE's job was to fly first, use the radio second and look third. Noonan was the navigator and the one who was supposes to have time to spot the island. They may have flown very close to the island and still missed it because Noonan's window was facing the wrong way. When they were unsure of their position the tendency should have been to fly long legs from North to South with Noonan looking out the window to the East. Then a wider turn to the East and a South to North run that expected less observation from AE out the starboard side of the aircraft. (That maneuvers would just be primarily to reposition the aircraft for another run to the south with Noonan as the primary observer.) North for a while then a short jog to the East (not trusting AE's limited ability to see to starboard and fly at the same time) followed by another run South with a wider visual search pattern out the port side by Noonan. Just a thought. Warren PS:For those interested in Line of Position for us dummies I recommend the book "Longitude". (Can't tell you the authors name because a sailor borrowed it and hasn't returned it yet) I was reading the book only two months ago. It's about how for centuries ships knew they were far enough East or West for their chosen port but were forced to sail north and south to find it. An accurate sea-going clock finally solved the dilemma. Ironic. Same problem, different era. ************************************************************** From Ric Anybody want to comment on this? I'll just say that there were windows on both sides of the cabin and that Noonan spent much, if not most, of his time in the cockpit. As a general caution I'll point out that anytime you find yourself using the phrase "would have" in an investigation like this, it's well to remember that you're really saying, "I have no idea what really happened but I'm guessing that..." Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:20:26 EST From: Per Axelsson Subject: moving the aircraft Question; If AE had fuel left and tires weren't trashed, then would it be a problem to taxi the plane away from the waterline when the water was rising? If she possibly did taxi the plane towards the treeline could that be the explanation why the plane ended where it did? Not much wind would be needed to turn the plane over and shoving it into the forrest. Then one might wonder why she didn't stay by the plane, but i should think it was a LOT warmer inside the aircraft then outside and if she was low on water...well. There has also been a lot of talk about AE's radio and the belly antenna. I remember watching a television show where TIGHAR recovered an artifact that possibly was from the belly of the aircraft. On that piece of fuselage skin there was a tear along a line which suddenly made a turn around something reinforced. I beleive it was concluded that it was the area where the belly antenna was positioned. If the antenna wasn't there, was it just the mount that reinforced that particular area? Kind regards: Per Axelsson *************************************************************** From Ric The theory you're remembering about the jog in the tear possibly being attributable to the antenna reinforcement has been shown to be not valid. The antenna was not mounted on the centerline as we once thought. ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:26:45 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Mapping needs Here's another research need. During last year's Niku III expedition we collected a great deal of GPS (Global Positioning System) data on Nikumaroro. We took readings that, when processed, will provide important mapping information about where we searched and where stuff was found. Those data have not yet been processed. We need somone who is GIS facile to turn our raw data into useful mapping info. If you don't know what GIS facile means, then you ain't GIS facile. Any takers? Ric ================================================================ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:26:53 EST From: Ric Gillespie Subject: Tracking Noonan Here's some genealogical research which needs doing if anyone wants to tackle it. We need to find a living blood relation of Fred Noonan in the female line so that we can do DNA comparisons if we can rediscover the bones found on Nikumaroro in 1940, or if we find more bones there. Here's a possible starting place. Richard Noonan, who has a film production company in California (phone 818 760-4442), says that his father Thomas Francis Noonan (born in Bayonne city, NJ in 1894) claimed that Fred Noonan was his cousin. His father, also Thomas Francis, was born in Jersey City in 1864 and had several brothers and sisters. If Fred was the child of one of them, the age would be about right. Fred was born in 1893, reportedly in Chicago. If we can find out who Fred's mother or sister was, and follow that female line to a living person, we'll have the source of mitochondrial DNA we may need. Amelia is no problem. We know her sister's daughter. Any takers? Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:24:28 EST From: Frank Lombardo Subject: coax cable How about this scenario? Prior to taking off from Gardner, remove all equipment from aircraft that can be removed by hand as to lighten aircraft in an effort to conserve fuel for flight. If this cable was used as a jumper between receivers as to utilize one antenna for both, or the jumper used between the 13CB tansmitter and the 20BA receiver. This cable would have been unquestionably removed and discarded. The cable could have been a spare and stored somewhere on the aircraft. *************************************************************** From Ric That still doesn't get the cable to the village that wasn't there yet when the airplane disappeared. At some point, somebody has to pick it up and take it home. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:28:07 EST From: Frank Lombardo Subject: Preponderence of evidence I'm glad youse guys didn't include radio technicians in your discriptions LTM #1806 ************************************************************** From Fred Madio I agree with Ric. Over the years I've been involved in several search-and-rescue "missions' using aircraft as the observation platform, and it can be almost impossible sometimes to see anything the size of an aircraft from the air --- even at 1,000 ft. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:36:28 EST From: James Murphy Subject: Noonan's navigation My first time writing. It seems to me that everyone is grasping at straws or just want to believe that Amelia and Fred were on this island. Mister Noonan's Navigation skills I believe were questioned more than once. If anyone's skills should be questioned it should to be Amelia's flying skills. I know she had a few accidents on landings and takeoffs. I believe the plane is thought to have been washed off the reef into deeper water. It would seem to me that this has to be proved one way or the other. Instead of spending money to prove that a label came from a certain year, which will just leave more questions. Wouldn't it make more sense to use all the money collected to search the deep water off the reef. Until that is done I can't really believe a serious search is going on. Thank You James Murphy ************************************************************** From Ric Your skepticism is healthy, but you need to check your facts. I'd be interested to know what contemporaneous written source questioned Noonan's navigation skills. Also, the plane is not now thought to have most probably washed off the reef into deep water. I'll leave it to other forum members to attest to whether or not a serious search is going on. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:41:09 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: metal detectors A US Navy P-3 Orion aircraft would be a nice choice. But talking the USN into a "training mission" might be a challenge. Right? Wrong? *************************************************************** From Ric Wrong. P-3s look for magnetic anomalies, like big ol' submarines. We have an essentially non-magnetic target that is infinitely smaller than a submarine. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:43:29 EST From: Fred Madio Subject: coax cables Ric, any evidence on the connectors that something like a pair of pliers was used to undo the connection? ************************************************************** From Ric Nope. The connectors have knurled nuts designed to be turned by hand. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:18:59 EST From: Paul Chattey Subject: radios Could you say some more about your sense that it was pointless to pull the radios out? Your list of components is a long one and I don't know how much work would be involved to dismount all that gear. Not being able to recharge the batteries is a drawback ...but the radio was also definite link to the outside and that alone could have been a powerful motivator. Downed bush pilots in Alaska usually stayed with their aircraft, when they could, and used the radios. Also, I think it is usually possible to receive after the ability to transmit is lost a working radio might not have been such a burden. Paul *************************************************************** From Ric I'm going to ask our radio guru, Frank Lombardo, to comment on the complexities of removing the radios and setting them up on shore. *************************************************************** From Dick Strippel Hi, Get in touch with an older ham to get the real scoop on analog-tuned recievers. Meanwhile, if you want tech stuff on AE's radio suite, I'd be glad to send it to you you. PLEASE LET ME KNOW YOUR SNAIL MAIL ADDRESS. I go to a nickel- a-sheet Xerox place, so please mulyiply that by the number of sheets you receive and ADD POSTAGE TO DETERMINE YOUR REMITTANCE TO ME THANX-- DICK, not RIC *************************************************************** From Ric Snail mail address is: TIGHAR 2812 Fawkes Drive Wilmington, DE 19808 We'll be happy to reimburse your copying and postage costs, but don't send me undocumented opinion about what radios were in the airplane. I've seen lots of that stuff. The Bureau of Air Commerce inspection report for May 19, 1937 (when the airplane came out of repair at Burbank) does not, unfortunately, list the radios. The November 27, 1936 inspection report lists radios but predates the preparations for the first world flight attempt, not to mention the second. We've seen the receipts for the original purchase of radios for the airplane, we've seen Joe Gurr's letter to Fred Goerner, we know about Fred Hooven's Radio Compass that was installed then removed, we've seen numerous photos of the cockpit showing various radio set ups. If you can provide solid documentation of what was aboard that airplane when it left Miami - bless you. Ric ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:24:52 EST From: Dick Strippel Subject: Historians all > I had to put a label on what we do, I'd say that ... AS A PUBLISHED AUTHOR- I WOULD DISAGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT. DOES THAT MEAN THAT SOME CLOWN WHO GETS A PHd IN PHILOSOPHY IS A PHILOSOPHER ??? ************************************************************** From Ric Interesting point Dick. So who is a philospopher? Someone who is aknowledged to be a philosopher by a published author? ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:32:19 EST From: Warren Schilling Subject: Line of Position Aggg! I was hoping that you hadn't posted my last message yet. Messed up again. Don't mind me I 'm just here for comic relief folks. I got a book that clearly shows that there was no window on the starboard side of the aircraft so I fired off an email with a theory. At lunchtime today I get a chance to go by a different library. Different book. There it was bigger then life. A cut away drawing of the aircraft with Noonans navigator station and his window on the starboard side of the aircraft. After banging my head on the bookrack for a few minutes I go back to work. I figured I'll try to leave a bit early so I can send an e-mail telling Rick not to post my last message. Every time I head for the door some one stops me with a problem. Too late. Bottom line. Another bad theory gone to it's watery grave. Warren <;) PS: This is the most frustrating topic I've ever looked into. Book after book seems to have inaccuracies. I'm still interested but will in the future limit any mail to what I personally know or write the item in the form of a question. *************************************************************** From Ric You're all right Warren. This is, indeed, a very dificult and frustrating subject. There is a reason that Amelia has stayed lost for 61 years. Most of what "everybody knows" about the case is wrong. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:38:14 EST From: Charles Sivert Subject: Air Classics The April 1998 issue of "Air Classics" has an article titled "FATE:KNOWN", purporting to solve the mystery of Amelia's disappearance. Author is Rollin C. Reineck, who claims FDR knew what happened to Amelia and that the logs of the ship Itasca were altered before release to the public. Also claims "mystery" surrounding her disappearance was an effort to save her reputation as a pilot. ************************************************************ From Ric And a 1995 episode of Star Trek: Voyager showed that she was really captured by space aliens. ================================================================ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:42:23 EST From: Sandy Campbell Subject: Label Fragment Ric, In regard to the label fragment and canned banana